Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Easyscor on March 04, 2006, 08:00:21 PM
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At 3pm EST March 5th, we go back to Europe again, only this time in B-17s on the Rhine map in Sky over Odenwald (link here). (http://ahevents.org/site/content/view/45/71/)
Here's a quick rundown on the aircraft setup.
B-17G
P-38L
P-47D-40
P-51D
Spitfire XIV
Tempest
Active fields are A17, A33, A34, A48, A63, A75, and A76.
Bf 109K4
Bf 110G-2
Fw 190 D-9
Fw 190F-8
Me-262
(first 15 minutes only in each frame)
Me-163 (Last 30 minutes only in each frame)
Active fields are A5, A10, A13, A20, and A39
GVs will NOT be used, mostly because of the 90 minute time limit.
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What is stopping the Axis from all taking 262s up? Killing one engine and throttling back will give you plenty of time in the air.
No offense, I was thinking about attending and wanted more info.
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262 flies like s*** with 1 engine. Don't need to cut 1 eng, get above 15k (20k better) and throttle back abit and you double or even triple your flight time. The turbines in the262 suck much less gas over 15k.
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Originally posted by Delirium
What is stopping the Axis from all taking 262s up? Killing one engine and throttling back will give you plenty of time in the air.
No offense, I was thinking about attending and wanted more info.
In the writeup I linked too you'll see there are time windows for the 262 and 163. Basicly you can expect all Axis players to engage with one 262. They may not even be able to reach the bombers in a 163 when the window opens if the bombers have flown out of range. This is the first time this has been run so we'll see how it goes.
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I just say "no" to any senario that includes jets. They saw VERY LIMITED combat in WWII and for my money just UNBALANCE the game
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Not sure how an event designed to use jets is unbalanced by the use of jets :confused:
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Originally posted by ROC
Not sure how an event designed to use jets is unbalanced by the use of jets :confused:
Well first I said "game" and second I feel a senario based on the last month of the war is waste of WWII flight sims time. I would LOVE to see some figures on how many 163's flew in the war. Not many I bet.
But for me its all moot since this new ISP has made the game unplayable, I will probably be closing my account since I can no longer fly on line
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FYI, Me262s were being used in 1944, not just the last month of the war.
EDIT: It first saw combat in July of 44, and 1400+ were built, which is 2 to 3 times more than the 190D!
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Originally posted by Boxboy
I would LOVE to see some figures on how many 163's flew in the war. Not many I bet.
First thing that popped on Google . . . Bold mine that directly answers your question. . . although the last sentence is likely more to your point.
History of the Me163 Komet:
The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet (Comet) rocket interceptor stemmed from prolonged research by D. Alexander Lippisch over 15 years before the war. The prototype was initially test flown as a glider by Heini Dittmar during the spring of 1941 before being fitted with a Walter RII-203 rocket. Powered flights by the Me 163 VI started in the late summer of 1941, flown by Heini Dittmar and Rudy Opitz, and on 2 October the aircraft reached 623.8 mph (1004.5 km/h); two months later the Me 163B Komet was ordered into production. Production Me 163Bs were powered by Walter 109-509A rocket motors using T-Stoff (hydrogen peroxide) and C-Stoff (hydrazine hydrate, methyl alcohol and water) to give a thrust of 3,748 lb (1700 kg). Early Me 163B-0s were armed with a pair of 20mm guns, but Me 163B-1s carried two 30mm weapons. The aircraft possessed no conventional landing gear, but took off from a trolley which was jettisoned immediately after take-off. Introduction to Luftwaffe service was a protracted and hazardous process owing to difficulties in handling the fuels and a number of fatal accidents, and only very experienced pilots were selected. Production Me 163B-1a fighters were built at Brandis, near Leipzig, in June 1944 and first intercepted B-17 Fortress daylight bombers on 16 August that year. All manner of difficulties faced the pilots, apart from the hazards already mentioned, and it was found difficult to aim and fire the guns with the result that upward firing 50mm shells and under wing rockets came to be developed. Although some 300 Me 163Bs were produced (as well as a few Me 163Cs with increased fuel) and JG 400s other two Grupen re-equipped by the end of 1944., only nine confirmed air victories were achieved by the Geschwader.
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Yep just as I suspected only 300 or so produced and fewer than that actually flew and ONLY 9 CK's
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Victories alone doesn't mean they weren't used. It just means they were off target, or out of range, and went all the way up there and came all the way back down without being able to attack the bombers.
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The first combat ready aircraft,the Me 163B V14 (VD+EW),arrived at Zwischenahn in jan. 1944 and was flown by Rudolph opitz who simulated an operational mission at 24,000 feet.By 31 janurary 1944 the first Me 163 staffel with 12 Me 163's was subordinated to the command of Luftlotte reich.First it was part of JG-1 and recieved the designation of 20./JG 1.Only one month later the unit was renamed 1./JG400 commanded by Oberleutnant Robert Olejnik.
The first combat action occured on 13th May 1944 when major wolfgang spate tried to shoot down a P-47 over northern germany,spates rocket fighter went to fast ,broke the sound barrier and overshot his intended victim.
From 10 july 1944 the 2nd and 3rd staffeln both belonging to I./JG400 were sent to Brandis where a strong combat unit was established with radar support and enough C-stoff and T-stoff to carry out defensive missions.The first B-17 was shot down by Leutnant Harmut Ryll at the end of July 1944.On August 16th 1944 3 allied aircraft were shot down Lt. Hans Bolt and Feldwebel Schubert and feldwebel Strassnicky.Leutnant Ryll's fighter was hit by a P-51.
After another,unconfirmed,victory near Venlo by I./JG400 early in August 1944,the unit was transferred to Brandis on 6 september 1944.Two days later the Fuhrungsstab of the OKL declared that the me-163 was now fully operational and ordered the establishment of four new staffeln(4.,5.,6. and 7./JG400).These were equippped with Me-163B rocket fighters,thus forming a second Gruppe,II./JG400.
After Leutnant Schreiber had damaged an Allied bomber and forced it to drop out of formation,he shot down another on 11 September 1944-the seventh kill of 1./JG400.Two days later the 2./JG400 carried out 9 unsuccesful intercept missions.Early in October 1944,some 30 Me-163's were available at brandis,near Liepzig where one of the most important industril regions was situated.But Allied bomber missions by-passed the area so it was impossible to intercept them.
During that time Robert Olenjiks unit,the (replacement) Erganzungsstaffel of JG 400 was enlarged to a third Gruppe(III./JG400) of the sole rocket fighter gerschwader.It was ordered by the OKL to set up 2 more Staffeln,the units were transferred to Udetfeld.Pilot training was concentrated near Gelnhaussen where all available Me 163 A's,some Me 163 gliders and a few fully equipped me 163B-1 fighters were gathered.During the final stages of flight training the men were suppose to fly some 15 hours with the rocket fighter before moving on to the combat formations of JG 400.During that time the lack of fuel hindered the secong gruppe of JG 400 and only a limited number of intercept missions were attempted.
On 20 and 30 November 1944 heavy bombers of the 8th Army airforce headed to Brandis and industrial targets around this Luftwaffe base.During that time I./JG400 had 31 Me 163's with 9 ready for action.Parts of the unit were sent to Stargard near Settin to protect an important refinery.There were nine rocket fighters stationed there,of which four were operational.On 12 december 1944 the units based near Stettin were redesignated 5. and 6./JG400 and formed the nucleus of II./JG 400.At the end of 1944 major Wolfgang Spate returned from Russia and started to form the geschwaderstab of JG 400.Spate became the first geschwaderkommondore of the sole rocket fighter Gerscwader comprising 3 gruppen each planned to be a four Staffeln.
Due too the russian advance in janurary 1945 Udetfeld was evacuated and the III. Gruppe was moved to sprottau,then to Brandis where some 100 Me 163's were dispersed in the woods surrounding the fighter base.the II. Gruppe was far from any noteworthy activity in the air.Only a few interception missions were carried out from Zwischenahn and from Brandis.But in march 1945 the JG 400 pilots claimed 3- b-17's downed,but those kills were credited to 262 pilots.
After it became obvious that the Allied ground command forces would shortly reach Brandis it was evacuated.On 16 April 1945 the base was captured by the 60th Armoured Infantry battlion which found some 300 aircraft,mostly destroyed,standing in formerly well camoflaged boxes standing near by.
The production of the Me 163 was considered to be a total of some 360 of 454 projected aircraft,of which more than 433 were estimated to be ready for delivery before janurary 1945.Between may and september 1944 no more than 55 to 65 Me 163B's were manufactured by messerschmitt and under licence by Klemmworks at Boblingen.During the last month it proved impossible to deliver enough me 163's as ordered.Due to the lack of both engineer's and workers,the number of the Me 163's produced were small.By 27 September only 16 rocket fighters had been handed over too the Luftwaffe.By October 1944 some 61 aircraft were completed.In November only 22 were handed over.Due to the concentration of manpower and more specialists being engaged in me 163 production some 89 Me 163b's were produced.In Janurary 195 only 30 were completed with only 3 in feburary 1945 and only 4 were completed in march 1945.
This is somewhat a tally of 163 flight.there were not near as many 262 flights,any way this is a sample of what i have in my library,i hope it helps.
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I never said they were not used Krusty, I said they had little or NO effect on the war as they came too little too late. AH is primarily a WWII sim, if we want jets then lets have a korean war mod.
My point is we see more jets in the MA on any given day than were built almost, I have no objection to including the jets in historical setups but they should be limited and scarce as they were in the war.
I think it is a mistake to even ALLOW them in them in the MA but then that is just my own feelings others see it differently. I feel the same about historic setups that they should only be less than 2 or 3 percent of total axis aircraft even in a historic sense, and this senario would allow EVERY ONE to take one for a "limited" time.
While we are at it Krusty I would like your source on 1400 262's being built?? Is that under construction or completed and flying aircraft?? I love the way you make it sound like in 1944 there were 1400 operational 262's.
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Originally posted by Boxboy
I never said they were not used Krusty, I said they had little or NO effect on the war as they came too little too late. AH is primarily a WWII sim, if we want jets then lets have a korean war mod.
My point is we see more jets in the MA on any given day than were built almost, I have no objection to including the jets in historical setups but they should be limited and scarce as they were in the war.
I think it is a mistake to even ALLOW them in them in the MA but then that is just my own feelings others see it differently. I feel the same about historic setups that they should only be less than 2 or 3 percent of total axis aircraft even in a historic sense, and this senario would allow EVERY ONE to take one for a "limited" time.
While we are at it Krusty I would like your source on 1400 262's being built?? Is that under construction or completed and flying aircraft?? I love the way you make it sound like in 1944 there were 1400 operational 262's.
Another internet pull . . . BTW, JG7 and JV44 referenced below were both equipped solely with 262s.
Due to chaotic situation at the end of the war it is hard to be exact, but its is believed that JG7 scored nearly 500 victories, JV44 about 50 and the NJG10/11 48 victories. Ref: Bernd Barbas, "Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" claims that JG7 had 'close to 500 victories', JV44 'only about 50'. Jeffrey Ethell & Alfred Price, "World War II Fighting Jets". The Me262 in the fighter role 'caused the destruction of no more than 150 allied aircraft'. Osprey Aviation, "Aircraft of the Aces, German Jet Aces of World War II", lists 28 Aces (5 or more victories) with more than 228 victories for the Me262. <> William Green, "Warplanes of the Third Reich: states that JG7 'was to claim no fewer than 427 kills' and JV44 'some 50 kills'.
Obviously there is variation in the numbers and someone with more time and patience I am sure could find better examples than this.
Another source basically refers to Krusty's 1,400 production number and says 300+ were operational monthly for the last 6 months of the war.
And for the record, they would have / should have been available by late 1942 or early 1943 but for the interference of Hitler, who wanted them converted from interceptors to ground-attack aircraft, thus delaying the final acceptance and production runs. Not that this has anything to do with your arguement, I just find it interesting -- it should have had a much larger impact than it did.
With the massive perk points required to up a 262, I do not see it as being unbalancing to the MA at all. For a scenario, if the target is near a 262 base, then heck ya, they would see a lot of jets.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
This is somewhat a tally of 163 flight.there were not near as many 262 flights,any way this is a sample of what i have in my library,i hope it helps.
Think you meant to say, "Not near as many as 262 flights", i.e. 262s were far more common than 163s.
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262s were far more common than 163s.
Actually no they weren't,the German's had far more problem's keeping the 262's in the air than the 163's.If i can research this info then so can you.
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Originally posted by Delirium
What is stopping the Axis from all taking 262s up? Killing one engine and throttling back will give you plenty of time in the air.
No offense, I was thinking about attending and wanted more info.
This event uses missions. If the CM wanted to limit the number of 262's then the mission could easily reflect that by having minimal slots available. As it turned out, there were more 262's used than maybe should have been (3 out of 9 axis pilots, I believe), but the allies managed to clobber the target and many made it home in one piece (or 2 hehe).
It would be very nice to get some squads involved in this event. even 2 or 3 committed players from a half dozen different squads would realy liven up the event.
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Originally posted by Boxboy
Yep just as I suspected only 300 or so produced and fewer than that actually flew and ONLY 9 CK's
The goon didn't get many kills either. I vote we remove it from the game.
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Engine, the use a 262 in a scenario is a little different than the MA. Scenarios and single day events try to closely emulate history as much as possible within a game enviornment.
Suffice to say, I saw the number of possible 262s in this scenario, raised a question (note I was the 1st reply) and used that to decide whether or not I would attend.
It seemed that a rather large number of 262 sorties would be flown (far above what was done historically) so I decided not to attend. It has nothing to do with having a grievance over one plane or another.
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Oh, I know. Personally, I don't think I'd find a scenario packed with 262s and 163s fun, even if historically accurate (which apparently this is not?)
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Originally posted by Engine
The goon didn't get many kills either. I vote we remove it from the game.
Hmmm one was a fighter the other a cargo plane, you having some apple and orange problems Engine??? I Note your from the "city" maybe thats the problem LOL
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Actually no they weren't,the German's had far more problem's keeping the 262's in the air than the 163's.If i can research this info then so can you.
Guess I am missing something. I base my statement on the facts I found (granted, with a limited amount of time/patience on my part).
Basically, 300 163s vs 1,400 262s produced.
9 kills from 163s vs up to 735 in 262s.
300+ 262s operational each month last 6 months of the war despite fuel shortages and other operational difficulties. With 300-360 of the 163s produced and similar operational difficulties, I would assume far fewer 163s were available at any given time than 262s.
Finally, on a purely anecdotal (therefore, purely useless) level, I have read many articles in WW2 magazine where they interview bomber pilots or gunners or such from the air campaigns. Several of them refer to 262 attacks. I can not recall any of them referring to a 163 attack. (Again, anecdotal and therefore unreliable, especially given the state of my memory, but I throw it out there anyway.)
So that is why I am truly puzzled by your comment.
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Originally posted by Boxboy
Hmmm one was a fighter the other a cargo plane, you having some apple and orange problems Engine??? I Note your from the "city" maybe thats the problem LOL
I don't care, we should still remove it and ferry troops on those wonderful huge-wheeled 1800s bicycles. With invasion stripes.
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FYI: I did a quick search on Google, pulled up 2-3 links any they all had similar listings (1400 +/-) so I used that number.
262s were fairly common. Consider that even if hte 1400 is the "produced" and not the "active" number, the same ratio is probably found in the 190Ds, of which only 600-or-so were built (that's produced, not "active"). ~600 is from memory. Maybe ~700. That's still 1/2 to 1/3 the total numbers of the 262. Also, jet fuel was not so scarce as the Dora's fuel, since there were only a couple of different jey types using it, yet most of the prop-driven force was fighting for the same gas the Dora had.
The 262 was (anecdotally) a lethal contender in the war. One might as well say the SpitXIV should be removed from the game because it only had so many kills. Or might as well say the C-Hog should be removed because only 200 were made.
You can't just say "The 262 should be removed because it didn't do anything" -- when it did do stuff. Lots of it. It didn't turn the war, but then neither did any other LW planes.
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As for the scenario run:
It was about a dozen Allied pilots, consisting of late war planes including Tempests, escorting numerous B17s. We had 2 axis pilots just as the timer was about to start. Then a 3rd came in. So it was us 3 Me262s vs 12+ enemy, and their fighters would be all gunning for us. We had no qualms what-so-ever taking up 262s if only for their speed.
As we were getting airborn a small group of other axis pilots showed up in the non-jet mission (Ta152s, 190Ds, and 109K4s I think) and they took off as well.
So... you think jets are the uber, do you? You think jets are so hot that they're instant killers, eh?
*cough*bs*cough*.
They have speed. That's it. They are not manuverable in the least. They are prone to instant damage from snapshots. Hell I got all of 1 pass on a set of b17s before I lost a rudder, which means I couldn't hit s*** afterwards. I tried to make 2 more passes but I couldn't aim without a rudder, so I tried a slower approach to give me more time to correct and Mr lazer-buff-gunner shot me to s*** right on the spot.
262s the great equalizer, right? WRONG!! :p
There's no problem with them in scenarios or in the MA, because they suck so bad. Those that disagree don't fly them. Even if you know how to fly one, you're not going to dogfight one, you're not going to play P51 in one, because pull 5Gs and you rip wings off, dive too fast and you compress (easily done in a 262), you can't accelerate fast, you lose an engine and you're barely able to fly steady at 250mph, your gun fire very fast so if you're not careful you can literally waste 380 rounds of 30mm in 1 firing pass, you can't kill in 1 pass even if you get multiple hit sprites on a bomber, because the 30mm are porked or the bullets are rubber (happens to me all the time, numerous hits no damage), you can't do anything once you sustain damage.
The plane sucks. No reason to remove it.
Once you get 160 perks or so take one up and see for yourself. Just be ready to lose those perks the second you take off, because there's a 80% chance you won't make it back with your aircraft intact.