Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on October 09, 2001, 03:50:00 PM
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Just an idle thought..
Pakistan's military, particularly the officer corps; has a definite Pro-Taliban bent.
As the war escalates, unrest in Pakistan is increasing. It's only a matter of time till the Police are unable (or unwilling) to control the rioting, and the Army is called in.
When that happens, what will the Pakistan Army do?
Question: Who controls Pakistans Nukes? Where are they? Who's guarding them? What type of delivery systems do they have?
Ruh roh.
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Highly doubt they are long range ballistic missles capable of reaching the US.
I suppose they could launch them into Afghanistan, maybe they'll take out Bin Laden with the Taliban and that part of the conflict is history...
-SW
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It has to go without saying that somewhere in a dark place is a full attack plan to take out those weapons. I bet they are as well tracked and targeted as anyting in Afganistan.
Charon
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Move to disagree there Hang. Pakistan's military has the opposite bend. They are vehemenantly anti-Islamic Fundamentalist and have wished for years they could go into Pakistans northern border to wipe out the Taliban's interference in the region.
The Taliban has been grabbing land up there under thier noses for years now. And just look at the Kashmir area to know what they think of subtle land grabs by neighbours.
Problem is there is a large segment of people and govermental influence in the country for the Taliban. This has been a pain in their bellybutton for awhile now- probably one of the reasons they are enjoying siding with the US. Now they have an excuse to dispose of annoying Islamic Clerics and protesters and refugees who have dispersed into Pakistan itself from the border.
Typically Pakistan's military goverment hates competition for power...
Sorrow
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i studied them a bit in my nuclear technologies class. the best thing they have going from what i recall is an intermediate range icbm with a range of about 2000 kilometers.
in other words, if they launched from islamabad, they could barely hit the southern tip of india...maybe not even that.
i knew the pakistanis had skipped the (archaic processing methods)plutonium bomb stage and were working in quite advanced ways with boosted uranium at about 40 kilotons(maybe in the 30s) but i was shocked to find out recently that they might have a hydrogen bomb! i don't know if that's true or not , i'm pretty sure india's tests failed, but...
pu239 and ur235 bombs are ugly at a few dozen kilotons, but a hydrogen bomb at a few dozen megatons is a friggin nightmare hell on earth. seriously - a plutonium bomb make take out downtown manhatten, but a hydrogen bomb would kill people in new jersey and all 5 burroughs too.
scary toejam...this ain't your grandad's nukes, it's a real nightmare. hydrogen bombs work from fusion rather than fission (though fissile materials start the reaction blah blah blah)- they work like a small star for a split second releasing unimaginable energy.
it's squealing stupid to even have them laying around - i've been a proponent of disarmament for ages. they would spell the end of us if enough of em got loose and right now there are literally tens of thousands of em sitting around getting old. i don't think we fully realize what we've been playing with.
the universe is constantly in upheaval with those forces and we have a nice stable oasis on earth - now we want to bring that kind of energy here and put it at the other end of a human finger?
one word: dinosaurs...
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There was a report on the news last night or the night before, that the Pakistans prez had to sit on two divisional commanders beacuse of their pro Taliban views. Also in the same report, an item that a Pakistan division had fought with the Taliban against the northern guys at one point. I'd be worried about the nukes. No I don't have links.
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What Charon and Sorrow said.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
i studied them a bit in my nuclear technologies class. the best thing they have going from what i recall is an intermediate range icbm with a range of about 2000 kilometers.
There is no such thing as an "intermediate range ICBM"
ICBM----Inter Continental Ballistic Missile
With a range of 2000km, I dont think is too much "intercontinental" ;)
Just nitpicking a bit hehehe.
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Yep.. I just heard that Musharraf has just canned a pair of Generals that were pro-taliban.. and from what I can gather the majority of his military is by and large loyal.. but will it remain so??.. and who's actually sitting on the missile keys?
You do realize our CVBG's are in easy range of Muslim controlled Nukes, as are the bases we are gonna be using up north in the three 'stans'.
The other thing that has me wondering 'WTF!!!' is the reported Eubola outbreak among the border refugee camps..
A virus similar to Ebola has reportedly hit Afghan refugees on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, prompting fears about biological warfare and potential risks to U.S. troops. (stratfor.com)
*shudder* I hope like hell THAT ain't true.
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yes - technically the icbm range starts at 5,500 kilometers and thus the missile i spoke of is in the irbm category but so what.
what a stupid argument to start - no wonder people don't like you.
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Yah.
Lets nuke him.
AM Radio News brief: Big light in sky, slated to appear in Spain. Sonic booms scare camels of minority groups in Bumdiddlyistan and there's hamburger allllll over the highway in Mystic, Conneticut. Good evening; those are the headlines, and now for the rumors behind the news...
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Who needs and ICBM if you can put a boat into NYC harbour with a nuke in it's hull and have some wacco push a red button.
That's what is scaring me... All those missing Ruski warheads...
Broes
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Originally posted by Broes:
All those missing Ruski warheads...
Broes there was a docu on TV about exsactly this missing russian suit-case bombs. Approx 50 are missing, each have a blast energy of 1-100 Kilotons TNT. This dont sound much, if we speak about Megatons (1000000 Kilotons) Bombs.
But its enough to destroy a part of a City, the Horishima Bomb was a 20 Kilotons TNT.
The Bomb have to explode right over a CIty for its full blast radius. Such suit-case bomb fired on ground have only 1/3 blast radius.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Move to disagree there Hang. Pakistan's military has the opposite bend. They are vehemenantly anti-Islamic Fundamentalist and have wished for years they could go into Pakistans northern border to wipe out the Taliban's interference in the region.
The Taliban has been grabbing land up there under thier noses for years now. And just look at the Kashmir area to know what they think of subtle land grabs by neighbours.
Problem is there is a large segment of people and govermental influence in the country for the Taliban. This has been a pain in their bellybutton for awhile now- probably one of the reasons they are enjoying siding with the US. Now they have an excuse to dispose of annoying Islamic Clerics and protesters and refugees who have dispersed into Pakistan itself from the border.
Typically Pakistan's military goverment hates competition for power...
Sorrow
Sorrow you are so wrong! The important people in Pakistan are extremely pro-Taliban. Fortuneately for us, Pakistan is also dirt poor and also somewhat "smart". Pakistan will side openly with whomever they deem to be the most beneficial to themselves, but make no mistake, the Paki's will stab the U.S./Allies in the back at the first hint it will benefit them. India is a far better "friend" to the U.S. and her interests than Pakistan will ever be. Another fortunate point, India hates Pakistan and vice versa, and India has nukes, better nukes than Pakistan. That's the United States trump card at the moment, something not likely to change any time soon.
Pakistan is definately a fair weather friend to the U.S.
Tumor
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Here we have an interesting set of circumstances.. military tactical/strategic nukes complete with an irbm delivery system are in Paskistani Nationalist hands. For now.
Should the command/control of those weapons fall into 'taliban' or al Queida hands, will they use them against American Military Targets within their reach.. such as the Fleet or even Diego Garcia...
Old 'missing' russki 'suitcase' nukes are one thing.. (the whole deal is highly dubious) almost nothing can be done to defend against them, their existence is questionable, and if the terrorists had 'em they woulda used 'em by now.. yes??
So.. the larger danger remains... Pakistans Nukes.
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Nuke the Pakistans!!!
Nuke'em all!!!
Nuke the allies, they can become enemys in the future!!!
Nuke ourselves, to avoid a civil war!!!
Nuke the world!!!!
<Dr. Strangelove walk away with an evil grin on his face...>
:D ;)
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I will garantee you one thing, if the terrorist decide that carrying a small nuke into a major city anywhere in the world and detonate it, Afganastan WILL be glass.
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The world is lucky you are'nt the President ;)
... or a mullah :D
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Naso.. we're on the slippery slope now... we're trying to keep the confrontation limited to a 'war on terror'..
Sadly; it seems to me that the opposition intends to up the ante, and is working very very hard at portraying this as a "war on Islam".
Should they use ANY weapon of mass destruction I feer they shall get their wish.. and it will mean the end of Islam.
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Hangtime, listen,
5,000+ people already died and this, in my mind, is already mass destruction.
But...
It's a small group of amazinhunks organizing this, with BinLaden as theyr boss (apparently).
What he want IS the jihad, IS the West going after the entire Islam.
You want become (with our nations) another of his puppets?
In real life, if someone stole you the car, you kill the entire city?
Many posters here, including you, are waving the flag of the crusade against the entire Islam, you are working for OBL (dont get offended).
Do you really think we have to wage war against 1.200.000.000 people (or more), for a small group of mad people (say 100, 1.000, even 100.000?), is like killing a fly with an handgrenade in a closed room.
Cynically, we NEED the moderate Islam as allied, for many reasons, and the best thing to do, after killed that amazinhunk in a painful manner (and, why not, changed the government in Afghanistan), is to work to repair the big mistakes we have done in the past, the reasons for witch this crazy organization still find recruits.
The only way to win the war against the terrorism, is to take away reasons (escuses) under theyr feet.
Otherwise we will count billions of deaths, and China will quietly take the glowing remnants of this crazy world.
I hope our governments will hold the things and not loose control.
Ever.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Should they use ANY weapon of mass destruction I feer they shall get their wish.. and it will mean the end of Islam.
Islam isnt just based in Pakistan, or Afghanistan
Tronsky
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Duh.
Yah think??
If it turns into a civilization war Tronski, who do you thinks gonna win?
Scenario: The Muslim Clerics call for "JIHAD!!! STRIKE THE INFIDEL!!.."
And do you think we will hesitate to retaliate???
Islam would be iradiacated.. and irradiated.
THATS the point. Lets hope they don't make that call.. so we won't have to.
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Naso:
"The only way to win the war against the terrorism, is to take away reasons (escuses) under theyr feet."
So how do you think we should do this Naso? Flowers in the end of their gun barrels? Please tell us how you would handle the situation.
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Only way to win a war against terrorism is to kill the terrorists.
You can't reason with them. You can't give them a fruit basket and expect them to love you. You sure as hell can't expect them to just change for no other reason other than because we ask them to.
They want to kill Americans and Jews, and take themselves with us.
-SW
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Naso.. I agree with most of your points.
But.. (a large bald one) We have made it very clear.. unite with us against terror, or suffer the fate of the terrorists. The Taliban is squarely in our sights now.
At this point in time I would expect all (ALL, DAMMIT; not just the ones here in the US) Muslim Clerics, worldwide; to state clearly to their followers that they disavow OBL's tactics, that he is a Murderer, and that his actions are not in accord with the whises of Allah.
THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.
Hence; it's looking like it's gonna be JIHAD.
What would you have us do?
Surrender?
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Wow, a lot of posts during the travel back home from work :)
Ok, will answer in order.
Tronsky said:
Islam isnt just based in Pakistan, or Afghanistan
Your answer:
Yah think??
If it turns into a civilization war Tronski, who do you thinks gonna win?
Scenario: The Muslim Clerics call for "JIHAD!!! STRIKE THE INFIDEL!!.."
And do you think we will hesitate to retaliate???
Islam would be iradiacated.. and irradiated.
I urge you to check a world map, and consider:
North and part of central Africa is Islam.
From Urales to Saudi peninsula from Israel (excluded, of course) to China, excluding a big part of India, is Islam.
Indonesia is Islam.
Not counting all the small enclaves, or the Islamic people living in you own country or in Europe.
Islam is the whole people of many races that have the same religion.
You want to A-bomb half of the world landscape?
And pretend you will not suffer consequencies?
Think just about the fallout.
C'mon, get real.
THen Hang asked:
Naso:
"The only way to win the war against the terrorism, is to take away reasons (escuses) under theyr feet."
So how do you think we should do this Naso? Flowers in the end of their gun barrels? Please tell us how you would handle the situation.
LOL, flowers in the guns ;)
No,
first, we have a good friend, but this guy it's a little nasty, he keep kicking in the ball a little boy because need his "Vital space" (dont remember something to you?), and we have feed him with money and know-how since the end of the war, basically because we felt guilty of what another bad guy made to him, and we not prevented this to happen.
Meanwhile we have ignored the screams for help of the little guy for years.
Now is time to hold the nasty friend for the clothes, look in his eyes and say "stop it!!".
You know what I'm talking about, uh? ;)
Then we have to start a new economy, a new way to globalize, not in the hands of some profit-religious corporation, but in the hand of the peoples, as YOUR constitution stated very well (and I S! it), for the good of the human being.
If we dont control the behaviour of our corporations out of our territorial limits, we will never get rid of poverty, and, of course, the hate vs us.
Fight the poverty (sp?), you'll have a better world.
I know, it's a long run work, but we need to start, before to change this bowl in a glowing bowl.
Then the precious SW added:
Only way to win a war against terrorism is to kill the terrorists
True, well, not always, but true for most part of cases.
But we need to avoid new terrorists arise, for every one we kill, they showed us to be capable to bring a lot of people with them in heaven.
Finally Hang said:
At this point in time I would expect all (ALL, DAMMIT; not just the ones here in the US) Muslim Clerics, worldwide; to state clearly to their followers that they disavow OBL's tactics, that he is a Murderer, and that his actions are not in accord with the whises of Allah.
THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.
Hence; it's looking like it's gonna be JIHAD.
What would you have us do?
Surrender?
Surrender?
NEVER!!
Seem our governors are doing a good work to keep the things calm.
And we know very well how we are able to change the things without even show up.
CIA is renewed for this.
Look at the Pakistan:
First day riots everywhere.
Second day some death, and Talib-friendly army generals arrested, with some mullah.
Third day no or little riots.
Disclaimer:
It's not the CIA in this case, it's the dictator wanting to have a better grip over power, and what better occasion of this crisis? ;)
Make sense all the above for you?
Hippye-Naso
Peace and love :D
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I don't know what the "precious" comment was for, however, in this case (which is what I thought we were talking about) the only way out is to kill this group.
As is, it's their children being taught and brought up to despise the US, Jews and anything that would support either of the two aforementioned types of people.
We can't slap Bin Laden's wrist. We can't take him prisoner either, else we run an even greater risk of his followers becomming more violent and dangerous. Not just in the US either, mind you, this is a threat to all who are against terrorism and support the US.
You can cut the head off a chicken, but the lil' bastard keeps running around.
We are going to systematically destroy terrorist cells.
This is the first step to making the world a safer place for our children.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I don't know what the "precious" comment was for, -SW
Was Joking, dont get offended, please.
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I'm not at all, sorry- was trying to be ironic.
I keep forgetting it's hard to be ironic when you can't change the tone of your text. ;)
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
in this case (which is what I thought we were talking about) the only way out is to kill this group.
As is, it's their children being taught and brought up to despise the US, Jews and anything that would support either of the two aforementioned types of people.
Sorry, but my not-english culture is in difficult here.
You meant to kill the children?
Hope I misunderstand.
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No, I forgot to expand on that thought.
Problem with typing from work- bastards keep disturbing me- What I meant to say is to kill the lead terrorists.
When the war against terrorism (in Afghanistan), and the leading government (Taliban) is no longer in power with possibly a new government that can be on better terms with the US, then we can educate the children and show them that we aren't what the exteremists are telling them we are.
It's easy to convince people that don't have much hope, but after this is all over and we can finally get aid to this country again without the Taliban sidelining all of our efforts- then perhaps the population will finally see that we've been helping them and not trying to kill or opress them.
One can hope anyway...
-SW
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just imagine it another way:
if a group of christian fundamentalists were blowing things up don't you think the christian community as a whole would police them? don't yout think there would be strong condemnations? they would distance them sleves asap not kinda sorta say it's wrong...
the moslem world for the most part has been split 50/50. many are in support and those making condemnations are making meager condemnations at best. i haven't heard outrage from any moslem leaders - with the exception of arafat and maybe hussein of jordan.
it will be a war on islam until the bulk of islam condemns them in a more sturdy way.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Duh.
Yah think??
If it turns into a civilization war Tronski, who do you thinks gonna win?
Scenario: The Muslim Clerics call for "JIHAD!!! STRIKE THE INFIDEL!!.."
And do you think we will hesitate to retaliate???
Islam would be iradiacated.. and irradiated.
THATS the point. Lets hope they don't make that call.. so we won't have to.
With that kind of retoric I wonder if you understand or realise what your actually saying.
How can you fight an idea or religion with conventional means?
There are more than 1,400 million Muslims on this planet including the largest muslim country just off the coast, Indonesia.
There are also many different Jihads currently being fought by different organisations and groups e.g the Intifada against Isreal by HAMAS,the PLO, and Jihadu l-Islamiyy.
There was no declaration of Jihaad and so in reference of the WTC flight bombing, there is no basis in the Islamic Shari’ah. Muslims are therefore required to submit to the teachings of of Allah Ta’ala which invokes the peace of Allah Ta’ala on
earth. Muslims are therefore also required to conduct themselves in a dignified and honourable way.
Even if there was a declaration of Jihaad it is prohibited to target and kill women, children, the elderly, and those in churches. And therefore the WTC flight bombings are considered sinful in the eyes of Islam.
However,
considering the Leaders of the Taliban are revered because of their role in the Jihaad against the soviet invasion it can only be seen how events will unfold.
And as for the ridiculous notion of a civilization war, it will end like most sectarian violence..in bloodshed.
Tronsky
oh if to justify my opinions:
1. No I am not a Muslim, or even a Christian
2. Yes I have served in the military
3. No I'm not a pacifist, but then I don't condone killing innocents.
[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Naso, "Islam" is the whole of Muslim countries, collectively. Yes, all of them... vs all of us. If thats what it comes down to then thats the fight we'll have to fight.
This is THEIR (the Muslim Clerics) choice... either lead their followers to extinction by crying "JIHAD AGAINST THE INFIDELS!!" or renounce OBL, his methods and practices. We do not wish a war against "islam", however if faced with one, we shall win by whatever means required to achieve the victory.
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Tronski.. surely even your media has shown the unrest in Indonesia... the largest Moslem population in islam is IN Indonesia.
So.. please correct my information... are not the Muslim Clerics in Indonesia calling for a Jihad.. or are they rejecting OBL's methods loudly, and refusing to give support or creedence to any involved with him?
Look.. if some guy living next door to me made it exceedingly clear his intent was to kill me, would it be intelligent and appopriate for me to simply wait for him to do so?
Indonesia is your next-door neighbor.
Sleep well; my friend.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
just imagine it another way:
if a group of christian fundamentalists were blowing things up don't you think the christian community as a whole would police them? don't yout think there would be strong condemnations? they would distance them sleves asap not kinda sorta say it's wrong...
The IRA receives massive financial support from supporters in the United States. Christians are no more likely to police themselves than other religious groups.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Look.. if some guy living next door to me made it exceedingly clear his intent was to kill me, would it be intelligent and appopriate for me to simply wait for him to do so?
Indonesia is your next-door neighbor.
Sleep well; my friend.
Indonesia is not a threat to Australia, and has not made any notions in that direction even during the difficult events in East Timor.
The protests in Indonesia are by students protesting the bombing of Afghanistan, they are not there primarily because of direct support of Al-Qaeda. Crowds only number in the hundreds and are being easily controlled by the Indonesian Police. Megawati Sukarnoputri has already come out in support of the US alliance.
We do not fear them, nor would we have cause to.
Tronsky
[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Originally posted by -tronski-:
The IRA receives massive financial support from supporters in the United States. Christians are no more likely to police themselves than other religious groups.
Tronsky
mr apple - meet mr orange. the ira has never pulled a stunt like this. i am talking about after the fact - not before. if theyt blew up the world trade center in the name of christianity they would be killed by christians.
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When the lunatics run the ENTIRE asylum, we'll have no choice but to destroy the asylum before the lunatics destroy us...
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Originally posted by Eagler:
When the lunatics run the ENTIRE asylum, we'll have no choice but to destroy the asylum before the lunatics destroy us...
Where are the lunatics? ;)
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Originally posted by Naso:
The only way to win the war against the terrorism, is to take away reasons (escuses) under theyr feet.[/QB]
Naso; the only thing that will satisfy some of the fanatical Muslims is if everyone converts to Islam. Maybe that's what we should all do. NOT!
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web page (http://www.fieler.com/terror/)