Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on March 02, 2006, 04:10:51 PM
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This one was in the WSJ yesterday, they headlined it as "Detroit's Symbol of Dysfunction", it outlines just one of the egregious way's America's automakers have shot themselves in the foot in terms of being competetive in the world market. Can't fit the entire article, the rest is availble online here:
Automakers Pay Thousands of Idled Workers in Jobs Bank (http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834449676&path=!business&s=1037645507703)
Automakers pay thousands of idled workers in Jobs Bank
Program, which began as a stopgap, now adds to competitive burden that U.S. companies must bear
The Wall Street Journal
FLINT, Mich. - In his 34 years working for General Motors Corp., one of Jerry Mellon's toughest assignments came in January. He spent a week in what workers call the "rubber room." The room is a windowless old storage shed for engine parts. It is filled with long tables, Mellon said, and has space for about 400 employees. They must arrive at 6 a.m. each day and stay until 2:30 p.m., with 45 minutes off for lunch. A supervisor roams the aisles, signing people out when they want to use the restroom.
This is the "Jobs Bank," a 20-year-old program under which nearly 15,000 autoworkers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many do volunteer jobs or go back to school. The rest must clock time in the rubber room or something like it.
It is called the rubber room, Mellon said, because "a few days in there makes you go crazy."
The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies, including Ford Motor Co., is likely to cost about $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese automakers with big U.S. operations prosper.
Though GM often blames "legacy costs" such as retiree health care and pensions for its troubles, its Job Bank shows that the company has inflicted some wounds on itself. Documents show that GM itself helped originate the Jobs Bank idea in 1984 and agreed to expand it in 1990, seeing it as a stopgap until times got better and workers could go back to the factories.
"The bank was designed for a different time, a time when we were growing," said Pete Pestillo, a former Ford executive who oversaw union talks.
Mellon, 55, the father of two, was born in Flint. He joined GM in 1972, following his grandfather and his father, a plant foreman who spent 37 years at GM. Through the 1980s and 1990s, Mellon held jobs designing electronic systems for vehicle prototypes. In 2000, GM merged two engineering divisions, and he wasn't needed anymore.
Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits.
About 7,500 GM workers are in the Jobs Bank, more than double the figure a year ago. Each one costs GM $100,000 to $130,000 in wages and benefits, according to internal union and company figures, meaning that GM's total cost this year is likely to be between $750 million and $900 million.
One way that employees in the Jobs Bank can fulfill their requirements is to attend eight- or 12-week classes offered by GM. In these classes, Mellon has studied crossword puzzles, watched Civil War movies and learned about "man-made marvels like the Brooklyn Bridge," he said. One class taught him how to play Trivial Pursuit.
More recently, he attended an institute in Flint called the Royal Flush Academy. It is designed for those looking for work in casinos - the Detroit area has several - and teaches students to deal blackjack and poker. Mellon said he isn't interested in casino work and left the academy after they docked his pay because he was 10 minutes late coming back from lunch. With that he arrived at the rubber room.
Every day for a week Mellon got up at 4:30 a.m. to make the 45-minute commute to the rubber room from his home in Otisville. At first he read the newspaper or magazines lying around. He talked some with acquaintances. After conversation dried up, he said he spent hours staring at the wall, hoping that time would move faster.
The waiting "makes you want to bang your head against the wall," Mellon said. "I couldn't take it. I need to be doing something. And there is a supervisor who walks around staring at everyone. It's worse than high-school detention."
Mellon said he thinks that a "line-worker mentality" keeps people going back to the rubber room. "A lot of guys sit in that room and just collect their paycheck because they don't know what else to do," he said. "They've spent 20 years tightening a nut as it came down the line. They are faced with this harsh reality, and they are just happy the paycheck still comes so they can put their kid through college."
Mellon soon found a way to escape the room, through volunteering. That is what many of his fellow workers do. Dean Braid, 50, worked at GM as an engine and transmission tester for 21 years. Today, GM pays him $30 an hour as he helps a high-school friend, Doug Kahn, who is confined to a wheelchair.
GM employees constitute slightly more than half of the 14,700 autoworkers in the Jobs Bank. In second place with 3,000 Jobs Bank workers is Delphi, the auto-parts maker that filed for bankruptcy-court protection in October. The Chrysler unit of DaimlerChrysler AG has 2,500, and Ford has 1,100. Executives expect the total to rise to more than 17,000 next year, as the Detroit companies prepare to shed more than 60,000 jobs.
Pestillo, the former Ford executive, and others see the Jobs Bank as a corrosive influence with significant indirect costs because it encourages automakers to build more vehicles than consumers want. Companies figure that it is better to build cars with little or no profit margin than to pay people not to work, he said. They also may keep rote work in-house even though it would be cheaper to outsource.
The system gives older union workers little incentive to move to other plants, find jobs at other companies or retire. There is no limit on how long a worker can stay in the Jobs Bank. They don't have to look for work at their company. Contracts allow workers to turn down any job offer at a site farther than 50 miles from their home plant.
The Jobs Bank has its origins in the tough times that Detroit faced in the late 1970s and early 1980s. A spike in oil prices, a harsh recession and the first major assault from fuel-efficient Japanese cars hammered the Big Three and cost tens of thousands of union jobs. The UAW agreed to its first concessionary contracts in 1982 with the Big Three, which then made three out of every four vehicles sold in America.
That was the backdrop when the UAW contract at GM came up for renewal in 1984. GM put forward a one-paragraph memo proposing the creation of an "employee-development bank". The idea was to help train or find jobs for senior UAW workers who would "otherwise be permanently laid off" because of better technology or higher productivity.
Once the idea was on the table, GM agreed to expand it as the UAW ratcheted up pressure for a deal. A strike at a few locals was gradually spreading to engulf more than half the company.
The two sides reached a deal to end the strike Sept. 21, 1984. The UAW told its workers that their jobs were "more secure than ever in history." The UAW view, which continues to this day, was that the Jobs Bank would force GM and other automakers to find work for union members because no company would keep paying people not to work.
Ford made a similar deal shortly afterward. John Slosar, a former Ford executive in labor relations, recalls: "We just focused on matching each other back then, not 'Hey, this will disadvantage us to the Asian automakers.'"
Workers whose plants shut down don't immediately go into the Jobs Bank. They first receive unemployment benefits supplemented by the company. When the cumulative length of shutdowns during a contract reaches 48 weeks, they switch to the bank.
The car companies sometimes recommend volunteer projects for people in the bank to work on, although workers are welcome to submit their own projects for company approval. Workers at the Jobs Bank site in Lansing, the state capital, spent last summer fixing up a county park.
Others in the Jobs Bank go to school. Electronics technician Tom Adams is working toward a doctorate in history at Michigan State University and is writing a dissertation. He has been in the bank since 2001, except for an 18-month stint working on a truck project.
Those who can't find an outside activity - or don't want to - end up in rubber rooms and the like.
Rick Wagoner, GM's chief executive, said recently that the Jobs Bank "obviously is an area of competitive disadvantage for us." Union officials realize that the bank is tough to explain to the public but see an effect on communities if it is curtailed.
cont'd at article home...
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WOW......just wow. I fell sorry for the guys non the less but getting paid that much to do nothing has got to wear on you after a while.
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Yeah, Stringer brought this up a little over a week ago in another thread. Very unproductive for all parties. Can't think of much else to say about it.
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Of course it was all part of a collectively bargained contract way back when.
In all collective bargaining, there's give and take. The company GAVE this item in order to GET something else that they considered valuable to them.
Times change, of course. Now this is something the company would like to address. The usual channel is... suprise... collective bargaining.
In hard times, concessions are given. In good times, rewards are reaped. The pendulum swings, back and forth, all the time. It's never really static.
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toad... at this point... what the company got that was valuable to them was probly the promise that they wouldn't have a crippling strike.
lazs
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Yeah, it seems to me that American car manufacturers did an excellent job of increasing the quality of their product during the late 80s and 90s, closing the serious quality gap that had developed between Japanese and American cars.
But what it looks like they didn't do was fix the serious problems with labor and management and that those are coming back to bite them. Then again, as much as I don't want to touch the subject, is there anyway one can seriously hope to change the union mindset?
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nope... the unions will be more than willing to let the car companies die of bankruptcy... the union leaders will see it coming and steal every cent they can before the collapse.
Good part is... from the ashes a new and healthy car company may emerge.. one that can compete on a little more even terms... hopefully they don't lose all the R&D genius before the shakeup..
lazs
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What does union leaders have to do with Ford investing 1 billion $ in production in China?
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Originally posted by lazs2
nope... the unions will be more than willing to let the car companies die of bankruptcy... the union leaders will see it coming and steal every cent they can before the collapse.
Good part is... from the ashes a new and healthy car company may emerge.. one that can compete on a little more even terms... hopefully they don't lose all the R&D genius before the shakeup..
lazs
News flash.. . it aint the unions "stealing every cent they can before the collapse"... it is the executives.
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Hi Sirloin,
Originally posted by SirLoin
What does union leaders have to do with Ford investing 1 billion $ in production in China?
Is it at all possible that the unions may have contributed to making the cost of production of manufactured goods in the United States so high, that one of the only ways to remain competitive in the world market is to produce goods overseas?
I'm not saying they are the only factor (our ever expanding corpus of regulations doesn't help) but could it be possible that they are one of the factors?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Urchin
News flash.. . it aint the unions "stealing every cent they can before the collapse"... it is the executives.
Oh yeah it is just those executives... Union leaders would never line their pockets at the expense of their union workers.
No no, only corperate execs can be be greedy.
:rolleyes:
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Makes me glad I did not buy an American made car actually.
As far as the execs go, how can you saay that Urchin!?!?! Afterall, the GM CEO took a $45M/year paycut this year. I mean look at the poor fellow.
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...and the board of directors and countless others took cuts.
And I can assure you, the unions will insist on their folks be treated the best. I dont know, this whole situation reminds me of that scene on "Titanic" when the musicians knew the ship would sink and that they would die. They sighed, shrugged and kept playing their music.
So long as the union forces these companies to be uncompetitive with the rest of the workforce, they are doomed.
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Gee.... maybe they could adjust the contract with collective bargaining.
That on-going process that provides for ways to change the way people work and the way people are rewarded for work.
Or should there just be one contract that never, ever changes?
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CEOs now reap 10% of the profit of the S&P 1,500 companies. That percentage was 5% 15 years ago. Publically traded corporations have lost their minds paying that level of executive compensation. Sub-chapter S corporations are different, and deservedly so. But, the argument that public companies cannot find quality executives for less is hogwash.
The Japanese car manufacturers didn't have cheaper production costs than American carmakers when all their production was in Japan. Process control, quality control, investment and high retained earnings to allow investment bought them market share. Oh, and the difference between executive and labor compensation was not x 30.
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Presented without further comment as it doesn't need any.
Seattle Post Intelligencer, Friday, February 17, 2006
BLOOMBERG NEWS
Delta executive deal opposed
Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots, who are being asked to accept a wage cut, objected to a plan in which the bankrupt carrier could pay severance totaling as much as $15 million to 144 executives if their jobs are eliminated.
"At a time when Delta is proposing deep cuts in pilot wages and benefits, deep resentment and anger over a soft landing program for officers and directors can neither be understated," the carrier's Air Line Pilots Association said in a bankruptcy court filing Thursday.
Delta, which sought Chapter 11 protection in September, said in a filing Feb. 8 that the program is intended to retain executives who would be eligible for the payments totaling $3 million to $15 million if their jobs are cut without cause, because of airline changes or new ownership, the Atlanta-based company said.
Delta is seeking $315 million in annual pay and benefit concessions from pilots, who took a 32.5 percent wage cut in 2004.
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Originally posted by Toad
Presented without further comment as it doesn't need any.
Seattle Post Intelligencer, Friday, February 17, 2006
BLOOMBERG NEWS
I cannot BELIEVE the nerve of those dirty greedy communist UNIONS!
They make me SO angry when they make our companies uncompetitive with underhanded tactics like those!
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Originally posted by Toad
Presented without further comment as it doesn't need any.
Seattle Post Intelligencer, Friday, February 17, 2006
BLOOMBERG NEWS
Now wait a minute, you fault us for grouping all Unions as one giant bad thing. Yet you turn around and constantly fault management as the source of all bad things constantly.
You want to talk auto industry...and Im going to say it over and over again...the UAW is the biggest problem the big three has to ever compete.
If you want to talk airlines...yes, I'll agree with you. Over and over, management has squandered, decieved and given up nothing while asking others to take the hit.
But...you need to stay on topic.
I see your tactic...and "if you cant convince, confuse em" aint working LOL ;)
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LP, I think you miss the point. Completely.
There is absolutely no difference between management in the auto industry and the airline industry.
There is no significant difference between union leadership in the auto industy and the airline industry.
Those who think the unions are solely responsible for ruining either industry are blind to management's faults.
Those who think management is solely responsible for ruining either industry are blind to the union's faults.
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I blame Bush
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Unions need to be eliminated,except UPS's they can keep theirs, anything that makes them less productive and more incompetant is :aok
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executives are getting a bigger and bigger piece of the pie, that is true..
but... come on guys... you aren't really saying that those salaries are totaling anything like the salaries of the union?
Rolex... you are correct to a point but.. At the time the japs were going all out to get a foothold here and shipping cars... Our executives were making about 3% of the profit (still high but..)
What happened was a combination of things. The gas crisis, high fuel costs... were allready common in japan... their cars were allready small and thrifty....
Smog laws... the smog laws were wrong. They insisted on the impossible.. the only way a V8 of 300+ cubic inches would meet those standards was with electronic fuel injection controlled by a computer... Those things did not exist together at the time soo.... they dropped compression and added converters and recycled exhaust and added air to the mixture and killed the performance of the V8 and... at the same time... increased it's fuel usage..
Unions had a stranglehold on our car companies and probly 80% of the workers were drugged or drunk.. employee and management relations were at a all time low...
japs were willing to dump vehicles and with our low tarriffs (at first anyway) it was easy. latter we upped tariffs but it was far too late (and a bad idea anyway)
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
Those who think the unions are solely responsible for ruining either industry are blind to management's faults.
Those who think management is solely responsible for ruining either industry are blind to the union's faults.
Alas, we agree
But getting paid to sit in a room for over $100k a year? And this makes them competitive...how?
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But getting paid to sit in a room for over $100k a year? And this makes them competitive...how?
The fact that such a stupid, wasteful thing could come to be accepted as "normal" tells you everything you need to know about why the US auto industry is falling on its face...
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The main reason the big 3 are falling on their face is mostly due to mamagement..if u ever worked at a "Big Three" auto plant you'd know the only thing they care about is quantity,"keep the line moving"...quality is usually the result of someone on the line making a stand when they are instructed to cover up uninstalled wiring et... or install wrong(or unsafe parts)
Upper management rules lower management by intimidation & threats to the point where the zone supervisor only cares about covering his prettythang(ie..covering repairs up) and keep the line going at all costs...This is how you get a heck of a lot of recalls(hence Japanese autos have far less recalls..which can cost billions)...& ya,i work the line at Ford.
The big three have to re-think their management structure.Quantity is not job 1.
and as for the unions..they are bending over big time allowing contracts to be opened and giving consessions away for nothing in return.,
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Originally posted by LePaul
But getting paid to sit in a room for over $100k a year? And this makes them competitive...how?
I think you would have to ask MANAGEMENT why they accepted that clause in the contract back when it was negotiated.
As I've said before I've never heard of a contract negotiation that was completely "one sided".
Boths sides come to the table with what they call their "Christmas tree" contract, as in every possible thing on their list for Santa. The negotiation is a continual bargaining of "this for that". I'll give you the pony you want if you give me the bicycle I want.
So, there was a reason that clause was agreed to. Usually, it's coupled to productivity. I'd guess the company gained huge productivity increases that they really, really wanted but which made a lot of jobs obsolete. The tit for tat was some sort of "job security" for the guys that lost their jobs.
At that time management obviously thought the trade was worth, for whatever reason.
As I said, the reason contracts have duration clauses is because everyone expects to have to renegotiate as "times change".
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Originally posted by SirLoin
and as for the unions..they are bending over big time allowing contracts to be opened and giving consessions away for nothing in return.,
In relevance to the UAW, please show me where.
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In the end, it is always the fault of owners, and the management they select. As long as 'good' executives are defined by how clever they are in protecting and maximizing their own compensation instead of focusing on how the company does business, not much good can come from them. Financial trickery is not business.
Nissan fell into the same fat and lazy stagnant doldrums. They were losing money hand over fist and on the verge of bankrupcy. One man, Carlos Ghosn, turned it around quickly. They made more money last year than all the profit Renault and Nissan combined made in the last 10 years. It was done with common sense and good business practices, not financial trickery or sleight of hand. But, it wasn't easy because everyone (white and blue collar) had to suffer equally, for awhile. Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic about any similar common sense turnaround for GM or Ford. The U.S. union-management culture of negotiation is more confrontational and based on one side winning instead of the company (which employs both sides) winning. Who is going to change that culture? Can't see any candidates.
On to the airlines... Wow, who in their right mind would even want to run an airline? :) The industry is a minefield - always has been and will probably always will be. My inelegant opinion of the industry is twofold; there are too many major US carriers for such a mature industry, and too few options to differentiate 'brands.'
You can't cut price just to garner a few more passengers because we all know (or should) that a 5% cut in price does not yield a 5% reduction in profit - it's far more. There are just too many airlines who can get you where you want to go, so only a few things are available to be altered, mainly the image and service that customers experience to build some loyalty.
I used to be a heavy traveler, but I avoid it all costs now in the U.S. My anecdotal experience in heavy international travel is skewed toward staying away from Delta, Northwest and United. My reason is simple: I can travel on other airlines without having to endure the cabin staff.
[rant]You want to help Delta? Get rid of the fat, surly, rude, obnoxious, lazy, arrogant, "get it yourself" flight attendants on international routes. I avoid Delta like the plague, United like AIDS and Northwest like AIDS with the plague.
I need to get up and walk around sometimes on a 11-hour flight. I'm an ideal passenger and customer - I ask for nothing special, I don't expect a lot, I don't complain or annoy people around me, or behind me. If I walk to the galley and ask for a glass of water politely, I don't expect to be growled at, have an attendant roll their eyes at me, throw down their cards from their card game and sigh, or even be told to "get it yourself..."
Call me old-fashioned, but I'll stay away from that airline after a few times of that. I get better service, with a smile, on Air India, Thai Air, JAL, Singapore Airlines... maybe US airlines should start outsourcing cabin staff. [/rant]
On to Japanese cars. By the way, lazs, I know you get a thrill from trying to spin people up by using words like "jap" and "colored people" and "wetback" etc., but aren't you old enough now to have outgrown it? You're in your 50s now... It would be interesting to hear you say it in front of a sumo wrestler one day. You'd be wimpering like a little girl after he squished you like a bug.
Anyway, let me learn you a little about 'dumping' there, hot rod. ;)
Tariffs are political tools to prevent competition and get votes for the politician. The problem with tariffs, is that they work both ways. So, one country tries to protect an industry from foreign boogey man competition, but another industry gets hurt by tariffs placed as reprisal. The overall result is little effect on either economy, contrary to what the politicians will tell you.
Some companies do sell below cost, but only because they screwed up and made too much or many, or need to cut inventories and raise some cheap cash. There is no shortage of cheap financing money available in Japan though, so they were not dumping.
We have this thing called 'overhead' in business. There are two basic types, so you should be able to keep up with this. One is fixed and the other is variable. Fixed overhead is, well, fixed expenses, meaning they don't change, regardless of how many widgets you make, which is the definition of 'fixed.'
Variable overhead 'varies' with how many widgets you make. Both of these are plugged into the cost column of a widget. Now, this is going to get complicated here, but you can print it out and carry it around in your shirt pocket this week.
Dumb companies add up the costs (which are usually inflated by all departments when asked to tally their costs), add a profit, and use that as their price. Smart companies look at the market price, then try to find a way to maximize profit or market share by continually assessing and modifying their costs, product line, marketing or other really, really technical thingies. Once a company is assured of meeting fixed overhead through orders and sales for the period in question, fixed overhead does not have to be considered anymore. It's already paid, so why are we adding to our price, when it isn't costing us anything anymore?
You can sell more of your widgets by selling them for less, make more profit than you had planned on by reduced costs from larger raw material purchases, increase efficiency of your widget production line, increase market share, and create inventory that will only cost more to make later - and maybe sell that at a market price that includes the fixed overhead, which is now even more profit, since we have already paid our fixed overhead for the period. It's Friggin' Huge profit.
We call this 'incremental sales.' It's business we never would have had that allows us (and our suppliers) to hire more people, create more earnings to reinvest, puts smiles on our faces, and frowns on the faces of dumb companies. It is not losing money, or selling below cost, or dumping.
Sheesh, I can't imagine how Seagoon must feel typing several posts like this every day.
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Originally posted by Rolex
[rant]You want to help Delta? Get rid of the fat, surly, rude, obnoxious, lazy, arrogant, "get it yourself" flight attendants on international routes. I avoid Delta like the plague, United like AIDS and Northwest like AIDS with the plague.
[/rant]
I was actually there to watch the "International" develop. The "fat F/A's" as well.
Interestingly enough, the Delta Flight Attendants have never, ever been represented by a Union. The Pilot's Union (ALPA) and the Flight Dispatchers are the ONLY unionized workers at DAL.
In the beginning, the company selected F/A's for "the International". They had to have positive letters from customers, good reviews from their supervisors, they gave them tests on various people skills... and they had to be at least well-kept if not outright attractive.
As you might expect in a seniority system (company, not union, implemented) there was soon unrest in the ranks. Seniority couldn't get one on "the International" although it brought one everything else: best domestic trips, best pay, first pick of vacation times, bid holidays off, etc., etc..
It wasn't long before the Senior F/A's were stridently demanding access to "the International" on a seniority rather than test/selection basis.
While there was no union, no contract, the company eventually gave in to straight seniority bid. That's pretty much the story there.
The "fat F/A" was brought to you courtesy of the US Court system. DAL had a "weight check" system where the F/A's had to weigh in every month. Those exceeding the "guidelines" for weight per height were given numerous opportunities to get back within guidelines. Eventually, though, they could and sometimes were terminated for failure to do so. That eventually got to the US court system where the company lost the case.
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there is less hope than even I see with the unions... Even if GM goes broke and dumps the union and it's high paid executives and leans out with a lot of R & D... It won't matter.
The unions have a strnglehold on the ancillary stuff ... tires, starter motors carbs metal plastic... everything... They will just pout and march and stamp their feet and not sell to GM till Gm hires back all the useless union workers again.
lazs
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I yearn for the good old days when you could squeeze past a flight attendant and the cart in the aisle. :) I don't care if they don't look like Miss America (but Miss July might be nice), but, I swear to God, one woman was so big, she slapped everyone sitting in aisle seats on both sides when she waddled down the aisle. Her hips hit the seats on both sides of the aisle, knocking off elbows and glasses, and her footsteps sounded like Godzilla. The plane shook when she walked. She was Fricken' Huge. When she went to the back of the plane, I'm pretty sure some elevator trim was needed.
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As for traveling by air? A humiliating and dehumanizing experiance that is confusing and boring at the same time... something that used to be fun that is now something I won't do unless it is an absolute emergency or the only possible way... an experiance any free person would dread.
lazs
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GM will file chapter 11 within 24 months, Ford following shortly therafter.
They both really have no choice. They are old line companies who have made generous promises to thier employees over the decades that they cant afford to keep.
The bad thing is that the pensions are going to be dumped on the taxpayer, granted the pentioner will be paid at a lower rate and will lose thier medical bennies, but at least they will get somthing.
The good thing is that the public employees around here who have been saying "we deserve at least what a factory worker gets" are going to get used to no retirement or medical as well.
Bottom line is it's going to less expensive for the rest of us.
shamus
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Originally posted by Sixpence
I blame Bush
I am Sparticus!
Karaya
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Originally posted by Rolex
I yearn for the good old days when you could squeeze past a flight attendant and the cart in the aisle. :)
Well, the carts have generally gotten smaller........... now you and the F/A....
;)