Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on July 27, 2001, 07:51:00 AM
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Why does this matter? What's the big deal when a convicted murder shows remorse or doesn't show it? Why is this an issue at all? It doesn't change the result actions of his actions one bit. His depth of sorrow, or lack of, doesn't bring back his victim.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010726/ts/crime_boy_dc_5.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010726/ts/crime_boy_dc_5.html)
14 year old boy, get's expelled from school, goes and gets a gun, walks back into school and blows teachers brains out at the door of his classroom (all of this caught on video). No question at all of his guilt. So why in the hell does the media make such a big stinking deal whether or not some murdering punk is "so sorry" he committed the crime. I don't get it. Maybe one of our warm and fuzzy liberal friends can explain this mentality to this mean ole republican. This kid has done the crime, now he should do the time - as much as possible. His punishment, under current FL law, is a 25 to life sentence. Being a 14 year old punk instead of a 18 year old punk, he can't be executed. Shame.
I'm very, very sorry that the best I can hope for justice in this case is a scenerio in which my tax dollars, will house, feed, clothe and entertain this scum for the rest of his life....
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Being a 14 year old punk instead of a 18 year old punk, he can't be executed. Shame.
Total shame.....No matter your age, if you have the mental capacity to murder, then the same should be allowed in return.
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I’m not condoning what this child did, but a thirteen-year-old is not an adult and does not have the thinking facility of an adult. An adult and a child live in two completely different worlds. Personally, I don’t consider a person to be a “true” adult until much later, women around eighteen, men around thirty-five. ;)
Did this kid harbor some vicious intent to kill? I doubt it. He was probably “screwing around” without the mental capacity to understand his actions. I remember running around playing cops and robbers at this age. The difference is that instead of air guns this kid had access to the real thing. Couple this with the fact that he apparently had no adult supervision and you have trouble.
Also this is a poor black kid. If he were rich and white would he be in the same predicament?
Using your reasoning of never forgiving someone for their actions G.W. would still not be able to drive a car because of his prior DUI.
A society that eats its young is a society in decay.
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Fla. Teen Gets 28-Year Sentence in School Killing
Pathetic! :mad:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010727/ts/crime_boy_dc_6.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010727/ts/crime_boy_dc_6.html)
I'm sure you'd want him moving into your neighborhood after he has served his time & is "rehabilitated"....
Our justice system is a joke! I feel for the teachers family, they can't even take solace in the fact justice has been served.
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roadkill BLUR!!!
A 14 year old knows that pointing a gun in someones face and pulling the trigger will kill him...
Maybe you could adopt him and guide him into becoming a respectful member of society....roadkill buddy!
Oh YEAH don't forget ur freakin race card ahole!
I don't care if the kid was green, rich or poor - you kill someone you deserve more than 28 years in jail ... get a grip blur, you must be a real hoot in person...
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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Why do you right-wingers always resort to personal attacks when you hear an opposing opinion? Almost all the posters in this forum do it.
Is it lack of originality?
Or perhaps your rage comes from the fact that mommy and daddy didn’t pay enough attention to you when you were thirteen years old?
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To return to your original concern, Eagler, the fact that the boy apologized is important because it re-affirms people's faith in their societal contract: you be good, i'll be good.
It shows that he recognizes the moral validity of his accusers and hence, the punishment. Alot of people like this kind of absolution for having to punish someone - the criminal agrees with the enforcers. And for most people, the more you agree with me the cooler you are.
I don't subscribe to this view but if you want to know why people make a fuss of his apologizing then think of it as a salve for an average Joe who's life was briefly disturbed by hearing a killer was in their midst, and now shows signs of becoming a non-killer.
Personally I thought there were more important stories to cover.
-Sudz
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Originally posted by blur:
Or perhaps your rage comes from the fact that mommy and daddy didn’t pay enough attention to you when you were thirteen years old?
Yep that's it Blur, dam you're good!
Nice non personal attack - butt wipe.
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Come on Blur, were you retarded until the age of 18? I didn't think so. When I was 13 I knew the difference between a living person and a dead one and what the result would be if I shot someone in the face. They'd be dead, and they wouldn't come back. Now, it's been 13 years since I was 13, and kids are getting more mature at younger ages. This kid new exactly what he was doing, and sorry or not, I'd be happy to see him taken to the gas chamber.
If he was white and rich and my next door neighbor who mows my lawn, I'd feel the same way. Race has nothing to do with it.
SOB
BTW...the retarded bit wasn't a stab, just making a point. I knew right from wrong, alive from dead when I was 13, and I'm sure you did too.
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Kids know from a very young age what is alive, and what is dead. This was cold-blooded 1st degree murder, and probably a racist murder (teacher was white) but our society isn't ready to handle reverse-racism yet.
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Remember the Menendez brother's case? They blew away they parents using shotguns at the point blank range.
The defense pleaded for leniency arguing that the brothers are orphans.
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the kid knew what he was doing, unless he's mentally retarded, he knew. Scary thing is I bet he doesn't even serve 25 years. Couple of kids in England kidnapped a toddler from a mall, tortured him, killed him, and left him on the train tracks to get dismembered. They were 11 or so when they did this. At 18, they're released, given new identities for THEIR protection, and are allowed back into society. Well, at least we can see this isn't a US only problem. :( Great world we live in; glad I just have cats at the moment.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
At 18, they're released, given new identities for THEIR protection, and are allowed back into society.
Europe is civilized and sophisticated, you know. Not like the barbaric USA.
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]
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Originally posted by Nifty:
Great world we live in; glad I just have cats at the moment.
I used to feel that way too when I had no kids, but, you know what, you do worry alittle more, but the reward they give you in return outweighs everything else in life. Not only that, you can raise them to be responsible, good kids if you spend some quality time with them and invade their privacy until they're 18 ;)
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the legal idea of remorse after the crime is crucial to the treatment of the criminal.
there is a greater need to keep a cold remorseless person off the streets for a longer period of time than someone who shows remorse. why? because someone who shows remorse is less likely to repeat their act.
it is like sticking your finger in a light socket twice. if a person has no remorse then there is a high probability they will repeat their crime because their is no internal mechanism to stop them.
we all know that - that's why it's built into the law. and it should stay built into the law.
this is the crucial part though eagler: judges are supposed to exercise discretion and JUDGE whether said remorse is genuine or not - that's why we have them - some things like emotions or mental states require a human to judge their authenticity.
every worthless lieing lawyer is going to try to get their client off regardless of how heinous they are becuase they have sold their souls for money and the vanity that comes from winning more cases than their competitors.
the 1st thing they will do is lie and then they will get the defendant to lie if there is an advantage to it. in the end a lawyer isn't fulfilling what he interprets as his fiduciary duty to the client unless he tries like hell to get him off so....:
blame the judge!
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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oh and one more thing....sorry but:
"Did this kid harbor some vicious intent to kill? I doubt it. He was probably “screwing around” without the mental capacity to understand his actions. I remember running around playing cops and robbers at this age. The difference is that instead of air guns this kid had access to the real thing. Couple this with the fact that he apparently had no adult supervision and you have trouble."
that's the most nuts excuse i've ever heard. i hope you dont really believe that.
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Any of you here ever wondered why even the possibility of doing such a thing comes to a mind of child under 15 years old ?
I bet you that they were not born with a killer instinct....
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Any of you here ever wondered why even the possibility of doing such a thing comes to a mind of child under 15 years old ?
I bet you that they were not born with a killer instinct....
it's the music. has to be the music. no, it's the video games, must be the video games.
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nm
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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I don't see what the outrage is...
He did a horrible crime and is serving 28 years. There ya go. Are ya asking for this kid to be electrocuted or something? I doubt the public in general could stomache something like that. I couldn't.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
the kid knew what he was doing, unless he's mentally retarded, he knew. Scary thing is I bet he doesn't even serve 25 years. Couple of kids in England kidnapped a toddler from a mall, tortured him, killed him, and left him on the train tracks to get dismembered. They were 11 or so when they did this. At 18, they're released, given new identities for THEIR protection, and are allowed back into society. Well, at least we can see this isn't a US only problem. :( Great world we live in; glad I just have cats at the moment.
Did you get rid of your kids?
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Wow, there are people here who's opinions I haven't agreed with. But, for the most part, I've understood their point of view. Some of you wish to sanction the killing of a 14 year old boy. The fact that people like you exist is what make me wonder what the world is coming to...I was going to go on but there's no point, I wish there was.
:(
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He got a bum rap if you ask me, just like O.J.
I don't think he should be killed either Thrawn. I donate Nintendo's to prison children with bad raps foundation every Christmas.
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Come on Blur, were you retarded until the age of 18? I didn't think so. When I was 13 I knew the difference between a living person and a dead one and what the result would be if I shot someone in the face. They'd be dead, and they wouldn't come back. Now, it's been 13 years since I was 13, and kids are getting more mature at younger ages. This kid new exactly what he was doing, and sorry or not, I'd be happy to see him taken to the gas chamber.
At 13 I knew what sex was all about (I think)
I knew what driving was, and how important it was not to crash.
I knew what alcohol was, and that too much of it was bad for you (and other people
I knew it was important to go to school to get educated
I knew what drugs were, and to stay away from them
I knew what guns were, and how cool it would be to have one of my own (M10 was my favourite)
I don't think I should have been free to have sex, take drugs, smoke, drink, drive a car (even whilst not doing any of the others) own a gun or give up school, because I was not fully responsible
If you are going to treat kids like adults, give them all the rights and priveleges of adults. If they ain't old enough to vote screw or drink, they ain't old enough to get the death penalty either.
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Good point Nashwan. I say for all of the murderers under the age of 18...no, wait 21 (you can't drink until you're 21), I say for all of the murderers under the age of 21 that are sentenced to death, we first provide them with a hooker and a bottle of booze. Voting is kind of out of the question, since they've committed a felony. Fair enough?
SOB
Oh, and Thrawn, I'm not advocating the killing of a 13 year old boy, I'm advocating the execution of a 13 year old convicted murderer.
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Originally posted by SOB:
Oh, and Thrawn, I'm not advocating the killing of a 13 year old boy, I'm advocating the execution of a 13 year old convicted murderer.
Probably an unfair use of language on my part. But, that's how I see it.
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Didn't know what he was doing? YGBSM.
From CNN:
During the trial, the teen testified that he pointed the gun at Grunow because he would not let him speak to two girls in his class. Brazill, who was sent home earlier that day for a water balloon fight, testified that he cocked the .25 caliber pistol because he wanted Grunow to take him seriously, and the weapon went off. He said he thought the safety was on.
Prosecutors argued that Brazill brought the gun to school because he was angry about being suspended by another teacher for throwing water balloons. They said he was also upset because he was failing Grunow's class.
In his closing argument, assistant State Attorney Marc Shiner repeated his opening statement that a "storm was brewing" inside Nathaniel Brazill the day of the shooting last year.
Kurt Grunow said he was "very disappointed" with Brazill's conviction on the reduced charge
"This is first-degree murder anyway you look at it," he said. "You don't point a gun at someone and when it goes off ... call it an accident."
Prosecutors called a number of students who saw the shooting and a girl who said he made death threats just hours before the shooting. The most dramatic testimony came from Brazill himself during two days on the stand last week."
Yah, right. Didn't know what he was doing. Premeditation, pointing it at the head, cocking it.
:rolleyes:
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What I find curious is everyone is in agreement that he did it, and he is guilty as charged. However, like every other slam-dunk case, we have to devout 99% of the trial and media time into "The poor young man, he had such a bad, rough life to put him into this situation". Yup, let's feel sorry for the suspect/criminal rather than the victime.
Hello? <slap slap> There is a wife without a husband and children without a father because dweebo brought a gun to school and forgot that pulling the trigger makes it go bang.
Personally, the kid should get a booster seat and go sit in the nice, big electric chair. And as an act of kindness, hold my Saturn's Diehard battery and charge it up for me. :D <Just kidding guys, its a joke>
But really, for something as obvious as this case, I don't give a damn about this kids "rehabilitation" and such. He committed a crime and killed someone. He's going to learn a lesson he apparently couldn't learn from his mother: Responsibilty.
I wish him 28 loving years with "Bubba".
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: LePaul ]
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Originally posted by LePaul:
Personally, the kid should get a booster seat and go sit in the nice, big electric chair
lol
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Typically a criminal serves 1/2 time with good behavior. He will be out by 27.
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Hm, tough one when kids are involved.
Kids aren't granted the same rights as adults, i.e they do not receive the same priviledges. The natural question that comes as a result of this is: should they receive the same punishment?
Another aspect to take into account is the possibility of rehabilitation - something our criminal system is built around to a large extent. It is my opinion that kids generally have a better chance at this.
But, to deal with the original question: should it matter in regards to the punishment within the law onf the country the crime was committed that heis sorry and remorseful? Not one bit. Even for kids, responsibility is paramount. This is a harsh cause and effect lesson for this one, but not nearly as harsh a "lesson" as he gave to the teacher and his family.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Typically a criminal serves 1/2 time with good behavior. He will be out by 27.
Maybe. After 13 years with Bubba... :)
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There is absolutly no way that this kid "accidentally" shot his teacher. I knew when I was 11 years old how to fire a gun, and by 16 I have become a proficiant marksman. Reading his statement saying "I thought the safty was on" is an out-and-out lie. He knew the gun was ready to fire. He knew that it was loaded. He had the INTENT to kill this teacher because of rage he felt when he was suspended. There is no way he "accidentally" shot a teacher in the face from less than 20 feet. He wanted to shoot the teacher, he wanted him to pay for suspending him. Now he believes that if he says he's sorry, he can get away free. "I know you're sorry, but do you apoligize?"
And I swear that if the media and liberals and soccer moms say "The games he played and the music he listened to propted him to do this." There is a huge thread on the Day of Defeat forums about a guy wanting parents to sue Sierra (Half-Life creator) because the game was/is "too violent" It is not the music's fault he killed someone. It is not a game's fault he killed someone. It is his own damn fault.....
[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: texace ]
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"He doesn't need punishment - he needs 'gun-ishment'"
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Originally posted by blur:
Also this is a poor black kid. If he were rich and white would he be in the same predicament?
A society that eats its young is a society in decay.
Most of that post is absurd and edited out, but these points are easy targets.
If he was rich and white, would he be in the same predicament? Do you mean as far as acting like a animal and shooting a teacher in the face? I'd say no. Most rich kids are rich because they have successful, hard working parents. Usually, success comes by being reasonably intelligent. Not without exception, but it’s fair to assume that. I really don’t see where race plays a issue here though. This liberal roadkill stereotyping everyone that has had enough of the violent little toejams BUT the criminals who perpetrate these horrendous crimes is ridiculous.
I have no problem being prejudice against little gangbanging pieces of toejam, and if they tend to be young, black, shooting guns, acting like lawless barbarians, so be it. Join hands with him when he gets out of jail, sign songs of love and peace, and have him baby-sit your daughters. Me, I’m for killing the bastard, and showing the tape in schools like the bloody drivers Ed films.
As far as eating our young, I think that’s a nice nod to what nature intended. Get these criminals out of the gene pool, just like weak young getting eaten in the wild.
Have a nice day.
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I am sorry to have to but in at such a late date with this thread. But Eagler, you have such a clouded view of "Justice" that it is close to being unbelievable.
This kid is 14 years old. I would just like to make that point 14 He shot a teacher and killed him, which in all moral and physical senses is VERY wrong. Murder is the single biggest crime out there along with Rape. Both crimes are totally deplorable. But the main reason why I totally disagree with the death penalty is because of precisely that. Killing & Murder is wrong.
It seems like the Justice system in many States of the USA is totally dependant on Vengeance. Its the whole "If you hurt us we are going to hurt you back" syndrome.
If a 14 year old CHILD has the mental aptitude to go and KILL someone, then this child is in need of help. Send the little bastard to Prison, lock him up for 20 years but unless we do something to help him while he is there, then how is society ever going to function properly?
IMO, the process of Capital Punishment is wrong. Totally wrong. It's a Medieval practice from hundreds of years ago and has NO place in modern society. I really can't believe that in countries that are supposed to be civilised we can still resort to an action like this.
I personally find this thread very sad and hurtful. I also find it deplorable that any of you could condone killing a Child.
IMO you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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In the sense of knowing what killing was, I was no child at 14. Were you?
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Originally posted by Betown:
I personally find this thread very sad and hurtful. I also find it deplorable that any of you could condone killing a Child.
IMO you should be ashamed of yourselves.
No, the "kid" AKA Cold Blooded Murderer should be ashamed of himself. Right up until the time of his execution.
SOB
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Supposedly no parole.
From CNN:
Under that law, anyone convicted of carrying a gun during a crime faces 10 years in prison. Those who fire a gun during a crime face a mandatory 20 years in prison, and those who fire a gun, harming or killing someone during a crime face 25 years-to-life with no parole and no time deducted for good behavior
American Justice is about Vengeance? Not at all.
Zero Recidivism? ABSOLUTELY!
"Only one murder per customer, please! Wait in line, your turn on the gurney is coming."
Never had an exectued murderer commit another crime of any sort as far as I know.
[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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My personal take on it is this. If you are old enough to know how to use a firearm, then you are old enough to be executed for the murder of another human being. This kid got a burr up his bellybutton about failing in school, being suspended, and a load of other crap, then killed his teacher. I didn't do so hot in school, I had access to firearms, and you know what I did? Nothing. I got pissed at the teachers, voiced my opinion LOUDLY about them, but I never thought about taking a gun to school. Another kid in similar shoes as mine used a home-made bomb to blow out a wall of lockers about a week after I quit. Sent five people to the hospital, and the kid went off to juvy. How long he was there I don't know.
As far as the death penalty goes? I think you should get two appeals, taking no longer than five years. Once year six rolls around, I say we hand your bellybutton over to the Marines for "weapons testing" purposes. Maybe send you to a foriegn country to clear landmines by walking around the mine field. Since you commited a crime warranting a punishment of death, you should have the worst possible death. No honorable little walk to a small room with loved ones, no press coverage, no last meal request, nothing. Your sorry bellybutton is blasted into kibble for the local critters to feast on. Weapons testing makes the most sense to me; how else is the Army gonna know if their new gun can kill?
Yes, I am a BAD American! I also hold no love for those convicted with such over-whelming evidence. You kill an innocent, you get killed in the worst possible way.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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One of the more flavorful ironies is that now the folks that think "Justice" was a little harsh on this poor misunderstood toddler are complaining that the "gun used in a crime" law is WAY TOO HARSH!
Same folks that continue to pound in the idea that the EVIL, INANIMATE guns are the problem.
So, how 'bout we get this youngsters .25 auto, strap it down on the gurney and inject it will rampant rust? Show it on national TV and all?
Kid should go free, of course. Gun is the perp.
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thanks for the support guys, glad to see there are still some that share my views on such an atrocity.
Can't begin to image how it will affect the students that had to experience the horror 1st hand. Too bad he can't be tried for the mental anguish he cause and will cause them for the rest of their lives. Just what I'd want my child to experience at school...
Life is too precious for some street punk, no matter the age, to cut it short and then not pay for it. The 10, 20, life jail sentence is something relatively new since the election of Jeb Bush as our gov. Put a bleeding heart lib in there, with the right cabinet and it goes bye - bye, with those charged under it gaining the right for parole. I'd be surprised if the creep stays in jail past his 18th birthday.
The really sad part is this crap goes on just about everyday, somewhere in our great country. Until the punishment outweighs the thrill/benny of committing such crimes, it will continue to. A 1000 foot well with a human bug zapper at the bottom sounds good to me...give him time to think/pray on the way down.
My prayers go out to his family, friends & students.
[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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I actually agree with you totally up to a point eagler, I think that this little bastard should be locked away for a good many years! What he did was horrific and should be punished by the harshest way possible but I am completely against capital punishment. I have not always been against it. I used to think that Capital punishment was a good deterrent and it helped in making people safer. But in truth (imo) it's not. People will still get murdered if you have people being executed or not. So why can't we help people for the greater good of society?
And No guys, I am sorry but you can't tell me that if you are old enough to know how to fire a firearm then you are old enough to be executed for it because that isn't right. If someone leaves a loaded gun lying around then unless the kid doesn't watch TV he will know how to use it.
I agree that we need to punish and reform, but two wrongs don't make a right. By killing someone else in COLD BLOOD as retaliation for what they did makes us (imo) as bad as the person who comitia the crime.
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My personal take on it is this. If you are old enough to know how to use a firearm, then you are old enough to be executed for the murder of another human being
t was your average Tuesday morning at Theo J. Buell Elementary School, just north of Flint, Michigan. Six-year-old Kayla Renee Rolland was entering the hallway with 22 other first-graders when one of them, a boy she had quarreled with the day before, also 6, pulled a .32-caliber handgun out of his pocket. He shot her once in the chest, put the gun in a desk, and walked away.
Within minutes, Kayla was dead.
Fry the six year old bastard!
Dominique Wearing, 8, was killed by a handgun her 5-year-old brother retrieved from under their mother's bed.
5 year old scum like that should be lined up against a wall and shot.
Seriously, Flakbait, if you really meant what you wrote you are probably one of the sickest individuals it's ever been my misfortune to meet.
In the sense of knowing what killing was, I was no child at 14. Were you?
No, but like I said I knew what all the other things were too. Children are deemed to be too irresponsible to vote, because they're not mature enough to make sensible descisions. They aren't allowed to drive, even though every 10 year old knows what an accident is, knows people can die in them, probably even knows people who have been injured in a car accident. You wouldn't let a 10 year old drive on the roads though, would you?
If you believe a kid shouldn't be allowed to drive, or do any of the other things reserved for adults, it's hypocritical to say they are as responsible as adults for their actions. What is the purpose of the age limit on driving? Skill? watch kids playing video games and you'll see they have the same ability to learn the skills of driving as adults do.
14 is close to adulthood, and I wouldn't find the calls to execute the kid so repugnant if the same people making them also called for adult responsibility to begin at 14 in most other areas. How many support a school leaving age of 14, or the right to marry, especially without parental consent, at 14?
We do not trust children to make value judgements like these in most important areas, and whilst we accept they have a certain degree of freedom of decision, courts, the parents and public all believe a child at 14 is subject to parental control. What is the purpose of this if a child is as responsible as an adult?
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Killing children?
When will it ever stop?
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Saudi has probally got it right in this case..You take a life you lose your head!!!
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I still haven't figured out what is going through these kids heads when stuff like this happens.All i can go off of is what i knew as a youngster and at around 8 i had my own gun but only when my parents knew for a fact that i knew what i pointed that gun at and pulled the trigger wasn't coming back to life and was irreversable.I can only assume that they were not taught that but i think at 13 you have been to school long enough and have been around long enough to know what guns do by reading about the wars through out the world and by how many people lost there lives and they were do by using guns knives etc.I am not saying what he did was right or that he didn't know ,his lawers are just doing their jobs i think he knew exactly what he was doing and needs to do his time however with the prison system the way it is he will probably be released at 18 and be back in at around 19.this is just my opinion and everyone has one this is just mine. AV8 :)
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I still haven't figured out what is going through these kids heads when stuff like this happens.All i can go off of is what i knew as a youngster and at around 8 i had my own gun but only when my parents knew for a fact that i knew what i pointed that gun at and pulled the trigger wasn't coming back to life and was irreversable.I can only assume that they were not taught that but i think at 13 you have been to school long enough and have been around long enough to know what guns do by reading about the wars through out the world and by how many people lost there lives and they were do by using guns knives etc.I am not saying what he did was right or that he didn't know ,his lawers are just doing their jobs i think he knew exactly what he was doing and needs to do his time however with the prison system the way it is he will probably be released at 18 and be back in at around 19.this is just my opinion and everyone has one this is just mine. AV8 :) PS the reason he is sorry is probably he knows he is going to prison for awhile he is probably old enough to know what prison is and what gets you there,if he didn't before he does now :D
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Also this is a poor black kid. If he were rich and white would he be in the same predicament?
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In my mind anyone who murders should be treated with the same justice. Unfortunately it does not work like that.
At the very least this young man should never be allowed to re-enter the society I live in.
Yeaher
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Originally posted by Betown:
I actually agree with you totally up to a point eagler, I think that this little bastard should be locked away for a good many years! What he did was horrific and should be punished by the harshest way possible but I am completely against capital punishment. I have not always been against it. I used to think that Capital punishment was a good deterrent and it helped in making people safer. But in truth (imo) it's not. People will still get murdered if you have people being executed or not. So why can't we help people for the greater good of society?
Its called consequences, Betown. He killed, he should be killed. I am of the eye-for-an-eye approach. What he did is inexcusable. I used to not think too much about the death penalty until I saw that they get cozy prison terms, with cable TV, gym, 3 square meals a day and better health coverage than any of the HMOs I've had to date. His kind of acts prove he is not of value to society and if anything, will be a drain. Hear me again, what he did was not an "accident".
And No guys, I am sorry but you can't tell me that if you are old enough to know how to fire a firearm then you are old enough to be executed for it because that isn't right. If someone leaves a loaded gun lying around then unless the kid doesn't watch TV he will know how to use it.
Its not like this kind found it in the hall, you know. He with through the effort to grab it, take it to school and commit the crime. So, Betown, at what point do you Brits think responsiblity kicks in? You seem to favor the criminal over the victim.
I agree that we need to punish and reform, but two wrongs don't make a right. By killing someone else in COLD BLOOD as retaliation for what they did makes us (imo) as bad as the person who comitia the crime.
So you want no truth and consequences, we should "rehabilitate" this piece of trash so he can make good with the rest of his life. Hmmm, sorry, I respectfully disagree. He's a murderer and I'm just sad that our justice system doesn't have the balls to execute a killer, whether it be 14 or however old that youth was that killed the little boys out there in the UK. Kids like that are evil and if I ever had my draconian ways, they'd be executed for all to see on Pay Per View. Finally, the taxpayers could see their tax dollars at work, ridding society of those that try to harm it. Maybe its a "Brave New World" kinda thinking, but I am certainly tired of the wishy-washy emotion stories being played out daily that favors the suspects over the victims.
Flame away :)
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Could the people calling for this kid to be executed say if they favour any age limit for the death penalty, and if yes what that limit is?
Are you in favour of executing the 6 year old who killed his class mate? This was clearly a premeditated act, not an accident. Would you execute him?
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Of course they would Nashwan - because capital punishment is about vengeance.
I'm confused, Toad. The US operates capital punishment for capital crimes. Yet if zero recidivism worked, surely there would be no capital crime?
Or perhaps you simply aren't thorough enough? Should any killing be met with a capital sentence? Should manslaughter be met with capital punishment? The drunk driver who wipes out a whole family - should he be killed? Because, according to your theory no-one would ever drink-drive again, because of the consequences.
Where is the evidence of this perfect deterrent that leads to this 'zero recidivism' situation?
I look at your murder and rape crime rates and I can't see how it works...
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Do you have an example of a criminal who was executed and then committed another crime?
No deterrent can be 100% effective to would-be criminals. Also, you can't realistically take any statistics from today and try to equate them to the death penalty not being an effective deterrent. It's simply to rare of an occurance to be a factor.
Anyhow, you already live in the eutopia that is the United Kingdom. Why would you care to muck with this vengeful, backwards-arsed country that is the United States? We ain't worth your trouble.
SOB
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Remember, the death penalty is not a deterrent, its a punishment..if it deters then that's gravy on the goose.
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Originally posted by kreighund:
Remember, the death penalty is not a deterrent, its a punishment..if it deters then that's gravy on the goose.
Of all the volume of words and arguments written on the death penalty on this board ... the above statement is the clearest and most concise argument I have seen ... for both sides of the issue.
<S> kreighund
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I'm still waiting for someone to say what age limit on executions they would favour.
Aren't any of you prepared to face up to a difficult question like that?
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Originally posted by kreighund:
Remember, the death penalty is not a deterrent, its a punishment..if it deters then that's gravy on the goose.
(http://www.creators.com/0722/wiz/wiz0724g.gif)
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
I'm still waiting for someone to say what age limit on executions they would favour.
Aren't any of you prepared to face up to a difficult question like that?
What does age have to do with it? This is about the ability to truely comprehend what happens when you shoot someone in the face with a gun. At 13 I believe just about any normal person has this comprehension. Below that I'd bet quite a few do as well, how about letting a psychologist figure it out?
In any case, I'm still for the hooker and booze before the execution. That was a good idea.
SOB
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Dowding,
Better look up recidivism in a dictionary. Here, I'll do it for you.
"a tendency to relapse into a previous condition or mode of behavior; especially : relapse into criminal behavior"
Ever seen the SAME PERSON commit a capital crime after being executed?
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I believe the phrase that springs to mind is...
...doh! :D
[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Just a little semantic message here :)
How do you deter a rock from rolling down a hill?
You can't. It's dead matter, it has no thought processes that we know of and thus cannot be deterred.
How do you deter a corpse from committing a crime? See above.
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I hate to say it but I agree with Nash.
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(http://www.wardogs.org/jihad/chair.gif)
He needs a ride in 'Old Sparky'.
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What's the legal age for buying or owning a handgun in the US? 18, isn't it?
Why is it so high if kids know at 14 what a gun is for, and what happens when you shoot someone?
Could it be because society, and the law, don't consider them responsible enough at that age to own a handgun?
So at age 14 society says you are not responsible enough to own a handgun, but if you manage to aquire one you are just as responsible for the consequences as an adult would be.
Not responsible enough to own one, fully responsible for the consequences. See the hyprocracy here?
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You know what else? I think we should make a law that just plain eliminates every tenth kid born in the USA. Our society is so violent, I'm sure we'd nip a few of them in the bud. And those who weren't RedRum material that were killed, well, they probably would've been victims anyway. Maybe we could call it, "Cleaning the streets before it gets dirty," or something like that. God Bless America!!!
:p
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Good point Nashwan. The poor kid shouldn't have even been brought to trial. Also, by your logic, if I get my hands on say, a shoulder-fired stinger missile and shoot a commercial airliner down with it I shouldn't be accountable for my actions? I mean, afterall the US government doesn't consider me as a private citizen responsible enough to own one.
You'll have to excuse me now. It's time to head up to PDX for some target practice! Woooohoooooo....beats shootin' squirrels with a bb gun by a mile!
SOB
[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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SOB,
Are all your comments sarcastic because you can't come up with a suitable adult argument or do you just enjoy pissing people off? People who take cracks at my country pisses me off even more. The reason for this is because, I like you are a Patriot.
Over here in Britain, Murders, Rapes, Child molesting, Paedophilia, Burglary and Shoplifting all happen just like in all other countries in the world. Britain is not a Utopia but I like to think that with our anti gun laws we help a lot.
Personally, I am a war freak like the rest of yas :) I love to go out into the fields and woodland around my house and shoot rabbits, duck & pheasants. But I think that not being able to own a pistol or an automatic rifle in this country is a great advantage because people don't get killed as much :)
Until I first started using pistols with the forces I never understood how they worked. Every bastard on the planet knows that you point and squeeze, but everything else eluded me.
How many people of an age between 16,18 in the US know how/have fired a gun in the United States of America?
I think America is a wonderful country. I have visited there and to be honest your Steak Houses RULE! but IMO I find it hard to comprehend how you guys can walk down the street knowing that people around you can legally have a pistol in there handbag, briefcase or tucked into the waistband of there trousers.
That is what I find most frightening about the USA.
Kids that know how to fire guns..... I blame the parents.
:(
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Originally posted by Betown:
Over here in Britain, Murders, Rapes, Child molesting, Paedophilia, Burglary and Shoplifting all happen just like in all other countries in the world. Britain is not a Utopia but I like to think that with our anti gun laws we help a lot.
i think what people in britain (and europe in general)often don't understand about america is the sense of urgency we feel when it comes to crime. there's no room for social experiment because it is out of hand. at least where i live.
though europe is no utopia you don't face anywhere near the level of ongoing violent crime as we do in america. almost everyone here has been affected in some very close and relevant way. most people in favor of drastic measures didnt just wake up one day and say "yeah that's it!"...
it's more like the years of exposure to our pointless, corrupt, detached, revolving door legal system and no faith in the law to keep you safe- mixed with the everpresent violence in the streets in the news and everywhere else just make you consider more drastic options.
cops are so afraid of lawsuits they can't function as they should - i am surprised a psychologist doesnt ride along in each squad car to make sure they dont hurt anyones feelings or destroy some criminal's self worth!
i think many in favor of harsh treatment of criminals wouldn't be if they didn't feel we were at that stage. deterrence is the least of my concerns i just want less of those people around period! our jails are spilling over with them as it is- spend a few years here before you write us off as hopeless - or better yet stay home, enjoy your family and avoid becoming a casualty of our crime problem. ;)
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Originally posted by Betown:
SOB,
Kids that know how to fire guns..... I blame the parents.
:(
It's not a matter of blaming the parents that a kid knows how to fire a gun. Anyone can pull a trigger. Intentional or accident. That's how very young kids kill, and no I would not condon the killing of a 5 year old who found his dad's pistol and then shot his sibling or friend. I'd charge the father. I'd charge kids/young adults as this 14 year was, when it is premeditated. The uncle of this punk can and should be brought up on charges for not properly securing the pistol used in this crime. If it had a trigger lock and the uncle had the key, possibly in a gun safe, the twerp would have had to find another way to vent his anger, possibly less fatal.
Back to the original post, the reasons given for the "I'm sorry" crap seem just that. What moron lawyer would not push his client to sit up there, maybe with tears in his eyes and confess how "sorry" he is, all for nothing really greater than a reduced sentence. And to say it's up to the judge/jury to decipher if the "I'm sorry" is genuine or not, further illustrates how screwed and flawed the entire idea is. It shouldn't be let's make a deal. It should be, you commit this crime, you do this time/sentence. Crime X = Sentence Y. Period. Takes that whole human emotional crud out of the equation.
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IMO, the mistake many people here are making is focusing on whether or not the kid knew the consequences of his actions. Of course he did. Unfortunately, most kids do today.
The kid was displaying psycopathic behaviour. He had poor to no impulse control. But the thing is... neither had YOU as a kid.
Kids HAVE poor to no impulse control - it's an acquired skill. I know I did some dumb things as a kid, knowing the consequences but just brushing them aside. If you claim you never did, well... I claim you are lying.
In a way, all kids are psycopaths. And we all were. The good thing is... we grow out of it. Unless we're sentenced to death first, that is. Until we DO grow out of it, our parents and society must protect us from ourselves. When this fails, the results WILL be horrible.
Yes, fourteen is just on the border where he should have been able to control himself. Here (Sweden) you go to court once you're fifteen, fully responsible around 18. But some kids ARE slower.
Kids live in a fantasy world, where fiction and facts mix freely and both can be brushed aside easily.
SOB, regarding the stinger missile example. We (well, those of us who aren't americans! *grin* ) ban people who have displayed irresponsible behaviour from owning guns. Thus we try to strike a balance between allowing those who NEED guns to have them while keeping them out of the hands of those who would use them to cause harm. It is a calculated risk. Guns WILL be used to cause harm. As with everything, it's a compromise between the cost and the benefits. As for allowing people to have their own private stingers... the benefits aren't there and the potential cost is very steep indeed. Of course you know this but chose to forget it to take easy points. Sorry, mate, no points awarded. :D
Enough amateur psychology for today. Over and out.
Cheers,
/ft
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BeTown...don't get too bent out of shape. I was just giving Dowding a little bit of toejam. No harm intended. :) I hold no grudge against the UK, and frankly know very little about your legal system. Also, I don't really care...I don't live there, so it's none of my business.
I can be a sarcastic bastard tho'. I layed it on pretty thick for Nashwan because I think the point he's trying to make is rediculous. However, I think I made my opinion pretty clear throughout this post...
I'm a proponent of the death penalty. This "kid" was old enough to know what he was doing with that gun, and what would happen after he shot his teacher in the face. Therefor, in my opinion, the kid should be executed.
For vengence? Yes.
So I don't have to pay to keep his worthless arse fed, clothed & sheltered? Yes.
So he won't commit another crime after his release? Yes.
SOB
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I've gotta disagree with ya FT. It sounds like you're saying every kid has the potential to murder someone if they have the opportunity and the access to the weapon. I simply don't believe this to be the case.
I was the new kid in town when I started middle school at the age of 13 and was pretty scrawny and shy to boot. I got picked on a lot. I also knew, because he showed them to me and discussed how I was NOT to touch them without him present, that my father kept a double-barrel shotgun and a 9mm semi-auto pistol in his bedroom. Not once did the thought ever cross my mind to take one of those and use it to shoot one of the bullies.
Fortunately for me I experienced a nice growth spurt in my Freshman year of high school followed shortly thereafter by a job throwing around heavy boxes at the local grocery store and the bullies miraculously disappeared! :D
I'll admit the stinger bit was a stretch, but it illustrated my point. Just because the kid isn't thought to be responsible enough to own a fiream, doesn't give him free liscence to do what he pleases with one if he gets access to one and then not be responsible for his actions.
SOB
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Originally posted by Betown:
How many people of an age between 16,18 in the US know how/have fired a gun in the United States of America?
Probably the majority.
Originally posted by Betown:
I think America is a wonderful country. I have visited there and to be honest your Steak Houses RULE! but IMO I find it hard to comprehend how you guys can walk down the street knowing that people around you can legally have a pistol in there handbag, briefcase or tucked into the waistband of there trousers.
That is what I find most frightening about the USA.
Without those firearms the US would still be a UK colony.
The Bill of Rights included the "Right to bear arms" for the very specific reason that if it ever became necessary to change the goverment by force, the citizens would have the means to do so.
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Originally posted by SOB:
I've gotta disagree with ya FT. It sounds like you're saying every kid has the potential to murder someone if they have the opportunity and the access to the weapon. I simply don't believe this to be the case.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. That is in fact what I am saying. Every kid has this potential at a young age. Step by step, we learn to control our impulses and our agression and make known consequences part of the equation at all times. Most of us are way beyond shooting someone way before age twelve I think. I may be biased here though as I also grew up using guns for markmanship and had where not to point guns rubbed into me early and thoroughly.
I was the new kid in town when I started middle school at the age of 13 and was pretty scrawny and shy to boot. I got picked on a lot. I also knew, because he showed them to me and discussed how I was NOT to touch them without him present, that my father kept a double-barrel shotgun and a 9mm semi-auto pistol in his bedroom. Not once did the thought ever cross my mind to take one of those and use it to shoot one of the bullies.
Ditto. Ditto. And ditto. But two years before that? Two years more? I guess our parents knew when we could be trusted and protected us until, but not beyond, that point. Clearly, this kids uncle (it was his uncle's gun, right?) either didn't care or seriously misjudged the kid. :(
I'll admit the stinger bit was a stretch, but it illustrated my point. Just because the kid isn't thought to be responsible enough to own a fiream, doesn't give him free liscence to do what he pleases with one if he gets access to one and then not be responsible for his actions.
Of course not. But IMO the legal action in this case should be towards whoever provided the gun. Society and the kid would probably both benefit more from him getting help to grow up into a responsible, mature human. Of course I for one would want him monitored closely as well, making sure and double sure that he isn't an actual psycopath after all. After all, he IS 14. Not seven.
It IS a tough judgement call. But shouldn't "until proven guilty" apply in these cases as well? We grow up gradually. We should have to shoulder responsibilities gradually.
Oh. Unrelated interesting observation here. The pro-capital punishment side seems be convinced that us on the other side are acting on emotions. Since when did revenge and desire for punishment cease to be emotions? I see a lot of that indeed! Food for thought?
Cheers,
/ft
P.S. It can't be the video games. If it was, the Pac Man generation would be spending their spare time in dark rooms, listening to repetitive, monotonuous music and eating pills these days... Waitaminnit... Ooops!
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Sob, I don't claim kids bear no responsibility for their actions. In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Below that age you can't be charged with a crime. Between 10 and 18, kids are treated differently by the legal system, and recieve lesser sentences than adults would. There are degrees of responsibility, and all legal systems round the world recognise that fact.
I am glad to say that the US supreme court, and almost all state courts, as well as the UN, are closer to my position than yours. All ban execution of children, in the US
before age 16, for the UN before 18. From what i have seen, the only country that in recent years has executed a child (officaly) is Yemen, where a 13 year old was publicly hanged along with several adults. Even the citizens of Yemen, a rather remote, fundamentalist, almost medievel Islamic state, were shocked, and the government banned executions of children below 18.
SOB, would you advocate lowering the age for buying a handgun to 13? After all, children that age are responsible enough to be safe with a handgun, according to your views.
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Just put the little bastard in prison until he reachs the age of 18 THEN fry his bellybutton since he's considered an adult. ;)
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Eagler wrote:
"It should be, you commit this crime, you do this time/sentence. Crime X = Sentence Y. Period. Takes that whole human emotional crud out of the equation."
this brazill case was crap, but if you did what you suggest above we would have to get rid of things like second degree murder which have a lot to do with the emotional state of the accused.
under your proposal, if you killed some guy fist fighting over an argument in a bar on accident you would get the same time as a guy who planned a homicide.
the law is there to punish the guy who killed in a fit of rage and regrets it, less severely than the guy who planned it out coldly and is satisfied with his work.
it's not like they get off they just get less time - so the punishment fits the crime better.
in this case the defendant's 'crocodile regret' shouldn't matter because of the nature of his crime. he can't cool down in the time it takes to walk home and get a pistol then he should be kept out of society whether he regrets it or not- in other cases i think it should be considered.
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Where did I say children that young were responsible enough to be safe with a handgun? I said they're old enough to know the consequences of shooting someone in the face. How does one translate to the other?
I stated my opinion several times...look up to my responce to BeTown for a summary. Add to that the fact that I wouldn't be opposed to the kid waiting until his 18th birthday to face excecution, and that's all there is. I'm not really interested in following you off on your tangent anymore.
SOB
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I follow ya Fishy, but you could just modify it a little to make it workable I think. Crime W + Intent X + Circumstances Y = Sentence Z. There are already laws for mandatory sentencing like this; race-related crimes as an example. Of course, there will always be some things left up for interpretation by a judge, but it'd be nice for a criminal to know that his plans for murder should include being executed if he is caught.
SOB
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One thing worth considering about the death penalty.
Consider the case of someone killing intentionally or by some mistake, another person. Say a drug deal gone bad, or some similar affair that makes it possible for the guy who did it tyo be considered as having done it intentionally.
This guy now knows that society is out to seek and destroy him. There is no way out, there is nothing to do. Except fight for your life to try to stay alive as long as possible.
You'll die if caught anyhow, so what does a few more deaths mean? Not one thing. In desperation, you'd do anything to try to preserve your life - including trying to kill cops or anyone that get in your way.
Should the criminal ahve thought of it beforehand? Yes. Are people rational all the time? no, and especially not criminals or people with a low education.
To me, punishment is all about "what's best for society". I measure the loss/gains and see the punishment on that basis. I am not sure the death penalty overall score is good enough to warrant it, and that is even without taking into consideration the moral arguments.
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Scary that it is so easy for this kid to get a gun....
Broes