Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: dizman on March 08, 2006, 07:49:45 PM
-
Well, The P-51 and the P-47 first started out like the P-40, with a crappy rear view. Well the P-51 and P-47 were upgraded to have a teardrop canopy for superb vision. I was wondering if the P-40 got the same treatment, maybe in the last models.
-
Originally posted by dizman
Well, The P-51 and the P-47 first started out like the P-40, with a crappy rear view. Well the P-51 and P-47 were upgraded to have a teardrop canopy for superb vision. I was wondering if the P-40 got the same treatment, maybe in the last models.
The US produced the P-40 way beyond its useful life. The final attempt to keep the corpse alive was the P-40Q, which had a bubble canopy. It never went into production because, even with all the modifications, it was still grossly inferior to its contemporaries.
- oldman
-
The problem with the P-40 was lack of horsepower. Had it been equipped with a 1700HP engine, it'd be a whole different plane. The Allison, as spec'd by the U.S. military, was equipped with a single speed single stage crank driven supercharger. For the P-38, a GE turbocharger was added. Originally, the same turbocharger was spec'd for the P-39, but the USAAF had it deleted. So it hadn't a prayer above 15,000 feet. But one of the fastest prop planes in the air after the war was a P-39 with a P-38 engine. Curtiss requested both turbochargers and two stage two speed superchargers for the P-40, but to no avail.
-
P-40Q, damn ugly bird
(http://www.warbirdsite.com/P-40Q.jpg)
-
I'd hit it.
-
Of course you would, you go gaga over a slowtation :D
-
Originally posted by Rino
Of course you would, you go gaga over a slowtation :D
The ultra and encore aren't that slow. The way it looks now I could wind up in the X in <12 months. Poor poor me.
-
Sweet! Slow is in the eye of the beholder though :) I see dozens of
Cessnas every day at work..Net Jets and Citation Shares love KMMU....
lots of rich folks with fractional ownerships.
Is the 10 part of the fleet you're flying with now?
-
1 X and adding another in September.
Know a lot of X guys including an ACP and several captains at NetJets. Happy for them with their new contract and they're being properly compensated.
-
I thought I saw somewhere that some of the later model P-40s were still respectable fighters. P-40N is one I hear most about. Faster and more maneuverable with a better rate of climb than earlier models.
-
Not really. The N and Q models didn't show up til the end of the war, and they were still inferior to the P51s, P47s, F4us, etc that had already been fighting for years.
The aircraft was hurt from the start, like the P39. It was just behind the curve as the war started, and only fell behind from there. It got improvements, but not enough and not fast enough to be competitive.
-
I believe the N modle had an extended tail section for more stability and maybe a larger engine. I dont know if its true or not but i heard that P40s are supposed to handle much differantly than in the game. I also read that someone could always tell a P40 pilot from the others because of the over developed calf muscle on, i believe the right leg because the P40 always pulled to the left in a dive, and had to be counter acted by the rudder. I also heard that a P40 Pilot said that there wasnt much that could keep up with a P40 in a dive and diving was his last resort to getting away from somebody on his six. I found a Problem with the P40B in the game, i was reading the history of the flying Tigers and it said that the P40Bs never had the optical sight on it and they had to use the Iron sights on the exterior of the plane, i also think the P40Bs guns should do a little bit more damage in the game, i had to pump 1000 rounds into the tail of an LA at less than 200meters to get him to crash, that seems a bit much. I noticed that on the shadow of the E modle in the game the landing gears are always down and dont retract with the gears on the plane.
~P40E best plane in the game...WOOOOOO!!!~
-
In fairness, by late-42 the P40 was relegated to ground support duty, and delivered to Allied nations for their use (except for China where it did fine against what the IJA had going for most of the war). It was cheap and relatively easy to build and rugged as hell. So comparing it to a fist line air superiority fighter isn't quite fair.
The Military Channel has an episode running this month on the P40. While watching it you learn that (a) it more or less won WW2 single-handed, (b) it had 50mm guns, and (c) by the end of the war it looked an awful lot like a P51D. WTF?
-
LOL DokGonzo
Glacier Girl you're getting your planes mixed up. Pilots of the Me109 were supposedly developing strong calf muscles because of the constant rudder input needed at all speeds.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Not really. The N and Q models didn't show up til the end of the war, and they were still inferior to the P51s, P47s, F4us, etc that had already been fighting for years.
The aircraft was hurt from the start, like the P39. It was just behind the curve as the war started, and only fell behind from there. It got improvements, but not enough and not fast enough to be competitive.
XP-40Q, 2 built... Never saw service.
P-40N: In service by May of 1943, not at the end of the war. Heavily used in SWPA, CBI and MTO theaters. Two of the three squadrons of the highest scoring fighter group in the Pacific (the 49th FG) flew P-40Ns right up until late summer of 1944.
By 1941, Curtiss had devolved into a major clusterhump of a company. There is absolutely no doubt that a vastly improved P-40 could have been in service by 1943. Curtiss simply wasn't up to it. They lost a contract to build P-47s (the P-47G) because they were way behind schedule and because their quality control was horrific. Virtually every Curtiss fighter design after the P-40 was an abject failure.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by GlacierGirl
I found a Problem with the P40B in the game, i was reading the history of the flying Tigers and it said that the P40Bs never had the optical sight on it and they had to use the Iron sights on the exterior of the plane, i also think the P40Bs guns should do a little bit more damage in the game, i had to pump 1000 rounds into the tail of an LA at less than 200meters to get him to crash, that seems a bit much. I noticed that on the shadow of the E modle in the game the landing gears are always down and dont retract with the gears on the plane.
~P40E best plane in the game...WOOOOOO!!!~
First, the Flying Tigers did not fly the P-40B. They flew the Tomahawk, specifically a hybrid aircraft designated the H81-A3. It was very similar to the P-40B, closer to a P-40B than to the Brit spec Tomahawk Mk.IIb, which was different in several important respects.
I've posted about this before and will repost my most recent comments below.
"AVG Tomahawks were NOT Tomahawk IIBs, nor P-40Bs, or even P-40Cs. They were unique in that they were built to the Chinese contract.
British serial numbers were assigned to the Chinese fighters, but the serial numbers existed on paper only as the aircraft were not yet in production. When production did get underway, the Chinese aircraft would be different than those being made on the same line for the Brits.
Curtiss assigned these Tomahawks the different factory designation H81-A3. British Tomahawk IIBs were designated H81-A2. The reason for this is that these fighters were manufactured using a mix of components from P-40B and Tomahawk IIA spares as well as newer components. In addition, the Chinese aircraft had completely different fuel systems, virtually identical to the P-40B. Speculation is that Curtiss saw an opportunity to use the stockpiled spares, which had already been paid for at lower rates.
All 100 Tomahawks were delivered without normal "Government supplied equipment". That means that they were devoid of armament, radios and gunsights. It was up to Chennault's people to locate and procure these items, which is why some Tomahawks were armed with .30 and some with .303 caliber MGs. Two or three were armed with 7.92mm guns (standard Chinese rifle caliber).
Engines were built by Allison on a seperate assembly line. Since all of Allison's production was already earmarked and bound to existing contracts, Allison used a unique method to provide the 100 engines required. Each engine was assembled using parts rejected for the main assembly line due to tolerance issues. To do this it required hand fitting of components. Essentially, these engines would be built to tighter producton tolerances than the engines coming off of the main production line. When tested on the factory dyno, these engines proved to produce substantially more horsepower than the standard engine, roughly 200 hp more on average. Erik Shilling and Dick Rossi have both confirmed that the Tomahawks, even with tired engines, were marginally faster than the P-40Es received in the Spring of 1942. Shilling's stripped down, photo-recce bird was reported as being able to edge above 370 mph TAS. Shilling filled seams with auto-body filler and sanded joints smooth. Finally, the aircraft was waxed to a high gloss. This combination of added power, lower drag and weight gave the recce Tomahawk outstanding performance for its day. Standard AVG Tomahawks, in good tune, were reported to be able to commonly edge up to 360 mph TAS.
There was a major drawback to the extra horsepower. Despite that fact that the dyno tests revealed that these engines produced as much as 220 hp more than the production line V-1710-33s, Allison didn't beef up the reduction gearbox. This leads to a fact not picked up on as significant by historians. The AVG suffered a very high rate of reduction gear failures. This is better understood when you realize that the older style reduction gear (used weaker spiral type gears) was rated for no more than 1,100 hp. With as much as 1,220 hp on tap, the reduction gearbox was over-stressed and frequently stripped gears. Later models, with 1,200 hp engines were fitted with a much stronger spur gear design that could handle up to 1,600 hp. This is the major reason that the nose is shorter from the P-40D onward.
Our P-40B more closely represents the AVG fighter than it does a Tomahawk IIB. However, there are serious issues with its horsepower as the AH2 P-40B is at least 20 mph slower than a real P-40B, and probably 30 mph slower than the AVG's fighters. The AH2 P-40B can do no better than 332 mph at its best altitude.
Both Dan Ford and I have researched this to death. With help from Shilling and Rossi, we were able to track down the facts. Dan and I are in agreement as to the fact that the AVG flew unique aircraft, different from both RAF and USAAF versions of the H81.
By the way, Britain named the H81 series Tomahawks and the H87 series were named Kittyhawks. US P-40s, beginning with the P-40E were called Warhawks, but this name was almost never used by American pilots and ground crews, who would generally just call them P-40s."
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Krusty
It got improvements, but not enough and not fast enough to be competitive.
Kind of funny that for the USAAF in the PTO there were more P-40 aces than P-47 and P-51 aces. And of those aces, a great deal of them had already made ace in the P-40 before transitioning to the Jug or Mustang. Not bad for a plane that wasn't "competitive".
ack-ack
-
Hi Widewing,
>Standard AVG Tomahawks, in good tune, were reported to be able to commonly edge up to 360 mph TAS.
Do you have any information on the power settings required for this speed? I remember reading about overboosting of the engines (which apparently was easily done since no automatic boost control was fitted), and it seems that the same article also connected the gearbox failures to excessive overboosting. No idea how credible this is, though.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
-
Ack-ack, well anything when used against defenseless bombers, transports, and fixed-gear, open-cockpit fighters that can barely fly 250mph on a good tailwind, will get good kill numbers :P
Vs the Japanese it was something suitable for use. Against any other nation's planes it was far inferior to the opposition.
-
Not all of the engagements the P-40 encountered were against those kinds of Japanese planes in the PTO. The Tuskegee airmen also did quite well in the P-40 before getting their P-51s and that was in the MTO.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,
>Standard AVG Tomahawks, in good tune, were reported to be able to commonly edge up to 360 mph TAS.
Do you have any information on the power settings required for this speed? I remember reading about overboosting of the engines (which apparently was easily done since no automatic boost control was fitted), and it seems that the same article also connected the gearbox failures to excessive overboosting. No idea how credible this is, though.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Erik Shilling told me that pilots sometimes pulled as much as 45 in/hg during emergencies and that he had seen more than one Allision "burned out" as a result of doing this for extended periods in combat.
I recall that 41 in/hg was the boost limit for takeoff, and 38.9 in/hg for five minutes above 3,600 feet.
For those guys who debated the AVG Tomahawk's rate of climb, Shilling says that with full tanks, their Tomahawks climbed at 2,400 fpm @ 35.0 in/hg and 2,800 fpm @ 41.0 in/hg.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Glacier Girl you're getting your planes mixed up. Pilots of the Me109 were supposedly developing strong calf muscles because of the constant rudder input needed at all speeds.
I learned about the P40 Pilots developing strong calf muscles due to the need of the rudder in a dive from the book "Warbird Legends" written by John N. Dibbs. Deffinatly not mixing up my planes.
Thank you WideWing for posting the information about the Flying Tigers P40s, I really appreciate it. I am a P40 maniac.
~Glacier~
-
LOL, all I was asking was wether or not it ever had a bubble canopy. Also, don't believe everything you hear on the History Channel. And also, the P-40 Tomahawk I and II can kick major arse.
-
Hi all:
All in all, p40s are one of the more representative planes of ww2 with is shark mouth. Anyone who sees it know is a ww2 plane, although doesn't know anything about planes.
Not a good or bad plane, it is simply one of the most famous planes.
Salute all, passao
-
I'm actually suprised there was alot of feedback here for the P-40, thought no one really cared about the old plane. Nice to see there are people that actually do.
-
About a month ago I saw a book by an AVG mechanic for sale, but only had the cash on hand for another book I was more interested in having.
Anyone know the AVG book I'm talking about,
does it shed light on the overbooosting topic
& is it worth buying?
-
Originally posted by dizman
I'm actually suprised there was alot of feedback here for the P-40, thought no one really cared about the old plane. Nice to see there are people that actually do.
The P-40 is one great plane, I regulary fly it
I do find the P-40B (fighter version) worse than the E version in terms of manoeuvrability. Could be me though