Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: F4UDOA on March 07, 2006, 08:56:47 AM
-
In almost every aircraft in AH there is a choice of ammo load at takeoff. Even in smaller A/C that didn't carry much in the first place.
However in the F4U and F6F where there is clear historic evidence that an "interceptor" loadout was used there is no ability to carry less than 750lbs of 50 cal ammo no matter what the purpose.
Please give the F4U/F6F a 1/2 ammunition option of 1200 rounds of .50 cal. This is not a major adjustment and would allow these A/C to be scrabled when a carrier is under attack and additonal climb rate is required.
I can provide documention as to this loadout if needed.
-
I guess I am the only one flying Navy planes in AH.
-
I would fly them more if some one would teach me how with better than average odds of surviving.
-
Most of the times I get snipped in by an F6fs. Seems the only way they can get kills, espeically on us Pony Pilots.
Now back to your subject:
The term "The whole nine yards" came from having to choose fuel VS ammo due to wieght restrictions.
Those whom flew close in carrier support got to carry all 27 feet of 50 cal belts that fit in the ammo boxes. (27ft = 9 yards) they would limit the fuel they carried, they could fly in, fuel, relaunch quickly.
-
Well, it's pretty easy not to get killed in a Pony when all y'all do is run. ;) I'm always seeing P-51s skedaddle from my solo F4U when there hasn't been any other cons around if they couldn't force a HO. :D
-
Considering the term "whole 9 yards" didn't show up til the 70s, I doubt very much it is war related. Too many urban myths surround that phrase. It's relatively modern, NOT WW2 related, NOT sail-ship related.
Just as an aside.
EDIT: Well the problem with light ammo loads is this:
These planes (f6f and f4u) have relatively medium ammo loads, as-is. I often need all of the ammo just to get a few kills, and that's WITH firing conservatively, and WITH picking my shots well.
I have (many a time) unloaded every last shot into a bomber (or formation) and not gotten a single kill. In an f4u I unloaded every shot into 3 lancs, making 7 passes or more, and ended up getting only 3 assists, with millions of hit sprites.
So *IF* you have to get up there in a hurry, the lesser ammo load (I'm thinking about equivelant to P40E, right?) you'd not get any kills.
Having considered that, I'm all for it, if you can prove it was very common. You have to prove what time frame it was used in (and if the aircraft we have match that time frame), what groups used it, how many used it, how often they used it, and how widespread that use was across the entire fleet. Hell, 1/3 the total 109G-6s had 30mm, but our model doesn't have it anymore, because it's a mid-era G-6. Under the same logic, we have to make sure things like this reduced ammo fit the time frame for the f4us and f6fs, and other things.
If you have all that info and it all "gels" with the models we have, then I'm all for it!
-
Originally posted by Saxman
Well, it's pretty easy not to get killed in a Pony when all y'all do is run. ;) I'm always seeing P-51s skedaddle from my solo F4U when there hasn't been any other cons around if they couldn't force a HO. :D
The number One vulcher of Ponys in the 10k and below alt range are F6Fs.
We are in a 2.5 ROC at 150 and sitting ducks until we get speed up.
When we get to 10k or higher, we rule the skies :-)
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Considering the term "whole 9 yards" didn't show up til the 70s, I doubt very much it is war related. Too many urban myths surround that phrase. It's relatively modern, NOT WW2 related, NOT sail-ship related.
Not only did I here this from a WWII pilot, and my father. It was on the History channel a few years ago.
Id ask a WWII air vet if you can find one. My 86 year old unicle is here for my mothers funeral. Ill make sure to ask him. He was a B-17 pilot in WWII.
-
I have no idea where the whole 9 yards came from. But I can show Grumman and Vought docs showing "Interceptor" Loadouts with 50% fuel and ammo.
That being said the F4U and F6F carry 750lbs of ammo. Much more than the pony and way more thay any euro or Japanese fighter I am aware of. The P-47 carried more total rounds and weight and the P-38 carried less rounds but around the same weight.
In any case the P-47, P-51, P-38, FW190, 109 all have variable ammo loads.
All I am asking for is 1 additional ammo option.
Then we can talk about getting some Tiny Tim 11.75 inch rockets.
-
AMEN F4UDOA!
Lets get some other ordinance load out options for those beautiful blue birds!!!!
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
That being said the F4U and F6F carry 750lbs of ammo. Much more than the pony and way more thay any euro or Japanese fighter I am aware of.
Typhoon ? 190A8 ?
-
Straffo,
The Tiffy has 140 rounds per gun * 4 = 560 rounds.
The C-Hog carries 924 rounds of the same ammo which weights about as much as the 2400 rounds of 50 cal in the D-Hog.
The A-8 really is a gunship. It carries a load of 780 rounds of 20 mil and 950 rounds of 13 mil. Not as many total rounds but I am sure the weight is way up there.
However the A-8 has an infinite number of ammo load and gun options. The F4U and F6F you are 100% everytime unless you want to shoot off all your ammo on the way out.
-
Hey Krusty, what convergence settings do you use? And are you just talking about hitting Buffs or fighters, as well?
Given that I rarely survive long enough to burn my full loadout as it is and still manage multiple kills I wouldn't have much trouble with the lightened load.
-
Saxman, bombers mostly, but also vs fighters. I'm trying FS Auto start to see if that helps any.
Just checked numbers offline:
Hog1: 2350 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
DHog: 2400 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
F6F: 2400 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
FM2: 1720 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
P47 light/heavy: 1602/2550 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
P47 light/heavy: 2136/3400 total 50cal rounds (8 guns)
P51B: 1860 total 50cal rounds (4 guns)
P51D: 1880 total 50cal rounds (6 guns)
So, while the DHog does have more ammo, it's not that much more than some. It is only 27% more than a P51D, it is the same as the F6F, and it is less than a light P47.
I think it might be interesting to see a second ammo load out. I don't think I'd ever use it, but it would be nice. Thougth I'd just check what AH US planes had, 50cal wise. Oh, and the P30 has 2000 rounds of 50cal, and that's with only 5 guns! As you can see, the heavy ammo load was common and probably necessary, based on stories I've heard where pilots say they just press the trigger and keep pressing it while in turns and so forth.
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Straffo,
The Tiffy has 140 rounds per gun * 4 = 560 rounds.
The C-Hog carries 924 rounds of the same ammo which weights about as much as the 2400 rounds of 50 cal in the D-Hog.
I forgot the C-Hog as there are now pretty rare in the MA ...
-
Hm. I USUALLY don't have much trouble with having to unload into most single engine fighters when I'm hitting the target (the occaisonal frustrated spraying not included). Convergence set to d300 in an F4U with shots at anywhere between 200-400yds range typically has been doing a quite nice job sawing off parts for me with a couple half to one-second burst against most of the more common single-engine birds (although again, this is when the shot hits).
Maybe it's a connection thing? I've noticed you seem to have a lot of rubber bullets issues even with taters.
Bombers I have to agree, tho. .50 cal in general doesn't seem to do much to Buffs unless you're lucky enough to get a pass that puts your guns in just the right spot (3-4 passes with sustained fire against a B-24 earlier tonight only managed to light one engine on fire. He went down, yeah, but that was a lot of ammo). I had one of those sorties myself a couple days ago, where I sprayed the hell out of a formation of Lancs, including starting one smoking, but only got three assists for the trouble (that was a bad day. Everything was an assist :( ).
-
If you look at the listings for the F4U and F6F they have three or more loadouts listed.
The fighter loadout is approx 178 gallons for both and 1200 rounds. The overloadload fighter condition is full fuel full ammo and then the next is fighter bomber.
Like Saxman says what good is 2400 rounds when your wings are flying in one direction and your fuselage in the other.
350lbs is a big deal when you are dodging Spit XVI's and La7's all day.
-
Originally posted by Mister ED
Now back to your subject:
The term "The whole nine yards" came from having to choose fuel VS ammo due to wieght restrictions.
It's in reference to emptying your guns not choosing betweem ammo load out vs. fuel. Example of usage, "I gave that rice ball the whole nine yards and he blew up like 4th of July fireworks."
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Considering the term "whole 9 yards" didn't show up til the 70s, I doubt very much it is war related. Too many urban myths surround that phrase. It's relatively modern, NOT WW2 related, NOT sail-ship related.
Nope, it's not relatively modern and while no concrete proof as to the origin of this phrase it is widely regarded to have started in WW2 as part of the combat pilots slang.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
In almost every aircraft in AH there is a choice of ammo load at takeoff. Even in smaller A/C that didn't carry much in the first place.
I would like to see an accurate ammo/ordnance loadouts for each plane. There are ordnance load outs that were commonly used by some planes that aren't reflected in here. The P-38L was capable and often did carry 3 1,000 pound bombs but there is no such option. F6F was capable of carrying those big 11 inch rockets (forgot the name of them) but again, that's not an option for the Hellcat in AH.
ack-ack
-
The Phrase Finder
The whole nine yards
Meaning
All of it - full measure.
Origin
Of all the feedback that The Phrase Finder site gets this is the phrase that causes the most feedback and the most disagreement. At the outset it should be said that no one knows the origin, although many have a fervent belief that they do. These convictions are unfailingly based on no more evidence than 'someone told me'.
It is most likely that, as with many phrases, it originated in colloquial use and has been appropriated as a general term meaning full measure. It crops up in many contexts, which isn't surprising as there are many things that can be measured in yards. This leads to many plausible explanations of the phrase's origin; regrettably, plausibility isn't enough.
The earliest known reference to the phrase in print is as recent as 1967 in 'The Doom *****', a novel about the Vietnam War by Elaine Shepard. In that context the phrase refers to the difficulties a character has with disentangling himself from an unwanted marriage. It isn't clear if the author coined the phrase herself, although the manner of its use in the story would suggest not. Ms. Shepard died in September 1998, so unfortunately we can't ask her.
Although the precise origin of any particular phrase may be difficult to determine, the date of its coinage usually isn't. Phrases that are accepted into common use appear in newspapers, court reports, novels etc. very soon after they are coined and continue to do so for as long as the phrase is in use. Anyone putting forward an explanation of an origin the the whole nine yards that dates from before the 1960s has to explain the lack of a printed record of it prior to 1967. If, to take the most commonly repeated version for instance, the phrase comes from the length of W.W.II machine gun belts, why is there no printed account of that in the thousands of books written about the war and the countless millions of newspaper editions published throughout the 1950s and 60s? The ideas that it pre-dates the war and goes back to the 19th century or even the Middle Ages are hardly plausible.
These are some of the versions going the rounds: take your pick...
It comes from the nine cubic yards capacity of US concrete trucks and dates from around 1970s.
The explanation refers to World War II aircraft, which if proved correct would clearly predate the concrete truck version. There are several aircraft related sources, 1. the length of US bombers bomb racks, 2. the length of RAF Spitfire's machine gun bullet belts, 3. the length of ammunition belts in ground based anti-aircraft turrets, etc. No evidence to show that any of these measured nine yards has been forthcoming.
Tailors use nine yards of material for top quality suits. Related to 'dressed to the nines'?
The derivation has even been suggested as being naval and that the yards are shipyards rather than measures of area or volume.
Another naval version is that the yards are yardarms. Large sailing ships had three masts, each with three yardarms. The theory goes that ships in battle can continue changing direction as new sails are unfurled. Only when the last sail, on the ninth yardarm, is used do the enemy know which direction the ship is finally headed.
A mediaeval test requiring the victim to walk nine paces over hot coals.
If anyone has any hard evidence of this phrase being used before 1967, e.g. an appearance of the phrase in print, we would love to see it. Please post your feedback at the Phrase Finder Discussion Forum - but please, evidence not conjecture.
http://www.babylon.com/definition/whole/English
-
Having lighter loadout possibilities for some of the fighters would really be nice, also taking into account the max takeoff wight would be nice.
When you say full ammo+ full fuel is already to heavy, how can one take off with full ammo+ full fuel+ bombs + rockets?
-
I just noticed this DOA, sorry for not posting earlier. While the F6F had the largest wing area of any WWII Single Engined Fighter, I love this thing. I agree, we SHOULD have the option of ammo choices in both the Hellcat and Corsairs. I always wondered why this has happened?
Karaya
-
Murdr has it spot-on. There's also another theory that says it came from a sportscaster making a comment about a football game. I think this might be likely because football started getting really popular in the 60s and 70s.
-
Really hate to burst your bubble Krusty but you can find ample evidence that it was used by pilots in WW2. For example in "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum he mentions telling his ground crew how he fired the whole nine yards.
ack-ack
-
There a quote? What's the date of publication?
-
Yes, post the publication date.
It's one thing to remember exactly every word said on an arbitrary date in a hectic time of one's young life, on a date that happened half a century ago. It's another to paraphrase, or pick a similar saying that conveys the same meaning but wasn't the exact words used at the time.
Heck, there are several WW2 pilot-authors that don't have their facts straight, as has been reported by several members of this forum. Who's to say he wasn't sitting there trying to remember what happened, then just phrased it in his words *now* about how he was feeling *then*.
-
F4u and F6f have mediocre ammo loads? LOL, they have the biggest baddest ammo loads in the game just about, good for 10+ kills easily.
-
I think a lot of that was in regards to attacking heavy bombers, which yeah, with .50 cal you may as well be spitting on those buffs.
-
At the risk of sounding like an AH wuss I generally fly the other way if I am up in a 50 cal bird and not in a position of advantage attacking buffs.
With 50 cals I find the HO works best. Flying up the tail is just a waste of time and (virtual) sheet metal.
-
Sorry Krusty, but I think I'll take the word of ASA, and people who were in the war,Geoffrey Wellum, Mr Edds dad, My grandfather, and many more, over you.
The machine guns of a P-51 Mustang were fed by ammunition belts that were 27 feet long. After a pilot emptied his guns on a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards"
here is where I recieved my information, One of the highest respected Aviation knowledge companies.
Test Pilot- 1,001 things you thought you knew about aviation. Berry Schiff .. Aviation supplies & Academics,. inc Newcastle, washington 2001
-
The point is the publication is a recent one, so you don't know if the pilot is substituting a contemporary phrase. He REMEMBERS saying it, but that may be because it's something so ingrained in the culture now that it's worked its way into memory.
(Read a story not long ago about the infamous "Thunderbird Photo" where the same thing happened: The legend of it became so wide-spread and well-known that people began to remember--GENUINELY--having seen the pic in one magazine or other, even though it never REALLY existied).