Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on March 04, 2006, 10:10:12 AM
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(http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/cz52-01.jpg)
An interesting lil piece of hand artillery... The CZ-52 is a has unique single action auto that incorporates a three-position safety-decocker system. In fully lowered position the pistol is ready to fire, in the middle position is the "safe" mode. The firing pin design looks similar to Walther's firing pin block system. Pushing the safety to its fully up position de-***** the piece.
The slide is a roller-locking mechanism that looks a whole lot like the HK 91/G3 rifles.. This system utilizes two rollers that recess into the sides of the chamber and are pushed into recesses on the slide by a cam that is held in place by pressure from the recoil spring.
Unlike lock breech systems such as the 1911, the roller-locking system's barrel does not tilt, rather recoiling straight back. This minimizes the muzzle flip characteristic quite a bit. The damn thing is VERY accurate and can put up a very fast rate of accurate fire..
(http://image.sportsmansguide.com/image/8/84917.JPG)
The ammo's pretty interesting too.. looks like lil rifle slugs in lil necked cases. It's .30cal (7.62x25) and the cheapo FMJ it eats gets launched at about 1700FPS and the muzzel energy is in the 525 ft lbs range. Whoof. Very fast.. fmj ammo tends to puch thru cover very well, it's rumored to be able to chop through class III body armor. Not willing to test that myself... ;) Soft points are available from Sellier & Belloit. probably be a better pick for 'soft' targets. ;)
Firing pin is the weak point, originals wern't heat treated so they snapped if dry fired.. upgraded mine with a stainless one, no problems yet. I've got a nice 'inside the pants' nylon holster for a colt commander.. fits it perfectly. It's a 'big' pistol, just a mite smaller than a 1911, about the same mass. Feels good in the hand, points up just like a 1911.
These things are mil-surp commie (czech) from the early 50's, and can be had for under 200 bucks in arsenal refurb condition.. (mine was 175, delivered) An outstanding piece of hand artillery, remarkably accurate and a very strong hitter.
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Yep... fun pistol to shoot. Have you tried a Makarov yet?
lazs
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Nope.. bought this one because of the price. They tell me the Mak is pretty similar; just 'better'. I dunno how to evaluate that comment. Seems the CZ hits hard, fast and accurately; only thing that would intrest me more would be smaller, lighter and cheaper. ;)
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ya 52's are alot of fun. I picked one up for $89 about 2 years ago. Its become a little project for me.
extended compesated barrel
firing pin w/ safety eliminator
1911 adjutable rear sight (not installed yet)
half done set of target grips
It needs a new recoil spring because it throws brass about 30-40 feet. Making reloading prettymuch impossible.
I haven't worked on it in a long time. I guess just too many projects at once.
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In a choice between that pistol and a Mak, I'd go with the mac every time. It's not an issue with the quality of the weapon it's an ammo choice. I don't really care for bottleneck shells in a self shucking handgun and I have no doubt I will be able to find mak ammo just about anywhere for some time to come.
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I think I have fired that gun too. I tried alot of commie pistols and rifles one week in 1995 and that one looks familar.
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Wow, cool tip, I like.
I'm ignorant of Makarovs as well. What ammo do they use, and what's its characteristics?
culero
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Did you kow the Torkoff round is also harmonically balenced?
It shatters Kavlar, and was made years before kavlar was invented.
I have a stockpile of old Sovblc ammo. Ive broken a few kevlar sheets with it.
OH yeah they also made a cute sub-machinegun what uses the same round.
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Originally posted by Maverick
I don't really care for bottleneck shells in a self shucking handgun
Why? I've run 200 rounds thru this thing, not one mis-feed or failure to fire. And that was crap commie martyr albanian fmj. I suppose the brand name stuff would be better... but at a 0% feed and fire failure rate (to date) doesn't lead me down the path of worrying about brass or ammo engineering issues.
I'd think that a bottleneck shell and chamber would be inherently more accurate in comparison to a straight case/chamber? yes/ no?
..trying to find a logic for the 'bottleneck' gripe. Extraction? Jams?
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Hang,
I look at the situation from a handloaders perspective. Bottlenecks in handguns tend to be more dificult to reload without case stretching, headspace problems due to overlength cases or collapsing the case reforming the shoulder. A straight wall case can also be resized without lubing it using a carbide die.
Some of it depends on where the case is headspace regulated, at the case mouth like a straightwall case or at the bottleneck like rifle cases. The stuck or ruptured cases are also a problem that may happen from time to time. In short, I like the simplest design for something that has a serious use to it. Straight walls are a better option in low powered cartridges like handguns IMO.
I also look for ammo and case availability. I figure the supply of bottleneck cases will dry up before too long. The mak, since it is pretty much the same as a .380 will be no problem in the future. I base this on the old .30 cal broomhandle mauser experiance. The Mauser was designed with the bottleneck cartridge, high velocity but low bullet weight. The 9mm versions can still be fired cheaply as the ammo is plentifull. The same can't be said for the Mauser bottleneck shells. Once the old stockpiles of ammo are gone the cost will go up fairlu dramatically.
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3-4 years ago I was flying with a Russian guy, big russian dude supposely ex-"Red Army". An another pilot just bought a Makarov, and was showing it to us.
The Russian guy said "ah ah ... Makarov ... Piece of **** Makarov".
Then he lifted his shirt and we could see 7 bullets impacts on his left side.
:O
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Thanks Mav! Makes perfect sense. I often miss 'reload issues' in my logic train.. because I just don't reload and have no intentions (currently) on starting to. Just no space for the equipment. I have a friend that reloads, he does the ammo for me when we do 'challenge' marksmanship stuff with the rifles.
The nice thing about a 'cheap' pistol is the lack of remorse when yah have to abandon it. Meanwhile, as long as it is accurate and reliable and packs a massive whallop... I'm happy. ;)
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
3-4 years ago I was flying with a Russian guy, big russian dude supposely ex-"Red Army". An another pilot just bought a Makarov, and was showing it to us.
The Russian guy said "ah ah ... Makarov ... Piece of **** Makarov".
Then he lifted his shirt and we could see 7 bullets impacts on his left side.
:O
Holy ****!! Henh. Cripes. 7?? damn.
Just goes ta show yah, Russians are hard to kill. ;)
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while reloading for 7.62x25 is a bit of a pain. You can always make new brass from .223 brass.
There is an article floating around the web somewhere with the specifics. Its doable but rather a lot of work.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Holy ****!! Henh. Cripes. 7?? damn.
Just goes ta show yah, Russians are hard to kill. ;)
Or it could be that 9x18 ain't much of an anti-personnel round. MV = 315 ME = 306
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Makarov sounds like a pellet gun! LOL!
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Makarov sounds like a pellet gun! LOL!
No I don't!
Makarov 9x18mm round power is between a .380 and 9mm Luger. It's a fun pistol to shoot and cheap ammo abounds. Corbon and Hornady makes some good JHP ammo for them.
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My arsenal Mak doesnt like HP. only time the thing ever jams. I just solve it by keeping the magazine ball, and the chamber with a HP.
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wow... it IS a pellet gun! Looks like I got lucky... the CZ-52's chuckin lead at about 1700 fps with a 525 ftlb whallop... that's up in carbine territory. Not surprising really.. the PPS43 and PPSH, M56 and some versions of the PPL light MG use the same round.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/usacivpol/me/pps43.jpg)
Damn, but the commies are a great source for cheap fun guns. ;)
(http://www.exoticarms.com/Photos/Yugo%20M56%20w-%20acess.jpg)
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actually, with 90 or 95 grain bullets out of a cz 52 the velocity is more like 1450 1500 fps... the tokerev round has a rep for punching a very small hole and not doing much damage most of the time.
The Makarov round is accurate and cheap and about as effective as a 9mm but more controlable in a very small gun...
The makarov pistol is extremely well made and reliable... I have put 400 rounds through two of em without cleaning and no failures. I would trust this gun. It is far better choice than a .380 IMO.
lazs
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a .30 cal hole is not all that damn small a hole, as far as bullet holes go. And I'm not unhappy with it's ability to puch through a wall, table, car door or windshield or light body armor and still deliver a 'hole' in the intended target.
for under 200 bucks.
;)
This is NOT a 1911.. it's a cheapo commie side arm that turned out for me to be a bit better than I'd expected. If it's chuckin a slug at twice the speed and punch of a mak at the same or similar reliability and costs less.. well; that don't make the Mak a bad gun, just makes the CZ a better one if price and punch are two big factors in the decision process. ;)
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hang.... any gun is better than no gun. I am extremely happy with the reliability of the makarov tho.
once you get past that in a handgun I want a .357 or 45 or..... preferably.... a 44 mag.
I have a cut down ruger redhawk in 44 mag that I am very comfortable with.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
Or it could be that 9x18 ain't much of an anti-personnel round. MV = 315 ME = 306
That's 315 meters per second, and 306 pounds is higher than I thought it would be.
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Hangtime when you say 1700fps are you referring to chronographed velocity or specs you've read? Reason I ask is that from what I've read, there are different loadings for this cartridge depending on what weapon is being loaded for.
The submachine gun rounds are listed as about what you are saying, but several sources say they aren't a safe choice for the pistol. The pistol loadings are listed more like 1300-1400fps as lazs pointed out. That would make a significant difference in performance on target, eh?
Another thing I read about this pistol is that barrels are available for it to allow the use of different cartridges, most notably 9MMX19 and 9MMX23. That might be a good (relatively low cost) solution for continued use down the road if the standard ammo gets scarce.
culero
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Suave, you are correct on both counts I think.
From the Winchester Ballistics site:
9x18 Makarov
95 gr. Metric Calibers Full Metal Jacket
Handgun Ballistics
Distance (yds): Velocity /Energy
Muzzle: 1017 (fps) / 212 (ft.lbs.)
50: 925 (fps) / 180 (ft.lbs.)
Other manufacturer loadings are pretty similar.
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Oh also I recommend you Google a little about the decocker. There's lots of anecdotal stuff about these pistols discharging a round if the decocker is used on a loaded chamber.
culero
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Oh also I recommend you Google a little about the decocker. There's lots of anecdotal stuff about these pistols discharging a round if the decocker is used on a loaded chamber.
Yes, if you remove the firing pin safety, which is a common mod when you replace the original firing pin. It is possible for the decocker to fire the gun in rare occasions.
I've tested mine and the decocker will not fire a round. However, I just don't use the decocker. Never muched liked em anyway.
there was a thread over at http://www.gunboards.com a while back where a fellow tested some various surplus and commercial ammo. Most was in the 1500-1600 fps range. With some weaker rounds coming in around 1400 fps. Some reloaders claim upto 1800fps but I think thats probibly pushing ones luck.
They are cheap fun, one day when the supply dries up they won't be so cheap anymore. So, it best to enjoy em while one can.
Plus, they work great for fixing laptops :)
http://www.supload.com/vid/laptop/701139971/wmv/
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I never use decockers or safeties... just old school I guess... most of the things are copies of the walther PPK design which will break and fire the gun. Lots of accidents were really guys using the decocker.
Why bother with it?
For a really cheap handgun that is versitle in the extreme.... able to switch from .22 rimfire to .45 or 357 sig and everything in between in about 10 seconds....
The tanfoglio witness. About 300 bucks used. double action semi auto ina large frame with double stack mags... An exact copy of a cz 75.
change the slide barrel and recoil spring pack and slam in the right caliber mag and voila... a new gun.
lazs
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Any licenses required to own one of those?
Also..
-drool- at the mention of
H&K G3
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Any licenses required to own one of those?
That would depend on your state/local laws.
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Gawd, what an ugly gun.
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I went to pick one up today, and my local store didnt have one :(
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I went to pick one up today, and my local store didnt have one
I believe all the wholesalers ran out a few months ago. Your best bet is to check the classifieds on some gunboards and have a dealer do the transfer.
These were only made for about 3 years. So there aren't exaclty millions of em floating around.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
The Russian guy said "ah ah ... Makarov ... Piece of **** Makarov".
Here PM is like an antonym to Kalashnikov. Hard to hit, hard to kill.
When my Father was shooting pistol as a sport, they had an excersise, "shooting from an army weapon", they preferred APS. At that time Stechkin was offcially one of the army weapons. For "precision shooting" they used customised Nagant 1895 or "Czech revolvers" (38 Special).