Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Urchin on March 05, 2006, 10:16:59 AM
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At least I guess it is from there, someone emailed it to me and said it was. It seems like one of the argument shows from Fox or CNN, but the woman just shreds the cleric who is supposed to be arguing with her.
I am kind of surprised they even aired it, given the Muslim culture.
Anyway, enjoy.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
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She is soooo DEAD. Couragous lady, though.
I would like to see the whole interview, especially the response of the Muslim thiest.
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Wow! Now if only the rest of the billion could just pull their head out of their collective corn holes.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
She is soooo DEAD. Couragous lady, though.
I would like to see the whole interview, especially the response of the Muslim thiest.
Yeah i would be checking the car out before I started it each morning if I was her. Many good points though, would really liked to see the other guys thoughts since the only thing he seemed to say was, well you don't believe so I don't have to talk with you.
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Yep I caught the bit that if you are a heretic you are not worth discussing the issues with.
She really dominated the clip but I wonder if there was more to it other than her speech. I disagreed on a couple points but nothing really major.
Rather than an avowed athiest, a "believer" stating much of those points would have had more impact. As soon as she claimed being an athiest (not by term but by description of her non belief in any god) she lost all chance to really have a dialogue with the other 2 in the clip. They would simply dismiss her out of hand like the one cleric did and that would carry over to the other mislims watching. If that's the case she is wasting airtime since no one would listen to her. Pity really
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She will be well acquainted with the concept of beating your head against a brick wall if she continues to try and use logic in a dicsussion with those fools.
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Dago,
She's a woman in what appears to be the middle east in the arab areas. I'd gather she is well acquainted with banging her head against the "arab wall".
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Psychologist? pfft.. Psychology is just a bunch of liberal junk science.
She hit so many nails on the head so fast I dub her the human hammer.
Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me
That's secularism in a nut shell.
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Like I always said, whatever the race
"The insults start where the brain stops".:)
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Not sure where this originally aired... but look at the source who put the clip together.
"Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI's headquarters is located in Washington, DC"
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Interesting dialogue.
Originally posted by crowMAW
She is soooo DEAD. Couragous lady, though.
She'll probably be OK, if she was actually speaking from AJ. Al Jazeera radio is in Qatar, which apparently is fairly moderate compared with other Arab states.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Yep I caught the bit that if you are a heretic you are not worth discussing the issues with.
She really dominated the clip but I wonder if there was more to it other than her speech. I disagreed on a couple points but nothing really major.
Rather than an avowed athiest, a "believer" stating much of those points would have had more impact. case she is wasting airtime since no one would listen to her. Pity really
And therein lies the rub. A Muslim does not believe in the rights of non Muslims
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They need her on the Pat Robinson Show too.....
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Originally posted by parker00
Yeah i would be checking the car out before I started it each morning if I was her. Many good points though, would really liked to see the other guys thoughts since the only thing he seemed to say was, well you don't believe so I don't have to talk with you.
I think I'd leave the car in the parking lot, get plastic sergury and catch a plane to a non muslim country.
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it ain't a car; its a goat and her brother just sold her into slavery in thailand.
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This woman is crazy, unpatriotic, arab-hating, freedomist loving liberal. :mad:
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This woman has more courage and common sense than anyone I have heard from the middle east.
She is right on the money If only those with the power would pay attention to people like her then we could stop all this killing.
to her and those like her.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This woman is crazy, unpatriotic, arab-hating, freedomist loving liberal. :mad:
Heres a women stating the obvious facts and you say this???:mad:
Thumbs up to this women:aok
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
Heres a women stating the obvious facts and you say this???:mad:
Thumbs up to this women:aok
LOL Kaw, you bit hard on that one. Might take a while to untangle that hook in your mouth hehe.
Great clip.
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This interview was aired a week or two ago, El-Jazira most likely. I have not seen it since I don't really watch these channels (or any other channel actually) but it was mentioned in Israeli newspapers.
There are growing forces in the middle east for democracy and religious freedom. Mostly in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. On the other hand religious extreemists are getting more extreme. This woman was very brave to throw it all at their faces, hopefully more will not fear and follow.
If there's a chance for a liberal, democratic arab country, I'd place my bet on Lebanon and the Palestinians. Long before the Iraqies end their civil war.
Bozon
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Amen..WoW!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This woman is crazy, unpatriotic, arab-hating, freedomist loving liberal. :mad:
And your point is?
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WOW big
to her, too bad it probably won't sink in. Ed McCleric's final response will be infidel must die, since heretic didn't seem to work.
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What is the link for that?..Like to send that to someone.
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Its subtitled, a few minutes long...but from what I saw, she's the bravest woman in the Middle East who "gets it".
Link (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1050#)
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That's some good stuff. She didnt say anything we didnt already know... But I wouldnt want to walk to my car after saying what she said, where she said it. She's got some big cajones. You go girl.
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NY Times article about this lady (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1142276780-jaXJTWmnrIk+xNgo6+vb3g&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)
I liked this part...
Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."
She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."
She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
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LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.
Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.
In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.
She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.
Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.
In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.
"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.
Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."
Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."
She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."
She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.
She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.
DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."
"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."
The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."
Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.
But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.
"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County.
After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.
BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.
An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.
In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."
Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.
Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.
"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."
She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.
The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.
Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.
One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."
Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.
"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/03/10/international/11sult184.jpg)
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"She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people." "
never even read the whole thing but that is a silly statment.
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"Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles"
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Salman Rushdie just took his deepest breath in 25 years.
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Originally posted by Pongo
"She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people." "
never even read the whole thing but that is a silly statment.
Not really...
Germans killed alot of jews, but what did jews do to germans? Nothing violent.
What does the muslim world do when someone draws cartoons of Muhammed? Burn down embassies and kill people.
Which of them has more influence on the western powers?
Which one is losing even the little influence they have?
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Israeli Jews have been attacking Mosques and murdering Palestinians and vice versa; it's naive to think jews haven't killed (innocent) people.
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Originally posted by Staga
Israeli Jews have been attacking Mosques and murdering Palestinians and vice versa; it's naive to think jews haven't killed (innocent) people.
Hardly the same as with muslims though.
Jews might be taking out palestinians with heavy weapons, but they don't just go and blow up civilians because they don't like palestinians.
They didn't have a problem before the war though.
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History shows that for 100 years plus there was a significant amount of what would now be called "terrorism" committed in the name of zionism in the middle east. Much of it was directed at the occupying British, but there were dozens (probably hundreds) of cases where it was directed at Muslims/Palestinians too. This insurgency was one of the main reasons the British left and championed the creation of a state via the UN. But after 1948 all the activity taken by the Israelis against the arabs is clearly NOT terrorism (IMHO), but a matter of a state defending itself.
I also wanted to voice agreement with those who say this lady will get little to no traction with the muslim faithful. She is an avowed atheist, it would be useful if someone said those kinds of things and supported them with words from the koran. But the faithful will ignore any attempts by an atheist to sway their opinion on matters of faith.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Hardly the same as with muslims though.
Jews might be taking out palestinians with heavy weapons, but they don't just go and blow up civilians because they don't like palestinians.
They didn't have a problem before the war though.
Would entering a mosque with an assault rifle and recklessy shooting anything that moves be enough ?
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interesting reading:
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0694/9406008.htm
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Id like to see the complete interview. I enjoyed that. She is to be commended.
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Staga, jews, acting on their own, have done things that are wicked and evil...no doubt.
But I have yet to hear of a jew, or a christian for that matter, blowing himself up to kill women and children. Maybe it has happened but I havent heard about it.......have you heard of a christian or jew blowing themselves up to kill women and children?
Btw staga, you ever get a name of an innocent american wrongly executed in the united states since the death penalty was reinstated?
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Yeager; I told you earlier you should learn how to use Google:
http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html
http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm
http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/lcp/articles/lcp61dAutumn1998p105.htm
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles"
lol whats odd about it... ?
Im [lol it was wrong bloody history) Roman Empire - Czech living outside Pakomerice
:D
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Originally posted by Wolfala
LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.
Fellow Muslims? She's not a muslim, says so herself.
I don't get what the story is here. American ex-muslim thinks Islam sucks? So what?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Not really...
Germans killed alot of jews, but what did jews do to germans? Nothing violent.
SH also did nothing voilent to US did he ? :D
Well first of all germans were not first who attempted to annihilate or restrict jews in the Europe.
Genocides agains jews came to central europe with Judaism.
There was nothing wrong with them, it was just typical "problem," that they manage to create sooner or later.
Typical pre-war german argument which describe it.
"Look how many % of population in Berlin are jews. Now look how many % of lawyers are jews."
You can say, that jews didnt do nothing voilent to german... ummm yes... but voilence is not the only one way how to hurt people is it ?
Originally posted by Fishu
What does the muslim world do when someone draws cartoons of Muhammed? Burn down embassies and kill people.
They go out and express their feelings... we call it freedom. If they clash with police and some of them get killed, its up to investigators to find out what has happen and who caused sutch things. Anyway if you would like to find some bloodthirsty christians, you can find plenty of them http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/118/32.0.html .
I guess we can agree that way, how people behave is not strictly related to religion.
Its not quite exact to say, that A-Bomb has been used by christians to kill as much civilist as possible. Is it ?
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Originally posted by lada
You can say, that jews didnt do nothing voilent to german... ummm yes... but voilence is not the only one way how to hurt people is it ?
Then how exactly did the jews "hurt" pre-WW2 gentile Germans?
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Staga, none of those links provided the name of a single person proven wrongfully executed. There were half a dozen cases where arguments could have been made to commute the sentance to life due to questionable law enforcement procedural errors, but nothing to prove a innocent person was executed.
If you can ever come up with a name that has been proven wrongfully executed in the US since the death penalty was re-instated in 1977, I would love to see it.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Then how exactly did the jews "hurt" pre-WW2 gentile Germans?
Its wrong question.
German NSDAP were nacionalist party not religion, thus word "gentile" is pontless.
You should ask: Why did NSDAP mind non-real-german.
Keep searching for NSDAP's official rhetoric before WW2. (1920+)
Enjoy google. Main Kampf is also interesting source, if you are realy interesting in it.
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Yeager; do you think US hasn't executed anyone "wrongfully"?
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Originally posted by lada
SH also did nothing voilent to US did he ? :D
[/b]
He was a dictator who wanted to stay in power, hardly a threat to US.
You can say, that jews didnt do nothing voilent to german... ummm yes... but voilence is not the only one way how to hurt people is it ?
[/b]
Thats the beauty of it - they didn't need to resort in violence to get in power and do what they want. I think thats what she's saying in between the lines.
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Staga,
I would not be surprised if it has happened. Although I would be surprised if it has happened beyond a doubt since 1977.
Let me ask you this, if its wrong to stop putting violent murderers to death because one innocent person was wrongfully executed, would it be wrong to stop putting people in prison for life because we know that innocent people have been wrongfully sentenced to life in prison?
If we stop doing necessary things because we make mistakes then why do anything at all?
What I would say is never allow a mistake to happen in a case that involves human life.
Impossible?
Thanks for being reasonable :)
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Originally posted by Yeager
Let me ask you this, if its wrong to stop putting violent murderers to death because one innocent person was wrongfully executed, would it be wrong to stop putting people in prison for life because we know that innocent people have been wrongfully sentenced to life in prison?
No, that's still too harsh.
The right method is to pat them in the head, tell them not to do it again, sentence them for 5 years in prison and release in 2 years.
If the convicted person made crime as part of a gang, then rest of the gang members should be fined for an assault - like kicking once or twice - and for carrying a knife in public. If neither of the conditions is met, then the gang member should be released without fines.
BTW. that's a true story from over here, except for the part about release in 2 years (news from couple weeks back). A drunken man was stabbed to death by a gang of three (or more? didn't tell); one member stabbed him three times, another member kicked him couple of times and the third member carried a knife. They tried to defend their actions as self-defence, claiming that the drunken man had threatened them and tried to assault, however the judge didn't buy this excuse. Regardless, the killer was sentenced for 5 years in prison, another fined for kicking the victim and the third fined for carrying a knife in public. A demand for compensation of 16,000 euros by two brothers of the victim was turned down by the judge on the basis that they weren't thought to have been closely related relatives anymore. The killers were quite young, ranging from 15 to 18 years old; though, 15 y/o's are legally responsible for their crimes.
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Yeager,
Good job in dealing with staga. You gave him the opportunity to put up, he can't do it, maybe even he will realize it's time to shut up. I won't hold my breath waiting for it though. :rolleyes:
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I don't trust any juridical system to be perfect; mistakes happen always. Problem with death sentence is there's no way to pay compensation to the wrongfully convicted.
Maverick; do You think your juridical system is so perfect it hasn't killed anyone without a reason?
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Staga,
If you want perfection in anything to do with humanity you are going to be perpetually disappointed.
Now until you have something other than the same repetitious bleating you've been doing about this subject why don't you just go and watch TV or something else that doesn't require thought on your part. You haven't provided anything to the discussion.
TANSTAAFL and there is also nothing perfect about humans, humanity or any society. All of it is flawed in some way shape or form. Deal with it.:rolleyes: (we REALLY need the old rolly eyes thing back!)
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Originally posted by Pongo
"She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people." "
never even read the whole thing but that is a silly statment.
Or... "Ignorance is bliss" eh Pongo? :rofl
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Originally posted by Maverick
Staga,
If you want perfection in anything to do with humanity you are going to be perpetually disappointed.
So in other words it's OK for you if your government murders innocent human being every now and then, even if it's someone from your own family?
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Staga,
I believe that there are some human beings that perform such horrific acts that they need to be destroyed. Serial murderers, child murderers and people that murder without remorse or murder for pleasure. I believe we must execute these humans with compassion wherever possible, but they sould be executed, and within a reasonable amount of time. Fifteen years on average is about thirteen years too many for me.
I would rather concentrate on making absolutely sure that no innocent person ever loses their life by means of capitol pnushment then say that no capitol punishment should ever occur due to the chance that a innocent person may be mistakenly executed.
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So for you it's OK an innocent dies sometimes in chair or by poison?
Or are you thinking your judical system is free from mistakes?
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Typical pre-war german argument which describe it.
"Look how many % of population in Berlin are jews. Now look how many % of lawyers are jews."
You can say, that jews didnt do nothing voilent to german... ummm yes... but voilence is not the only one way how to hurt people is it ?
Thats the beauty of it - they didn't need to resort in violence to get in power and do what they want. I think thats what she's saying in between the lines.
lol, So the Jews attacked the Germans by becoming lawyers and bringing Germany about 1/3 of its Nobel prizes before 1933 (when they fled to the US)?
Just for the record, the historical reason for so many Jewish lawyers bankers and doctors is that Jews were restricted in their allowed proffessions. They were not allowed to own land or heavy industry or goverment works or a military career. So, if you had education you'd be a banker, lawyer etc, if not you'd become a merchant or a small crafter such as a goldsmith. The other consideration is that these are businesses that are easy to transfer in case some good people decide to kick you out of the city/country.
This is true for most of europe.
Bozon
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No, it is not ok, but that does not change my opinion. Certain crimes must be punished with death.
Yes, the US judicial system makes mistakes, plenty of them. Too many people who should be executed are not being executed, but I have yet to see concrete proof that a innocent person has been executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1977.
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Did a bunch of Nazi's escape to Finland and spawn a bunch of anti Semites or is it just the ones who post here?
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How about if the U.S. send's all it's death-row inmates to Finland? Anybudy up ferdat?
:aok
Tumor
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Did a bunch of Nazi's escape to Finland and spawn a bunch of anti Semites or is it just the ones who post here?
No idea what you're babbling about. Oh did you just pull up the race card?
Wow :)
Tumor; US has created its problems itself so why should Finland take care of their criminals?
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staga... which innocent people have we executed? can you name one?
and... while you are working on that.... please try to get the difference between killing a mad dog who is a danger to anyone around him and political or religious executions.
lazs
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Laz,
He won't provide that which will actually give him an argument to post. He's already been asked that same question more than once and has failed to answer it yet. Sadly he has degenerated to the point where he is only occupying the space (very small space I might add) left when gscholz was banned. In short, he's a troll and not even a very good one either. It would be a waste of bandwidth to respond to him any further.