Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Ghosth on March 14, 2006, 06:43:58 AM
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HELP!
Ok, so I have this shiny new Asrock dual SATA 939 board in my new case.
Everything is all hooked up and running, well mostly running that is.
Graphic intensive programs tend to "lock up" at random times for no apparent reason. IE not Heat, input, no explainable reason for it. When it happens there is NOTHING. A frozen picture on screen, nothing moves, nothing works.
Full blown total LOCK. Wait 10 seconds or 10 min, doesn't matter. Its stuck, from here its not moving.
I've read the manual 14 times, and all it really does is tell you what a given bios setting is. It never tells you what it should be set to.
There are NO, None, zip, nada settings I can find for PCI-E.
That sucker totally under its own control?
What about NB timing, 1000? 800? 600? 400? 200? Auto?
16 bit or 32?
Same for SB timing?
Not to mention memory settings. Leave em all at Auto?
CPU, voltage, & ram all on straight stock settings, no Overclock at all.
I'm running a dual boot, win 98 SE & XP
and it does it in both. Which tells me its in bios that my problem lies.
AMD Venice 3200 939 cpu
Asrock Dual SATA 939 Mboard
2x 256 Kingston ddr ram. (ordered 400 but its showing as 333)
Powercolor X800GT PCI-E video
WD 200 Gig 7200 rpm 8mb buffer IDE hard drive.
Liteon 16x dual layer DVD burner.
All in a Mwave case with 500 watt power supply.
I do NOT believe its heat related. MBM shows everything cool.
Case has 8.5 " fan on the side. Plus another 120mm fan in back, both blowing in. Warm air exhausts out the front. Case is close to a window, it was 10 degrees F last night outside, window open 2 inches, TONS of cold air rolling in, and gets sucked right up into the case.
MBM had cpu temps running 29 degrees C with case about 25C.
This tally's pretty well with what I've seen in the hardware monitoring in bios.
31c is the highest I've seen the cpu at in bios.
Anyone have ANY clue, or can shine ANY light on this subject at all?
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My guess : weak power supply
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In looking at the asrock mobo in Toms hardware as well as the reviews in eghead they all said the same thing. Get the new mobo drivers BEFORE you dismantle your old system. Load them up at the earliest possible moment then continue with the system. They said the original flash on the mobo was not complete. Since you have access to the internet I'd get the new drivers first before doing anything else to the cmos or settings.
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YUP...FLASH IT AND RESET IT ALL FROM SCRATCH. YOU WILL HAVE TO SET UP YOUR SATA BEFORE IT WILL BOOT SO JUST DO IT ALL ON THE FIRST RESTART. AND YES...AT LEAST FOR TESTING LEAVE MEM TIMING AND ALL THAT ON AUTO
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Ok I read the same things myself about the bios needing to be updated so that was almost the first thing I did. And yes I had the updated drivers before I had the board itself.
Next, about power supply, this is a brand new PS, 500 watts, its running 1 ide hd, 1 cd, 1 dvd, 3 fans(the includes the CPU fan) , and the MB. It doesn't show any signs of running short on power or under voltage in MBM. So I have a hard time believeing its the power supply at this point.
There is virtually NO settings in bios for PCI-E.
These cards designed to be that foolproof?
Last, no SATA here, 200 gig IDE HD. Sata is just a bit too particular in Win98 for my taste. So I went back to IDE.
SO, with all that said, its STILL locking up.
What next?
There is a single jumper on the pci-e video card. Anyone know what thats for?
btw powercolor did a TERRIBLE job of documentation for this card.
Basicly how to removed the video drivers, turn off power, swap cards, power up & install new drivers is ALL there is. And of course its in 18 languages. So that good little book has got exactly 1 page that you can read.
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Well I got 3 week ago a 500w no-name PSU I had all the trouble you mentionned so I exchanged the PSU for a 50€ 500w(truly) LC-Power (almost no-name brand but a bit better) and all my look up troubles are gone ...
Before installing the new PSU I tried all kind of drivers ,I even re-installed XP 3 or 4 times unplugued all not vital hardware (DVD,DVD Burner , Fan ,etc) and it didn't worked until I changed the PSU.
btw I guess you ordered of those cases ?
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/Viewproducts.hmx?PID=CASE-MWAVE&Updepts=CASE&Dname=%3Cb%3ECases+%2D+PC%3C%2Fb%3E
You know this cases and the included PSU are cheaper than a good PSU ?
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Yep, MWAVE PRESTIGE (BLACK) MIDDLE TOWER W/500W ATX POWER SUPPLY 4x5.25" 2x3.5" 5x3.5"(hidden) W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR & 25cm SIDE FAN
Is the case sitting on my desktop right now.
According to the hardware monitor in bios.
Vcore 1.435
+3.3 = 3.43
+ 5 = 5.13
+12 = 12.16
You really think its the power huh.
BTW anyone know exactly what a jumper on video card means?
Says " pal/ntsc " was set to pal.
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I guess it's for the video output PAL is the European video standard and NTSC is the American one , but if you don't plug it on a television it doesn't matter, plus most of the new TV set are compatyble with both standard.
Can't you try to plug your mobo + video on another tower ?
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Its always hard to find these problems, might have to go a long road. Best would be if you find a way to reproduce the error, maybe with SETI@home, Prime95 or some other program. Some diagnostic Program like SiSoft Sandra might help too.
I suspect memory or disc controller. Maybe the windows event log holds some errors for you. Since i have a german windows i cant tell you how to find it. But if it is disc or ram related a test putting extensive load on either might bring up which is the problem.
1, make sure you have the RAM modules seated in the correct slots, need to check in the motherboard manual.
2, reset the bios settings to default (somewhere should be a reload default) and then time the ram slower. That is set it to 333 MHz and CL4. If that works without crashing then your ram isnt working in the motherboard.
3. try to run with an old IDE hard disc, maybe disc controller/disk have communications problem.
4. find a friend who borrows you a weaker pci-e graphics card, something like radeon x600 x700... only do this with a radion card, since you can use em with the same drivers. Installing nvidia card will bring you to hell.
5. Did you plug in the power cord to the graphics board and the aditional 4 pin plug on the motherboard (square)
6. check for furballs (dustballs, not the big ones in N1k), screws, straps, washers whatever that got stuck on motherboard on mounting-
7. reseat all cables, checking visually and manually if they are plugged in correctly (correct place and far enough)
8. check if anything has contact with the motherboard (cable) which doesnt have to
9. check if the ram modules are plugged in fully, the little plastic levers should be completly hooked on the ram
10. if all that doesnt help remove all expansion stuff and run the pc with graphic card, 1 hd, 1 cd/dvd drive only (well and ram,cpu,cooler,powersupply)
Handle all stuff carefully... easy to break some of the equip while fiddling around on the board, dont try to press in the stuff to hard, if it does not fit there is probably a reason.
Hope you found some new ideas here and get it fixed.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Yep, MWAVE PRESTIGE (BLACK) MIDDLE TOWER W/500W ATX POWER SUPPLY 4x5.25" 2x3.5" 5x3.5"(hidden) W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR & 25cm SIDE FAN
Is the case sitting on my desktop right now.
According to the hardware monitor in bios.
Vcore 1.435
+3.3 = 3.43
+ 5 = 5.13
+12 = 12.16
You really think its the power huh.
BTW anyone know exactly what a jumper on video card means?
Says " pal/ntsc " was set to pal.
OK, lets try again, I keep posting this on different threads, no-one seems to listen -
Latest video cards require a lot of power, not just Wattage but AMPS.
It is recommended to have around 18-20 AMPS available on the +12V rail.
Thats the difference betwwen a no-name PSU and a brand name PSU.
The brand name ones tend to have a much better +12V AMP output.
PAL/NTSC - For US NTSC, UK PAL (applies to TV output/input only).
NTSC - 525 lines @ 60hz
PAL - 625 lines @ 50hz
Just different television/video standards.
Extra info - Got fed up buying TV sets every time I got posted to a diff country so ended up buying a multi system TV -
It covered -
NTSC 3
NTSC 4
PAL
PAL2
SECAM
MESECAM
and 110v up to 240v.
Came in handy when the village I was living at in the UK was having 'brownouts', TV just stepped down from 240v and kept on going, only functional TV in the village for about 5 hours :) .
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Originally posted by Schutt
Its always hard to find these problems, might have to go a long road. Best would be if you find a way to reproduce the error, maybe with SETI@home, Prime95 or some other program. Some diagnostic Program like SiSoft Sandra might help too.
I suspect memory or disc controller. Maybe the windows event log holds some errors for you. Since i have a german windows i cant tell you how to find it. But if it is disc or ram related a test putting extensive load on either might bring up which is the problem.
1, make sure you have the RAM modules seated in the correct slots, need to check in the motherboard manual.
Tried all 4 slots, all possible configurations. No change there.
2, reset the bios settings to default (somewhere should be a reload default) and then time the ram slower. That is set it to 333 MHz and CL4. If that works without crashing then your ram isnt working in the motherboard.
Been there, have had ram set from 400 to 200 with no impact on the problem.
Don't believe its the ram.
3. try to run with an old IDE hard disc, maybe disc controller/disk have communications problem.
Nope, had another hd plugged into it.
Have checked the drive with WD utilitys, all works fine, no issues.
4. find a friend who borrows you a weaker pci-e graphics card, something like radeon x600 x700... only do this with a radion card, since you can use em with the same drivers. Installing nvidia card will bring you to hell.
That isn't an option unfortunatly.
5. Did you plug in the power cord to the graphics board and the aditional 4 pin plug on the motherboard (square)
There was no power socket on the graphics board to plug power into.
Yes the additional 4 pin plug on mboard is plugged in.
6. check for furballs (dustballs, not the big ones in N1k), screws, straps, washers whatever that got stuck on motherboard on mounting-
Yep, clean as a whistle
7. reseat all cables, checking visually and manually if they are plugged in correctly (correct place and far enough)
16 times so far
8. check if anything has contact with the motherboard (cable) which doesnt have to
Yep been here done this also.
9. check if the ram modules are plugged in fully, the little plastic levers should be completly hooked on the ram
Yep, all is well
10. if all that doesnt help remove all expansion stuff and run the pc with graphic card, 1 hd, 1 cd/dvd drive only (well and ram,cpu,cooler,powersupply)
Handle all stuff carefully... easy to break some of the equip while fiddling around on the board, dont try to press in the stuff to hard, if it does not fit there is probably a reason.
Hope you found some new ideas here and get it fixed.
Well its a moot point now.
Yesterday after doing some research, and finding out that tons of people have problems with pci-e cards crashing in any game, 3d enviorment. I kept digging and digging and everything points to flashing the bios on the video card.
So after 2 hours of downloading 3 flash utilitys, 4 bios images, loading all to a floppy. Trying one after another of the flash utilitys, fighting and battling the demeon in dos. I finally successfully flashed the bios.
Rebooted, and I have this blank light screen with lines & stuff on it.
SO, I went back to mwave.com, I'm sending this PCI-E POS back.
Going with a ATI all in wonder 256 mb AGP 8x card.
Till then I'm typing with a Blaster 3d banshee pci card.
Because my OLD agp cards are too old to work.
I think its got a huge 32mb of ram on it!
Won't quite run AH. but its fine for mail & BBS.
Thanks for trying all
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Originally posted by Kev367th
OK, lets try again, I keep posting this on different threads, no-one seems to listen -
Latest video cards require a lot of power, not just Wattage but AMPS.
It is recommended to have around 18-20 AMPS available on the +12V rail.
Thats the difference betwwen a no-name PSU and a brand name PSU.
The brand name ones tend to have a much better +12V AMP output.
I hear you kev, truly I do. I know the diff between volts & watts.
They don't give us a meter for watching that. What I do know if it was that short on power, unplugging all the CD/DVD drives would make a difference. Correct?
There is no power connect to the video card at all. (suprised me)
Unplugging the fans, both cd/dvd drives, so that the only things powered by the PS were the Mboard, and a single IDE HD. MADE NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.
If it was the power supply, it would have, correct?
OK
Yes, I bought a cheap power supply.
Yes I expect to have to replace it in the next 2 years.
The problem is the unstable POS PCI-E frickin Video Card.
Problem is proving it.
Whoops, hold the phone. After putting in an OLD OLD OLD pci graphics card this computer for the first time successfully managed to go an entire 10 hours without locking up. This is a FIRST!
Thats all the proof I need.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
I hear you kev, truly I do. I know the diff between volts & watts.
They don't give us a meter for watching that. What I do know if it was that short on power, unplugging all the CD/DVD drives would make a difference. Correct?
you can evaluate your need using this http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/
A optical drive suck between 10 and 25W (average17.5W) a fan about 3W imagine your PSU is 50W short you removed 17.5*2 + 3 == 38W ...
you are still short ...
There is no power connect to the video card at all. (suprised me)
[/B]
According to the documentaion I read : http://www.powercolor.com/ftp/RX800-A.pdf ... there is one
PS: read this article : http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1938044,00.asp
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OK The extreme tech article was very interesting.
However the http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply site was awesome.
At last, a tool to evauluate how much I'm using.
36 watts for motherboard, keyboard, mouse, floppy, and cpu fan.
CPU, AMD 64 3200 89 watts
Video card I did not see a PCI-E card listed. Hope they update this.
But the majority of the X800's came over at 66 watts. (mine wasn't overclocked)
1 wd ide hd at 25 watts.
1 pci network card at 4 watts.
A SB pci512 at 7 watts.
CD rom 20 watts
DVD-rw/CD 30 watts
I have 2 chassis fans, a 120 mm and a 8.5 inch.
So I comprimised with 3 fans at 2 watts each for 6 watts.
At several times in testing the big one was NOT operating.
1 usb sidewinder at 5 watts.
Grand total is 308 watts.
Now, even if that side fan DID add another 6 - 10 watts. Thats NOT going to break the bank on 500 watt power supply. And remember, at several points for testing, both CD's were unplugged, side fan unplugged. and no add on cards in the system. Floppy drive was almost always unplugged except when I first loaded Win 98.
That takes it down to mboard, cpu, ram, video.
And it STILL crashed!
Now, I'm not saying you couldn't have had an iffy power supply.
And I'm NOT saying that this one is going to last forever.
But its NOT the root cause of my problems. And unless your going to send me a new 400 watt power supply free of charge we can't prove that it is.
However, I do thank you VERY VERY MUCH for the links and the attempt.
But I sincerely do think its the pci-e video card.
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Well as I said I got previously a supposed 500W PSU which was unable to give more than 300W (brand was Heden) so wait till you recieve your new card but I guess you will have the same trouble (even if I hope not)
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Well your own tests suggest one of two things -
a) Bad card.
b) Insufficient +12V amps on the rail to run the later card, but enough to run the earleir PCI card.
Look on the side of the PSU it should list the amps for each rail, important one is the +12V one.
Looking at your 308 watts -
Not all devices use +12V rail, but assuming they did -
308/12 = 25amps.
I'd make sure your +12V rail is rated around 18-20 amps.
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BTW I went back & looked again.
I could see a blank spot on the pcb board where a power coupler could have gone. Compared with the pdf that straffo put up for me.
For sure there was NO power connector on my board.
For sure it looked like there should have been one.
Which just might explain the problem. :)
BTW if it IS power supply, I'll know soon as I get that AGP card in.
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In your bios look for a setting for PEG, that is what my Gigabyte k8nPro-Sli motherboard has. PEG-PCI Express Graphics. I was sorta confused while looking for something for PCI Express myself as I was expecting to see something like PCI-X or PCI-E. Also on your power cord to the video card, ensure that it is the only device connected to that rail (rail=power line from power supply with the plug at the end). Do not use a splitter to power your vid card and another device like the HD or a CDrom etc...
Hope this helps...
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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This is getting a major problem it seems.
Most graphic cards sold now are pci-e, so when you read that someone had trouble with a graphic card then it is most probably a pci-e card. This does not mean pci e graphic cards are bad.
There is only one motherboard currently on the marked which has a pcie graphic slot AND an AGP graphic slot, so if you want to use a AGP graphic card you probably need another motherboard.
That the graphic board has a place where a power connector could go but there is none is normal for a cheap graphic board but it does hint to the original problem, maybe the card draws a lot of power through the motherboard and the motherboard cant deliver that.
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Schutt, the good news is I have that motherboard.
Asrock dual SATA has both PCI-E and AGP 4/8x.
BTW ATI all in wonder 9600 went in without a hitch.
Rock solid in both Win 98, AND in win XP.
Ran all night in XP last night after flying both Fri night Squad ops and a hour in main after.
ZERO problems.
Moral of the story, check everything, do everything and when it all still doesn't work.
Blame Powercolor & a cheap PCI-E card. And myself for chosing it in the first place.