Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on March 04, 2006, 09:32:57 AM
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lets hold a dueling ladder for Squad vs Squad on a fighter basis.
could make it an ongoing event.
A number of us have done this before on a smaller scale so rules and game set ups will be easy, poat here if you think your squad would like to compete.
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Sure. How many per side?
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We did this in AWFR, it was alot of fun.
Zazen
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i geuss you can roll as many from your squad that show up for the fights..
a little insentive perhaps, for squaddies to show.
so max side is 32 players.
if all squads and/or pilots would like to shout here then i'll draw up a big table in like...2 weeks or so. assuming there is enough interest.
edit: :D i'm serious though, no troll intended with the 2 weeks .
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So, an 8 member squad would have to potentially fight a 32 member squad? Would kind of suck, don't you think? How about a limit to the number up at any one time? For instance, you go by the number of members the smaller squad can up for the limit.
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^^^^ Then you'd just pick your best 2 or so.
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I'd like to do this. If nobody from 475th chooses to fight, could it be possible to pick someone up from another squad?
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Originally posted by Lazerr
I'd like to do this. If nobody from 475th chooses to fight, could it be possible to pick someone up from another squad?
Gotta believe there's enough guys in the squad that would take a crack at it.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Gotta believe there's enough guys in the squad that would take a crack at it.
Yeah but they're all silly peeee 3tay eight dweebs.
:D
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I'll fly with the Pa pa Pa Pa PeeeeeaThirdy ate POWA dweebs. My squad flys all commie planes now.
And they all suck.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Sure. How many per side?
This was once done as 4 v 4 in an AW contest.
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I remember flying in it for a round, don't remember which squad won it though. Was lots of fun.
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Originally posted by Murdr
This was once done as 4 v 4 in an AW contest.
That was one of the best. 4v4 is a perfect number.
What was the name of your team.
Mine came in first. AD team.
Was nice bumping off DD and pyro and company;-)
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I think Jg 44 can find a couple of good sticks for this. We have 50 + guys. It should not be a problem.:t
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The 4 v 4 I participated in had these general rules as I can remember them.
1. A neutral battle sector was agreed upon (no enemy radar for either team)
2. Teams must cross into the battle sector with its members inside of icon range with each other, and confirm enterance on open channel.
3. Teams must stay below alt cap (was 15k) until crossing into the battle sector. No cap after entering.
4. No one can leave the battle sector once entered.
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sounds V cool
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Originally posted by Lazerr
I'd like to do this. If nobody from 475th chooses to fight, could it be possible to pick someone up from another squad?
Out of the 32 of us I'm sure ya can find enough to show up :t
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All we need is pipz. Pipz will sing all of you to death. :t
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good enthusiasm, need more.
any organised formation of 12+ planes is a good fight for anyone.
i think the limit should be 32 vs 32.
transfers and member swaps can be aranged at will, the squadron that is fighting will form a squad in the DA that day and invite any geusts.
only exclusion being you cannot fly against your MA squadron.
session last for 1 hour? 2 hours?
the maximum amount you can outnumber a side by is 2/1.
eg: 12 vs 6 is the most you could send against a low turn out squad.
planes (can be match ups) are chosen by the loser of each round.
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If you allow any kind of odds other than 1:1 you open the door to, shall we say, lively discussion of the validity of the outcome.
If you do a 4v4 and 8v8 ladder, that gives folks two chances to compete.
I would expect the initial HO exchange of fire in a 16x16 or bigger engagement to be reminiscent of Gettysburg.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i geuss you can roll as many from your squad that show up for the fights..
best squad, or biggest? lolz
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http://www.flightladder.com/ (http://www.flightladder.com/)
Sign up here, there is a squad ladder set up. 332nd has done a squad duel or two. 4 vs 4 is not my idea of a squad event. Call me anti-AW I guess....
;)
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the whole idea is to get large numbers of pilots (15-20 per team) flying at once.
i think the majority of fights will be within range of 40-60% fair numericaly at the worst.
if we have to make it exactly 1:1 then i suggest round be set 10-10, 15-15 and 32 - 32.
take for instance 9 very experienced pilots in one squad vs 15 medium pilots on the other side.
the table will be drawn up simple as a reference for dates and times. scores will not be recorded.
most of us are able to see clearly when a fight is not worth fighting.
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good idea like a Golf handicap:aok
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I also thing it should be an even number per side. In your example bat, the 9 experienced pilots should beat the tar out of the same number of noobs. Giving those noobs extra numbers kinda ruins the point of the contest... to find the "best" squad. The fight that counts should be evened numbered. After that if both sides want to play around and do the 9vs15, more power to them.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the whole idea is to get large numbers of pilots (15-20 per team) flying at once.
i think the majority of fights will be within range of 40-60% fair numericaly at the worst.
if we have to make it exactly 1:1 then i suggest round be set 10-10, 15-15 and 32 - 32.
take for instance 9 very experienced pilots in one squad vs 15 medium pilots on the other side.
the table will be drawn up simple as a reference for dates and times. scores will not be recorded.
most of us are able to see clearly when a fight is not worth fighting.
Do you sit at home and think of other ways to compensate? Wait, nevermind, I suck, so I'll be the team with 20 crappy pile-its.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Zazen13
We did this in AWFR, it was alot of fun.
Zazen
Yup it was a 4x4 contest great fun we made it to the last round I believe. I failed to show up so I dont remember the outcome. :D Jr. or Ghost might.
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Batfink - you need an arena? With logs?
PM me.
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PM sent easyscor, thanks.
Karaya, if you fancy a DA trip 1 on 1 any time, any plane feel free bro, untill then silence that facial anus of yours.
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What, where, when?
I won't probably be in there (as I suck in a fighter! - if we get enough paricipants...), but we have some decent sticks in our squad. So just give us the time & location. :)
edit: I posted this in our squad forum just now.
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Seems to come up every 2 years.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Seems to come up every 2 years.
Not the first time I've been in something similar... However, fun events. :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
This was once done as 4 v 4 in an AW contest.
The 479th took part, was great fun. Recall there was also a 1v1 and 2v2 squad duel as well.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
PM sent easyscor, thanks.
Karaya, if you fancy a DA trip 1 on 1 any time, any plane feel free bro, untill then silence that facial anus of yours.
Did you just puffy his brown eye?
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
PM sent easyscor, thanks.
Karaya, if you fancy a DA trip 1 on 1 any time, any plane feel free bro, untill then silence that facial anus of yours.
The day you bug me, is the day I'll keel over. Again, what you stated initally from response was BS. Please, How on EARTH can you begin to "classify the good, average, etc" in here. So again, get down off of your horse Lancelot and try not to trip on your sword. Once you start "judging others", the rest is pointless.
BTW, you lost your argument with the personal attack.
Heck, I'll DA you anytime, I can careless, If I lose everytime, I won't have "an excuse", "a whine", etc. Why? Because once you take the fun out of the DA, it means nothing. I mean, last tour I "invited RuAmL and WhineX" to the DA for a 2 on 1. They were too chicken to oblige to land and say "I'm down, are we going?". I just wanted the SA experience and learn better moves.
Batfink, I'm just cracking the whip at they way you came across, if you wanna get nasty in here, I can do that, I do NOT want to, but I can.
Karaya
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(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/2715/kids01.jpg)
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Look at what the cat dragged in!
Sup slut!
Karaya
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Hey Bodhi, why bring in a pic of young beet1e? :confused:
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Originally posted by DipStick
Hey Bodhi, why bring in a pic of young beet1e? :confused:
:rofl :cry :rofl
Karaya
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Originally posted by DipStick
Hey Bodhi, why bring in a pic of young beet1e? :confused:
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
If you allow any kind of odds other than 1:1 you open the door to, shall we say, lively discussion of the validity of the outcome.
If you do a 4v4 and 8v8 ladder, that gives folks two chances to compete.
I would expect the initial HO exchange of fire in a 16x16 or bigger engagement to be reminiscent of Gettysburg.
What Dok said. A large squad fite is just a gang fight.
4v4 is more personal and becomes a fight of nerves of steel.
Having participated in some in AW I can say they were the best fights.
Each side flies what they want and you won't know till vis range...much like murdr said.
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So I guess this isn't about best "squads" afterall.
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my skwad can beat up your skwad
~rat
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Originally posted by DipStick
Hey Bodhi, why bring in a pic of young beet1e? :confused:
:O :rofl :rofl :rofl :O
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Originally posted by Rino
So I guess this isn't about best "squads" afterall.
Not exactly but squads usually sent their 4 best pilots but they had to come from squads.
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Just a suggestion.
The 4v4 is a fun way to fight, but fighting in a furball involves a number of elements that can make the outcome unreliable as a measure of which squad is best. Also, it limits the number of players that can compete for the squad, and makes scheduling all eight together at the same time logistically difficult.
However, there is another way to do a squad duel, but it raises almost as many issues as it solves. I'll explain it with an example.
Suppose you have two squads A and B, and A has 15 pilots and B has 19 pilots. Both Squads poll their members to see how many wish to participate and discover that Squad A only has 12 pilots and Squad B has 14 pilots who want to join in.
This means that the contest between these two squads will involve 12 pilots from each side. Both Squads will internally rank their pilots from 1 to 12 and they then hold 12 individual 1v1 duels. The two top ranked pilots fight, the two second ranked pilots fight and so on down the line. Squads can hold internal competition to seed their pilots if they choose, but even if the ranking isn't exactly right, that part still always balances out equally.
Each pair fight a best of five, and the wins for each duel can be added, 1 point for a win, 0 for a loss and the Squad with the most points wins.
As for choice of plane, the first fight could be a compulsory aircraft, followed by each player choosing the plane for the next duel alternately.
The advantages of this system are:
1) That more players get to be involved and enjoy the fun.
2) Scheduling between 2 players at a time should be easier than 8.
3) The fights being 1v1 are a good arbiter of individual skill.
4) Because a higher % of each squad is involved, the outcome will be a more reliable measure of which squad is best.
5) Anomalies resulting from unusual dissimilar aircraft choices are avoided.
Disadvantages are:
1) Doesn't include situational awareness.
2) Doesn't include the element of surprise.
3) Doesn't include wingman or multiship tactics.
4) Doesn't include an element of strategy in aircraft choice.
Just something to think about. I'm not even in a Squad, so it makes no difference to me :)
Badboy
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i've already given up on any efforts to make this event go ahead.
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LOL Dip.
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Batfink, a lot of these people make a good point. How do you quantify "poor," "average," or "good?" You would need some sort of iterative system where you handicap a squad based on prior performance in the same event. Thus any early running of the event would require even teams, and handicapping could begin after each squad flies, say, ten or more matches. At that point, the good, average, and the poor squads should shake out accordingly by record.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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sure.
and there i was thinking that something like this could be based around 'fun', and simply getting large formations flying at each other for a showdown.
maybe if we get HT to coad us a score card with k/d, hit% and rank all moulded in.......
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I want to see the JBs vs the JG54 :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Batfink, a lot of these people make a good point. How do you quantify "poor," "average," or "good?" You would need some sort of iterative system where you handicap a squad based on prior performance in the same event. Thus any early running of the event would require even teams, and handicapping could begin after each squad flies, say, ten or more matches. At that point, the good, average, and the poor squads should shake out accordingly by record.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I handicap my squad....Does that help? :)
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design a map with 2 bases have 2 hosts on each airfield Both teams get a 3,2,1 count and fly towards each other,
Everyone flies the same plane a minimum of 6 players per squad (even teams).
20 minutes most amount of kills wins, winning squad stays on, last match winners hold the room for next week.
The merger of 12 planes + at the same time brings the best out of pilots/wingman skills and is the ultimate adrenaline rush.
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Batfink, a lot of these people make a good point. How do you quantify "poor," "average," or "good?" You would need some sort of iterative system where you handicap a squad based on prior performance in the same event. Thus any early running of the event would require even teams, and handicapping could begin after each squad flies, say, ten or more matches. At that point, the good, average, and the poor squads should shake out accordingly by record.
And even that can be spoofed.
Maybe the approach would be to have experience-based ladders. So one for the people who've been on AH a number of years and fly a lot (you guys can define "a lot"), one for people playing less than a year, and maybe a geezers ladder for all the AW/WB retreads (where they have better SA than gunnery skills). That seems pretty easy to bracket and most people will know which bunch they belong in, and ringers would be pretty easy to spot based on prificiency and style. Obviously some folks could be in a couple of ladders (i.e. a newbie who learned fast, a geezer who now flies 20+ hours per week, etc.).
Having 4v4, 6v6, and 8v8 ladders all running would also open things up, so one elimination doesn't take you out of the tournament completely. And each bump in number of players increases the reliance on SA, teamwork, and role players (i.e. guys willing to get assists).
Since I'm assuming this will all get administered by some online script, having 3 classicications and 3 ladders in each is just a matter of setting up the tables right and then let 'er rip.
Oh ... and you probably want to put some limits on plane selection - like, no jets. Maybe no perk planes at all or it'll just be "All Tempests All The Time".
Maybe have a novelty "4v4 A20's and IL2's" ladder for the bomber people too.
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I have had a dueling ladder up and running for about 1 1/2 years. Doesn't get much use. I recently added a ladder for squads, of which I believe the flying mongrels are the only ones on (so no challenges issued).
You can get to the ladder at www.flightladder.com (http://www.flightladder.com). Be sure to read to read the Help under the Support menu.
I am also hosting private ladders. Please email me @ sour@flightladder.com for more info.
Sour
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Bruv gets the idea.
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NO 418 HOrnets damn fine fighter squad..been with them 5 years....We are always there for Bish-Land.
:t
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we'll do a trial run, sometime this week. get anyone interested and split the sides even, no squad affiliations apply.
I'm sure there will be a limit of aircraft in the area that will screw with connection and graphics cards, the trial will help us determine a realistic limit for the squadron fights.
four on four or even eight on eight just not what i'm after, without meaning those numbers can't be hugely enjoyable.
If i said this wednesday at 10:00pm gmt? an early but not impossible time for those west of me, and at least a slim chance dwindling rapidly the further east of me you get.
please post if you think you could make it.
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I kept my post simple batfink in the game where i came from it happens every saturday night and was one of the only things that kept me flying it at the end.
The best squadrons in the game showed to compete and the best team would win. Pilots improved their skills and the intense fighting was worth savouring.
No running of mouths no whining. Just 12 planes smashing into each other if you got knocked out of the merge you would do your best to get straight back into the fight and make it count.
the phrase "poop hitting the fan" was the best way to describe it.
Mind you i spent 2 years flying with the best 2 squads in game and was pretty much always on the winning side so i guess its rose tinted glasses for me ;)
But I would love to see this kind of setup in aces high as the many more squads and players it would be like showing up for the world cup.
Bruv
~S~
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Count me and "The Clan" in Batfink.We may not be good but we will give a good fight to the last man.Of course you know this because we've had some 4 v4 /5v5/8v8 duels.We've also been dueling the "Flying Tigers AVG" great fun and some good fights ensued from these turn outs.Energy is currently working on a h2h map that is specifically designed with this type of fighting in mind,hoping to add wind and clouds and some other veribles just to shake it up alittle.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Batfink, a lot of these people make a good point. How do you quantify "poor," "average," or "good?" You would need some sort of iterative system where you handicap a squad based on prior performance in the same event. Thus any early running of the event would require even teams, and handicapping could begin after each squad flies, say, ten or more matches. At that point, the good, average, and the poor squads should shake out accordingly by record.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Ah, what I wouldn't give to be "poor". Nah, I'd be not "assigned" and have a personality.
Karaya
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And even that can be spoofed.
Maybe the approach would be to have experience-based ladders. So one for the people who've been on AH a number of years and fly a lot (you guys can define "a lot"), one for people playing less than a year, and maybe a geezers ladder for all the AW/WB retreads (where they have better SA than gunnery skills). That seems pretty easy to bracket and most people will know which bunch they belong in, and ringers would be pretty easy to spot based on prificiency and style. Obviously some folks could be in a couple of ladders (i.e. a newbie who learned fast, a geezer who now flies 20+ hours per week, etc.).
Having 4v4, 6v6, and 8v8 ladders all running would also open things up, so one elimination doesn't take you out of the tournament completely. And each bump in number of players increases the reliance on SA, teamwork, and role players (i.e. guys willing to get assists).
Since I'm assuming this will all get administered by some online script, having 3 classicications and 3 ladders in each is just a matter of setting up the tables right and then let 'er rip.
Oh ... and you probably want to put some limits on plane selection - like, no jets. Maybe no perk planes at all or it'll just be "All Tempests All The Time".
Maybe have a novelty "4v4 A20's and IL2's" ladder for the bomber people too.
Now as an old AW geezer I LIKE that idea:) It makes perfect sense too.
I really can't compete against AH vets because of the different model here but that shouldn't nullify my refined SA skills from AW. (No comments from the AW peanut gallery please: )
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Ah, what I wouldn't give to be "poor". Nah, I'd be not "assigned" and have a personality.
The Houston Texans must have one hell of a heaping tablespoon of personality then. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Get this goin right and I may have to come back to Aces High for a bit! :aok
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The Houston Texans must have one hell of a heaping tablespoon of personality then. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'm glad you see the sarcasm. Take it easy bud
Karaya
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Originally posted by HardRock
(No comments from the AW peanut gallery please: )
NOOB!
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back on topic: i think the squad that commanded the most respect for their sportsmanship and good humor over the years would be De Ol Onz of Air Warrior. sure they werent the most skilled, nor were they the most organized. but they represented the old breed who shouted on open frequency whenever they landed a kill. indeed, i never heard an ill word spoken of De Ol Onz. they were my first squad. they saw me start as a squeeky voiced noob and blossom into a lethal, bearded swan.
they also were one of the last squads to have a battlecry along with the Pigstompers (SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE)
so in closing,
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I vote 4x4. I'd be amazed if more than 1 or two squads could ever field 8+ people.
Sounds Fun!
g00b
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Nazgul are in....let us know when and where.
Seems like an easy enough senerio....squads show up....4 V 4 , same planes, to be detemined by someone not in the event, and that person would be in a B26 so as to have external view to film the event. Held in DA so any plane goes without perk worries. Squads up in alphabetical order round robin duel elimination. You lose....you fly against the next loser...you lose again, your out. The last squad that hasn't lost flys against the last squad that only lost 1. The unbeaten squad has to win 1 of 2 fights.....if they lose both....there done and the other squad wins.\
Again....where and when, we'll be there. Don't let the dweebs overthink the whole idea. Most spend more time typing how good they are insted of proving it. How often do you see Fester, Kappa, Zaphod, Wilbuz, ect...ect..ect....typing in the forums how they will kick your prettythang. Just put it together.....the real pilots will show up.
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Originally posted by nazgulAX
Most spend more time typing how good they are insted of proving it. How often do you see Fester, Kappa, Zaphod, Wilbuz, ect...ect..ect....typing in the forums how they will kick your prettythang. Just put it together.....the real pilots will show up.
AMEN!
Karaya
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Our squad (Lentolaivue 32) has had some good fights during the time I've been involved. We had 8 vs. 8 against the Israeli 101 Squadron (2 frames, of which we won the first and lost the second, IIRC?). Then we've had 3-4 skirmishes (8 vs 8) against the Lentolaivue 34, of which we've lost all.. And then before a scenario (Ruhr) we had a session against the Army of Muppets, P47D25 (or D40?) vs 109G6, which we lost (6 vs 6? 4 vs 4? can't remember). But those were all in AH1...