Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 1776 on October 10, 2001, 07:49:00 PM
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How is "God Bless America" offensive displayed anywhere in America?
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i'm not the least bit religious and it doesnt bother me. i guess you have to have something propping yer back door open to be offebded by that if ya know what i mean. ;)
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Don't bother me.
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i don't think you can say "god bless america " in schools , but i could be wrong
someone said on 9-11 ,everyone could pray except kids in public schools
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This country was founed on religion so why is it wrong. I say to the kids stand your ground if you want to pray, pray the hell with those that dont.
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Actually, this country isn't founded on religion.
It's founded on basic rights.
The religious beliefs didn't become a part of our society until recently (past 70 years). Pennies from 1940 didn't have "In God We Trust" (atleast I don't recall seeing it). Kids in public schools are not allowed to pray, nor are they allowed to say anything related to any religion.
Seperation of church and state.
There are entirely too many religions in this country to say that we are founded and based on one- although there is a majority, and they tend to go to private or religious schools where they are allowed to practice their faith freely because they are among like minded individuals.
I've seen the signs (well bed sheets with words written in marker or crayon or wax) with "God Bless America", and me being vehemently anti-semite (is that how you spell it?).... well I really thought nothing of it.
It doesn't bother me nor offend me. Just the other day we had older men handing out the "New Testament" at my local college. I was offered one several times by different men. I politely refused. They didn't force it on me, but other kids did take them. I make no judgement calls on that, if it helps them get along or feel better about something- more power to them.
It's when it's shoved in my face and I'm forced to accept it, that I despise it.
So far, I believe it's a reaction to these recent events and the people that are handing out their religious beliefs on the street corners, or hanging them from bridges, are simply doing it to get them and other like minded individuals through these rough times.
In other words, I whole heartedly support it so long as it doesn't interfere with my preferences. Which it hasn't, and never will so long as the US of A exists.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Actually, this country isn't founded on religion.
The religious beliefs didn't become a part of our society until recently (past 70 years). Pennies from 1940 didn't have "In God We Trust" (atleast I don't recall seeing it). Kids in public schools are not allowed to pray, nor are they allowed to say anything related to any religion.
actually that is not true. This country was wholly Christian in faith in its infancy. It doesnt take alot of looking to prove it either. It wasn't till the past 70 years that Christianity in this country was given any real competition in idealism. One instance that come to mind is the Scopes-monkey trial in Dayton Tenn. And in more present times the ACLU is foremost in the lead to squelch any kind public display of Prayer or Christian faith practice.
Seperation of Chruch and State-- hmmm so you believe that the founding fathers had in mind that their should be no guidance from god in leading of this country? I dont think that is what was meant by this. The Catholic church had become a huge political power in Europe and they didnt not want to see the same oppresive nature of what it was in England reside in the New Country. I dont believe for one minute that this country was founded on anything less than a strong faith in Jesus Christ. God was accepted as Lord, and Supreme.
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There's a difference between founded on and founded by.
Founded by Christians. Not founded on Christianity.
Atleast that's how I see it.
"hmmm so you believe that the founding fathers had in mind that their should be no guidance from god in leading of this country?"
I don't understand this. I said seperation of church and state to back up my statement about state schools not allowing religion in them.
Obviously any leader of the US has Christianity backing him, or atleast he tells the public that, it's what wins elections.
Do I believe a god, any god, should be used to guide your decisions?
If he's up there, he sure never listened or replied to me, so I don't understand how you can be guided by something...
eh nevermind this is going to be a rediculously long argument for no benefit other than we both won't see eye to eye.
-SW
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I thought it wuz Dinty Moore Beef Stew.
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This country was founded largely on principles laid out in Plato's "Republic". I don't think anyone would accuse Plato of being Christian. SOME of the founding fathers were active Christians. Others (judging by their writings) were of a more metaphysical bent. To say that the founding fathers were "wholly Christian" is an overstatement. To say that the United States was founded on Christian principles is uninformed. The "under God" in the Pledge of allegiance is a fairly recent addition.
Personally, as a permament resident of the U.S. eligible for citizenship, I find the "under God" a major philosophical stumbling block to my becoming a citizen of a country that I've grown to love, admire & support.
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Originally posted by Red Ant:
This country was founded largely on principles laid out in Plato's "Republic". I don't think anyone would accuse Plato of being Christian. SOME of the founding fathers were active Christians. Others (judging by their writings) were of a more metaphysical bent. To say that the founding fathers were "wholly Christian" is an overstatement. To say that the United States was founded on Christian principles is uninformed. The "under God" in the Pledge of allegiance is a fairly recent addition.
Personally, as a permament resident of the U.S. eligible for citizenship, I find the "under God" a major philosophical stumbling block to my becoming a citizen of a country that I've grown to love, admire & support.
GET HIM !! HE'S UN AMERICAN !!! COMMIE SLEEPER !! GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY NOW !!! YEEEHHHHHAAAA !!
:D
<g,d,r>
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Originally posted by john9001:
i don't think you can say "god bless america " in schools , but i could be wrong
someone said on 9-11 ,everyone could pray except kids in public schools
That is total BS. Kids could pray just fine in school. It's just that the teachers of public schools cannot make them pray or lead them in prayer.
If you are trying to raise you kid as an atiest, do you want someone making your young and impressionable child pray?
If you are a christian and the teacher happens to be of the different religion/denomination, would you want him/her to lead your children in prayer? Roll out prayer rugs and pray towards Mecca? Sacrifice a chicken? Sing Hare Krishna? Burn incense in front of six-armed figurine of a naked woman? Worship spirits? Perform shaman dance? Talk to the ancestors?
How do you imagine that working in a public school?
miko
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You can pray in school, it's just that you can't have lead prayers. It's a fairly recent change down here. There used to be a prayer before high school football games over the PA system. I think it stopped during my sophomore or junior year. The kids don't have prayers, but I guarantee you our school offices do. I politely bow my head out of respect for my co-workers when they pray, yet I do not join them. I'm glad there isn't lead prayer in schools. I know first hand how the kids that didn't believe in the majority would feel.
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I see it all now Wulf,... you dont belive in god.
This clears alot of things up as to why you are always so negitive. You havn't seen the light.
This country was based on The faith in GOD. It was based on Christian Beliefs and Ideals.
Politics are an Evil, its pretty lame that over time people have worried more about being politically correct than rightously right for praise of God.
Obviously any leader of the US has Christianity backing him, or atleast he tells the public that, it's what wins elections.
Praise GOD. Praise Jesus for it. I only hope that We have leaders that are lead by the lord.
If he's up there, he sure never listened or replied to me, so I don't understand how you can be guided by something...
Have you really actually asked for him?
I gaurentee that you will receive an Answer if you do, and when you do, you will know the truth.
Knock, and the door will be opened... just have to do it.
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I don't belive God has joined any religion. I've never heard anyone claim as much. I figure He knows way more about it than I do. If he ever does endorse one. Thats the one I'm joining. Then I'll know God is on our side.
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I'd say that a lot of what this country is/has become is based on the beliefs and ideas of those old dudes that wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Take TJ for example....
"The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error."
Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.
Benjamin Franklin's religious beliefs? Six months before his death in 1790, Franklin summed up his religious creed in a letter to Ezra Stiles:
"I believe in one God, creator of the Universe. That he governs it in his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we can render to Him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them tous, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend that it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy muself with it now, when expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.
I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the Goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously thro' a long life, I have no doubt of its Continuance in the next, though without the smallest Conceit of meriting such Goodness."
John Adams?
"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."
-- letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, quoted from Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-- letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
So, to me... Religious Tolerance was a key ingredient. There's also clearly some warning or suspicion of what a lack of tolerance brings.
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No Deez, I am negative towards you because everytime I read something from you I am absolutely astonished you made it this far in life without being admitted to a nut house.
-SW
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Toad is not someone that you want to bicker with if you dont know what your talking about..
<S>
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Thx Pongo.
I know we've "crossed keyboards" a few times and don't always agree but you are also one of the ones that can and do present well-reasoned and supported arguments.
<S>
BTW, once you wrote something about us Americans that I should have clipped. It was poetry. Something to the effect of what we have given when we didn't have too.
I've searched for that a few times since, without luck.
Twas beautiful. Wish I could find it. Salute for that one too.
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You can read any words that you want from the founding father and clearly read they all had varying beliefs and ideals. Yet they made it clear that one sects views should not hold supreme rule over governing bodies, lest you have a protestant rule of terror as in England.
Jefferson has said many a time that this country was not a "Christian" Nation. The Pledge of Alligiance was changed without the authors approval when it added, "Under God" to it. I believe it was near 1923 or so when Congress gave the Pledge credence after it appeared many years before in a Reader's Digest book.
It wasn't until the 1950's that the Knights of Columbus talked the "Godless" communist fearing leaders of America to drop "E Pluribus Unim" from the country's major motto and enlist the "In God we Trust" motto.
You may feel free to believe in what ever god u wish, but do NOT think that everyone in this country of FREE WORSHIP should only be free to worship ur beliefs. I will not let any man, woman or child infringe on my beliefs, nor will I allow them to infringe upon any that wish it not.
This Nation is NOT an Xian nation, and the day it becomes one in government rule is the day it will not resemble a Democracy any longer.
When it comes to prayer in school, miko said it best. I haven't met 1 person if it'd be ok for someone of another religion to lead a prayer to their kids, say yes, it'd be ok. Ppl's children wouldn't need prayer in school if they'd friggin study more.
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me being vehemently anti-semite
Uh, I think you goofed here, Swulfe. Anti-semite means Anti-Jew. AKA Nazi or just plain racist. You want all Jews to go away or some such.
Like I said, I think you meant the opposite, and didn't know what the words mean in English.
Hans.
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Quote:
"I will not let any man, woman or child infringe on my beliefs, nor will I allow them to infringe upon any that wish it not."
I agree, except for the "child" part. I don't feel any particular threat from a child. And i will say or write "God Bless America" anywhere, anytime i choose to do so. If you don't like it, too bad.
BTW, "Xian" means what? I don't read Chinese. Certainly, a freedom-loving, enlightened fellow like yourself didn't mean to insult anyone's particular Religion now, did you??
Cabby
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I didn't feel like spelling Christian so phonics works for me.
:)
By child I mean teenager mostly. I can think of one particular case where a teenage girl killed herself because of verbal and physical abuse from her peers because of her beliefs. Yet no school official would raise their voice in defense of her....
Last year I also went to a local school to hammer the school officials because of the way a friends daughter was getting treated at school. And I'm not just talking about a few name calling incidents either.
[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Wingnut_0 ]
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Yeah I did not mean that Hans.
I guess it's anti-semetic? Whatever the word is for religious.. I forget.
-SW
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Toad has quite eloquently pointed out that the USA isn't a Christian theocracy. I'll add some more:
Thomas Jefferson:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
One MUST take into account just what the Church Of England was like - these were the nice Christian dudes he is talking about. they weren't very pleasant at all.
John Adams:
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
Pretty clear.
Mr Thomas Paine:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."
Wow. Decidedly against the bible, this one.
James Madison:
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
The Founding Fathers were VERY conscious about setting the US up so that it would NOT be a Christian state. That there's a large and widespread misconception out there is regrettable, but at least it's possible to disprove it.
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Come to the dark side Santa.
muhahahahhahaha!
;)
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I have also read that Church attendance records show that the early Americans weren't particularly more religious than Americans today -- though you could still burn the occasional witch without much trouble from the community :)
Charon
This book covers a lot of the mythology that is preached as gospel today:I Love Paule Revere, Whether He Rode or Not (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006092330X/qid=1003181599/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_10_7/107-9197637-3475756)
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]