Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on September 27, 2000, 12:51:00 PM
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You may be amused by their version of history.
USA, as the biggest oil buyer, agreed with Saudi Arabia, as the biggest oil seller, to drive the price of oil down. Gues why - only in order to bankrupt the Soviet Union that depended on the sale of oil for currency.
Never mind that US and the rest of the world could use the cheap oil themselves, or that the proceeds from the Soviet oil sales went directly to purchase grain in the same USA, or that Saudi Arabia is in no way a US puppet state and even if it were, does not have that much influence on oil prices...
It gets better. When the Soviet Union collapsed, US decided to revert back to high oil prices - why buy something cheap, if you can pay much more! Asking their pal Saudi Arabia to just raise prices and make a fortune seemed too complex a plan, so that is why US attacked innocent Iraqis - to disrupt the world oil production and raise the prices. Never mind that Iraq is not a major producer and shortly after the gulf war the oil prices dropped to the record lows despite Iraq embargo, or that US and Europe would lose and Russia would profit from the increasing oil prices.
And it is just mentioned as a matter of fact on the major Russian news channel, an official mouthpiece of the government!
You would think nothing has changed in my former motherland - the US is still the enemy who has nothing better to do then spend all its time trying to destroy their beloved country just out of spite and fear.
miko
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Democracy - a word in the dictionary between "dildo" and "dissidence".
Fl. Adm. Mason.
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]
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It's all true.
The US also planted all those "bodies" in those fake "mass graves" all over Kosovo.
And of course the US is once again interfering in Yugoslavia. Can you believe those crazy Yanks, crying foul over that election, just because the other guy got more votes than Milosehitler.
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Miko, what channel exactly did you see it on? RTR?
Maybe you misunderstood something? It sounds like a nationalistic hallucination vrom "Zavtra" or modern "Pravda"...
But what is going on in Russia is getting stranger and stranger... Putin's biography is to be studied at schools in SPb! Just like Lenin's in good old times! But what is going on in media now is not as frightening as what happened during the Yugoslavian war: that time TV looked almost like back in 70s...
Funked, when did you see those graves in the news for the last time? AFAIK there were many of them. With Serbian bodies... Something really unpleasant for Western media, eh?
And it's Serbs who blow up their churches? I guess that glorious KFOR soldiers try to gently persuade them not to do so?...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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and WTF has to do the poor Saw with this ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (hehe j/k dont worry I udnerstood everything (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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I saw it on RTN here in Brooklyn - they re-broadcast the russian programs. I don't remember the program, it covered three issues over an hour. One of them was the Russia's problems with oil. The gist of it is that when oil prices go down, Russia suffers, when the prices go up, it suffers even more because of explosion in corruption.
The US involvement was not even a topic here and not discussed or even condemned. It was just mentioned as a part of a brief review how prices changed over the last 15 years. Nothing exiting, just to refresh the viewer's memory. Like a common knowlege.
Like a coverage of celebration of the universary of the Kulikov Battle I saw the same day. Russians under Dmitriy Donskoy defeated the Mongols there and got rid of the enslavement. Also a common knowlege.
It just took Mongols four generations to realize they were defeated there and pack their things and leave Russia. Probably because thet were slow...
The patriotic archeologists still have trouble locating the graves of the russian warriors. After all 150,000 russians defeated 300,000 mongols and almost all died themselves. Must be half a million bodies. Great mistery. Of course I read a study in the soviet press abaout 20 years ago proving that most likely about 12,000 russian knights battled 18,000 mongols and when victorious, took about 600 own dead with them to be buried properly. That was based on the physical size of the field (tiny) and throughput of the known number of bridges over which the russian army crossed the river in just a few hours.
"Russia - a great country with unpredictable past."
M. Szvanetsky.
miko
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Miko - sounds like Russia is catching up with the US in one way - invention of dubious conspiracy theories (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Boroda, I understand your feelings over Kosovo (given here and in other topics), but surely you don't believe that KFOR is 'evil', that they are there to antagonise Russia or humiliate the Serbs? I think they are there to help, to stop the killing and I 100% agree with the deployment of British troops. In other posts you have suggested that the Serbs could do the peace keeping; I just can't see how you can think this as logical solution to the problem. We all saw pictures of how the Serb local government was involved in the (widespread) torture and killing of dissidents - you cannot justify that no matter what the KLA were doing (and I appreciate they were not exactly whiter than white).
Intervention by the West may have had dubious intentions in the past, and they might be accused of lethargy when it comes to action, but in Kosovo I believe they have done a 'good' job.
As for Milosevic, I don't see how anyone can defend him for anything, considering his actions during the Bosnian conflict, regardless of Kosovo. He is very far from being a 'great' man, never mind a 'great' leader. He's led his people from poverty to destitution and political isolation in a few short years.
I can't see how you can accuse our press of bias - just look at how the Russian press reported Chechnya. The BBC is one of best news reporting organisations in the world, easily on a par with CNN.
Interesting to hear from you again, Boroda (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Serious question here for any Russians or people who were raised in Russia/USSR .
What did they say about the USA in your schools growing up? I was always taught that the Russian people weren't diferent from Americans, just that their government was tyranical. Basicly I grew up thinking that the Russian people were all prisoners. Is/was there any truth to that or was it all American propaganda?
The one thing that worries me the most today is a return to the cold war with Russia, or a new one with China. Reading news like the news in your post scares me. That's the kind of thing that can lead exactly to a cold war. Do / did the people believe propaganda?
Udie
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Originally posted by Udie:
Basicly I grew up thinking that the Russian people were all prisoners. Is/was there any truth to that or was it all American propaganda?
Do / did the people believe propaganda?
Udie
We were prisoners, yes so the statement is true. But it is irrelevant. We did not have a concept of propaganda - it was the only thing we knew. Not only we did not know about other points of view, we had no idea other points of view were possible. Like a blind person who never hears about a sight.
So we trusted what we were constantly told. That capitalists/sionists headed by americans started all the wars. That the workers in western countries live like slaves in abysmal conditions and are on the verge of revolt. That our economy is more productive and we are overtaking the US economically and the only reason we did not do so yet is because we were ruined by the War and US was not, and that US is robbing the third world countries while we protect and help them.
But the outcome was predetermined. Besides our advanced political system, we had all the advantages of the country where steam engine, locomotive, radio and most of the other things were invented...
There were no alternative newspapers, journalism of any kind. Very few people felt the need to listen to the western short-wave broadcasts.
So no crash, catastrophy or problem was ever reported. The war in Afganistan was unknown for a few years.
Long dispance phone calls while reasonably priced, took a few hours to arrange and in most cities could be done only from the special office. People did mot move much from city to city, so you could not get much through the word of mouth, even if Big Brother allowed such kind of talks, which it did not. Nothing drastic - just a call to the office and a conversation. A siberian camp only for those who persisted.
Access to the rest of the worls was ceverely restricted even to the rest of the Soviet Bloc countries. Almost non-existant. And the people there only went in groups and were warned to the concequences of spreading capitalist provocations upon return.
Incidentally, it was difficult to get an SW radio in USSR and the broadcasts were jammed.
Even when people got them, few people believed them because they were completery at odds with all our world.
Of course we got full coverage of all slums, catastrophies, wars, strikes and demostrations happening in the rest of the world.
Voice of America broadcasted on May 15th that on April 26 an Chernobyl Electric plant blew up with more radiation then Nagasaki bomb and is poisoning the europe? What a load of lies, if something like that happened, wouldn't we know of that?
The only exceptions were jews who had some contacts via mail with relatives outside after the Iron Curtain was lifted. Nothing political was ever in the mail but it was obvilus from them that regular working pople live normal lives, actually quite spectacular by our standards - completely at odds with the common knowlege.
That is the reason why jews were restricted in many areas - they really were not trustworthy to the communist government, not because someone up there hated them.
The jews kept quied about what they knew, even from their own children, lest we get into trouble by saying something...
Of course a healthy dose of antisemitism encouraged among the people by the government just made sure that if some jew would say something, he would not be trusted. Nothing personal, you understand - quite a few people up top were jews, despite all of the restrictions.
In short we would have fought you evil capitalists tooth and nail and would have all died in the cause of the world communism so that our great-great-grandchildred could live free and prosperous.
Even now many (most) people there hate US and blame it for everything that happens to their country. Many people there cannot allow themselves to believe the truth because it means that all their suffering were for naught and their future is hopeless because there is nobody to blame for it, so no single cause to overcome.
For all practical purposes, you can treat each individual russian as a misguided soul that can be easily converted if only shown the real american life even fir a day. They are good people who suffered a lot. You would not believe a transformation happening when you lead one through the regular neighborhood with a single family-houses and visit a supermarket. If US government provided free transportation to all willing russians for a week-long visit to the us, 99% would convert, go back and set their country straight.
You can also treat the russian people as a whole as an unpredictable threat and vicious and deadly enemy if it ever comes to conflict.
Personally, if it comes to that, I would cry while looking through the sight of my M16 at my former countryman. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Does that answer your question?
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Miko,
Glad you made it out. Hope things go well for you and yours.
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Miko,
Yes! Glad you made it out and are now free. Personaly I think the USA dropped the ball after the brake up of the USSR. We were in a position to realy help your people out of their situation. Instead we set up the IMF and gave cash that ended up going directly to the Russian Mob. I haven't worried about war with russia since the gulf war, but this Putkin guy scares me. Hopefuly it will never come to that...
Udie
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Miko,
Glad you made it out. Hope things go well for you and yours.
Thanks, guys. Not only the last ten years were the best and happiest years of my life, but I owe it only to myself (also my thanks US government for letting me run my life to the best of my abilities.). Of course many americans were ready to help me. Though I never needed their help, I knew I could count on it and I am gratefull. The whole thing was extremely profitable to the US as well.
I consider myself an atheist but unlike many other "atheists" I never ever had a wish to ask/pray to God for anything or any urge to refer to him even in the direst circumstances.
Nevertheless, on a couple of occasions, just in case He is really there (never proved to the contrary) and is somehow involved, I issued my thanks.
Now if I could only make my freaking Juno DSL work properly, I could die a happy man!
miko
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I think the USA dropped the ball after the brake up of the USSR....
[/B]
Not sure anything could have been done. The country tried to jump from slavery/feudalism/serfdom straight into democracy/capitalism. That process took centuries in the west and was quite painfull.
The crime and corruption was ready for the new conditions and took advantage of that. But most of the populations were not ready for democracy.
One of the worst legacies of the communist regime is complete unfamilarity of the most of the population with making any kind of choices. Everything was predetermined and, however treadbare, guaranteed. Never had to look for work (no matter how useless). Never had to be homeless - one room per family or dormitory for singles. Never died of hunger. The healthcare was guaranteed and free. Of course people died for the lack of simple treatments available everywhere in the world, but we did not know about their existance. So nobody was upset about that. No organ transplants, no cancer treatment, no MRI, no chance for an premature born child to survive. 80 percent of women having afterbirth complications because of infection . All that was normal
What they needed IMHO was the monarchy. One guy - autoritarian but permanent. Interested in the long-term stability, not in ripping off whatever he can, stuffing it into Swiss accounts and running away before he gets caught. Not interested in making expedient deals with corrupt politicians, criminals, etc. in order to win the next elections.
Then once in a couple of generations population grew prosperous and educated, able to live in a competitive world, they would peacefully and unnoticeably convert to whatever they wanted if they wanted. Not much is heard about oppression of european countries by their monarchs, is it?
Quite a few russians support the idea of constitutional monarchy and almost all of them are disillusioned in democracy, free market and capitalism, nay - hate them - thinking that what they've just experienced are those things! I would be too if that was all I saw.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]
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It was not me, I was never there, no one has ever seen me...
<hd&r>
Saw
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Miko:
nice stuff., always good to read an insider's view.
I grew up in Sweden, with the Big Bear neighbor ready to attack from the Baltic states. To me as a kid, the Soviet Union was a huge mass of unknown determined bitter faces that were very secretive. Dinnae have a real grasp of politics back then, other than they were bad, and the Europeans and the US good. The Soviet people, I was told, lived in bad conditions, and didn't even know it. My father gave me Orwell's Animal Farm and said "here, this is written by an ex communist, and this explains Russia".
So I spent my teens thinking "what the hell happened to the Snowballs?" in regards to the Soviet Union question.
There were lots of propaganda both ways, but it seems to me there was more truth to the western than to the Soviet one.
The Russian people will e back, they're capable of going to hell and back without being destroyed, as they've demonstrated. But there are some internall problems the rest of the west cannot help fix; much like in African nations.
m,iko, your experiences and thoughts mirror what I've thought it'd be like. Scary, really.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Miko, sorry, I have to ask a few questions: (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So, you emigrated 10 years ago? Exactly - when? How old were you? Your hmmm... social status in the USSR? Where did you live?
About me: 28 now, born in Leningrad, living in Moscow since 1982. From an officer's family, father is a retired colonel, 44 years in the Army. Studied in English-speaking school, then in Moscow High Technical College (Bauman's). Now I am an engineer in Academy of Science. You can call me "mazhor" if you wish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I visited US in 1989. I was impressed, but I never felt like what you described.
Hard to buy a SW reciever? Foreign radio jammed? Where did you live!? Even in Moscow, with heaviest jammers in the country I could listen to BBC or Svoboda in Russian even with a cheap 50-rouble reciever. It always was a matter of your wish.
Propaganda was everything we got, no doubt. But in my social circle (as well as in other parts of society except for people who couldn't buy a SW reciever spending all the money on cheap porto) there always was a strong doubt, and a nessesity to get the information from other side. BTW, Voice of America programms usualy described material values (cars, homes, radios, luxury) without giving an idea what are they really worth. Pretty cheap, don't you think so?
Chernobyl accident was reported in morning papers on the next day. Don't repeat this roadkill again. What BBC and VoA said was ridiculous: in the middle of May they said that 100000 were killed. We were measuring radiation level at our school's physics lab every day, we even checked the radiation counter because we were afraid it lies. I was 14 that time and remember it all quite good.
Afghan war? Just go and ask people who returned from "behind the river". Believing in communism? Look around, everything gets worse with each year. Turn on your brain!
If you dare to THINK - propaganda is useless.
Or maybe you really had that famous bears in the streets of your city?... Many people who left in early 90s start to remember them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, your vision of Russian TV news is a little paranoid. That's all I can say. Just imagine what a Russian "modern communist" should say about many US TV programms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.cultrevolution.ru:8101/riot_music/06.%20destroy_america.mp3 (http://www.cultrevolution.ru:8101/riot_music/06.%20destroy_america.mp3)
This is an example of another paranoid point of view. Some people think so here, but could you expect anything else? And you have to admit that US is not a friend to Russia. Sad...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-28-2000).]
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mmm, going to be more interesting.
Thank you both milenko and boroda for your informations <S>!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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People will always be paranoid about Russia in the West - we have completely different (incompatible?) mindsets. Miko makes a good point about Russia moving quickly from system to another (under the guidance of Stalin) - seems to me that is exactly what has happened to Russia in the last ten years.
Seventy years of repression and austerity and within a couple years a free market. And it isn't exactly working for the average Russian, it seems to me. I just hope democracy can maintain the foothold it has, for the sake of the Russian people and the rest of the world.
And then there's China... I'll say one thing for muli-national capitalism, it's getting stronger by the day in China, and it might make any agression/hostility to the West, 'uneconomical'.
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Boroda,
I do not have the time for the lengthy responce now.
I lived in Kharkov, Ukraine. That was a russian-speaking city, the 3rd significant industrial and educational city in USSR.
My parents are and engineer and a college professor. My family had constant correspondence with our relatives in US since 1970, though they hid it from me until I was old enough to keep my mouth shut.
I left Ukraine in 1989 and came to US in 1990 at the age of 24.
I got a Masters in C.S. here on top of my soviet degree in Electronics and now I am a programmer (surprise!).
I consider myself an american - my English is probably better then that of the most people where I live (New York (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), I probably paid more taxes already then average american pays during his career (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). My external political views are typically american - not discernible with a naked eye.
I have no idea what "mazhor" means - not a musical term, I guess. What does it really mean?
I served in the Soviet Army in 1984-1986. I was demobilized from Belorussia on April 28, 1986 - two days after Chernobyl blew up few dosen miles away. Rather then go home I chose to spend the 1st of May holiday with my army friend in neaby Minsk - the capital of Belorussia.
There was a huge selebration, hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating outside. There was absolutely no indication of any kind of danger.
On May 2nd I left for home and arrived to Kharkov. In two weeks people found out that something happened, though not the extent of it.
In our city all the radiation counters in the offices that had them became controlled stricter then Xerox machines or typewriters. Those asking for them got friendly talk about spreading unwarranted panic.
Number of soldiers fighting in Afganistan and number of casualties was not known even to the direct participants until the Glasnost. In first-person view it was sometimes obvious that we were not helping the peacefull population against "american agressors" at their own request.
Not that coming home the veterans freely discussed their findings and observations, at least not until the same Glastnost. Even then most prefered to keep their mouths shut and tried to forget what they did.
Because suddenly "dukhi" became noble "freedom fighters" and we became butchers of innocent civilians, just like the US vietnam Vets but with more reason. Now that the "freedom fighters" are bringing their war onto the soil of the former USSR, the people must be really confused who the hell is the bad guy...
I agree that the Voice of America's and Deithsche Vella's (sp?) broadcasts were quite inept. The numbers how much an average worker earned and paid for various things would be very usefull for those who believed them.
Yes, everything was getting worse each year, but that was the fault of the capitalists - we had to arm ourselves to keep the world peace!
My vision of Russian TV is just exact descripion of what I saw once at my in-laws. I do not watch it. I have no idea whether it is representative of the whole. I was just surprised by the tone with wich she mentioned complete and obvious falsehood as accepted fact.
Of course the intellectual elite was more knowlegeable and skeptical then I described. I thought all people were like that until I went I went to the serve in the army after 2 years in college. There I met real people and had to live among them for quite a while.
Even among the intellectuals there was never hope for any change or any activity other then retyping of some books. The whole Perestroika thing was quite a surprise for most, I am sure M. Gorbachev did not expect such spectacular results of his little "liberalisation experiment" eiter.
I am sure that our experiences could be quite different in the same country. The driver of my tank retired from the army to marry a wife his parents bought him. When we met, I did not think such things existed in Soviet Union and he did not know how many republics there were in USSR or where America, let alone Israel was.
You probably know, Pavel, that life in Moskow and Leningrad - two capitals of USSR wass in no way indicative of the life in the rest of the country. I lived in a major city myself and felt the difference.
Hard to buy a receiver? How about two years without a toothpaste? One of the three bycicle factories in the USSR was in Kharkov and it took me 2 years to catch one on sale?
Our VEF (not bought in Kharkov) had 21 and 17 meter bands that were blanketed around the clock. But there are not 2 SW but at least 5 bands on which there were broadcasts.
Anyway, I am writing posts here, not dissertations. So my statements may seem less objective and more partial than they really are - cannot cover every angle. Take them with a grain of salt and do not hesitate to ask for explanations.
I am learning a lot about you people from such discussions, whether I agree with the views or not.
US is not a friend of Russia. Russia is doing plenry of things detrimental to american interests. Most disconcerning is supplying nuclear technology to the fundamental muslim regimes that are openly hostile to the USA. But it is definitely not an enemy - not to the politicians and not in the public minds.
I heard on TV recently - NBC's Olympic Broadcasts Ratings are way lower then expected. Here is (their) explanation - "People are not interested because there are no villains in the world any more to have strong feelings about. When russian sportsmen lose, we just feel sorry for them."
Regards,
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-28-2000).]
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37, university, left in 1990.
Remember that when I was a kid I felt sorry for you lot - you couldn't have possibly had as happy a childhood you imperialist bastards, could you now? I mean, without the Communist Party looking after you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Once asked a friend of mine - a very nice Spanish lady - how she felt living in a country ruled by a "fascist dictator Franko". For a long time she couldn't figure out what I was on about - she lived normally, went to school, holidays, boys, whatever...
Boroda - "visiting" is not enough to even begin to understand what life is like, I'm afraid. Shops and stuff are there - so are the dentist bills, taxes, mortgage payments etc.
As for luxuries, cars etc without reference I can give you a simple comparison:
Back in 1990 Lada cost ~9,000 roubles (official price, since there was a severe shortage of cars available to buy the actual price would be in excess of 50K); average annual salary - 2,400. Lada-class car here, in the UK, would cost something like £6,000-8,000 new with an average salary of ~£12K. Spot the difference. I bought my first car here in the UK - a 1982 Toyota Starlet - in 1991 for 80 quid (eight zero) - that would be an equivalent of 16 roubles - 4 bottles of vodka (3.62 OR 4.12 a bottle, depending on the brand). Did 20K on it (miles, that is) - not a glitch, went later as a £400 part-exchange.
Dunno how you guys got this stuff in Moscow but in 1991 there was a little turmoil there - the one when Gorbachev was shifted and Yeltsin rose to power - it was NOT reported by ANY Russian stations in Novosibirsk. They listened to Voice of America to learn what was happening.
(For not-Russians amongst us - Novosibirsk, 1,500,000 people, one of the largest industrial, military and scientific centres in former USSR, located bang in the middle of Russia, stick your finger in the centre of the map - it's there).
Nobody's perfect but we, humans, fear what we don't know. In many cases people believe what they're told because there's no other means to get information.
And (for Dowding) BBC coverage is good but I've heard enough c**p from all those so called "experts" that keep popping up every time anything happens whether on BBC, ITN or Sky that I just treat anything I hear from "official" sources with a healthy doze of scepticism now. No way all the journalists reporting "unbiased".
Apologies for incoherent ramblings.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 09-29-2000).]
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To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.
To the "Kharkov" dude - get a grip. Have you ever seen those magazines they sell in grocery stores? Those things have even more amazing stories (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To the real westerners. You guys need to get real. West has a lot of poverty too. And not as much freedom as you western guys grew up to think.
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Originally posted by cvb---:
To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.
To the "Kharkov" dude - get a grip. Have you ever seen those magazines they sell in grocery stores? Those things have even more amazing stories (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To the real westerners. You guys need to get real. West has a lot of poverty too. And not as much freedom as you western guys grew up to think.
Untrue! While there is ALOT more regulation than there was when I was a child, we are still very free, as long as we act responsibly (that's the key to freedom IMO). I'm a perfect example, I work at home. I wake up when I want too, work when I want too and go to bed when I want too. There's not one person on this Earth that can tell me what to do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and expect me to do it. BUT I'd be willing to bet that leonid and Miko have a much greater understanding of freedom than I could ever have. I've been free my whole life and that's the only reference point I have.
True there's alot of poverty, but heck even the poor in America have 2 tv's and a car, except the homeless and they would to if they were smart enough to go get on the public dole. I had surgery when I was 21 on my left wrist, I had a ganglean cyst. I had it done at the county hospitol here in Houston. Cost me ZERO money. It took a bit longer than if I would have had insurance, but I still got it taken care of. They base it on how much you make, I made nothing that year so I paid nothing. Thanks Texas tax payers!!!!!!
About our tabloids in our supermarkets, DUH!!! An 8 year old vampire lesbian discovered Elvis is living on Mars! What's so hard to believe about that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Lynx and Miko,
Do you guys find it strange/sad what Americans get pissed over? Like high gas prices and $3 ATM fees. Anyway once again I'm glad you guys are free now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and hope we all get to stay this way!
Udie
[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Well, nice to see your answers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lynx, so long! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) How is your family in Arkhangel'sk?
First I want to say that I do NOT think that Soviet time was better then what we have now. For a young man Russia now is a land of opportunities. That's why I am afraid of current trends in government...
"Mazhor" is a nickname (negative, "izdevatel'skiy") for a young man from "elite": studying in a specialized school was enough. Remember DDT's song: "Mal'chiki mazhory"? I had a lot of troubles in a neighbourhood, even living in the center of Moscow...
Miko, I know about demonstrations in Kiev and Minsk. OTOH - almost all children were evacuated from Kiev that summer, like during Moscow Olympics.
Radiation counter we used was an ordinary school gadget, nothing like military ones (that were availible in military science classrooms too), and all we could do was count "cliks". I doubt that such "counters" were confiscated from schools anywhere.
"Dukhi" never became "freedom fighters". Nothing more then "armed opposition". People here never cared for Afghan civilians, Russian lives were the most important thing for public opinion. And what we have in Chechnya now never makes anyone call gangsters "freedom fighters". Try to advocate Chechens in a proletarian company - you'll probably get beaten fast.
You had a VEF with 17m band? Export version? My sets had only 25, 31, 41 and 49m (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In any sel'po, not speaking about district capitals (raytsentr) you could get 3-5 brands of SW recievers, different price ranges and features. Even in the Western Ukraine.
I know that life was different in Moscow. But don't you think I have never been outside of a Garden Ring? I have relatives all over the Union, in Chernovtsy, Simferopol', Sverdlovsk, Krasnodar... Yes, we had meat and sausage in stores all the time, but I never saw my relatives (differnt social groups, from peasants and workers to doctors and officers) not only starving, but even complaining that they can't get food!
Cars, yes, cars. It was difficult to buy a new Lada, you have to subscribe and wait for a few years. But you could buy a used car pretty easy. Lynx, I think that you just didn't face this problem when you lived in Leningrad? More to say: peasants could buy cars much easier then city people. In wealthy regions (Western Ukraine, Kuban') almost every family had a car.
Also, please do not compare prices. It's useless. Food was cheaper in USSR, any "luxury" - cars, radios etc was much more expencive, but how about the apparment rent? And medical care?
As for TV - it sucks everywhere (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There is no official POW on oil prices story, no comments on it in major news. Miko, today I had to watch TV all day long (had to stay with Grandma) - there was nothing like you saw. But I admit that you could find such comments on Russian TV. I hope you understand that in the US there are some anti-Russian paranoid opinions too.
Lemma: Some people who left in 1990-1991 (actually the worst years, while I was speaking about mid-80s) have to persuade themself that everything was so bad here, and that's why they ran away (sorry). Usualy people who emigrated within last 5 years or in Brezhnev's time don't suffer from such things.
Sorry again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Last question, Miko: which school did you go to in Khar'kov?
Damn keyboard swallows "t"s sometimes, so, please, insert them where nessesary (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Udie,
come on dude! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) 2 TV's and a car? What does that have to do with anything? Have you seen people living in trailer parks? Du-uh!
Or maybe I need to remind you of those rich Mexican guys picking crops in Texas? I saw those poor bastards in FLA.
America is a free country, just like most other countries, including Russia. But there's just way too many "absolutely necessary" limitations to this freedom (Equifax, FDA, etc.)
Oh, and BTW, how come this free country always has just one opinion on almost anything? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sometimes PBS airs a desperate truth-seeker, but who cares about PBS? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, what do you do? Software developer? Computer magazine writer? Something that has to do with computers? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lynx, I just understood it! You definetly have a good old Russian mentality! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
How much do you earn monthy, in bottles of vodka?
Hehe, EVERYTHING can be measured in vodka!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by cvb---:
Udie,
come on dude! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) 2 TV's and a car? What does that have to do with anything? Have you seen people living in trailer parks? Du-uh!
Or maybe I need to remind you of those rich Mexican guys picking crops in Texas? I saw those poor bastards in FLA.
America is a free country, just like most other countries, including Russia. But there's just way too many "absolutely necessary" limitations to this freedom (Equifax, FDA, etc.)
Oh, and BTW, how come this free country always has just one opinion on almost anything? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sometimes PBS airs a desperate truth-seeker, but who cares about PBS? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, what do you do? Software developer? Computer magazine writer? Something that has to do with computers? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You'll get no argument out of me about the FDA, ATF, FCC, FAA all of the government burocracies they do chip away at our freedom, that was what I ment by more regulations in my earlier post. My point is that we are still very free. As much as the government tries to control our behavior it is still possible to be free. You just have to act that way.
Mexican workers come here and do one hell of a job here in Tx. Most of them are illegals too I bet, but they come here and work and do the jobs that most Americans are "too good for". There are a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-American people here in Tx that are doing quite well for their selves. They understand what hard work will do for you. They all started at the bottom of the pile though making $2 a day back in the 70's. They exercised the freedom of our country and are living the American dream.
I am an architectural draftsman/designer and luckily the building business is BOOMING here in Tx. 9 short years ago I was nothing but a high school drop out. I didn't own a thing and didn't have a job, thankfuly I had parents that never lost faith in me and sent me to college when I was 22 yrs old. After almost 10 years of hard work I've put myself into a position where I can control my destiny, somewhat anyway. My plan is that in another 10-15 years I'll be done with work and my money will work for me. Then I'll be FREE for real (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now I wonder if that would have been possible in Russia? That's not meant as a slam. I don't think it would have happened there though....
Udie
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You are one lucky man (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Good for you. I have friends from Schenectedy, NY. They have a totally different perspective on American prosperity and opportunities (GE closed a plant there and most of the city lost their jobs).
Actually, yes, college and school dropouts often times make it big in Russia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And that's the thing I don't like about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And (for Dowding) BBC coverage is good but I've heard enough c**p from all those so called "experts" that keep popping up every time anything happens whether on BBC, ITN or Sky that I just treat anything I hear from "official" sources with a healthy doze of scepticism now. No way all the journalists reporting "unbiased".
Could you elaborate a bit, mate? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) What do you mean by official? Government sources are like government sources anywhere - they are there to put forward the government's POV. As for the BBC, I've grown up in the UK and have been on the planet for 22 years. I like to think I have a good understanding of world events and use many sources to do so (including CNN). I have to say that the BBC is as unbiased as any other news service. It is paid for by the people, and if you know who Jeremy Paxman is (hehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), you know the government never gets it easy. People would object very, very strongly if it did - the BBC has a very good reputation here in Britain (as you are probably aware). It's better than any newspaper when it comes to avoiding political bias (except maybe the Grauniad or Independent, which are ok I guess).
I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government, even though it is not a private organisation.
A journalist can never be truly unbiased - but many value their professional integrity above anything else, and have risked life and limb to get the 'truth', however elusive. Many of these journalists work for the BBC.
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I would suspect people from NY would have a different view, my god those people are damn near taxed to death. Doesnt NY have one of the highest if not the highest tax rates in the nation?
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Dowding, it is exactly what I meant: THINK! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) They always lie: and it's the only way for them to survive. Media, authorities, Party, advertisement, statistics - all of them. Regardless to where they come from.
Another question to Miko: If you were so brainwashed - what made you - as well as many other people in USSR - emigrate?
Udie, freedom is a very relative thing. In many ways I was much more free in the USSR in 1989 then you are now. At least many Americans on flightsim boards make me think so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And NOW I am free as a bird, while you live in a cage.
Dowding, you visited USSR in 1990? Again: it was the worst time for my country since maybe 1919.
Friday night, I am at my friend's drinking beer %) Maybe I can't explain myself now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda - In some ways what you say is true. There are lies in the organisations you name. But here's maybe the key difference. They are not all lying for the same cause, unlike the various agencies in the Soviet Union.
I was only 11 years old when I went to the USSR. Looking back at what happened in the few years afterwards I wish I'd been older, so that I could appreciate and understand what I saw to a greater degree.
I visited all the landmarks of Moscow and Leningrad. I still remember the feeling I had when I entered the Lenin's tomb. The silent reverence and the way the guards stood so attentive to anything we did. I haven't really experienced anything like it since. I know it sounds melodramatic, but maybe it was the feeling of history. You could sense how the people outside revered this man.
I remember the black market; putting US dollars into a cigarrette box in exchange for a babushka doll. I bought a model of 'Aurora' and it hangs on my wall now (not for any politcal reason - just cos it looks good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). People wanting to buy our trainers and jeans. A man with a gun on the train to Leningrad outside our cabin. Sorry Boroda, but the weird food (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). McDonalds and Pizza Hut with barefooted beggars on the street outside. Meeting kids our age in an English school in Moscow - one of the older lads taught some of them to play "Great Balls of Fire." An amazing visit - gave me my taste for travelling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
When things haven't been going well for Russia, I've often thought of the kids my own age I met there and how they are getting on. I just wish I had kept in touch with them. I simply hope things have changed for the better for them.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Dowding, I hosted an American friend in 1989 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So I know that food is weird for anglo-saxons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) For my guest it was always too much, ask Miko is a Ukrainian approach to feeding their guests (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Lenin's mausoleum gave me the same impression. Exactly.
And English school you visited could be the one I finished just a year before. I studied in #23, on Park Kultury subway station.
In early 1990s I was a college student, and often spent my time long-range hiking with kids from my former school. We took the group of children born in 1977-78 to their first mountain trip in 1991, and traveled with them until they graduated. The best group I ever had. All over Russia, from Kola noodlesula to Lake Baikal... 6 years younger - and they were so differnt from me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Good old "bad times"! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Oh, forgot what I need to say: there is no difference for you - they all lie to take your money/property/health/life. Regardless to social formation or ideology. Try your best to escape them all. The guys who emigrated from the USSR have chosen the most obvious way to escape - only to aquire new parasites.
All above said is only my own personal opinion based on my personal experience.
6 AM here, I am full of beer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There is no tobacco that can be compared to "Belomor" made at Uritskiy's factory!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rebyata, tut, v Moskve - eto defitsit! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-29-2000).]
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Udie, Leonid lives in Seattle!!!
He knows Russian history much better them many Russians (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and your mistake is a great honor to his knowledge and intellignce!
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Udie, Leonid lives in Seattle!!!
He knows Russian history much better them many Russians (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and your mistake is a great honor to his knowledge and intellignce!
How did I make a mistake?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and I don't live in a cage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Boroda - I'll try and dig out some of the stuff I got from Russia, and try and find out which school we visited. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There was talk of an exchange scheme for a while afterward, but nothing came of it.
Russian food - mmmm. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I remember there was quite alot of it, but as a kid I must have been a bit picky and didn't eat much in that week! The waiter's must have thought we were typical decadent westerners, and I always felt a little guilty leaving it. One thing I remember was a rice type thing, piled in sort of a tower, with a white source. Don't know what it was.
The ice-cream was great though! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for your view of the West, its a little cynical, if you don't mind me saying. Sure, it's no paradise; there's poverty, injustice, crime etc. But it is the best system on the planet, overall, and although many changes need to be made (and will be made) I would fight to protect the rights and ideals we have in this country specifically, and the West generally. But I'd be a little biased, I guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-30-2000).]
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Could you elaborate a bit, mate?
Sure: Kosovo/Chechen war coverage by all (without exception) Western news sources.
Neither Kosovans nor Chechens are "the whiter-than-white freedom fighters fighting a holy war against big-ugly-brother oppression". In no way I condone mass slaughter of innocent civilians by anyone but showing them as they have been shown (very one-sided I must say) is naive to say the least.
I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government, even though it is not a private organisation.
Here's the news - the news sell. It's a commodity same as Coronation Street or a Nescafe commercial. The "popular" outlook on things sells better hence the biased coverage.
And the popular views are that the Russians are generally "bad". Therefore - Chechens are good and so on. No-one disputes personal integrity of journalists. It's just impossible to be in 2 places at once hence inability to see those ever so important both sides of the story.
In close to home terms: IRA - freedom fighters? Like hell they are... Ever seen a report showing "IRA's point of view"? Still believe everything's reported unbiased?
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by cvb---:
To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.
Sure pal - you just go right ahead and buy them new. The problem is they lose 10-15% of the price you've just paid for them the moment you drive out of the showroom but hey - what's a few thousands between friends, right? Are you a dealer or smth? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
What if you don't like what manufacturers spitting out in your general direction anyway? I spent 8 weeks looking for "the one I want" - 1992 Honda Prelude SE 2.0i 16V 4WS (one of the last Mk3 Preludes sold in this country). At 110K on the clock with full Honda service history it'll beat the snot out of anything manufactured today. And it's drop dead gorgeous too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I don't just "drive it" - I enjoy every second of being with my Big Beautifull Doll (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Surely, there are used cars that "suck" - you don't have to buy those do you? I had to drive a brand new Escort (company car - blah-blah) - "sucked" would be a massive understatement about that thing.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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I can see the headline now:
"Western media in reporting of Chechyen War Shocker".
There was virtually no reporting of Chechnya compared to Kosovo, or Bosnia before that. How many Western journalists were in Grozny when it fell? Answer: none.
As for reporting of KLA etc - reporters can only report on what they see, and no reporter worth his salt will lie about what he sees. At no point did I hear or read of a single journalist advocating the view - "The Serbs are evil, the KLA are saints." They reported on facts - the viewer or reader then makes a judgement. If someone wants to come to the conclusion that what they are seeing is a real-life Hollywood film, complete with 'Goodies' and 'Baddies', then that's their lookout.
I personally put much more faith in 'after the fact' programmes, which have time to assimilate all the facts without the pressure of first-hand reporting. Such as 'Panorama' or 'World in Action' (when it used to be on). Also, the books of journalists on their experiences; Martin Bell's book on the Bosnian conflict is very interesting ('Diary of a War Zone Thug' I think its called - I met and talk to the guy at a uni. debate, nice bloke).
Regarding the IRA - I have seen a program speaking to members of that 'freedon-fighter' group, and outlining the history behind the 'troubles'. I've also spoken to people who actually live in NI, who I was at uni. at. When the IRA bombed the Lonon Docklands, or Manchester or the pubs in the 1970s, or shot another soldier - the BBC report the facts and the facts only.
cvb - Used cars don't necessarily suck any more than new ones do. Well, that's true over here, I don't know about over there. Are you saying that you've always bought new cars, and they've always worked without problem? You must be the luckiest man in the world! Some new cars over here lose 50% of their value in 6 months!!!
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Dowding - I never said any of the journalists lied. They just didn't report all of the truth.
And it's not actually the journalists themselves, it's the news editors etc - people who actually compile the news you see. In order to be truly objective one needs to show both sides of the story. What we were shown - and don't tell me there was no way to get "the other side's story" - was that Serbs were, broadly speaking, slaughtering kosovan civilians. There you go - bad Serbs and good Kosovans.
If you had a chance to see the conflict from the Serbs point of view - shown just as truthfully and with equal respect you would have made your own mind who was right and who was wrong.
At no point did I hear or read of a single journalist advocating the view - "The Serbs are evil, the KLA are saints." They reported on facts - the viewer or reader then makes a judgement.
They didn't have to - all we saw on all channels were Kosovan refugees (fact), and poorly dressed/armed KLA fighters (fact) vs serbian tanks and artillery (fact). Are you saying you've made an objective judgement based on that coverage?
Propaganda :
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause;
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=propaganda (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=propaganda)
Dr Goering was reportedly quite good at it.
(again)
I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government
I have to point out that in my case I had a chance to see it from both sides of the fence. That's why I'm highly sceptical about anyone professing "the one and only truth" however believable or "true to life" this truth might appear.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-02-2000).]
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Used cars suck just like used clothes. That's why 6 months old car loses up to 30% of the value. I'm not even talking about questionable reliability, dated styling and performance.
I had a 1989 Ford Probe (Mazda built) for 4 months. It was disgusting, but I was a student and had no money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) After that I had a 1999 a 2-door Ford Escort, 9 months. It was a little better (still no money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now I have a 2000 BMW 323.
BTW, why are you so worried about money? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There's _always_ enough money for everyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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But there was also reports on how the KLA were treating Serb civilians. I don't remember the details, but I'm sure of this. I also read a history of the KLA somewhere which detailed their actions before and during the conflict.
If you want the other side, you might have to look a little harder but it is there. I'm also sure that on news bulletins at the time, it was discussed. Moreover, when Kosovo hit the international news headlines, it was the Serbs doing the ethinic cleansing and mass displacement; the KLA were very much on the defensive.
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Ooops - double post!
Might as well use it...
cvb - you are saying that after 6 months a car becomes unreliable? Dated styling? So you change your car every 6 months also?
If not, then why pay inflated prices, when you can save thousands of pounds by wating 6 months? Anyway, a car doesn't properly 'run in' until about a year has passed - any problems that the car had off the production line have been sorted out by the mug who bought it brand new. I'd rather save myself the hassle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-02-2000).]
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Lynx, you have to admit that some journalists lie deliberatly. The best example was that German reporter who used tapes of Russian reporter with Russian soldiers burying Chechen rebels. He clipped the tape so that dead gangsters looked like civilians. Later he admited this fact.
Story of a Kosovo conflict started with many lies. Serbs sterted police operations against Albanian gangs that terrorised civilians (both Serbian and Albanian) and smuggled drugs. By the November, 1998, there were about 200 people dead on each side. Russian army does the same thing in Chechnya...
If you remember - in Spring, 1999, I gave LOTS of links to Serbian resourses covering Kosovo conflict to warbirds.general, and NOONE of my opponents ever bothered looking at them! AFAIR you were involved into that discussion too...
As for Grozniy - there were journaists with the terrorist forces. All they said was that it feels very bad when you are bombed. I can add that it is very uncomfortable when the apartment house next to yours is blown up at night. Look at my thread on AGW:
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/001131.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/001131.html)
Looks like we finaly agree on something (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Dowding, buying a used car is almost like buying damaged designer clothes. I have to admit that it makes economic sense, but who cares? You have to drive a car that some stranger used to have. It's like that he did some nasty things there too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What is the point of all this? Trying to get a car that you couldn't afford new for little money? Why? Don't try to be something you're not! Obey your thirst! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But, it's a free society. Actually, I should be glad there's people that like used cars. Just makes it cheaper for me to own a new car every 3 years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS. BTW, it all started with a used Toyota as a symbol of western prosperity (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actualy used cars are the way togo IMnsHO. I may buy 1 new car once just to say I was the only owner, but that would be the only reason. The instant you drive off the lot you lose at least $2,000 to $5,000 alot more in some cases. If you play your cards right with used cars you can buy a new (used) car ever 2 years and actualy make a little money or at least brake even. That is provided you pay cash for your car.
The trick is to buy the thing at or as close to wholesale value as possible. This can be tough if your not in the car business or if you don't know anybody in the business, but it is entirely possible.
Want to talk cheap cars? Try my first car, got it in '88 it was a '77 Buick Regal Landau. Rust bucket with NO muffler or exhaust manifold (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) can we say loud? I purchased it for 2 nentiendo tapes and a $150 pevey guitar. I could only keep 1/2 a tank in it because the tank leaked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and I could watch the road go by underneath my feet when I drove. My mom hated that car, she finaly made me sell it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I miss it too, it had a freaking suit engine in it. I used to beat camero's and trans ams in it hehehehehehe.
Udie
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I couldn't remember where it started cvb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Udie - in the US don't your cars get tested for road worthiness? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Over here we have a thing called MOT - you need this to drive legally and get insurance. Having siad that, you can get around it if you know the right people, if you know what I mean.
Boroda - most reputable journalists don't lie. Out of all the reports made on Chechnya, you could only find one example of where a journalist had acted unethically? The great majority possess enough proffessional integrity to report what they see. What I find disturbing about Chechnya, is not the dispute Russia has with the 'terrorists', but how it was unable to distinguish between the rebels and the citizens who were trying to survive amongst the fighting. I've listened to translations of Andrei Babitsky's experiences at the hands of the Russian secret services. He was held within what can be described as a Stalinist 'Gulag'; he heard the screams of men and women throughout his considerable stay. Also, the way the Russian forces were systematically arresting males over the age of 12 (I think) - it just smacked of the Bosnian conflict. The Russian ground forces seemed unable to handle the press, or accept their role as observers of the conflict.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Having siad that, you can get around it if you know the right people, if you know what I mean.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Udie
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Dowding, this is WAR. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Journalists are under military control, just like in Gulf war. If they are not licensed - they are spying. Isn't it clear?
And no doubt, there are civilian losses. Like in any partisan war. But IMHO it is better then letting the part of Russia live according to Shariat laws.
Babitskiy is a representatve of the kind I hate. He serves my enemies, the ones who kidnap people, terrorise Russian population in Caucasus, sell drugs, torture POWs, etc. Did he mention all that? No. Chechens are no freedom fighters, and people like him do their best to justify all their crimes.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Babitskiy is a representatve of the kind I hate. He serves my enemies, the ones who kidnap people, terrorise Russian population in Caucasus, sell drugs, torture POWs, etc. Did he mention all that? No. Chechens are no freedom fighters, and people like him do their best to justify all their crimes.
You hate him for reporting on what life was like for civilians and the rebels? Just because he opposed the government's views? From the reports I read and heard, he wasn't 'justifying' anything - he was trying to show Russia what the Russian forces were doing, and what was happening to the Russian forces.
His reports described the day to day life of the Grozny civilians - something neither Russian or Western news did.
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Dowding - sorry pal, I think you're the one who is brainwashed here. You gladly accept one point of view, rejecting outright the other as "government views". Bad ruskies - good freedom fighters all over again.
What you forget is that Boroda is actually there, in Russia, looking at the whole thing from his, a Russian civilian point of view. He didn't force thousands of people to flee from Grozny/Chechnya. It is him who's on a lookout for "suspicious" packages...
His reports described the day to day life of the Grozny civilians - something neither Russian or Western news did.
I don't need a reporter to describe this to me - my parents had to flee Grozny, my mom cried on the phone when she saw 9 storey apartment block they used to live in reduced to a pile of rubble.
Once again - if you show just one side of the story you are as good as forcing your view upon viewers. No need to lie - just show no all of the truth.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Dowding, Russian TV showed a lot of materials describing the life in Grozniy during and after the assault...
Now there are many documental films about it on TV, with previously "censored" materials that were unclassified only after the hostilities ended.
It's all sad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
And the saddest thing is that all this gangster's "republic" could be easily destroyed and put to order in 1991-92.
BTW, this war was nessesary for the regime in mid-90s. You can't imagine how much money was sent into this black hole! People like Boris Berezovskiy got enormous profits out of it.
Another question: everyone heard about K-141 "Kursk". Have you ever heard about a company of Russian paratroopers that lost 95 of 100 soldiers holding a force of ~2500 gangsters in a mountain pass for almost 24 hours?...
And Dowding, Russian soldiers die not only for the orders from Kremlin, but to save happy and peace-loving Europe from drugs and terrorism too.
Sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Lynx - I never said 'Ruskies bad - chechens good'. And where did I accuse Boroda of being commander of the Russian armed forces in Chechnya? He isn't responsible - but his goverment is, IMO.
I'm sorry if it offends you that I find it hard to accept the output of news organisations from a country that was under communism for 70 years. I really don't think that, despite the changes in the last 10 years, that you can compare the BBC or any Western news organisation with a Russian contemporary. It's naive to think that government control over the media can be washed away so suddenly. More specifically, I think old habits die hard, in this case in the way the Russian government handles the 'free' media. But things are changing.
Western presses did show both sides when possible - for instance the bombing of that Moscow apartment block - but also the indescriminate shelling of Grozny. As for it being a warzone, and that the Russians would see journalists as spies - that sums up the whole attitude of the Russian government to the media. War correspondants go everywhere in a war - in the Gulf War they were in Baghdad, Kuwait City, Tehran etc. It's the same with Kosovo and the Balkans - there were reports coming in from Serbia itself about the effect of the bombing. I don't think the Western media is above bias - I wouldn't just blindly agree with a report just because it came from the BBC, for example. I don't think, on the other hand, that the BBC or CNN would DELIBERATELY mislead on an issue. There are far too many other organisations, such as newspapers, which scream about such an action. Their reputation would never recover.
It's not that I don't accept what you're saying Boroda - I'm just going on what I've heard from other people living in Russia, or people like Babitsky. Sure the rebels did terrible things, and deserve to be labelled as 'gangsters' to some extent. But so did the Russian forces. I just think it wasn't a clean cut as 'terrorists versus glorious Russian armed forces'. What would people like Babitsky have to gain by lying, whereas I can see why the government would censor the output of the news programs, hiding the fact that so many of their young soldiers were being killed, and were killing so many civilians in the process.
Why did only one small radio station carry Babitsky's reports?
How can anyone justify the incarceration of kids as young as twelve, who are somehow judged to be of fighting age? Their families had no idea where they were being taken - perhaps they still don't know?