Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Badboy on March 14, 2006, 07:41:44 PM
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Hi,
Here is an annotated gun camera footage showing the barrel roll defense.
http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Thankyou badboy and the Training corps, very nice..
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Brilliant video, Badboy!
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I'm just glad it was legible enough to read. There is a hi-res web based version with much better clarity, but the file size is much bigger.
That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.
That can be true, but it generally isn't, the pilot with more energy does have an advantage providing he knows how to use it. In that film the two attacking pilots had the advantage, a very big advantage, they ran down a slower pilot and either one of them should have made an easy kill. Working together, they could have made it even easier.
They didn't because they made a number of mistakes. The first attacker made some fairly crucial mistakes in close succession. The second attacker didn't live long enough to make as many, but if you can spot them, they are fairly instructive. So, can you guys spot them? Try the following questions:
List the first attackers mistakes in the order they occurred?
If you were the first attacker, what would you have done differently?
Badboy
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Well, the first attacker just went blazing in way too fast, trying to keep his nose on the enemy. When the enemy turned he tried to, as well. When the enemy rolled, he tried to, as well. He tried, which is a good thing, but he didn't set up his attack. I would have manuvered closer before comitting to a turn fight like that, but then I'm no expert.
The second attacker's first mistake was coming in WAY too hot. Should have chopped throttle about 600d back, scrubbed some speed (just a bit). The second mistake was hitting a sitting target, that wasn't manuvering. The third mistake was not pulling up when the overshoot was inevitable, and instead flying directly past the target and into it's guns. Either fly up, down, port, starboard, anything but directly into its guns!
An interesting film, and very well illustrated.
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very nice illustration badboy:aok
TC had some great moves there. barrel rolls are a great NEA reversal, but they dont always work out, and that is a point people need to understand before they try this.
another important point to note is that you should only cut the throttle in these rolling reversals if you must, because you will need energy to make the kill at the end, otherwise the bandit will get away from you, even if you do ping him a few times
again, very nicely done BB
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That's something a lot do, they cut throttle really fast hoping for the instant overshoot. You can spot it easily and if you just go straight by the time they've finished leveling out they're stalling and 600+ behind you, and you're speeding away.
Then again there's the folks that go a little too fast and you can easily make up some manuver to get yourself a snapshot on them while they try to barrel roll you.
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As a guess, once the shot was blown, instead of continuing to turn he should have extended then re engage or gone high, perhaps to the left to gain some separation and hopefully be coming back down with defender below and ahead of him.
I can see it in my head easier than write it down.
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What about just roping the defensive pilot? That might have worked, and if he didn't bite, just come back down on him, nothing lost but a little time.
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if anyone ever tries that on you, and you think that you might just over shoot, point the nose high, infact, you could go vertical, gain some alt, wait for him to stop, then get him. he will have lost E in the maneuver, so it will be far harder for him to evade you this time, and an easier shot to lead:aok
same with any kind of overshoot stuff. if you suspect something, go up, and get him when he stops/stalls
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Originally posted by Badboy
That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.
This is so TRUE..........yet so wrong to teach it as being an appropriate way of fighting........who wants to always fight from a defensive position......
Originally posted by Badboy
List the first attackers mistakes in the order they occurred?
my first thoughts would be he did not assess the capibilities and weakness of each aircraft: his 109k4 vs my F4u1C.......had he done this, he would have known to go UP, instead of DOWN, when I decided to go UP, when I saw him go DOWN :D
Pooface: as for your comment:if anyone ever tries that on you, and you think that you might just over shoot, point the nose high, infact, you could go vertical, gain some alt, wait for him to stop, then get him. he will have lost E in the maneuver, so it will be far harder for him to evade you this time, and an easier shot to lead.....same with any kind of overshoot stuff. if you suspect something, go up, and get him when he stops/stalls
I would not put 100% faith in believing this or thinking this, if you do, it will come back to bite you and bite you HARD ;) you must read your opponent's E-state. just thinking he is bleeding E will not suffice, you must KNOW that he is at a lower E than yourself and that he CAN NOT reach you........trust me when I say alot of us have already tryed and thought this way before.....in regards to going up and wait.....learning to judge E states of your enemy in this game is one of the most demanding skills to accomplish in my opinion, that and practicing GOOD SA habits......
am surprised badboy made this, good stuff ( editorial wise ) badboy ~S~
my flying isn't that great , nor is my gunnery..........
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Very nice job Badboy and TC.
Reading explanations of ACM's sometimes leaves me more confused then ever.
The visual aspect of your written explanation was terrific.
Do more!
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One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent. You want to anticipate where your opponent will be on the "bottom" of his revolution, and place your lift vector there while you are maintaining as close to strictly vertical in your revolutions as you can.
The rolling scissors is a "race to the back"... whoever can bleed off the most forward momentum is going to win. Constantly rolling you keep your lift vector on the opponent uses energy you could be using to bleed forward momentum.
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Here is the mistake in a much more general sense. If you (the trail) have the E advantage in a lead-trail situation, you have a decision to make in advance. Either you are going to keep your E, and separate when you know you cant follow. Or you are going to dump E to the point of equalizing energy and trail their every move. Trying to do both at the same time will end up with you in lead position.
When you have E, you should be able to dictate the flow of the fight. But when you allow the low E plane to draw you in to where there is very little separation, and still try to keep your E, you allow them to dictate the fight. If the 'lead' is good they are in effect saying "Follow me, I'll give you a nice target in a few seconds. Thats good, keep comming, closer....closer. Psyc, just kidding." The angles are already crafted, where you're not likely to make the shot. So while at face value you may think the first mistake is blowing the shot, the mistake had already happend a few seconds earlier when you didnt make a clear decision. If you stubbornly tried to maintain gun solutions until you are on top of them, you gave up your separation, and it is way to late to dump E. Hopefully you can extend out of gun range without getting tagged at that point, but if you decided either/or before you gave up separation, you wouldnt be in that prediciment.
By the way, I am not saying don't try to take a shot. I am saying take a shot if you see it, but do it with consideration to the minimum separation that you feel you can allow.
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Heres my take on this.....
First attacker:
Should have decided if he wanted to "BnZ" and keep his E - then he shouldnt have turned with TC more then a few degrees and, after missing his shot, pulled back up - or second option get committed into a turnfight (if thats smart or not in a 109 against TCs F4U, i dont dare decide) - for a committed turnfight he came in too fast and didnt bleed his E off quick enough. This is an either or decision, the in between usually gets you back to tower fast.
The way the 109 did it, he had one shot at a sharp turning plane, his excess E made it impossible to stay with the F4U. This actually worsened by the fact that the 109 had a nose low attitude halfway though the first turn, which made the radius even wider.
Im not sure since i rarely fly the 109 series, but IIRC they have a hard time bleeding off speed fast. A defininte disadvantage in this position.
The decision for a low G extension came at the worst moment possible.... when in line of 4 Hispanos......
Second attacker:
Too fast. Bad SA (he couldve anticipated TC going low after the first one and aim for the place he will be (with enough lead) instead he pointed his guns directly at the bogey, hence never getting a gun solution. When he realised his overshoot, he shouldve gone UP, not directly in TCs gunsight.
Basically, TC used their E-"advantage" against them and they let him do it.
Please point out MY mistakes in this assessment..... im very often in a defensive position in the MA, and mostly not successfully so.
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didnt watch it but ... chop throttle kick rudder wave good bye pull trigger boom.
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only time throttle got chopped/or even moved, was from 2:27 to 2:27 of the 3 minute film. the fight was over at 2:34.......so that is 1/10th or 1/100th of a second or less.. and it was incidental at that trying to check view for La7....
this was not one of them, drag them in, CHOP THROTTLE, KICK RUDDER, type fights.......
Murdr bout sums it up in his assessment and Ms Schatzi, yes they unknowingly did let me use their advantage against them.......
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I got the impression yucca was saying if he was behind you, he would have chosen to dump E, but it was left open to wide interpretation.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I got the impression yucca was saying if he was behind you, he would have chosen to dump E, but it was left open to wide interpretation.
yep, Murdr, if I sit and think about it in different ways, he might possibly have meant that, he did leave it open ended :D
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Good , one minor point, red font on blue background is pretty hard for my eyes.
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Originally posted by Badboy
That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.
That can be true, but it generally isn't, the pilot with more energy does have an advantage providing he knows how to use it.
Badboy
I suffer from this affliction, I get more Joy out of winning from a E disadvantage than an E advantage. So I almost prefer to start at the disadvantage. What makes it so appealing is MOST in the MA will fall for it everytime.
As soon as I see a pilot with an E advantage not taking my bait, I know my flight will be short lived.
Balsy
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Some excellent responses there!
Here are my thoughts… I’ve listed the first attacker’s mistakes in the order they struck me as I watched the film. Then I’ve explained a more appropriate maneuver. Apologies in advance, it’s a bit long winded.
The attacker’s actions were less than optimal with respect to the following points:
[list=1]
- Pursuit curve used to close with the defender.
- Turn circle entry used to engage the defender.
- Energy management used with respect to 1 and 2 above.
- Aircraft Handling Characteristics (AHC) miss-judged.
- Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) incorrectly employed.
- Disengagement/Extension incorrectly employment.
[/list=1]
One possible explanation for the high number errors may have nothing to do with the lack knowledge. In this case there were two attacking pilots, and it is possible that they were more concerned with something other than good BFM. I suspect they may have been putting each other under some pressure because each of them wanted to get the kill before the other, in effect they were competing against each other, and that compelled them both to go for the quicker low probability shot and accept the associated risks. That’s a factor that influences arena play, in an unnatural way.
But before continuing, let's look at the initial attack from the 109's perspective.
http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation7.avi
In that film you will notice that the attacker uses pure pursuit to track the bandit. It’s what is known as Gunsight BFM, and it feels natural for inexperienced pilots to keep their gun sight on the target, unfortunately it is almost the worst thing to do. There are there possible pursuit curves, lead, pure and lag, and the mechanics of the pure pursuit curve are such that you should only pull just enough g to keep your velocity vector pointing at the target.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Pursuit.gif)
That’s exactly what this attacker was doing. The problem is as the range decreases, the g load required increases to the extent that pure pursuit becomes an impossible curve to follow if you are much faster than your opponent. If you try, the load required to maintain the pursuit curve quickly exceeds the 6g blackout limit. So in a high speed attack, against a slower opponent who executes a break turn, as was the case here, a pure pursuit curve will always lead to a flight path overshoot if the attacker attempts to track the bandit throughout the attack. A lead pursuit curve may have been slightly better, because that involves pulling more G than necessary earlier in the turn, which means that less g is necessary later in the turn when it may even have been possible to unload for the snap shot. However, those are both weak options because at best they only offer a difficult high aspect deflection shot and that comes with the certainty of a flight path overshoot, and considerable risk of a 3-9 line overshoot. What was the best option? LAG PURSUIT.
Regardless of whether the attacker has decided he is about to enter the fight as the energy fighter, or the angles fighter, the lag pursuit curve is better. Remember, the choice between angles or energy fighter at this stage is not made with respect to aircraft type, it is made with respect to the relative energy states of the two aircraft, even a Zeke with a big energy advantage on a P-51 should fly as an energy fighter initially. So why is lag pursuit better regardless of the type of fight?
If the attacker is not too much faster than the defender and believes his aircraft can out turn his opponent he should drive for the turn circle entry window, and that means lag pursuit! He will enter his opponents turn circle with a little more energy, and he can store it by using a climbing turn that will drain his opponents maneuvering potential and angular velocity, eventually he will be able to trade his own energy for greater angular velocity and a kill.
If the attacker is too fast for that, as he was in this case, and if he was flying an aircraft that doesn’t have a turn rate advantage, as he was in this case, the answer is to enter the fight as the energy fighter, and once again the solution is a lag pursuit curve, and the high yo-yo. Why the high yo-yo?
The high yo-yo is an offensive tactic in which the attacker maneuvers through both the vertical and horizontal planes to prevent an overshoot in the plane of the defender’s turn. From this definition, the purpose of the maneuver is obvious: To maintain an offensive advantage by keeping a nose to tail separation between the attacker and defender. In other words, the high yo-yo is a counter for the break turn, the barrel roll defense and the scissors maneuver. That sounds good, but how does it work?
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/YoYo.gif)
As an attacker, when it becomes apparent that it will be impossible to stay inside the defender’s turn radius, you should employ the high yo-yo. To perform the maneuver correctly, timing is essential.
For example, if an attacker is conservative and does the high yo-yo too early, the defender can simply lower his nose and dive for separation in order to equalize energy so that eventually the attacker will be forced to disengage to avoid an angles fight. If the attacker yo-yo’s too late, it will be difficult for him to maintain his rear aspect. He will still overshoot his opponent’s flight path so that the defender can either reverse or pull up into the attacker.
Correct timing means that the moment the attacker realizes that he will be unable to stay inside his opponent’s turn radius, he should roll away from the defender’s turn and pull his nose through the vertical plane. The purpose of this action is to diminish his turning component and vector velocity in the plane of the defender’s turn. To acquire max effectiveness, the attacker must maintain back pressure and employ ailerons as primary control for directional change in the vertical plane. The attacker rolls toward the vertical plane so that his flight path describes an arc through both the vertical and horizontal planes (assuming that the defender is turning, more or less, through the horizontal plane). As a result, the attacker’s turning component and vector velocity are diminished in respect to the defender’s turning and velocity components in the plane of the defender’s turn. This allows the attacker to maintain his rear aspect while turning inside his opponent. At the same time, the control technique employed (back pressure and ailerons as primary control for the maneuver) not only allows the attacker to reduce his turn and velocity components to their smallest value, but also reduces his yo-yo apex. This provides the defender very little maneuvering freedom with which to counter the high yo-yo. By maintaining back pressure on the stick throughout, the attacker prevents the overshoot, thus defeating the barrel roll defense and scissors, and also denies the defender the option of diving away to gain separation.
Hope that helps…
Badboy
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Badboy, in your description of the Hi YoYo you say the attacker should roll away from the defenders turn. But looking at the diagram that you've posted it seems that the attackers turn is the same direction but just nose high. So could you please elaborate the meaning of roll away.
Thanks
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nice illustraion film. I'd change the text color though...
Murdr has pretty much summed this up. From the attacker point of view the key is an early decision and comittement. The common mistake is them seeing they are about to blow it but keep trying to compensate instead of breaking off and trying something different.
If you feel you are about to over-shoot, break off the attack immediately, BEFORE you actually overshoot! If you do this early enough it is possible to pull high and drop back down behind him but this time slower. This is a common move with 109 experts and generally a good option for avoiding or defeating a scissors attempt.
If you decided to break off but want to keep as much E for continued BnZ or a rope attempt, roll "away" and pull up. By "away" I mean that if the defender is making a right turn, then you should pull up and a little to the left. This allows you to build up the seperation faster as the defender needs to roll more and cover more degrees to point at you as you pull away.
FTJR, I think badboy means by "away" the same as I do. In his yoyo drawing, red is rolled 90 to the left and follow blue turn. Then roll a little to the right (away) reducing the bank and pulling up to the yoyo.
Bozon
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Ah, I see, tks Bozon
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Originally posted by Urchin
One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent. You want to anticipate where your opponent will be on the "bottom" of his revolution, and place your lift vector there while you are maintaining as close to strictly vertical in your revolutions as you can.
The rolling scissors is a "race to the back"... whoever can bleed off the most forward momentum is going to win. Constantly rolling you keep your lift vector on the opponent uses energy you could be using to bleed forward momentum.
Urchin, I'm not following what you're saying in the text I colored red. What do you mean by "maintaining vertical in revolutions"? How can you keep lift vector on a spot at the bottom of a roll while going vertical?
I'd reallyu like to wrap my head around this, because I find I understand verbal explanations better until my clunky hand/eye system gets the knack.
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Simaril,
I replied to your email, but it bounced on me, the bex.com email addy says user unknown........try again
going on vacation in the AM, wil be a week+ before I get back......
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Originally posted by Urchin
One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent.
I would agree with that if both pilots began with roughly similar energy states, however, where one pilot is much faster than the other and the overshoot is almost certain, that doesn't apply to the slower pilot because he has already won the race to reduce his forward velocity, he should be more interested in finding a guns solution as soon as possible after the overshoot so that he can get the shot before his faster opponent pulls out of effective range. To do that he should keep his lift vector on his faster opponent, using ailerons to roll around the axis of his opponents forward velocity vector. Naturally, if the overshoot was in question, and the defender had to work for it, the correct procedure is to fly an out-of-plane lag pursuit course, where your lift vector should be pointing behind your opponent.
Badboy
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Originally posted by FTJR
Badboy, in your description of the Hi YoYo you say the attacker should roll away from the defenders turn. But looking at the diagram that you've posted it seems that the attackers turn is the same direction but just nose high. So could you please elaborate the meaning of roll away.
Thanks
Yep, you need to roll away from the defender's turn in order to pull your nose high, if you don't roll away from the defenders turn you can't execute the yo-yo and you will overshoot the defenders flight path and give him the opportunity to reverse his turn. When, due to his lower speed, he will have the advantage in the scissors.
Remember, the defender will be waiting for the flight path overshoot as his signal to reverse into a scissors, by yo-yoing off and avoiding the overshoot, you deny him that cue, and maintain your offensive advantage.
Badboy
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Originally posted by Simaril
I'd reallyu like to wrap my head around this, because I find I understand verbal explanations better until my clunky hand/eye system gets the knack.
Simaril,
I'd be happy to spend time with you in the training arena working on this or any other aspect of air combat. If you would like to set up some sessions, let me know?
Badboy
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Originally posted by Simaril
I'd reallyu like to wrap my head around this, because I find I understand verbal explanations better until my clunky hand/eye system gets the knack.
There is another component to this besides speed, which has been implied too, but not spelled out directly. That component is linear distance traveled. The distance you will travel from point A to point B is going to be determined by the pursuit angles being discussed. Of course the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. As urchin said this is a race to the back. So with that in mind, you will want to at least match the latteral component of your enemies maneuvers, and the point is that you cant do that by trying to stay in pure pursuit. I believe latteral might be a better term for what urchin was trying to say. Mabey seeing their effects will help.
In this first image, I was faster to begin with, and then made the situation worse by staying too close to pure pursuit (looking for a shot). At this point I had already just passed into the lead position
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/rh1.jpg)
So what did I do to compensate for that? I chopped the throttle, started using control surfaces to induce drag (speed), and exagerated lag pursuit for a few seconds (longer distance traveled). Look at how much larger my 'spiral' became, and how far back into trail I went in 9 seconds. So it was not only cutting speed, but also taking a longer route that allowed me to fall back into trail.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/rh2.jpg)
From that point on, I balanced my E and pursuit angle to maintain the desired separation.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/rh3.jpg)
Here is the film the screen shots were from (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/rollinghog.zip)
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Just posting the original work up on the film in a web format because it seems not everyone can view the original .avi film.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif)
Badboy
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Thanks Murdr!!
That is a GREAT help. Now I just need to get it into practice a few times....
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Glad that helped.
I just noticed I accidently posted that link to the raw film. Mistake corrected, that link will now download a film of the example engagment only.
The full film is availble in the 479th Library (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20)
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Gentlemen:
Thanks again for a great teaching tool. This approach has a huge potential for teaching ACM and its practical application!
As far as I'm concenred, the more annotated films you guys put out, the better. These gems let you teach fundamentals to FAR more than you can reach as individuals, and can consequently make your live training time that much more productive.
I'd like to request that HTC make a section on the "downloads" area for these products, just as they have for gunsights. The potential's amazing, jsut have o keep the availability and awareness up!
Simaril
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Bumped for you, you know who you are ;)
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now that is a excellent training aid... got anymore???
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My post on 4/14/06 in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&goto=lastpost&threadid=172513) contains 6 annotated films specifically on the subject. Also more general films posted prior in the thread.
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follow murdr's link if you find that often an opponent will make a move you just dont understand that seems impossible from your view point. as with TC's incredible double kill displayed earlier in the thread, sometimes its just as simple as seeing what really can be done with evasive and deffesive attacks.
the idea of winning a disadvantaged fight is to first take away your attackers ability to shoot you, second to shoot your attacker. if you would like to attempt to accomplish both in as little a time as possible it is often about a simple step in the way you think about freespace movement, and almost unlimited travel through our huge glass fishtanks filled with virtual air.
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I always get caught in limbo when I have the E advantage. Its like I see the defender trying to make me overshoot, & I extend while avoiding him rolling in behind me. My main trouble is staying with the defender. More specifically, I get too wrapped up in not wanting to overshoot that I tend to allow the defender to get too far away. Then I'm in a perpetual rinse & repeat deal over & over. Which would be okay if I was actually forcing the defender to use up his remaining E, which apparently I'm not...... Sidious
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hey sidious, thats a common scenario.
Often the lower plane, containing a more experienced player, will be at a large advantage during a BnZ attack.
the solution is in two parts and surprisingly simple.
1) continue the attack as a BnZ (boom n zoom) attack. when you see you have missed your chance, and the overshoot is inevitable, make sure you turn away from your attacker to deny him the shot, and use your energy to 'rinse and repeat' as you say.
2) the other option is to ensure you dont overshoot. when pulling these defensive manouvers a pilot is always giving away a chance on themselves before they can move for thier own shot. This is your chance, so come in on idle power, glide in behind your target and make the most of the chance you get.
This second method is far more dangerous, as you commit to either winning or losing very quickly. It is however more likely to win you the fight rather than multiple high speed passes.
bat
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bumping thread for someone's interest
hope this helps
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Also, this thread is linked to from the trainers site on this page (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
2) the other option is to ensure you dont overshoot. when pulling these defensive manouvers a pilot is always giving away a chance on themselves before they can move for thier own shot. This is your chance, so come in on idle power, glide in behind your target and make the most of the chance you get.
This second method is far more dangerous, as you commit to either winning or losing very quickly. It is however more likely to win you the fight rather than multiple high speed passes.
The principal reason not to use this approach in the arena is that once you've beaten the guy you've slowed down for, you're likely to have to deal with other nme in the area.
In a 1v1 I would use the equalise-speed solution every time.
Trip
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Originally posted by Badboy
Hi,
Here is an annotated gun camera footage showing the barrel roll defense.
http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi
Hope that helps...
Badboy
badboy....awsome the way you did this..........if you or any other trainers feel so inclined to do more clips like these...they make it much easier to visualize in your head the maneuvers you're trying to do.........
thank ya sir!
<>
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Bumped for Aces High Player: Thing
here ya go, hope this helps visualize some of the stuff we worked on in the TA......... see ya up Tuesday evening :salute
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Just flat out great badboy. I learned so much.
Also thanks to the others as you post and give more details and video.
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great video,
manovers like that is what I need to practice and improve on, thankyou for the video :salute.
if I was the attacker is this right thing to do; defender breaks hard into you, you relise you will not be able to get a guns soloution and zoom up and manover around to line up for another pass?