Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ChopSaw on March 08, 2006, 11:40:27 AM
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Some say American rides are under modeled in this game with regards to their performance. Others say the LW rides are broken. Who’s right?
I don’t personally have the credentials to answer this question and I know there are some genuine experts in the AH community. I will, however, mention what Chuck Yeager had to say on the subject. He felt that the P51D Mustang was the best plane in WWII for air superiority. He loved the thing and felt it out performed the German rides hands down. Since he was one of the best pilots this nation has ever seen and was actually in WWII fighting with and against the above aircraft, I would think his thoughts on the subject would have some validity.
Anyway….comments?
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i thought he said the longnose 190 was the finest piston engined fighter he ever flew.
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Yeager became an Ace in a Day by knocking down German training planes. He was also shot down.
His superior (rank wise) Bud Anderson says the P-51 and German rides were VERY closely matched in ways of performance. His book, To Fly and Fight; Memoirs of a Triple Ace, is a very good read.
I think it's a sense of nationalism that makes these claims sprout up. HT has come forward many times to say that they use the most reliable information they have at the time to model the aircraft; unbiased as possible.
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the american rides aren't undermodelled at all. there is one problem with the german rides, and that is the flap speed, they should come down at slightly higher speeds. and the 109g14 doesnt perform as it should, both of which HT is fixing i think.:aok
HT tries to model everything as accurately as possible, it's the companies main goal, accuracy
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Yeager became an Ace in a Day by knocking down German training planes. He was also shot down.
Whoa hold on here. He shot down Bf109s that day.
Also I believe he was the victim of a randomizer hit.
See Page 5. (http://www.chuckyeager.org/htm_docs/1944_mia2/yeager_report_660.pdf)
If every pilot who was shot down opinion was discounted then the vast majority of the LW aces would not be good references as most were shot down multiple times.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
Some say American rides are under modeled in this game with regards to their performance. Others say the LW rides are broken. Who’s right?
I don’t personally have the credentials to answer this question and I know there are some genuine experts in the AH community.
The best expert have said:
Originally posted by hitech
Ill state it as plainly as I can.
We never have nor ever will adjust models based on the country of origin.
HiTech
And you can ignore the other "experts" that claim otherwise (mostly the "Luftwhiners"). With time, you will see who they are.
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Originally posted by Fencer51
Whoa hold on here. He shot down Bf109s that day.
I'm pretty sure I read that they were training aircraft in the book. I'll have to browse through it again.
I may have been confused by the other guy in the Ace in a Day list at MustangsMutangs.org
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Bf109's of III/JG26 is what I recall. And the Yeager quote regarding the Fw190 was "It was the only one in the same class as the Mustang" referring to the various captured planes he flew at Wright Field.
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Yeager's '5 claims in one day' includes 2 aircraft that supposedly collided with each other and one that augered.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Yeager's '5 claims in one day' includes 2 aircraft that supposedly collided with each other and one that augered.
Source?
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See Fencer's link for one (chuckyeager.org)
12 Oct '44 (http://www.chuckyeager.org/htm_docs/1944_2.shtml)
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Most ace pilots that flew decent 1944-45 rides, be they German, Soviet, Brit, Japanese all say they liked "plane X" and that it was a match for the enemys.
The differences tend to get way overblown on the BBS "oh ya, it was 8 mph faster and it could so this with the flaps at one notch" blah blah blah.
In any case anecdotal sources can tell you the mindset of the individuals (they were confident, wow, what a surprise), but not much else concrete.
Yeager flew Mustangs, he was an ace, he survived the war. Its no shock he speaks highly of it.
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I like how his biography page claims he was "the first ace in a day". :rofl
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Originally posted by Squire
Most ace pilots that flew decent 1944-45 rides, be they German, Soviet, Brit, Japanese all say they liked "plane X" and that it was a match for the enemys.
The differences tend to get way overblown on the BBS "oh ya, it was 8 mph faster and it could so this with the flaps at one notch" blah blah blah.
In any case anecdotal sources can tell you the mindset of the individuals (they were confident, wow, what a surprise), but not much else concrete.
Yeager flew Mustangs, he was an ace, he survived the war. Its no shock he speaks highly of it.
Yeager flew more than the P51D in that war. That just happened to be his favorite. He shot down others with other planes, but the 51D was the one he thought best. I believe I'll take the word of someone who was actually there with their life on the line. The Mustang kept him alive.
Further, pilots of the P38 loved their planes as well. They had a right to. It was and is modeled in AH as a very sophisticated ride. In its element and in the hands of a good pilot it is darn near unbeatable. Witness what pilots such as Ack-Ack did with it. However, even they admitted the P51 was better at air superiority. It wasn’t as good at multi purpose jobs, but it was better at air superiority. The Luftwaffe freaking hated Spitfires and what they could do. Even proponents for other aircraft give aircraft that aren’t their favorites their due.
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Originally posted by Sable
I like how his biography page claims he was "the first ace in a day". :rofl
Wasn't he? Perhaps the first American ace in one day? He never seemed to be the kind of guy that would claim something that wasn't true.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
Wasn't he? Perhaps the first American ace in one day? He never seemed to be the kind of guy that would claim something that wasn't true.
He wasn't even the first P-51 pilot to accomplish the feat, let alone the first American or first ever.
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I heard / seen / read him tell his 'ace in a day story' several times. It changed each time:
I was leading the whole fighter group, which means three squadrons. Our fighter group only had two boxes of bombers to escort. So I stuck the other two squadrons, one on each box of bombers, and took my squadron and ranged about 80 miles out in front of the bombers. Climbing up, out in front of the bombers, I stayed up-sun where they couldn't see. I spotted them, they were little specks. I had spotted 22 ME-109s and couldn't let them see me. I kept up-sun from them with my squadron of sixteen P-51s. Finally, when they leveled out and headed over towards the bombers, I just moved in behind them, down-sun. I got within two hundred yards behind them. They kind of spread out. We still had our drop tanks on because we wanted to keep as much fuel as we could. I shot down the first two without even dropping my tanks. Of course, with the explosions when the airplanes blew up, they all broke and at that point we punched our tanks off and the whole squadron broke up into elements, wing man and his leader. To support each other. We got in a big old hairy dogfight, and I shot down another guy. I hammered him, and his wing man cut the power and dropped behind me. This one blew up and that broke into him. Pulled out at about 50 feet before I hit him. And then another guy, I followed him to the deck, got him down low and then it was all over with.
Chuck Yeager Interview page 2 (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/yea0int-2)
To hear it his own words or watch a short video scroll down 'til you see this question:
How did you come to shoot down five German planes in one day?
on the ChuckYeager.org site they list him with:
By war's end he had downed 13 enemy aircraft, five in a single day.
Where by he's officially credited with 11.5...
Wasn't he? Perhaps the first American ace in one day? He never seemed to be the kind of guy that would claim something that wasn't true.
I don't recall off hand but I believe there was another 'Chuck' (Charley maybe), an F6F pilot, who claimed 5 in a day in Sept '44.
I don't think he's 'claiming things that aren't true' its just sometimes that 'fish' aint quite as big as one remembers...
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Originally posted by Sable
He wasn't even the first P-51 pilot to accomplish the feat, let alone the first American or first ever.
He also wasn't the first man to exceed the speed of sound in an airplane... But, Yeager never let the facts get in the way of his legend....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Squire
Most ace pilots that flew decent 1944-45 rides, be they German, Soviet, Brit, Japanese all say they liked "plane X" and that it was a match for the enemys.
Gunther Rall (Günther Rall, Guenther Rall) said that he liked the 109F the best. He also said he liked 262's and Ponies (he flew some of the captured planes while teaching new group leaders). But most of his kills (totaling 275) are in a 109G, I'd imagine.
He also said that the best tactic against a P-47 in a 109 is "to shoot it down". :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
He also wasn't the first man to exceed the speed of sound in an airplane... But, Yeager never let the facts get in the way of his legend....
My regards,
Widewing
I'll really need to see some documentation of that allegation. As far as I've been able to determine, Yeager was the first man to exceed the speed of sound. He did it in Bell Lab's X-1 rocket plane.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
I'll really need to see some documentation of that allegation. As far as I've been able to determine, Yeager was the first man to exceed the speed of sound. He did it in Bell Lab's X-1 rocket plane.
Ive read stories in flight journal that an f-86 test pilot broke the barrier before yeager . Now "IN LEVEL FLIGHT " is a different story.
Thx bruno for the sources .
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This is a bit off the topic of the thread, but....
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier: “ Hans Guido Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier on April 9, 1945 in a Messerschmitt Me 262. However, this claim is disputed by most experts and lacks a scientific foundation.
George Welch apparently broke the sound barrier on October 1, 1947 while diving the subsonic XP-86 Sabre. 14 days later, 30 minutes before Yeager's historic flight, Welch apparently repeated his supersonic flight. Although evidence from witnesses and instruments strongly imply that Welch achieved supersonic speed, the flights were not properly monitored and cannot be officially recognized. (The XP-86 officially achieved supersonic speed on April 26, 1948.)
Chuck Yeager (then a Major in the US Air Force, later a Brigadier General, promoted in 2005, 30 years after his official retirement, to Major General) was the first person to break the sound barrier in level flight on October 14, 1947, flying the experimental Bell X-1 at Mach 1 at an altitude of 45,000 feet in a rocket. Yeager's flight was part of a test program with the goal of achieving supersonic flight so proper monitoring was in-place for the flight.
Chuck Yeager is officially credited with being the first person to break the sound barrier "in level flight" (see the video below). This leaves the door open for claims of previous supersonic flights made while diving.”
From http://history.nasa.gov/x1/chuck.html: “On October 14, 1947, Yeager broke the sound barrier over the town of Victorville, California.”
From http://www.who2.com/chuckyeager.html: “Chuck Yeager was the first human to fly faster than the speed of sound. A combat pilot in World War II, Yeager was shot down over France in 1943, but managed to escape without being captured. After the war he was put in charge of pilot training for experimental aircraft, and on October 14, 1947 became the first person to break the sound barrier, flying a rocket powered Bell X-1 jet.”
From http://history.nasa.gov/x1/chuck.html: “On October 14, 1947, Yeager broke the sound barrier over the town of Victorville, California.”
From http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/aviation/1280546.html?page=1&c=y: “Editor's Note: This article originally ran in our November 1987 issue. It was the 40th anniversary of the day Gen. Yeager climbed into the Bell X-1 and became the first man to travel faster than the speed of sound.”
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North American was required by the USAF not to reveal or claim supersonic speeds for the F-86 until after the X-15 had broken the barrier.
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Ouch they had to sit on their speeds till 1958-59 ? hehe think ya ment X-1:aok
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I don’t care what any of youse sez. Chuck Yeager was and probably still is a great American pilot and one of the best pilots this or any other nation has ever seen. Three major wars the guy flew in. WWII to Vietnam. Whatever you want to say about this guy or whatever you don’t want to believe about him, he achieved more than any of us can ever dream of doing. He’s a freakin hero in the most classical sense.
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Originally posted by 38ruk
Ouch they had to sit on their speeds till 1958-59 ? hehe think ya ment X-1:aok
Yeah, big fingers.
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Yeager was a great test pilot. There were a lot of better fighter pilots. Several made ace in two wars.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yeager was a great test pilot. There were a lot of better fighter pilots. Several made ace in two wars.
As you are taking a wiz in my church, I believe I will have to say that is a load.
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BOW YOUR HEADS!
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the best one was clearly marseilles. he knocked down PFartys by merely giving them a stern look.
Gelbe14
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
I'll really need to see some documentation of that allegation. As far as I've been able to determine, Yeager was the first man to exceed the speed of sound. He did it in Bell Lab's X-1 rocket plane.
I've done more research on this one topic than most college students do in the course of 4 years.
I've talked with Welch's son, and other family members. I've talked to witnesses and more than a few people out at Dryden and Edwards AFB. I've spent many hours interviewing test pilots who flew with Welch as well as USAAF pilots who flew with George in the Pacific. There's absolutely no doubt that Welch beat Yeager... None. The total weight of evidence is overwhelming.
By the way, I never cease to be amazed at how much wikipedia material is blatant plagiarizing of copyrighted property. Their comments on Welch were taken from Al Blackburn's book and/or my articles in Flight Journal and on the web without any accreditation to either author.
Back in 1998, I had the opportunity to review the final draft manuscript of Al Blackburn's book, Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One. Al was a North American test pilot, and he worked under Welch. Al's book chronicles the events occurring at Muroc back in the summer and fall of 1947. Al presents tremendous evidence that Welch beat Yeager, and did so while incurring the wrath of the Air Force and Stuart Symington. When Al's book was released in 1999, it started a firestorm which has not abated yet. On the dust jacket are brief review blurbs written by the former Director of the National Aviation and Space Museum, Walter Boyne and former Secretary of the Air Force, John McLucas. Oh yeah, my review is on the dust cover too, just above theirs.. ;)
I went a bit further than Blackburn, taking the time to gather a concensus from members of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. Virtually to a man, those I spoke with agree that Welch beat Yeager. I followed up by tracking down additional family members and members of the North American team. Everything I uncovered only reaffirmed what Blackburn had already established.
It's a long, long story and I cannot tell it here with any justice. However, you can read about Welch in detail, in my article The Amazing George Welch (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html).
This article presents not only Welch's supersonic exploits, but his remarkable war record as well. Read the piece and you'll have a much better understanding of what happened back then and why it happened.
Did you know that Welch was also the first man to exceed Mach 1 in level flight in an air-breathing aircraft? He did this on the maiden flight of the first Super Sabre (YF-100, there was no XF-100).
I am in the process of writing an in-depth piece on Welch, having learned much more about his career and personal life since my previous articles were published almost 6 years ago. I have a considerable collection of photos, including some taken when Welch was flying with the 80th FS of the 8th FG. Welch was credited with 16 kills in WW2, including four at Pearl Harbor. That excludes several kills that, according to squadron mates, Welch never bothered to submit paperwork for.
Just so people know, Welch and Yeager worked together on many occasions. If Welch needed a USAF chase pilot, he always asked for Yeager. For his part, Yeager held Welch in very high esteem, but thought that Welch took too many chances, and he was right.
When the USAF stated that the XS-1 was the first supersonic aircraft, they lied deliberately. Admitting that a privately funded jet fighter prototype had done it first would have undermined the credibility of the newly minted USAF. It also would likely have forced a review of their research budget by Congress. An Air Force plane piloted by an Air Force pilot HAD to do it first, or the consequences could be far reaching. Moreover, Larry Bell was a personal friend of Truman, and the President had stated that Bell would get the first opportunity at the sound barrier. Of course, George Welch was flying an aircraft that was capable of greater than Mach 1 in a shallow dive. Welch didn't give a damn what the Air Force said and with the eye-winking blessing of XP-86 program manager, took the XP-86 to at least Mach 1.02 on its maiden flight. He repeated this two weeks later to the day, and about an hour before Yeager pushed the XS-1 to Mach 1.06 in a slight climb.
Virtually everyone at Muroc understood that Welch had swiped the thunder of the XS-1 program. However, the XS-1 was classified program and the USAF clamped a lid on the story as soon as it leaked. They postponed any official announcement that the XP-86 had gone supersonic until April of 1948. Nonetheless, NACA Officially clocked the XP-86 at Mach 1.04 on November 13, 1947. Welch flew the same profile he had previously flown on the 1st and 14th of October. Despite this, the USAF felt it necessary to delay releasing this to the press to protect their research programs. In fact, the USAF had no specific time table for announcing anything on either the XS-1 or the XP-86. Its hand was forced when a reporter for Aviation Week magazine leaked the story of the XS-1 flight in the December 1947 issue.
By the way, almost no one knows that Welch spent time in Japan and Korea demonstrating the F-86. According to a family member, Welch flew 11 combat sorties with the 4th Fighter Wing over North Korea. His log book reportedly shows that George claimed to have shot down three MiG-15s during two of those sorties. No official claims were filed as Welch was not supposed to be flying combat missions. These kills were assigned to pilots in the squadron by drawing cards. Until I get copies of the log book pages, I can't make that claim in print. Currently, this is the one item holding up the project. If and when we can get the reclusive Jay Welch to allow examination or partial copying of his dad's log book, then I can get it finished and off to the publisher. Jay answers e-mails infrequently if at all, so I'm trying to enlist the help of his cousins.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Yeager became an Ace in a Day by knocking down German training planes. He was also shot down.
His superior (rank wise) Bud Anderson says the P-51 and German rides were VERY closely matched in ways of performance. His book, To Fly and Fight; Memoirs of a Triple Ace, is a very good read.
I think it's a sense of nationalism that makes these claims sprout up. HT has come forward many times to say that they use the most reliable information they have at the time to model the aircraft; unbiased as possible.
Me-109 training planes?
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Emm,, this:
"Gunther Rall (Günther Rall, Guenther Rall) said that he liked the 109F the best. He also said he liked 262's and Ponies (he flew some of the captured planes while teaching new group leaders). But most of his kills (totaling 275) are in a 109G, I'd imagine."
He liked the 109F out of the 109's
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So, what do these Chuck Yeager's valid opinions say about AH2's American rides being under modelled or LW rides being broken? :rolleyes:
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Currently, this is the one item holding up the project. [/B]
Really excellent research, Widewing, thanks for posting this.
- oldman
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Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Yeager.
But the fact is that if he hadn't been chosen to fly as a test pilot.
Most of you would never have heard of him.
There are many WWII Aces with many many more kills, explots, etc.
That are never ever heard of. Never talked about, and seldom refered to.
Yeager happened to be good enough, and lucky enough to get picked for the X series as a test pilot. I also do believe the man likes the limelight a bit. :)
Both of which played in his favor.
When it comes to who has a better feel for WWII airplanes, I'd rather hear from Bong or a host of other WWII Aces who had more time in theatre, more kills, and more combat than Yeager.
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Yeager also thought very highly of the P-39 at low altitudes dogfighting with it.
I don't know if he was the best pilot but he certainly wrote one of the best books I have read from former aviators.
There are at least a few pilots credited with 5 or more kills in a single mission.
Boyington, O'Hare, and Dave McCampbell who shot down 9 airplanes in 90 minutes. He must have been flying in the MA in an obviously overmodeled Hellcat.
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Rober Stanford Tuck also made 5 in a day in a Spit I.
Perk the Spit I !!!!
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In january 1940, Lt Sarvanto shot down SIX DB-3 bombers with his Fokker D.XXI fighter in FIVE minutes ;)
Read more about it!!! (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace26b.htm)
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Ive read stories in flight journal that an f-86 test pilot broke the barrier before yeager
Was that your article WideWing? I'm trying to remember how long ago i read it , Maybe 3 years ago? could be 2 yrs . thx 38
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Originally posted by Widewing
the maiden flight of the first Super Sabre (YF-100, there was no XF-100).
I am in the process of writing an in-depth piece on Welch, having learned much more about his career and personal life since my previous articles were published almost 6 years ago. I have a considerable collection of photos, including some taken when Welch was flying with the 80th FS of the 8th FG. Welch was credited with 16 kills in WW2, including four at Pearl Harbor. That excludes several kills that, according to squadron mates, Welch never bothered to submit paperwork for.
Looking forward to the completed work Widewing :)
One question regarding his 80th Headhunter days. Stanaway's book on the 8th FG implies that Welch didn't exactly win hearts with the 80th FS in terms of the other pilots as he saw himself as a bit of a primma donna and celebrity. It mentions at one point he was confined to his hut for breaking rules and had his food brought to him. He apparently treated enlisted men even worse then the other officers.
Has that been your take on him?
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Originally posted by BlauK
So, what do these Chuck Yeager's valid opinions say about AH2's American rides being under modelled or LW rides being broken? :rolleyes:
Nothing and you're correct. The thread has taken a different direction than its initial intent. However, the initial thread was addressed and now we've moved on to another interesting thought.
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Originally posted by BlauK
In january 1940, Lt Sarvanto shot down SIX DB-3 bombers with his Fokker D.XXI fighter in FIVE minutes ;)
Read more about it!!! (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace26b.htm)
Every source I've seen except the one you posted says the time was 4 mins??
Not that it matters, 4 or 5 minutes...pretty fast anyway! :)
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excellent pilots on all sides of the war, but by the time yeager made it overseas most of germanys leading aces were dead because of a serve till you die policy.bad strategy, instesd of rotating aces into training squads. they fought till they died. but a great pilot nonetheless as he was not a vet. either.still and most important....chuck yeager is no CHUCK NORRIS.because all CHUCK NORRIS would have had to do is crouch low on his wing and when enemy plane appears in sight jump into a flying spin and give the enemy aircraft a roundhouse kick to the prop...rendering it unflyable..S~ to all of the aces.
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Larry Blumer, 367th FG, ("Scrapiron IV") got 5 x 190's in 15 mins in a P-38J on 25th Aug 1945.
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Larry Blumer, 367th FG, ("Scrapiron IV") got 5 x 190's in 15 mins in a P-38J on 25th Aug 1945.
Kev,
It is a good thing Cr:tmpp isn't here anymore or you would have been in alot of trouble for bringing that up, Ouch!!
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Hi Widewing,
>By the way, I never cease to be amazed at how much wikipedia material is blatant plagiarizing of copyrighted property. Their comments on Welch were taken from Al Blackburn's book and/or my articles in Flight Journal and on the web without any accreditation to either author.
You could point it out on the discussion page, linking the original source (or providing the ISBN). There's a standard operation procedure for such cases somewhere, but usually the Wikipedia admins pick up even a non-formal hint pretty quickly.
(Pointing out copyright violations does actually help the Wikipedia's cause! The sooner copyrighted content is removed, the better. In an ideal world, none would ever be entered :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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comparing what happened in WW2 to a game is fruitless.
The 51 was the best because of its long range.
The F86 was supersonic. Well had least my dad made it go supersonic.
You have to start at 40,000 ft though ;-)
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Originally posted by HardRock
comparing what happened in WW2 to a game is fruitless.
The 51 was the best because of its long range.
The F86 was supersonic. Well had least my dad made it go supersonic.
You have to start at 40,000 ft though ;-)
He also flew the F-82, correct?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Looking forward to the completed work Widewing :)
One question regarding his 80th Headhunter days. Stanaway's book on the 8th FG implies that Welch didn't exactly win hearts with the 80th FS in terms of the other pilots as he saw himself as a bit of a primma donna and celebrity. It mentions at one point he was confined to his hut for breaking rules and had his food brought to him. He apparently treated enlisted men even worse then the other officers.
Has that been your take on him?
Welch was resented by many simply because of his being elevated to hero status in the press and by the Army. General Arnold though very highly of Welch and looked after him to the extent that commands he served in were required to keep Arnold's office informed of his well being. His celebrity status and coddling by Arnold almost certainly annoyed his fellow pilots.
Welch was certainly a rebel, having little regard for authority. He was continuously in hot water with his commanders. Within North American Aviation he was never viewed as being arrogant. He was, however, known for not fitting the mold. Some guys may march to a different tune, but Welch brought his own band.
When Welch was flying P-39s with the 36th, he had become unhappy flying ground support missions. With its limited range, the P-39 simply could not bring the war to the enemy. He wanted the P-38, but was told that they would not transition to P-38s as long as an adequate supply of Airacobras existed. Welch went on a one-man campaign to get rid of the P-39s. In the span of two weeks he bailed out of or ditched three Airacobras, claiming engine trouble or some other mysterious failure. Having already requested transfer to a P-38 outfit, his exasperated CO finally approved his request before he trashed anymore P-39s. When he arrived at the Headhunters, he had only engaged Japanese aircraft twice, yet he had seven kills (4 in the P-40B, 3 in the P-39D, scored on Dec 7, 1941 and Dec 7, 1942 respectively).
My regards,
Widewing
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25 Aug 1945? Did he crash land them all? :D
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I am glad I wasn't the only that caught that. Of course he means 25 Aug '44 (some sources list it as 28 Aug '44). As for which unit those 5 lost 190s were attached to I don't think its been positively indentified.
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"Some say American rides are under modeled in this game with regards to their performance. Others say the LW rides are broken. Who’s right?"
42
-C+
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Originally posted by Widewing
He also wasn't the first man to exceed the speed of sound in an airplane... But, Yeager never let the facts get in the way of his legend....
My regards,
Widewing
A bit surprising to hear this from you Widewing. Then again, all I know is probably the legend, and you as always know the real facts. That's what makes your info so good to read :aok I've read the Welch story on your website by the way, fascinating read.
I've heard before that fighter pilots have big egos, same could be said about someone like Galland. Of course Yeager is something of a legend even if his fish aren't as big as he remembers ;)
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Originally posted by Widewing
Welch went on a one-man campaign to get rid of the P-39s. In the span of two weeks he bailed out of or ditched three Airacobras, claiming engine trouble or some other mysterious failure. Having already requested transfer to a P-38 outfit, his exasperated CO finally approved his request before he trashed anymore P-39s.
LOL. He would be a natural for the Gunfighters.
- oldman
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My post as well, has nothing to do with slamming Yeager or his accomplishments as an airmen, which are many.
However,
"Yeager flew more than the P51D in that war. That just happened to be his favorite. He shot down others with other planes, but the 51D was the one he thought best. I believe I'll take the word of someone who was actually there with their life on the line."
Im sorry but you have that wrong, he was posted to England in 1944 and flew P-51s for his entire time as a combat pilot with the 357th FG. All of his P-51s he named "Glamouras Glennis", of which there were eventually three. He was just a Lieutenant in the 8th Air Force flying fighters, he was not some world expert on all the combat planes in that war, allied or axis, that wasn't his job.
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Originally posted by hogenbor
A bit surprising to hear this from you Widewing. Then again, all I know is probably the legend, and you as always know the real facts. That's what makes your info so good to read :aok I've read the Welch story on your website by the way, fascinating read.
I've heard before that fighter pilots have big egos, same could be said about someone like Galland. Of course Yeager is something of a legend even if his fish aren't as big as he remembers ;)
Yeager has been a disappointment with regard to this issue. He was well aware of what Welch had done. In my piece, you will have seen that Welch deliberately boomed the B-29 carrying the XS-1, with Yeager aboard. I've been in an HU-16 (Grumman Albatross amphib) when we were boomed by a Cuban MiG-21 and it will rattle your teeth.
Back in the 1947 and in following years that Yeager remained in the Air Force, I can understand why he would not discuss the event. Certainly at the time all of these events were classified. However, I have been told that he has reacted with anger to being asked about Welch and who really was first. A few people who know Yeager have mentioned that he is likely a victim of his own legend. I doubt that Yeager will ever admit even the possibility that Welch beat him... In his mind, his legacy is at stake. However, I believe that Yeager is not diminished in any way by the truth.
No one can take anything away from Yeager as a test pilot. He was among the very best of his era. He accomplished many firsts, and was held in the highest regard by his contemporaries. Indeed, I believe he demonstrated more common-sense and engineering understanding than Welch did. Back in 1954, Yeager advised Welch NOT to perform a structural demonstration (max G pullout and max speed) because Yeager believed the F-100A was completely unstable in its yaw axis. Welch blew off Yeager's advice and flew the demonstration.
From my article:
"His flight card called for a symmetrical pull-up at 1.55 Mach. The maneuver would generate more than 7 Gs. As he began the maneuver, the airflow over the wing suddenly burbled, completely blanking the newly redesigned and smaller vertical stabilizer. The fighter yawed slightly and then suddenly turned partially sideways to the direction of travel. The nose folded up at the windscreen and crushed Welch in his ejection seat. Miraculously, the seat fired and carried Welch clear of the plane as it disintegrated. Ejecting at supersonic speeds is not only hard on the human body, it’s hard on parachutes as well. Welch’s chute was nearly shredded by the violent blast of air. With many panels blown out, the rate of descent was much too fast to avoid serious injury, or even death. When rescuers arrived at Welch’s side, he was barely alive. He died before he could be transported to a hospital."
It was never determined if Welch's fatal injuries resulted from the hard landing or occurred as the aircraft came apart. Either way, he died needlessly.
Several more pilots were killed by the F-100A before North American redesigned the vertical stabilizer and reworked all previously manufactured and/or delivered "Huns".
Yeager was right, Welch should have listened to him.
Yeager took his share of chances as well, such as when he ignored the warning of NACA engineers and pushed the X-1A to Mach 2.44 on December 12, 1953. Its previous maximum speed runs had only been to Mach 1.5, so this was a huge step. Yeager lost control at 75,000 feet, tumbled down to 35,000 feet, where a battered Yeager came to and tried to wrestle the plane from an inverted spin. He recovered at 25,000 feet and landed safely. However, the X-1A had been subjected to at least 11 g in all axes.
These men were advancing the science of aeronautics in huge leaps and bounds. They were highly celebrated individuals, and they certainly showed egos equal to their status. The mere fact that Yeager survived these years is probably a miracle.
Here's a bit of irony for you to digest.
Back in 2000, I received an e-mail from the office of the USAF historian stating that even if Welch had achieved Mach 1.02 in the XP-86, it would not qualify as the record due being accomplished while in a dive.
However, on November 20, 1953, Scott Crossfield was awarded the record for being the first man to fly faster than Mach two. To attain the speed of Mach 2.005, Crossfield had to dive the Douglas D-558-2 Skyrocket from 72,000 feet down to 62,000 feet.
When Yeager challenged the record being awarded to Crossfield (Yeager had attained Mach 2.44 in level flight), he was told that it made no difference, first is first whether level or diving.
Likewise, the first British aircraft to officially exceed Mach 1 was the De Havilland DH.108. Test pilot John Derry lost control of the DH.108 while diving. While the Swallow raced towards the ground, completely out of control, it did manage to just barely exceed Mach one before Derry recovered control. So, this has been accepted as the record, but it was not only done in a dive, but in an uncontrolled dive to boot.
Finally, I should mention that Roland (Bee) Beaumont was the first Brit to fly faster than sound. He did so in the, you guessed it, XP-86. He did so on May 21st, 1948. By this time, the XP-86 had already been flown beyond Mach 1 more than two dozen times. Moreover, like Welch, Beaumont did so unauthorized. He did it just because he could and because he wanted to experience it for himself. This flight prompted the USAF to make the announcement that Welch had previously exceeded Mach 1 on April 26th, 1948... Can't let a Brit steal the Air Force's thunder like Welch did with the XS-1 program.
In a interview done in 2000, Beaumont stated, " North American had been ordered by the Pentagon not to announce the fact that they had flown the Sabre at the same time as the XS-1 and probably even a few days earlier - that had been suppressed because the XS-1 had to be seen to be the first one to achieve the speed of sound and with a USAF test pilot, Chuck Yeager. So I said this was jolly interesting and he said "Well, it's more interesting than that, because since all that happened the USAF has been saying they want to fly it too." About a month before I got there an American test pilot had reached Mach 1 in the Sabre and now it was my turn. I had a very good briefing; I knew exactly what to do and how to do it. I wasn't told that I could fly at Mach 1, but I thought this is a chance in a million, I'll do it. It was a very straight forward aeroplane, wonderful to fly and I saw Mach 1 on the Mach meter. In the debriefing afterwards there was a certain amount of confusion and George Welsh, the project pilot, said "This is going to cause a ruckus when it gets around!" I said I hope it wouldn't cause embarrassment, and he said "No problem, we've handled these things before. Undoubtedly, you're the third chap to have done it in this aircraft; I don't think the authorities gave us the authority to tell you to do it." So I said "Well, you didn't tell me to do it did you? You just told me it had done that and I didn't see any reason why I shouldn't have a go", and that's the way we left it. Then years went by and I was fascinated to see earlier this year the book called 'Aces Wild' by Al Blackburn, who was a colleague test pilot for the North American company working with George Welsh who wrote his memoirs last year. He's recounted all of this and made it absolutely clear that in his view, the P-86 achieved Mach 1 a few days before Chuck Yeager did it in the XS-1 and this Brit Beamont did it May 1948, so an interesting story."
Yes sir, truth is far more interesting than fiction...
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Glasses
25 Aug 1945? Did he crash land them all? :D
lol, yup should have been 1944 obviously. (fat fingers)
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Originally posted by Squire
My post as well, has nothing to do with slamming Yeager or his accomplishments as an airmen, which are many.
However,
"Yeager flew more than the P51D in that war. That just happened to be his favorite. He shot down others with other planes, but the 51D was the one he thought best. I believe I'll take the word of someone who was actually there with their life on the line."
Im sorry but you have that wrong, he was posted to England in 1944 and flew P-51s for his entire time as a combat pilot with the 357th FG. All of his P-51s he named "Glamouras Glennis", of which there were eventually three. He was just a Lieutenant in the 8th Air Force flying fighters, he was not some world expert on all the combat planes in that war, allied or axis, that wasn't his job.
I know for a fact he flew more than the 51D. At the very least he flew one other. I recall an excerpt from one of his stories where he was very concerned about a pilot who was going down. Turned out to be a fuel mixture problem and the pilot was able to stay aloft. Yeager jokingly stated his concern was more for the plane that the guy was flying than it was for the pilot. That was because the plane was a 51D and the pilot flying it was rotating out and Yeager was supposed to recieve the aircraft after he left.
More than likely WideWing would have a more complete answer on this.
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In Yeager's defense he did spend some time at Wright field after the war and flew a variety of aircraft including a number of captured Axis fighters. With regard to his 5 kill sortie it was against III/JG26's Bf109's (probably G-14s) and they did suffer the losses to support his claims according to Donald Caldwell.
I believe Butch O'hare would be the first American to have downed 5 in sortie (he did it at Coral Sea in 1942 flying an F4F).
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WideWing,
I’ve read your post and the post you published online regarding who was first to break the sound barrier. I’ve thought for a couple of days on how to respond. You’ve obviously put in a lot of work on this and I can appreciate that. It certainly seems you might be correct in believing Welch was the first to do it. That aside, Yeager remains the Official holder of the record and recognized as such by the world. If what you allege is true, I wish you the very best in getting this record straightened out, though I fear you have an uphill battle on your hands. I may have heroes, but the greatest among them is the concept of truth.
Who are you exactly? I’d like to read some of your articles in Flight Journal. Are you Jordan of Jordan Press?
Best regards,
ChopSaw
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
I know for a fact he flew more than the 51D. At the very least he flew one other. I recall an excerpt from one of his stories where he was very concerned about a pilot who was going down. Turned out to be a fuel mixture problem and the pilot was able to stay aloft. Yeager jokingly stated his concern was more for the plane the guy was flying than it was for the pilot. That was because the plane was a 51D and the pilot flying it was rotating out and Yeager was supposed to recieve the aircraft after he left.
More than likely WideWing would have a more complete answer on this.
Yeager flew P39s stateside with the 357th. When they got overseas they flew P51Bs then Ds. Yeagers first 51 was a B model. It was also Glamorous Glennis. He was downed by the 190 while flying a B model. They found part of the canopy near the crash site not too long ago if I remember right.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
I know for a fact he flew more than the 51D. At the very least he flew one other. I recall an excerpt from one of his stories where he was very concerned about a pilot who was going down. Turned out to be a fuel mixture problem and the pilot was able to stay aloft. Yeager jokingly stated his concern was more for the plane that the guy was flying than it was for the pilot. That was because the plane was a 51D and the pilot flying it was rotating out and Yeager was supposed to recieve the aircraft after he left.
More than likely WideWing would have a more complete answer on this.
From Yeager's site, chuckyeager.org:
Received his pilot wings and appointment as a flight officer in March 10, 1943, from Luke Field, Phoenix, Ariz. He was promoted from corporal to flight officer. After completing basic training at Ellington Field, Texas, he served for two months at Mather Field, Calif., and later at Moffet Field, Calif.
General Yeager's first assignment was as a P-39 pilot with the 363d Fighter Squadron in Tonopah, Nev. As a member of the 363d he trained at various bases in the United States before going overseas to England in November 1943.
March 5, 1944
While in England he flew P-51s in combat against the Germans, shooting down one ME-109 and an HE-111K before being shot down on his eighth combat mission over German-occupied France. He evaded capture when elements of the French Maquis helped him to make his way across the Pyrenees to neutral Spain.
SPRING, 1944
Yeager remained in Spain until the summer of 1944 when he was released to the British at Gibraltar and returned to England. Although army policy prohibited his return to combat flight, Yeager personally appealed to General Dwight D. Eisenhower and was allowed to fly combat missions again.
Returned to his squadron and flew 56 more combat missions, shooting down 11 more German aircraft.
Between July and October he was promoted from Second Lieutenant to Captain.
--TOTAL---
He flew 64 combat missions in World War II.
On one occasion he shot down a German jet from a prop plane.
By war's end he had downed 13 enemy aircraft, five in a single day.
Post WWII
1945
Yeager returned to the United States in 1945 to attend the instructor pilot course and subsequently served as an instructor pilot at Perrin Field, Texas. In July 1945 he went to Wright Field, Ohio, and participated in various test projects including the P-80 "Shooting Star" and the P-84 Thunderjet. He also evaluated all of the German and Japanese fighter aircraft brought back to the United States after the war. This assignment led to his subsequent selection as pilot of the nation's first research rocket aircraft, the Bell X-1.
1946
In January 1946 General Yeager attended the test Pilot School at Wright Field, Ohio.
1947--BREAKING THE SOUND BARRIER
Yeager continued to serve the newly constituted United States Air Force as a flight instructor and test pilot.
August 1947 was sent to Muroc Air Base, Calif., as the project officer on the Bell XS-1.
On Oct. 14, 1947, he flew the XS-1 past the sound barrier, becoming the world's first supersonic pilot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
WideWing,
I’ve read your post and the post you published online regarding who was first to break the sound barrier. I’ve thought for a couple of days on how to respond. You’ve obviously put in a lot of work on this and I can appreciate that. It certainly seems you might be correct in believing Welch was the first to do it. That aside, Yeager remains the Official holder of the record and recognized as such by the world. If what you allege is true, I wish you the very best in getting this record straightened out, though I fear you have an uphill battle on your hands. I may have heroes, but the greatest among them is the concept of truth.
Who are you exactly? I’d like to read some of your articles in Flight Journal. Are you Jordan of Jordan Press?
Best regards,
ChopSaw
Well, I'm a realist... I do not see the USAF or NASA, for that matter, changing their tune unless one event happens. That event would be Chuck Yeager admitting that Welch was first or just conceding that Welch might have been first. Will that occur? I doubt it very much. All anyone can do is educate the population as to what really happened.
I urge anyone with an interest in this topic to visit their library and get them to find a copy of Al Blackburn's Aces Wild: The Race for Mach 1. ISBN 0-8420-2732-2, published by Scholarly Resources Inc. Al's book covers much more than a 3,000 word article can come close to. It's available from Amazon and most online booksellers.
I checked with Flight Journal and few old issues are available. However, at least one has been re-printed on findarticles.com. This article is focused on the Lockheed XP-90/XF-90, but does mention Welch and the XP-86. You can find it here. (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200108/ai_n8957347) I wrote the article, Bodie supplied the photos and editing.
I own Jordan Publishing, but this is simply a vehicle for obtaining a serial copyright for my own web work.
One last item. A reviewer of Blackie's book, named Pierre Redmond, wrote this:
"My father-in-law is Larry Greene. He appears several times in Blackburn's book. Larry was North American's chief aerodynamicist, in charge of the F-86's groundbreaking design, particularly the "swept wing" design. He was with North American for about 20 years, rising to Vice President before leaving shortly after the Rockwell merger.
I don't know much about aviation, but I do know this man. I have known him since 1981, and I believe him. Larry says the F-86 with Welch in the cockpit went Mach 1 before Yeager and the X-1. He may not have been in the cockpit, but when I recently read the paragraph to him where Welch has the conversation with him and "Stormy", where Welch asks about putting the Sabre into a dive from 35,000 feet, Larry piped up "I told him to do it!".
Not being an aviation buff myself, in the past I would sometimes confuse Larry's work with the Bell X-1 project. After all, he had worked on early supersonic aircraft, and the X-1 was all I had learned about in school and at the movies. My wife and I actually rented "The Right Stuff" once when he and Terry were visiting. As we watched the movie, he grew noticeably grumpy and irritated at it. I didn't understand why. I thought he would like to see the events surrounding his career glamorized on screen.
This was years ago, and when I pressed him a bit, he muttered something like "we were ready to go supersonic before them, but the politicians held us back". I didn't get the "we vs. them" reference and I wrote it off to old age grumpiness. Later, on other occassions, he would make similar comments if the subject ever came up, sometimes venturing a little further and basically saying "we beat them". I never "got it" until I read Blackburn's book. Unfortunately, Larry is now of an advanced age which makes detailed discussion impossible.
Larry is from a generation that knew how to keep a secret. Even 20 or 30 years after the events, I feel he was honoring his word not to discuss the Sabre's early test flights. In retrospect I can see it bubbling up. I can now understand his irritation at all the glory accorded Yeager and the Bell X-1 team. Finally, now, in his waning years, when presented with the words in publication, he is willing to acknowledge the truth. He actually seems relieved to be able to acknowledge it.
The publication of Blackburn's book may cause aviation historians to long debate who went Mach 1 first, and others may ask "who cares". I am neither a historian nor an aviation expert, but I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. If Larry Greene tells me the Sabre went Mach 1 on those early test flights, then that's good enough for me and it's what my boys will learn."
My regards,
Widewing
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With regard to his 5 kill sortie it was against III/JG26's Bf109's (probably G-14s) and they did suffer the losses to support his claims according to Donald Caldwell.
If you are referring to this:
As for which unit those 5 lost 190s were attached to I don't think its been positively indentified.
The that was in referrence to Blumer's 5 190 claims. Some sources put this as happening on the 28th rather then the 25th Aug '44. Some say these 190s were attached to JG 6 etc...
FYI,
I have JG26s casualty list in excel (source Caldwell).
III./JG 26 suffered the following pilot casulties on 12 Oct. '44
10/12/44 - Bühring, Hans-Th. - Ofhr. - KIA - 12th Staffel - Bremervörde - P-51
10/12/44 - Grimm, Horst - Ogfr. - KIA - 9th Staffel - Bremervörde-Hipstedt - P-51
10/12/44 - Schild, Heinrich - Oblt. - WIA - 12th Staffel - E of Bremervörde - P-51
10/12/44 - Tepperis, Walter - Uffz. - WIFA - 11th Staffel - Merfelder Bruch a/f - engine failure
For JG26 in total they suffered 12 casualties on 12 Oct '44. 8 of those to P-51s.
The list above may not be complete, or include uninjured pilots who bailed, or ditched, or returned with damaged aircraft etc... Only posted as an 'fyi'...
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"I know for a fact he flew more than the 51D"
If you want to count the P-51B as "different", then fine.
He only flew Merlin Mustangs in action in WW2, and gained no kills on any other type, or saw action, in any other type than the P-51B/D.
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Originally posted by Squire
"I know for a fact he flew more than the 51D"
If you want to count the P-51B as "different", then fine.
He only flew Merlin Mustangs in action in WW2, and gained no kills on any other type, or saw action, in any other type than the P-51B/D.
Well I do think the B is different from the D. I think it's a whole lot different.
Even if you don't want to accept that, he flew them against other aircraft that were trying to kill him. That had to have given him some impression of the relative performances. That was just during combat. Out of combat he had all those test planes he flew captured from the enemy.
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By the time Yeager was making his kills he was mostly fighting 16 and 17 year old hitler youths that had no more than 40 hours of total flying time, hardly the experten that were flying in 43 and below.
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The same can be said of the German aces in the early part of the war on the Eastern Front.
ack-ack
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Yup but the likes of Hartmann started flying in '42 :D hardly the novices of 41 .
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Originally posted by Glasses
Yup but the likes of Hartmann started flying in '42 :D hardly the novices of 41 .
Hartmann claimed only 1 kill in '42 (Nov) and didn't score another until until the end of Jan '43...
As of 3 Jan '44 Hartman was credited with 159 kills.
The other 200 or so (193) were credited from '44 to 9 May '45.
The LW in the east never enjoyed the numerical advantage that the Western Allies ultimately had. Look at LW losses in the opening phases of Unternehmen Barbarossa.
A couple of quick links to articles by Christer Bergström:
The November 1944 battles between the Luftwaffe and the US Air Force (http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/nov44.htm)
and
The effect of Allied numerical superiority in the air over Normandy in 1944 (http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/normandy.htm)
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Whut Whut Whut PWND!!!! :lol
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It makes sense that pilots aren't going to get as many kills if their side out-numbers the enemy. Being out-numbered means you get a "target rich" environment. :)
Look at Marsielle - fighting in the desert where the LW was out-numbered by 3:1 but flying superior aircaft. Probably the best situation for a highly skilled pilot to make a big score.
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Yeah well it doesn't help much when you're out numbered 10 to 1 :-D
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Marseille's Claims:
Battle of Britain
# Date Time Claim Local Obs
1. 20.08.40 -- Spitfire
2. 02.09.40 -- Spitfire
3. 11.09.40 17:05 Spitfire
4. 15.09.40 -- Hurricane I
5. 18.09.40 10:40 Spitfire
6. 27.09.40 -- Hurricane I
7. 28.09.40 -- Spitfire
North Africa
8. 23.04.41 12:50 Hurricane über Tobruk
9. 28.04.41 09:25 Blenheim nordl. Tobruk
10. 01.05.41 09:15 Hurricane I 18 km. S. Tobruk 1
11. 01.05.41 09:25 Hurricane I 5 km. S.E. Tobruk 2 in 10 min
12. 17.06.41 17:15 Hurricane N.E. Gambut 1
13. 17.06.41 18:45 Hurricane 15-20 km. S.E. Sidi Omar 2 in 30 min
14. 28.08.41 18:00 Hurricane I 3 km. N.W. Sidi Barrani 01.07.41 - promoted to Leutnant
15. 09.09.41 17:12 Hurricane I S.E. Bardia 1
16. 09.09.41 17:18 Hurricane I S.E. Bardia 2 in 6 min
17. 13.09.41 17:25 Hurricane I südl. Bardia
18. 14.09.41 17:46 Hurricane I südl. El Sofafi
19. 24.09.41 13:30 Martin 167 Gambut 1
20. 24.09.41 16:45 Hurricane I Buq Buq 2
21. 24.09.41 16:47 Hurricane I Buq Buq 3
22. 24.09.41 16:51 Hurricane I Buq Buq 4
23. 24.09.41 17:00 Hurricane I Buq Buq 5 of day (4 in 15 min)
24. 12.10.41 08:12 Curtiss P-40 Bir Sheferzan 1
25. 12.10.41 08:15 Curtiss P-40 Bir Sheferzan 2 in 3 min
26. 05.12.41 15:25 Hurricane - 01.12.41 - Deutsche Kreuz
27. 06.12.41 12:10 Hurricane S.S.E. El Adem 1
28. 06.12.41 12:25 Hurricane S. El Adem 2 in 15 min
29. 07.12.41 09:30 Hurricane 20 km. W. Sidi Omar
30. 08.12.41 08:15 Curtiss P-40 20-25 km. S.E. El Adem
31. 10.12.41 08:50 Curtiss P-40 S.E. El Adem
32. 11.12.41 09:30 Curtiss P-40 S.E. Tmimi
33. 13.12.41 16:00 Curtiss P-40 N.E. Martuba 1
34. 13.12.41 16:10 Curtiss P-40 5 km. N.E Tmimi 2 in 10 min
35. 17.12.41 11:10 Curtiss P-40 W.N.W. Martuba 1
36. 17.12.41 11:28 Curtiss P-40 südl. Bucht von Gazala 2 in 18 min
37. 08.02.42 08:22 Curtiss P-40 E.N.E. Martuba 1
38. 08.02.42 08:25 Curtiss P-40 20 km. N. Martuba 2 in 3 min
39. 08.02.42 14:20 Curtiss P-40 N.W. Bomba-Bucht 3
40. 08.02.42 14:30 Curtiss P-40 N.E. Bomba-Bucht 4 of day (2 in 10 min)
41. 12.02.42 13:30 Curtiss P-40 10 km. N.W. Tobruk 1
42. 12.02.42 13:32 Curtiss P-40 20 km. N.W. Tobruk 2
43. 12.02.42 13:33 Curtiss P-40 23 km. N.W. Tobruk 3
44. 12.02.42 13:36 Curtiss P-40 35 km. W.N.W. Tobruk 4 in 6 min
45. 13.02.42 09:20 Hurricane II 20 km. S.E. Tobruk 1
46. 13.02.42 09:25 Hurricane II 23 km. E.S.E. Tobruk 2 in 5 min
47. 15.02.42 13:00 Curtiss P-40 3 km. W.S.W. Gambut 1
48. 15.02.42 13:03 Curtiss P-40 5 km. S.W. Gambut 2 in 3 min
49. 21.02.42 12:10 Curtiss P-40 10 km. W. Fort Acroma 1
50. 21.02.42 12:18 Curtiss P-40 20 km. N.E. Fort Acroma 2 in 8 min
51. 27.02.42 12:00 Curtiss P-40 10 km. E.N.E. Ain-el-Gazala 1 (22.02.42 - Ritterkreuz)
52. 27.02.42 12:12 Curtiss P-40 10 km. E.N.E. Fort Acroma 2 in 12 min
53. 25.04.42 10:06 Curtiss P-46 2 km. N. Ain-el-Gazala 1
54. 25.04.42 10:08 Curtiss P-46 10 km. N. Ain-el-Gazala 2 in 2 min
55. 10.05.42 09:13 Hurricane 25 km. S.E. Martuba 1 (01.05.42 - Oberleutnant)
56. 10.05.42 09:15 Hurricane 25 km. S.E. Martuba 2 in 2 min
57. 13.05.42 10:10 Curtiss P-40 16 km. S.E. Ain-el-Gazala 1
58. 13.05.42 10:15 Curtiss P-40 14 km. E.S.E. Gazala--Bucht 2 in 5 min
59. 16.05.42 18:05 Curtiss P-40 20 k. E. Ain-el-Gazala 1
60. 16.05.42 18:15 Curtiss P-46 3 km. E. Fort Acroma 2 in 10 min
61. 19.05.42 07:20 Kittyhawk 8 km. S.W. Fort Acroma 1
62. 19.05.42 07:30 Kittyhawk 5 km. S. Fort Acroma 2 in 10 min
63. 23.05.42 11:05 Boston III 3 km. S.E. Hafen Tobruk 1
64. 23.05.42 11:06 Boston III 4 km. S.E. Hafen Tobruk 2 in 1 min
65. 30.05.42 06:05 Kittyhawk 1 km. N.W. El Adem
66. 31.05.42 07:26 Curtiss P-40 5 km. W. Bir-el-Harmat 1
67. 31.05.42 07:28 Curtiss P-40 8 km. W. Bir-el-Harmat 2
68. 31.05.42 07:34 Curtiss P-40 10 km. S.W. Fort Acroma 3 in 8 min
69. 01.06.42 19:15 Curtiss P-40 20 km. E.N.E. El-Cheimar
70. 03.06.42 12:22 Curtiss P-40 3 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 1
71. 03.06.42 12:25 Curtiss P-40 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 2
72. 03.06.42 12:27 Curtiss P-40 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 3
73. 03.06.42 12:28 Curtiss P-40 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 4
74. 03.06.42 12:29 Curtiss P-40 10 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 5
75. 03.06.42 12:33 Curtiss P-40 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 6 in 11 min
76. 07.06.42 16:10 Curtiss P-40 S.W. El Adem 1 (06.06.42 - Eichenlaub)
77. 07.06.42 16:13 Curtiss P-40 10 km. N.E. El Adem 2 in 3 min
78. 10.06.42 07:35 Curtiss P-40 5 km. N.W. Mteifel Chebir 1 (08.06.42 - Staffelkapitän 3/JG27)
79. 10.06.42 07:41 Curtiss P-40 6 km. N.E. Mteifel Chebir 2
80. 10.06.42 07:45 Curtiss P-40 6 km. E. Mteifel Chebir 3
81. 10.06.42 07:50 Curtiss P-40 6 km. E.N.E. Mteifel Chebir 4 in 15 min
82. 11.06.42 16:25 Curtiss P-40 S.W. El Adem 1
83. 11.06.42 16:25 Hurricane II 18 km. N.W. El Adem 2 in 1 min
84. 13.06.42 18:10 Curtiss P-40 5 km. W. El Adem 1
85. 13.06.42 18:11 Curtiss P-40 3 km. N.E. El Adem 2
86. 13.06.42 18:14 Curtiss P-40 2 km. N.N.E. El Adem 3
87. 13.06.42 18:15 Hurricane II 3 km. E.N.E. El Adem 4 in 5 min
88. 15.06.42 18:01 Curtiss P-40 6 km. N.W. El Adem 1
89. 15.06.42 18:02 Curtiss P-40 4 km. N.N.W. El Adem 2
90. 15.06.42 18:04 Curtiss P-40 8 km. N.E. El Adem 3
91. 15.06.42 18:06 Curtiss P-40 3 km. N.N.E. El Adem 4 in 5 min
92. 16.06.42 18:02 Hurricane 17 km. S.W. El Adem 1
93. 16.06.42 18:10 Curtiss P-40 5 km. E. El Adem 2
94. 16.06.42 18:11 Curtiss P-40 5 km. N.N.E. El Adem 3
95. 16.06.42 18:13 Curtiss P-40 10 km. N. El Adem 4 in 11 min
96. 17.06.42 12:02 Curtiss P-40 5 km. W. Gambut 1
97. 17.06.42 12:03 Curtiss P-40 3 km. W. Gambut 2
98. 17.06.42 12:05 Curtiss P-40 4 km. S.W. Gambut 3
99. 17.06.42 12:08 Hurricane II 6 km. S.W. Gambut 4
100. 17.06.42 12:09 Hurricane II 2 km. S. Gambut 5
101. 17.06.42 12:12 Spitfire V S.E. Sidi Omar 6 in 10 min (18.06.42 - Schwerter)
102. 31.08.42 10:03 Hurricane 25 km. S.S.E. El-Alamein 1 (06.08.42 - Medalha Italiana)
103. 31.08.42 10:04 Hurricane 26 km. S.S.E. El-Alamein 2 in 1 min
104. 31.08.42 18:25 Spitfire V 15 km. östw. Alam el Halfa 3rd of the day
105. 01.09.42 08:26 Curtiss P-40 18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 1
106. 01.09.42 08:28 Curtiss P-40 20 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 2
107. 01.09.42 08:35 Curtiss P-40 18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 3
108. 01.09.42 08.39 Spitfire V 18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 4 in 13 min
109. 01.09.42 10:55 Curtiss P-40 20 km. S. Alam-el-Halfa 5
110. 01.09.42 10:56 Curtiss P-40 15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 6
111. 01.09.42 10:58 Curtiss P-40 10 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 7
112. 01.09.42 10:59 Curtiss P-40 15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 8
113. 01.09.42 11:01 Curtiss P-40 7 km. E.S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 9
114. 01.09.42 11:02 Curtiss P-40 12 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 10
115. 01.09.42 11:03 Curtiss P-40 20 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11
116. 01.09.42 11:05 Curtiss P-40 23 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 12 (8 in 10 min)
117. 01.09.42 17:47 Curtiss P-40 7 km. S. El-Imayid 13
118. 01.09.42 17:48 Curtiss P-40 8 km. S. El-Imayid 14
119. 01.09.42 17:49 Curtiss P-40 6 km. S.E. El-Imayid 15
120. 01.09.42 17:50 Curtiss P-40 9 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 16
121. 01.09.42 17:53 Curtiss P-40 7 km. S.S.W. El-Imayid 17th of day (5 in 6 min)[/i]
122. 02.09.42 09:16 Curtiss P-40 25 km. S.E. El-Imayid 1
123. 02.09.42 09:18 Curtiss P-40 30 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 2
124. 02.09.42 09:24 Spitfire V 10 km. S. El-Imayid 3 in 8 min
125. 02.09.42 15:18 Curtiss P-46 20 km. S.E. El-Alamein 1
126. 02.09.42 15:21 Curtiss P-46 18 km. S.E. El-Alamein 2 in 3 min
127. 03.09.42 07:20 Curtiss P-46 25 km. S.W. El-Hammam 1 (03.09.42 - Brillanten)
128. 03.09.42 07:23 Spitfire V 27 km. S.W. El-Hammam 2
129. 03.09.42 07:28 Spitfire V 30 km. S.W. El-Hammam 3 in 8 min
130. 03.09.42 15:08 Curtiss P-40 über El-Imayid 1
131. 03.09.42 15:10 Spitfire V 2 km. S.W. El-Imayid 2
132. 03.09.42 15:42 Curtiss P-46 40 km. S.S.E. El-Alamain 3 in 34 min
133. 05.09.42 10:48 Spitfire V 13 km. S.E. El-Alamein 1
134. 05.09.42 10:49 Spitfire V S.E. El-Alamein 2
135. 05.09.42 10:51 Spitfire V S.S.E. El-Imayid 3
136. 05.09.42 11:00 Curtiss P-46 S.S.E. El-Imayid 4 in 12 min
137. 06.09.42 17:03 Curtiss P-46 S.E. El-Alamein 1
138. 06.09.42 17:14 Curtiss P-46 S.S.W. El-Alamein 2
139. 06.09.42 17:16 Curtiss P-46 S.S.W. El-Alamein 3
140. 06.09.42 17:20 Spitfire V S.S.W. El-Alamein 4 in 17 min
141. 07.09.42 17:43 Curtiss P-46 S.E. El-Alamein 1
142. 07.09.42 17:45 Curtiss P-46 10 km. S.W. El-Hammam 2 in 2 min
143. 11.09.42 07:40 Curtiss P-46 15 km. S.E. El-Alamein 1
144. 11.09.42 07:42 Curtiss P-46 5 km. W.S.W. El-Imayid 2 in 2 min
145. 15.09.42 16:51 Curtiss P-40 25 km. S.W. El-Alamein 1
146. 15.09.42 16:53 Curtiss P-40 28 km. S.W. El-Alamein 2
147. 15.09.42 16:54 Curtiss P-46 27 km. S.W. El-Alamein 3
148. 15.09.42 16:57 Curtiss P-46 26 km. S.W. El-Alamein 4
149. 15.09.42 16:59 Curtiss P-40 20 km. S.W. El-Alamein 5
150. 15.09.42 17:01 Curtiss P-40 18 km. S.W. El-Alamein 6
151. 15.09.42 17:02 Curtiss P-40 19 km. S.W. El-Alamein 7 in 11 min
152. 26.09.42 09:10 Curtiss P-40 12 km. S.W. El-Alamein 1 (16.09.42 - Hauptmann)
153. 26.09.42 09:13 Spitfire V 14 km. S.W. El-Alamein 2
154. 26.09.42 09:15 Spitfire 14 km. S.W. El-Alamein 3
155. 26.09.42 09:16 Spitfire 15 km. S.W. El-Alamein 4 in 6 min
156. 26.09.42 16:56 Spitfire S.W. El-Imayid 5
157. 26.09.42 16:59 Spitfire 10 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 6
158. 26.09.42 17:10 Spitfire 10 km. S. El-Hammam 7 of day (3 in 14 min)
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Originally posted by Glasses
Yeah well it doesn't help much when you're out numbered 10 to 1 :-D
Die Amerikaner kamen immer in die Masse.
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Hehe, Marseilles sure knew how to set up a shot. Nail them dead on at no range.
A little bird told me that Rall is considered to have been the crack deflection shooter.
(The little bird being Willy Göbel, the historian of the Fliegergemeinshaft and a former Wingco who had flown with Rall - F104's I belive)
Rall considers Marseille to have been the best pilot and shot.
Still tough to beat "Screwball" Beurling though, - what he could do with a few bullets was amazing.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Marseille's Claims:
That is the longest post I've ever seen.
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Originally posted by Glasses
hardly the experten that were flying in 43 and below.
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?
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"Well I do think the B is different from the D. I think it's a whole lot different."
Well, you would be the only one here who thinks that, and your just back peddaling from your claim that he had all this combat experience in WW2 in all these different types, when he just flew P-51s in action, and only in NW Europe.
There were many more US pilots who had experience from 1942-45 with P-40s, P-38s, P-47s and P-51s, and Spitfires and Hurricanes (Eagle squadrons) who were much more well versed in comparing the various types involved, and who flew in multiple Theaters of War as well.
Your taking Yeagers career as a test pilot and projecting it back on to his WW2 career, and making him out to be something he was not, at the time.
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Originally posted by Toad
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?
They got picked while trying to Kill the waves of B-17s and B-24s and B-25s and B-26s and Lancasters and P-47s and P-51s and P-38s and Spitfires and Mosquitoes and......
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Originally posted by Toad
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?
they were killed in combat for the most part. the Germans flew their pilots until they became statistics. unlike the Americans which kept their pilots in combat for a limited number of missions then rotated them home to train the next wave.
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they were killed in combat for the most part. the Germans flew their pilots until they became statistics.
They weren't all killed, many survived.
No doubt many LW veteran pilots were lost over the course of the war but the decline of the LW was not due to the loss of these LW 'super-aces'. As the LW was forced to expand it was unable to train replacement pilots to same level as those early war veterans. The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW. Not only did allied numerical superiority grow as the war progressed, the quality of allied pilots and equipment (especially in the west) increased.
Also, its a myth that LW pilots flew endlessly until the war ended or they were killed. The LW had no rotation system like the Ami's but many a pilot rotated out from front line service, many were offered or ordered to discontinue flying but chose to keep in the fight etc...
When LW pilots, like Hartmann, talk about 'either the white cross, or the Iron Cross' they are referring to the obligation and duty they felt to stay in the fight defending their homeland and families. They were not chained to their Bf 109s and Fw 190s.
Pilots like Wick, Mölders, Gollob, Nowotny, Rudel and even Galland were ordered not to fly combat missions. They did so out of their sense of duty.
Hartmann was sent on furlough in May '43 after it was determined that he was becoming burnt out. Schuck went on furlough four times between April '42 - Feb '45.
Many Allied pilots continued to fly when they didn't need to as well. Yeager, for instance.
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So a lot of the superhuman experts were killed by pilots without any skill and about 200 flight hours?
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personally, i always thought that another factor in the demise of the LW is that, with the falling skill level within the ranks due to the aces getting shot down, that Goering was assigning squadrons poorly, because he was used to the higher skill levels during the pre war and BoB years, where his elite pilots performed far better than in the latter days
so being used to having so and so no. of pilots doing this... ...he was assigning to few of his pilots to certain tasks, and all the time the problem was getting worse due to the experience level
i dunno, just another theory
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Originally posted by Squire
"Well I do think the B is different from the D. I think it's a whole lot different."
Well, you would be the only one here who thinks that, and your just back peddaling from your claim that he had all this combat experience in WW2 in all these different types, when he just flew P-51s in action, and only in NW Europe.
There were many more US pilots who had experience from 1942-45 with P-40s, P-38s, P-47s and P-51s, and Spitfires and Hurricanes (Eagle squadrons) who were much more well versed in comparing the various types involved, and who flew in multiple Theaters of War as well.
Your taking Yeagers career as a test pilot and projecting it back on to his WW2 career, and making him out to be something he was not, at the time.
Okay. You're right. I was wrong. WideWings post of 3/10/06 08:36 PM made that clear. Yeager did not fly "other planes" in WWII. The wording of my statement made it sound as if Yeager had flown a wide variety of planes in combat during WWII. I was under the mistaken impression that he had when in fact I was only sure that he had flown at least two different types.
I may be "the only one here who thinks so", but I still consider the P51B and the P51D to be two significantly different beasts.
Setting aside his pre-combat experience with the P-39 as training and warm up and his post combat testing of captured enemy aircraft, that still leaves his combat experiences. Flying 64 combat missions and downing 13 enemy aircraft have to have given him an idea of the relative performances of the aircraft. In addition, I will point out that pilots talk to each other. They talk a lot and compare aircraft. Both combat and post combat experience give Chuck Yeager a credible voice when it comes to making an assessment of combat aircraft of the time.
Even proponents of the P38 admitted the P51 was better at air superiority, though they correctly note the P38 was a better multi role aircraft. I don't know how the P47 crowd feels, but I have suspicions.
There are indeed other pilots of the time with, I'm sure, different thoughts regarding the superiority of one design or the other. It would be somewhat shocking if their opinions were unanimous on the subject. Just as shocking as it would be for the same to happen in AH. I simply state Yeager's voice has validity. He loved the P51D and felt it outperformed the German rides. Yes, before some take this as a clarion call to defend their aircraft, I'm fully aware there are many here who feel aircraft other than the P51D were superior. I am also aware there were/are other experts who feel the P51D was not the most wonderful plane in combat during WWII. I'm not going to argue the issue. As stated in the post which started this thread I don't have the credentials to do so and I am aware that there are a good many experts posting to this bulletin board.
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Ohhh, from Bruno:
"They weren't all killed, many survived."
The fall of the LW is largely due to the fact that they screwed up in pilot training. (Of course we see or saw people on the BB that haven't found out that the LW fell at all). More factors also play a part.
Some of the top guns survived, some were wounded (Galland, Steinhoff, (Rall)) Some unscathed (Hartmann, Barkhorn etc), but many were dead, some in action or by accidents (Marseille, Nowotny, Mölders etc), - anyway, for whatever cause, the LW had no bulk of well trained pilots compareable to just the RAF for instance at the end of the war, while promoting the finest and best trained airforce in the world a few years earlier.
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Then this:
"As the LW was forced to expand it was unable to train replacement pilots to same level as those early war veterans. The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots"
The LW had the whole mainland and resources of EUROPE (more or less) from 1940 for som years on. So did Germany. Pilots could be trained hundreds of miles away from hostile aircraft until 1944 or so. So your first statement there Bruno, is basically wrong.
The fuel and resource problem hit in in 1944, - but amazingly the Reichs production of aircraft topped that year. Plenty of aircraft, not much fuel, newbie pilots.
The LW fell....fighting with a foe, which in terms of fue, numbersl and well trained pilots was vastly superior, while the airframe development is totally another issue.
Ohh, Izzy has gone :D
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So your first statement there Bruno, is basically wrong.
Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43. The rapid accelleration and expansion of the LW began in late'43.
Toad wrote:
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?
Glasses replied:
They got picked while trying to Kill the waves of B-17s and B-24s and B-25s and B-26s and Lancasters and P-47s and P-51s and P-38s and Spitfires and Mosquitoes and.....
and Storch wrote:
they were killed in combat for the most part. the Germans flew their pilots until they became statistics. unlike the Americans which kept their pilots in combat for a limited number of missions then rotated them home to train the next wave.
The implication in these posts are that the the LW suffered attrition of its 'super-aces' and as such couldn't compete. Thus my reply...
Nachwuchs coming into squadrons in late '43 and early '44 faced a situation that they were not entirely trained for. An Allied enemy with a clear numerical advantage, an enemy with pilots who had plenty of time on the job training. Remember the LW were ordered not to engage allied fighters and that they should focus on allied bombers exclusively. The allies also had superior equipment overall in terms of quality (not necessarily on pure bench test performance but in overall production quality). With the LW's expansion core groups of experienced pilots were split up and moved about to lead them. 1 vet with 11 nubs vs an enemy with numerical strength won't put up the same quality of fight as 4 well trained experten. Its been written that most of these Nachwuchs rarely lasted 5 combat sorties.
For example the Jagdwaffe in the west was re-stocked and replenished with new pilots and aircraft just prior to Bodenplatte. Some of these squadrons were never stronger, on paper, then at any time during the war. Yet in overall quality they were far weaker then the Jagdwaffe at say the start of BoB or the invasion of the Soviet Union.
The discussion has nothing to do with 'Izzy' and instead of worrying about him maybe you ought to try a little harder to follow along.
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Something like 2/3rds of the LW aces with 50 or more 'kills' survived the war.
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Hehe, Bruno, I think I follow. And basically I agree with MOST of what you just posted.
This one though:
"Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43"
Makes me wonder. The feel is that training and hours were at the peak in 1940 then the road went down all along, with the average LW pilot being cannonfodder in 1944. But that's just me, and you could have some good source for this 1943 data.
Then that one:
"An Allied enemy with a clear numerical advantage, an enemy with pilots who had plenty of time on the job training."
Yes, yes, but while it has a lot to do with comparison, it has nothing to do with the LW crashing in it's own training. Look at what you said here:
"The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW"
Lack of space???? How much territory does the third reich have in 1943??? They have plenty of space. Look at how many pilots were trained in "little" Britain, and then compare that to ranges of fighters of both forces as well as the size of Britain compared to German occupied soil. Man, they had all the space in the world. But they still Fu##ed up...
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Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, Bruno, I think I follow. And basically I agree with MOST of what you just posted.
This one though:
"Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43"
Makes me wonder. The feel is that training and hours were at the peak in 1940 then the road went down all along, with the average LW pilot being cannonfodder in 1944. But that's just me, and you could have some good source for this 1943 data.
Then that one:
"An Allied enemy with a clear numerical advantage, an enemy with pilots who had plenty of time on the job training."
Yes, yes, but while it has a lot to do with comparison, it has nothing to do with the LW crashing in it's own training. Look at what you said here:
"The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW"
Lack of space???? How much territory does the third reich have in 1943??? They have plenty of space. Look at how many pilots were trained in "little" Britain, and then compare that to ranges of fighters of both forces as well as the size of Britain compared to German occupied soil. Man, they had all the space in the world. But they still Fu##ed up...
angus I believe the little british pilots were trained in the United States and Canada for the most part and in reasonably secure airspace.
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Ehhh,,,nope.
In Wales and Scotland for many of them.
But Commonwealth pilots were often pre-trained or fully trained at home, and this is a good point.
And LW training sites? Bavaria very much, which is until 1944 or so very much more out of range from enemy fighters than Scotland or Wales, which were out of the 109's range, but yet got bombed in 1940.
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Lack of space????
I am not referring to 'square miles' but to the fact that as allied numbers grew they were able to roam Germany at will attacking anything that moved, from air fields to road ways, rail ways, even farm animals were not safe. I can post many examples of pilots in training being attacked or forced into the fight.
Norbert Hannig while serving as an instructor at Liegnitz (Ergänzungs-Jagdgruppe Ost) for example. Hannig's pupils were mostly new pilots and / or pilots transferring to fighters from bombers. Anyway, Hannig goes on to write that the Ergänzungsgruppen were to set-up Einsatzstaffel from existing pupils and instructors (3 Schwärme; 2 instructors, 2 pupils per schwarm).
These Einsatzstaffel would be pressed into battle against the Ami bombers:
By this time all training had been shut down at Liegnitz and the twelve Fw 190A-6s of the Einsatzstaffel prepared for take-off. When I climbed into the cockpit of my machine and checked the controls I discovered that a screw was inhibiting the full travel of the throttle. This had the effect of reducing engine output by ten per cent, which was a justifiable measure on training aircraft. It helped protect the engine and increased its number of flying hours. But in combat it could mean the difference between life or death if maximum engine power was not available.
When I asked the mechanic why this blocking screw had not been removed his answer was, 'Orders from above. They say enemy fighters aren't normally to be reckoned with in this part of the world - only those escorting bomber formations.'
The order to scramble was given. We took off in Schwärme, the Staffelkapitän leading the first with me heading the Rotte alongside him. Next came Heino Cordes and Michelka with their wingmen, followed by the two remaining Schwärme. I knew none of the trainees flying the wing positions. They were all pupils of other instructors.
It was about 11.00 hours an a beautiful summer's day; a blue sky with patches of cumulus sailing along between 1,000 and 4,000 metres., drawing little herds of shadows across the face of the peaceful sunlit landscape below. We climbed steadily northwards, the direction from which the enemy would appear. As we climbed we checked our R/T (ad lib: guess what they worked) and switched on our weapons. The 'armed' indicator lights came on and the clicking of the cannon breeches could be clearly heard through our lightweight summer helmets - all part of the routine for the old hares among us, but a new experience for the six trainees.
'To all cyclists, to all cyclists! Furniture vans now Hanni 7000, course east over the Baltice north of Rügen...
Hanni was the codeword for Höhe, or height. In other words, the enemy bombers were now north of the Baltic island of Rügen still headed eastward at an altitude of 7000 metres. The Staffelkapitän acknowledged receipt of the report with a 'Viktor, Viktor as we continued to climb to the same altitude as the bombers and attack them head-on. Each Schwarm was flying echelon right. I was in the number 3 slot to the leader. On either side of me the trainees were holding station well.
Again the controller's voice sounded in my ears: 'To all cyclists, to all cyclists! Furniture vans turning south direction Wollin, Hanni 7000... I repeat...' At a combined closing speed of something like 800km/h the distance between our two formations was now diminishing rapidly. With about 200 kilometres, or fifteen minutes to go before estimated time of contact I was keeping a sharp lookout ahead for the first sign of enemy bombers. We would have very little time to position ourselves properly for a frontal attack, and the firing pass itself would be over in a split second. We could probably be able to score a few hits, but actually to bring down a bomber would be a matter of pure luck.
[/i][/b]
Before Hannig's Schwarm got into firing position the Staffelkapitän's engine in his Fw 190A-6 began emitting black smoke and his power fell off. He lost speed and began to drop altitude. Hannig and the two trainees of the Schwarm stayed with the Staffelkapitän. Hannig goes on to describe watching the other 2 Schwärme attack the bombers above. Seeing this he leads the 2 trainees back to altitude to attack the bombers.
He describes making a firing pass through the bombers and then seeing high condensation trails above them grouped in bunches of 4. Soon these were identified as Mustangs. Hannig writes:
Within seconds I had four, then eight, then twelve Mustangs sitting on my tail. But while I was flying close above the stream they were unable to open fire on me for fear of hitting the bombers. This dubious sanctuary did not last long. The high combined closing speed which had protected us during our frontal assault of the bombers now worked against me and I soon found myself hurtling past the last squadron in formation and out into clear sky beyond.
I immediately began to yo-yo; turning steeply, diving and climbing, climbing and diving. My pursuers didn't seem to know what to make of my Russian front aerobatics. They clung on grimly behind me, but couldn't hold me in their sites long enough to get in an effective burst. I spied a welcome bank bank of cumulus ahead of me and slightly below. After three more complete circles I was directly above one of the larger clouds. I yanked the stick to my belly and trod hard on full right rudder. My machine spun down into the cloud below.
[/i][/b]
He goes on to describe how the Fw righted itself just under the clouds and how he spotted the P-51s above circling. He then 'put his nose down and got out of there'.
During this time he heard the cries the other LW pilots over the radio. Some bailing out, some on fire, some forced to ditch etc...
He then heard Heino Cordes calling for help. Cordes went to the deck and was headed south with a P-51 in pursuit with three more trailing. Hannig spotted Cordes passing under him and replied:
'Hang on, Heino,' I shouted, ' I am coming down.' I dived towards the ground as fast as my doctored throttle would allow. At a range of 300 metres I let loose a few bursts at the three P-51s bringing up the rear of the chase. When they spotted me they broke into a 360 degree turn which put them out of the running for a while.
Now I could concentrate on the Mustang sitting behind Heino. He showed no sign of abandoning the pursuit. But if I wanted to knock him off Heino's tail it would have to be a team effort. Heino would have to move out of the way the instant I said so. Otherwise the fire I directed at the P-51 might hit Heino's machine directly ahead of it as well.
I edged closer, 'Heino, get ready - left rudder now!' Heino had just put on right rudder. By reversing almost immediately he took the Ami pilot by surprise. The Mustang was still fishtailing full right rudder and suddenly there was empty sky in front of him. I had the clear field of fire I needed. At this range I could not miss. And at this altitude the result was inevitable. The Mustang's nose went done a fraction and it cartwheeled into the ground. The other three P-51s which had been closing in behind me broke off and climbed away to rejoin the formation high above.
I closed up alongside Heino. " Any idea where we are?' I asked in plain language. 'My red light's starting to flicker.' 'I haven't got a clue,' he answered, 'But the Oder should be coming up soon.'
[/i][/b]
They made their way home. Upon landing Heino's FW had 21 50 cal holes in the wings and fuselage. Hannig's FW was damaged as well.
Of the 12 FW 190A-6s sent up (6 instructors, 6 trainees) one landed with undamaged with engine trouble (Staffelkapitän's), two returned damaged (Hannig's and Heino's), five made emergency landings with their pilots wounded, dead or dying, and four pilots bailed out, two being shot while hanging in their 'chutes. One of the pilots who bailed out described what happened to him and that P-51s made several gun passed on his parachute as it laid on the ground. He was lucky to make to a potato patch and hide while this was going on.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Of the 12 FW 190A-6s sent up (6 instructors, 6 trainees) one landed with undamaged with engine trouble (Staffelkapitän's), two returned damaged (Hannig's and Heino's), five made emergency landings with their pilots wounded, dead or dying, and four pilots bailed out, two being shot while hanging in their 'chutes.
Thanks for posting this, Bruno. Obviously killshooter was off. In fairness to Angus, he was making the point that LW was able to train in almost complete safety up until the summer of 1944, when this incident evidently occurred.
- oldman
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That's not what Angus said at all. He is simple playing 'I got you now...'.
Read what I said:
No doubt many LW veteran pilots were lost over the course of the war but the decline of the LW was not due to the loss of these LW 'super-aces'. As the LW was forced to expand it was unable to train replacement pilots to same level as those early war veterans. The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW. Not only did allied numerical superiority grow as the war progressed, the quality of allied pilots and equipment (especially in the west) increased.
I said the overall decline of the LW was the result of the three things I quoted above:
1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources
3. Lack of safe air space
I then went on to say:
Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43. The rapid acceleration and expansion of the LW began in late'43.
Now where did I say that in '43 that the LW lacked space? The above quote was to point out to Angus that we are talking about late in the war. He originally started going on about 1940 such and such...
It took years to get get pilots trained. When Reschke joined the LW in the spring of '42 he didn't get to a combat squadron until June '44.
Hannig joined the LW in '41 and didn't get to JG 54 until '43.
The area of training crucial to surviving in combat, especially in the west, was the last phase in which Hannig was an instructor. But even then the training was limited.
Hannig states:
My first trio of pupils were all officers. They had previously been training-school instructors themselves and possessed a vast wealth of flying experience. But they were complete novices when it came to operational flying and combat tactics. It was my task to impart to them the knowledge I had gained at the front. If I succeeded they would hopefully not only survive, but become a welcome and useful addition to the Geshwader's front-line strength.
But even at this late, indeed final, stage of a fighter pilot's training there was still one glaring deficiency. I was unable to provide them with any sort of gunnery practice, against either air or ground targets. The complicated art of aerial marksmanship was taught by pure theory alone. There was not even an official manual to explain the complexities of deflection shooting, the amount of lead required to hit a target, and other such essentials. Instructors had to devise their own teaching aids and get fundamental principals across as best they could. Pupils would receive their first practical demonstration at the front where, if they were lucky, they would find themselves flying as wingman to a number 1 who could show them how it was done.
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I am not talking about learning to take-off and land but learning how to fight and survive. Operational training, like described in Hannig's book and quoted above, is the last phase before being sent to a squadron.
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Oh, Bruno.
The third reich covered much more space than just Germany. In comparison with the British, from 1940 onwards, the LW could easily train pilots in a safe zone, - so could the RAF. The third reich's deepest parts could NOT be reached by enemy fighters before 1944. (2 factors, - D-day and P51's). So lack of space has nothing to do with their pilot shortage before 1944.
As for the training, I would think 2 years would be a very generous number. Did Hartmann have 2 years? Did the RAF cruise on 2 years?
An old friend of mine entered training on Tiger Moths in the fall of 1940 and had his first dogfights with 109's from the Abbeville gang in September 1941....just to give an example.
But for this:
"1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources"
I wholeheartedly agree. The LW screwed up their amount of trained pilots in comparison with the production boost. And bear in mind that the numbers of pilots needed are somewhat less than the number of aircraft manufactured, for the simple reason that you can trash a plane and survive, but (except in the oddest events) not loose a pilot without the plane.
Rudorffer got shot down 17 times, Rall 8 times, Galland some few times, Mölders, 2+, Hartmann trashed some aircraft, etc, etc.
And the fuel...the shortage could keep active squadrons on the ground, - then say alone trainees...
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The third reich covered much more space than just Germany.
Angus,
Its not worth discussing anything with when you can't grasp what I said.
The third reich's deepest parts could NOT be reached by enemy fighters before 1944.
No shyte, now quote where I said other wise...
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Lol, you're right. Didn't actually spot this yet.
This is what i was looking at :
"I said the overall decline of the LW was the result of the three things I quoted above:
1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources
3. Lack of safe air space"
And number 3 is the part that is only relevant in '44/'45, so we agree.
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Originally posted by Toad
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?
Hi,
1. In the whole war, but specialy in 44/45 the number of 'Experten' was relative smal in relation to the not experten.
2. The 'Experten' often was able to avoid a fight if they was in disadvantage.
3. Most allied pilots who did meet a Expert cant talk about them.
4. Also the 'Experten' couldnt see all and got shot down by suprise, like around 80% of all fighter kills in WWII.
5. Also the 'Experten' had problems to handle 5-10 enemy fighters at once.
6. Also the 'Experten' could meet a very good allied pilot.
7. Many got lost while the absolut crazy groudattacks in Januar 45.
8. Some didnt fly any more, or at least not often(higher rank).
If you read about how Hartmann was avoiding fights without a clear advantage, or how Hermann Graf did paint his plane like P51´s and did imitate their flyingstyle to stay 'invisible', you can get a idea where the german Experten was.
Who do you think shot down all the allied planes in 1944/45, although they was much higher in numbers??
Of course the kill/loss ratio of the Luftwaffe started to go to minus in mid 1944, but do you realy think one of the new pilots, with no real combat training had a chance to shoot down a fighter??
Most JG30X pilots wasnt fighter pilots at all. They got groups from other Squads as topcover, cause they wasnt able to make a good fight, also hadycapped by the heavy armned and particular heavy amored planes they had.
Greetings,
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There ya go... :p
And number 3 is the part that is only relevant in '44/'45, so we agree.
I wasn't going admit that, I hoped you would spot it...
FYI,
'Number 3' isn't only relevant to '44/'45 as things got progressively worse.
I mentioned the rapid build up for Bodenplatte (1 Jan '45). They even had 'ferry pilots' flying combat...
And the fuel situation only got worse...
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Here's a few grains that I read somewhere.
In the worst days of fuel shortage, Pilots were asked to save fuel on return flights by gliding.
Oxen were used to pull aircraft around the ramps.
I belive it was Steinhoff's squadron (before he moved on to 262's) that could only keep 4 aircraft airborne due to fuel shortage.
(I can dig that up if you want the original text, think I know where it is)
But drinks were usually available in good quantity. When 65 sqn RAF moved to the former LW base in Bruxelles in late '44 they found huge stockpiles of Champagne and Brandy! I have a very funny story on that one ;)
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I remember that book, enjoyed it immensely.
-Blogs
Originally posted by Widewing
...Back in 1998, I had the opportunity to review the final draft manuscript of Al Blackburn's book, Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One. Al was a North American test pilot, and he worked under Welch. Al's book chronicles the events occurring at Muroc back in the summer and fall of 1947. ...