Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: -ammo- on October 14, 2001, 10:40:00 AM
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well, they run close with the Taliban, the Chinese, North Korea, etc...
ACLU attempts action (http://www.sacbee.com/news/news/local03_20011013.html)
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Right... defending the Constitution of the United States makes them America's worst enemy.
roadkill.
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Jerry Falwell, is that you?
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Is that what they defend? you use the word defend, I would use the word attack, and give them long enough, and the term will be oppresive.
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Ohhh good grief. Isnt the ACLU over reacting just abit. There is a need to avoid the mix of church and state but come on...
How in the hell is this mixing church and state. Oh...and does this mean the Pledge Of Alliangence will be erradicated now?
Personaly I think its rather nice to see someone standing up to the ACLU and its sniveling PC'd-ness.
xBAT
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I find it very hard to conclude that the state is creating a religion with "God Bless America". I say by removing the sign there is an establisment of religion. The religion of the non-religious. The state has no right to impose non-religion on the people :) By removing this expression of this town violates the Constitution, Big Time!!
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The school district intends to stand its ground, citing a California Supreme Court decision stating that "God Bless America" is a traditional, nonreligious, patriotic phrase.
HAHAHAHAHAH
I bet "Hail Satan, Keeper of Hell, Producer Of Evil, Forthcoming Ruler of The World: Condemn Our Enemies: Let Them Perish In Pain!" is very non religious too.
LOL
Man, "God bless America" is a secular statement? So, the god bit didn't give the supreme dudes sort of a hint?
It's as non religious as Allah'u akbar.
Yeh, I like that one.
<tries hard to stop snickering/laughing, but cannot help himself>
LOLOL man, this one is GOLD.
Oh, and technically, there's problem with this one: public schools may not favour one or several religions over others. So, because "God" is singularis, it's discriminating against those who aren't monotheistic.
Bit arrogant too: why not let God bless all countries and instill His peace into the hearts of everyone? THAT is a prayer worth making.
I'll go back to Nirfur, God Of All Things Yellow And Furry for now. He might be petty and mean, but he sure is inconsistent.
[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: StSanta ]
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When are they going after dubya? He ends all his propaganda with the same words.
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or the dollar bill...
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So, could some please tell me whose constituion the ACLU is trying to defend surely it's not ours.
Passed by Congress September 25, 1789. Ratified December 15, 1791.
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]
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I hate anal people.
Really.
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it's hilarious. there is a protestor here in SF saying we should fight racism at home before we have a war.
i was kinda stunned as they are unrelated -
i could only think she was jealous of the war because no one wanted to hear her whine about racism anymore.
i imagine many will hate the war becuase it takes attention from their agendas.
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The ACLU is actually one our best "Constitutional" friends, they've done allot more "good" than...we'll I'll refer to this as "stupid" in comparison. It's the dumb things they do that make the headlines.
Tumor
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They have not, and will not, attempt any legal action on this weak case.
Now more than ever we need the ACLU to help protect us from police state tactics and religious fanatics who want to impose the 'true faith' on everyone.
Originally posted by batdog:
Ohhh good grief. Isnt the ACLU over reacting just abit. There is a need to avoid the mix of church and state but come on...
How in the hell is this mixing church and state. Oh...and does this mean the Pledge Of Alliangence will be erradicated now?
Personaly I think its rather nice to see someone standing up to the ACLU and its sniveling PC'd-ness.
xBAT
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Originally posted by mrfish:
it's hilarious. there is a protestor here in SF saying we should fight racism at home before we have a war.
i was kinda stunned as they are unrelated -
i could only think she was jealous of the war because no one wanted to hear her whine about racism anymore.
i imagine many will hate the war becuase it takes attention from their agendas.
I imagine your views would be different if you had to deal with vicious racism personally but thats beside the point. There are some things not worth stirring and could do more hurt than harm. This case seems to fall in that category
:rolleyes:
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what does domestic racism have to do with our retalliation?
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Shire.. use caution. I happen to know that Mrfish knows more than a lil bit about racisim; and on an extemely personal level.
As for the rest, including the ACLU, just like any other time; whenever the majority gets its balls inna uproar over some dickheaded lil tribe of forigeners a noisy lil crowd of freedoms freeloaders gets together and makes ugly 'baby killer' posters and wails on and on ad-nasuem about it.
Seems to me we'd kill fewer tribes in the long run if we just rolled our sleeves up, and got the damn job done inna hurry, before the press gets into the act with "Day 117 of the Terrorist Crisis..."
My venerable ol Granpa said "It's always better to ask for forgiveness than it is to try and get permission."
And my DI usta say "Grab 'em by the balls, and their hearts and minds will follow."
Not that it has anything to do with anything... :)
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Hihihihi, just read that a lower court in the US ruled against the Freedom From Religion Foundation when they argued that "In God We Trust" was a religious statement, and therefore should not be sponsored by the state by putting it on money.
They lost, with the judge claiming that it is NOT a religious statement. Needless to say, the ruling has been appealed.
Now, in a bit more serious of a tone...ammo, ripsnort, sandman - everyone basically, what do YOU think about this? Do you believe it is possible to make a direct reference of faith in a deity and then claim that the statement is non religious?
I'd say that is possible -*if* that deity is clearly a construction of fantasy. An example: "Cthulhu: The God Of All Humans". It's clearly not a reference to some theistic belief system: rather a constructed mythos created for the entertainment/control/sense of control of humans.
Of course, I'd argue that all religions are just that, but that's beside the point.
If you're a Christian, and you say "God bless you" to me, I take this as a very positive comment: I read it as if you, by invoking your faith wish me well. "By God, I do not lie" to me would also mean that if you were to lie, it'd not only be to me, but more directly to your deity.
But, if "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase, I gather those I just mentioned aren't.
Please, help me out here :). Am confused on how the English language is used with regards to this all of a sudden.
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Thumbs down on the ACLU, those bunch of salamanders. They've been up to no good for a long time now. But I guess there has to be a standard of what's wrong in America, to know what's right. Kinda the same way you have to feel like crap to know what good health is like, and to appreciate it.
Don't try to argue with this academic bunch, because they know what's good for us. Just look at their record, and all the good they've done for America. :rolleyes:
Les
SC-Bama
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the ACLU is interested in two things:
$$$$$ and power
or is it
power and $$$$
no, no , its
$$$$ and power
nope, it could be ....
it sure as hell ain't any of my civil liberites ....
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The whole purpose of seperation of church & state was IMO to protect the people. At the time the constitution was written England had a state sanctioned, and state run church.
So that the same goverment that told them what they could & could not do could also tell them what they could or could not believe. Our founding fathers saw danger in this and took steps to deal with it.
Putting "In God we trust" on our money is NOT telling anyone what to believe, or what church or religion to believe in.
Nor is "God Bless America" imposing any religious belief on anyone.
(Goes WAY out on a limb here)
I'd go so far as to say one of the biggest problems with our legal system is that lawyers look at the wording & lanquage of the law while ignoreing its original INTENT!
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Ghosth,
It seems pretty obvious (to me) that the "God" in which "we" trust, is the God of Christians. A bit of history:
http://www.treas.gov/opc/opc0011.html (http://www.treas.gov/opc/opc0011.html)
Doesn't this seem like the "establishment", or at least "endorsement", of a PARTICULAR religion by the government? Isn't this what the framers of the Constitution wanted to avoid?
Would Christians be happy if the motto was changed to: "Buddha is Our Buddy"? ;)
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
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Originally posted by Eagler:
the ACLU is interested in two things:
$$$$$ and power
or is it
power and $$$$
no, no , its
$$$$ and power
nope, it could be ....
it sure as hell ain't any of my civil liberites ....
Right... I can't recall the last time I saw someone on television asking for money for the ACLU.
Evangelists, by comparison, are a dime a dozen.
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This is what this all sounds like to me.
Cli ck for Real Translation of this Thread (http://www.endeneu.com/funstuff/miguel/convert.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitechcreations.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fultimatebb.cgi%3Fubb%3Dget_topic%26f%3D4%26t%3D003472&filter=miguel)
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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I think we've all got bigger things to worry about than this. *points to terrorist types* THOSE people are the enemy. Let's deal with them first, then sort through whether "God Bless America" affects little Johnnie's ability to study in school.
Besides, saying the Pledge or "God Bless America" is in no way saying "you WILL become a Christian" or endorsing Christianity as the national religion. Heck, I say the Pledge, I sing along with America The Beautiful and I even sing God Bless America. Guess what? I'm not religious in the least bit; I'm agnostic. I'm definitely not endorsing Christianity, or any other religion. Now if the school (or teachers in the school) start leading prayers involving the children, then you've got a real issue.
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The ACLU is a necessary evil. Of course, those that they don't really fight for will never understand that. Many that they do fight for are grateful.
They are something of a conscience in America. That's not saying that they are always right or just... its just saying that they make you consider actions a little more deeply than you would had they not been there.
I don't like them. I understand the need for them.
AKDejaVu
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Yah, if it is not such a big deal for you, why not change it to Buddha Is Our Buddy or Allah uakhbar?
I mean, it's nothing, right?
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Yah, if it is not such a big deal for you, why not change it to Buddha Is Our Buddy or Allah uakhbar?
I mean, it's nothing, right?
lol yeah! 'i'm just mad about allah' would be my vote or maybe 'confusionism is con-fabulous'
seriously - religion is free so long as it's christian.
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Displaying God Bless America, In God We Trust, or whatever statement everywhere is just as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your doorstep to give you a free hand out.
I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, leave me alone!!!
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Displaying God Bless America, In God We Trust, or whatever statement everywhere is just as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your doorstep to give you a free hand out.
I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, leave me alone!!!
-SW
In that case, then please give me all your money, since this country was founded on Christianity, and the fact that "In God we Trust" in on every coin and dollar bill you have, then I feel it my duty to relieve you of such metal torrenting pain. :D
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majority rules fellas ... last time I checked the majority was Christian in the US.
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"Majority rules" is exactly what the Constitution and Bill of Rights is supposed to prevent.
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
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Originally posted by popeye:
"Majority rules" is exactly what the Constitution and Bill of Rights is supposed to prevent.
[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
You forgot about ammendment 99
"All preceeding rules are null and void if Eagler is in majority"
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
In that case, then please give me all your money, since this country was founded on Christianity, and the fact that "In God we Trust" in on every coin and dollar bill you have, then I feel it my duty to relieve you of such metal torrenting pain. :D
Again, no this country was not founded ON Christianity. It was founded BY Christians- well a majority of Christians.
Big difference, considering all of the In God We... and God Bless... and all that stuff you see on the coins or in our pledges was added in the past 50 years...
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Again, no this country was not founded ON Christianity. It was founded BY Christians- well a majority of Christians.
Big difference, considering all of the In God We... and God Bless... and all that stuff you see on the coins or in our pledges was added in the past 50 years...
-SW
Sick isn't it, how can we let that stand! How bout changing it to "In Nothing we trust!" or "In Me, Myself & I - I Trust!"
"Oh Universal One Bless America"
You guys crack me up...
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You can place your trust in some deity that may or may not exist...
I will place my trust in myself, everyone I know and in our Armed Forces.
-SW
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The government should endorse Christianity, and our taxes should go to support it. Also, Christian leaders should be able to decide what you can read, listen to, and what you can say. All children should be indoctrinated into Christianity.
You agree? Then I guess the ACLU isn't for you. Maybe there will be a Christian version of Iran you can move to some day.
Originally posted by SC-Bama:
Thumbs down on the ACLU, those bunch of salamanders.
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Originally posted by Montezuma:
The government should endorse Christianity, and our taxes should go to support it. Also, Christian leaders should be able to decide what you can read, listen to, and what you can say. All children should be indoctrinated into Christianity.
You agree? Then I guess the ACLU isn't for you. Maybe there will be a Christian version of Iran you can move to some day.
I hope your being sarcastic. :confused:
That's JUST what the US needs, our own version of the Taliban leading the United States. :rolleyes:
Just think of the freedom we would have under a government composed of looneys like Falwell and Robertson. :eek:
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"Also, Christian leaders should be able to decide what you can read, listen to, and what you can say."
Seems to me like the ACLU is doing a fair job in that department, thank you.
Les
SC-Bama :p
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Ya know what? I've tried to come up with a short phrase that sums up what I think about this crap but I can't. This is the kind of shyt that happens when you get a bunch of people with nothing constructive to do in a room with less than a handfull of individuals who feel they've been "wronged" because somebody hurt they're poor wittle feelings...WhaWhaWha *sniff* or they heard/saw something that offends them in some manner because they don't have the inteligence enough to realize that other people are different from them. Let me tell you something brother, If you want to paint "God bless buttpumpers" on the side of your house in dogshyt then by god go for it, and the first pantywaste, tree-huggin, ACLU wannabe, brainless-crybaby that stops to whine about it deserves to be shown what it's like to live without freedom in any way so as it sticks in they're head like that dogshyt stuck to the side of your house.
WhaWha church and state WhaWhaWha church and state WhaWhaWha blah blah.....get a real fediddlein job.
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I believe in America, Mom and Apple Pie.
...and MickyD vanilla shakes.
As to the issue of "one nation under god" or "in god we trust"... tell me; how much sweat fell off your balls the last time you uttered them? Did they harm you? They are words.. nothing more.
The real issue is?
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I believe in America, Mom and Apple Pie.
...and MickyD vanilla shakes.
As to the issue of "one nation under god" or "in god we trust"... tell me; how much sweat fell off your balls the last time you uttered them? Did they harm you? They are words.. nothing more.
The real issue is?
Words and nothing more? Than you will have no problem with making people happy and removing all those signs, I guess. After all, they are just words, and have no greater meaning for you or any other American.
As to myself, the words "God Bless America" don't bother me, but what's wrong with honoring the desires and respecting those who feel differently? The point of this was not the words themselves, but where they were posted: at an elementary school. And posting those words at an elementary school is constitutionally illegal, if you want to get picky. Some people want to get picky. So what? That's their right, and people in this nation have a responsibility to respect the beliefs of others, IMHO.
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Maybe because originally "America, Land of the Freeloaders, Home of the Timid" or "In Quakers We Trust" just didn't make the cut..
Or because the majority have decided that the words "In God We Trust" have the same import to Americans as "..Mom and Apple Pie", and as such, have become intwined as part of the American Identity.
Why would I consent to having the words of my childhood pledge to my nation expunged and removed from the public psyhe on basis of a wailing from a voicefrous minority?
The Supreme Court in essence told the ACLU "get lost" on this subject.
If you think it's hateful and offensive, and just can't stand it... well gee; too freakin bad. So Move.
:)
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Fek it, nevermind.
I don't care, I was just going to make a point.
-SW
[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Hang, may I politely request that you stuff it with both the personal and religous slander? Thank you.
I don't find it hateful and offensive. I do believe that some find it, if not hateful (which I just don't see) then offensive. So, these people aren't entitled to that? It makes perfect sense to me. I also believe that putting that message at a school amounts to a state endorsement of religion/religious statement, whichever you pick, and that is unconstitutional.
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this is about to get good :)
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Originally posted by ispar:
Hang, may I politely request that you stuff it with both the personal and religous slander? Thank you.
I don't find it hateful and offensive. I do believe that some find it, if not hateful (which I just don't see) then offensive. So, these people aren't entitled to that? It makes perfect sense to me. I also believe that putting that message at a school amounts to a state endorsement of religion/religious statement, whichever you pick, and that is unconstitutional.
LOL, in true bleeding heart fashion. You move me ispar...LOL
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NM
[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Thud ]
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Istard is doing just fine. Let him expand on all ideals.
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For those having trouble with the concept, just think of the ACLU as an "NRA for the FIRST Amendment", protecting the Constitutional rights of a minority from the whim of the majority.
;)
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Originally posted by 1776:
I say by removing the sign there is an establisment of religion. The religion of the non-religious. The state has no right to impose non-religion on the people
You are absolutely right. If you put a religious sign on your person or on your property, no one has a right to remove it.
But the school is public property and (tax-paying) public whose children attend the school may not share religious views of a person who posted the sign.
weasel: When are they going after dubya?
He can voice his religious views and bear religious signs. No problem with that - it is personal. He does not make any state decisions based on religion.
He cannot though make my children say those things or wear those signs.
Professor Fate: You cannot exercise your freedomn of religion on (partly) my property (school) or brainwash my children without my concent. I send children to school to learn math and other stuff, not get converted into one of your wacky religions. Worship of ancestors is good enough for them.
miko
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slan-der!, slan-der!, slan-der! wooooo! :D
sorry ispar, but honestly i'm still having trouble believing you are actually a quaker. it seemed to me like you suddenly took on that faith to make a point a few threads ago. i don't remember you mentioning it before...
my real and sincere apologies if i am wrong, but if i'm right it's kind of a slap to real quakers.
you might define whether you are actually a practicing quaker or just a philosophical sympathizer. the difference may be more than semantic, i don't know enough about it to say.
if it's any consolation, feel free to question whether i am really a cynical agnostic existentialist anytime you want - i may have shown a hint of optimism in a previous thread but i assure you it was a passing notion ;)