Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on August 01, 2001, 02:24:00 PM
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Amazing to think that some screwy tree hugging policy caused/contributed to the death of the four brave fire fighters. Sad when you put a stupid fish over a human being.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html)
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Isn't this excatly their agenda? To brainwash us into thinking that a human life is not any more valueable than a life of a pig, a cockroach or a dandylion.
Abolish this EPA gestapo.
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from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html)
Testifying before the committee Tuesday, USFS Fire Chief Dale Bosworth said that under standard procedure, firefighters would have used the Chewuch water to fight the fire and addressed any environmental violations or restrictions after the fire was extinguished. He said he was investigating why dispatch waited for approval before sending the helicopters.
"We get the water where we can get it and ask questions later," Bosworth said
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"At 12:08, the dispatch office ordered the helicopter," Flatten told Fox News. "However, because there are endangered species in the Chewuch River, they wanted to get permission from the district in order to dip into the river."
Looks to me like a dispatcher started thinking too much and not following procedures.
Go to the phone book and find a hotline number for endangered spicies preservation, 1800-can-we-use-water ?
Look at the time line, looks like a total cluster f__k by whoever was running that op.
So easy to blame a government agency, ain't it ?
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And the tree-huggers.
Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, there are some people who AREN'T worth a fish.
- Yoj
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Oh and Eagler, man - you gotta stop getting your news from Fox. Those guys will say anything if it looks like a good headline, facts be damned.
- Yoj
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IMO, it's partly due to goofy rules but mostly due to human error related to the goofy rules. And those goofy rules extend past the ESA. There's also the FS's expensive policy about needlessly fighting some forest fires due primarily to the influence of lumber industry interests.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Oh and Eagler, man - you gotta stop getting your news from Fox. Those guys will say anything if it looks like a good headline, facts be damned.
- Yoj
sorry you think 4 ppl losing their lives because of restrictions on water use due to a fish is not newsworthy. Imagine being burned alive ... I can't.
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i think its roadkill. it dont matter how bad of a person you are, in my opinion you are better than a salmon or trout. if it were me making the decisions i would have said get the water anyway. there is no possible way a judge is going to say that a fish is more valueable than a human life. especially the life of a fire fighter.
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pimpjoe, ya need to add a "p" in "pimpslaped"
:D
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Its a spieces thing...man is over the fish. I like to eat fish. Fish like to eat me. I eat fish but they aint ate me yet. I win... so far. Hey...do I smell like fish?
xBAT
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Batdog,
You need to change your "from" location to "depends on how much SHE drank last night"
<G,D,R> :D
Cobra
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Eagler, I defy you to find where I said the death of four people was not newsworthy. Moreso for those of us here in the area. I just said Fox was a poor choice as a news source.
And Joe, I'm sure I'm a small minority here, but to me our temporary and essentially accidental position at the top of the food chain does not make us any better or more deserving of anything than any of the other people we share Earth with. This insistance that humans are somehow separate from the rest of the planet is fearfully wrongheaded, and probably will lead to us killing ourselves of one way or another.
No, I don't think concern over endangered fish is any reason not to act to save the lives of four humans - that does not mean I won't be concerned about the fish. And not just for the sake of the fish. As the quote goes, extinction is forever, and everything alive directly affects us. There is never a way of knowing that fish won't end up being our only means of survival.
- Yoj
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go brethren g! ;)
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Originally posted by Yoj:
And Joe, I'm sure I'm a small minority here, but to me our temporary and essentially accidental position at the top of the food chain does not make us any better or more deserving of anything than any of the other people we share Earth with. This insistance that humans are somehow separate from the rest of the planet is fearfully wrongheaded, and probably will lead to us killing ourselves of one way or another.
No, I don't think concern over endangered fish is any reason not to act to save the lives of four humans - that does not mean I won't be concerned about the fish. And not just for the sake of the fish. As the quote goes, extinction is forever, and everything alive directly affects us. There is never a way of knowing that fish won't end up being our only means of survival.
- Yoj
Yoj
You don't send ticking packages through the mail do you? the uni-yoj :)
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Excuse me! That's the Yoji-bomber, please!
No - I get riled up by extremes on all sides. Some of the animal rights bunch seem to reside in cloud-kookoo land. However, I don't dismiss all of it either. We are the boss ape on this world - that's reality - and I do kinda like my species (well, most of the time). I just think we can't forget we're not here by ourselves. And, again, its not for altruistic reasons. Taking care of the place we live in is good for us.
- Yoj
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I tend to agree that this is more of a bureaucratic error than the direct fault of Environmental Protection policies. Make your argument against bureaucratic nonsense and I'm on board.
A better example of environmental policies gone amuck would be the Oregon farmers denied any water all summer (for a suckerfish I believe?) until it was just recently overturned, too late for any crops this year.
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I tend to agree that this is more of a bureaucratic error...
Yup, prolly a republican error. <snicker> :p
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You forgot the k in republikan. I'm sure it was somehow tied to the plot to take candy from underpriveledged babies and give it to corporate CEOs.
Careful Jihad, you'll start foaming again.
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yoj,
i appoligize if i feel like a human is more important than a fish, but im sure im deffenitely not the only one who thinks that way. how can we involontary put the lives of other human beings on the line for a couple of fish? im just saying that if it were me and i happened to live through that blaze i would raise hell over that one. just imagine how it felt to be burned alive because a few fish were in the water. are you willing to give up your life for a fish yoj?
pimpjoe <S>
p.s.
is that better stsanta?
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Come on Joe - you're misunderstanding me on purpose, aren't you? Come on - 'fess up! :)
Its quite clear that those people did not die because someone thought a fish was more important than their lives. If that did happen to be the reason, the person making that decision would be guilty of at least "depraved indifference".
We get way too much of this "black and white" dichotomy in these threads - the idea that if you don't think A then you must think B. I do not think that the right to life of an endangered fish is equal to the life of an endangered human. I do, however, think the right to life of an endangered fish should count for something compared to an UN-endangered human. I do think that the fish has some kind of right to life as a species. That means we can eat it, harvest it for commercial use, etc., - but we don't have the right to make it extinct just because we feel like it - not even if we can show a profit. If that means that every once in a while we can't do anything we want, just because of some damn fish - tough!
I'm not for giving voting rights to Salmon, but I don't mind some restrictions in order to ensure there ARE Salmon. There's few better things than Alder smoked Salmon.
- Yoj
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What yoj is saying is that we have to protect the life on the planet or we may end up giving all of our lives, the life of our species, for profit. What difference is it to give your life for a species or for a corporation's profit? You're still dead.
Sometimes you have to look at the big picture rather than the small. There are six billion humans on the planet, a few less doesn't matter in the long run.
In this specific istance the beaurecrat screwed up and people died who shouldn't have. Fox News then sensationalized it as they are wont to do to make it seem that there were actually regulations that stopped the firefighters from getting the water. That was utter and complete BS. Because of this two separate issues have been made to seem like one issue. Fox News is the party guilty of causing this deception.