Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Blammo on March 15, 2006, 11:12:46 AM
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I have come into a little money and I am thinking about buying a new pistol. I already have a 12 ga shotgun and a 9 mm pistol. I had thought about a rifle (like a CAR 15 or Mini 14, etc), but I am leaning away from that. I have thought about maybe a .45 ACP, but I also like the .357 MAG round.
So, the point of this post is to get some people's thoughts and feedback. Any suggestions as far as caliber, manufacturer and model would be appreciated. The upper limit I am imposing on myself (because I know what I will do if I don't limit myself) is around $1000.
Thanks!
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Depends on what you want the gun for.
If for personal defence I would go with the 45acp and for that I would go Kimber.
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Sorry, I should have clarified. Yes, primarily this is a defense weapon. I have the 9mm for that right now and the 12 ga for home, but I am looking for something with more umph than the 9mm.
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the triple barreled nail gun from quake 2 was always a top favorite of mine, as was the chaingun in doom.
I've always been a fan of the laptop gun from perfect dark also, handy for setting ambushes.
failing that you can't ever go wrong with the twin DD44's from the original Goldeneye game for the nintendo 64.
hope this helps, good luck in your purchase.
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An upper limit of 1k? Nice. That'll get you pretty much any pistol worth having. I saw a Kimber .45 Ultra Carry II for $650 at the gunstore last Monday. It had me drooling. Only thing I'd prefer over that would be an H&K .45 USP
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You can't go wrong with a Sig 220 in .45ACP, or a Kimber 1911. My next handgun purchase will either be a .44 mag of some kind or a Kimber.
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a grand will get you into a nice kimber that you can take to the range, shoot all day long then throw in a holster and carry with 300% confidence in its reliability. get a kimber and be happy. :)
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First item is to stay away from a pistol that has the Colt name on it. It will be overpriced and likely to be poor quality control vs the clone manufacturers out there.
If you want the .45 either of these would do well.
Glock
Kimber
HK
Try going to an indoor range and see if they have these available for rent and test fire them. Choose the one that feels best for you and fits your budget. You shouldn't have trouble finding one that will leave plenty of $ left for practice ammo. Don't forget you'll need more than one magazine. I prefer to have at least 3.
The old .45 is easy to reload if you want to save money on practice and competition ammo. Go factory for "serious" uses. Run at least 250 rounds through it before you decide to stake your life on it. You want to make sure it's reliable.
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Originally posted by Blammo
The upper limit I am imposing on myself (because I know what I will do if I don't limit myself) is around $1000.
Thanks!
You have the extra 1000$ and you wan't to buy something. OK. But a gun ?
That is the best use you can find for that money ? Sheesh....
Gun nuts....:confused:
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Hey timmy,
Who made you the arbiter of what someone wants to buy. If you don't like guns that's fine, don't buy one. No one will criticize you for it. There is no reason other than your ego, for you to try and put your predjudice on another person however. It's not your money, you aren't his daddy, guardian or caretaker. In other words try just minding your own business. :huh
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In other words... Shut up you.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
In other words... Shut up you.
Lmao I'm picturing Carrol O'Connor as Archy Bunker saying this.
:rofl :rofl
Bronk
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Blammo, if you're looking for utter realibility, you can't go wrong with a wheel gun.
.44 Mag would be huge, someone like Lazs would probably steer you towards a .357 magnum.
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One
Bat:
Come one, man...go back to highjacking threads in the General Discussion forum and leave this one alone.
Two
Timmy:
A) And your opinion matters because...
...and...
B) Criminals and Tyrants love you ANTI-Gun Nuts.
Three
If possible, can this thread just be left to the gun appriciating, second ammendment exercising crowd? Thanks!
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i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?
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Smidsy,
Yep you are missing something. Example, typical 9mm round (projectile) is about 115 to 118 grains weight. Typical .45 projectile is about 180 to 230 grains. There is a significant difference in weight and also frontal diameter for impact transmission.
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?
The 45 acp has the ability to load up a much larger bullett I use 230grn in mine.
Also the energy the round creates at impact is night and day.
Have seen reports of perps being hit three times with 9mm and they still charged.
Remember the air force dude that was shot by the cop a few weeks ago?
he was hit three time at about 3ft range with a 9mm and lived.
If he had of been hit with a 45 acp he would have more than likely died.
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45cal ACP also know as "the flying ashtray"
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?
Here goes: (from my Criminalistics Notes, my friend/Instructor worked out of the Michigan State Police Crime Lab)
So why choose a .45 if a good 9mm produces equal wounds?
While the best (or worst depending on your point of view) 9mm wounds are about equal to the least effective .45s - and in some cases produce even larger diameter but shallower wounds - you pay for this by compromising the consistency of your cartridge performance.
A 9mm hollowpoint that gives consistent 12 inch penetration in gelatin in the lab sometimes gives 8 10" penetration in real flesh and blood targets and sometimes it gives 3 or 4" penetration and as little as 1/2" penetration with 125 gr. .38 +P jhp (and no it did not disintegrate nor glance off - it just stopped). If you happen to be shooting the one that gives 3" penetration, you might as well be shooting spit wads.
If you compare bullets of similar technology the larger bore shows proportional performance.
A .45 230 gr. Ball round destroys about 1.7 times as much tissue as a 9mm ball round. A 230 gr. .45 jhp destroys about 1.7 times as much tissue as a 9mm 124 jhp that expands. The thing is, due to its mass the 230 grain .45 gives more consistent penetration. While it is difficult, you can make a .45 an inefficient performer. You do this by lightening the bullet and increasing the velocity. While some 185 gr. .45s, reportedly, are well constructed and give fairly consistent penetration, some are not.
So, do the medium bores lack "stopping power", "shocking power" or what ever term you choose to use. Yes they do. So do the .45 Auto and the .44 magnum and the .223 so that is not the defining issue. The issue is that they are less likely to drive their bullet - given equal placement - through an important target with adequate damage to the organ.
Bottom line: shoot the biggest caliber you can handle.
Karaya
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Originally posted by john9001
45cal ACP also know as "the flying ashtray"
Only the 200gr. bullet was named this for the expansion this rounds goes through. HOWEVER, the draw back is it COMMONLY misfeeds in ALL types of .45's. I currently have CorBon +P 230 gr. in my USP 45. It gets me 950-ft/s.
Don't get me wrong it is a VERY EFFECTIVE cartridge (200gr.), it's just not reliable. I believe it is due to the slope of the bullet, and it gets hung up on the ramp.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Timofei
You have the extra 1000$ and you wan't to buy something. OK. But a gun ?
That is the best use you can find for that money ? Sheesh....
Gun nuts....:confused:
Wow, how intelli...I mean Infantile. That's the best you can come up with?! You chose to not to own a firearm. Great, I respect your decision. Now, sit down, shut up and don't try to inflict YOUR CHOICE on mine.
Karaya
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The flying ashtray was actually the 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity from CCI. Might not even be available anymore. I carried a 45 at work 20 years or so ago, and that was the issue load. I think it was a "Lawman" brand by CCI. We used the cheap Blazer version for practice, the agency didn't reload, and didn't allow you to collect the brass either. The Blazer version had a non reloadable aluminum case.
It is correct that the 230 required fitting and pistol smithing in MOST guns. The armorer at the agency profiled and polished the feed ramp, and adjusted the magazine guides at the top. It was a requirement that the guns run 500 rounds without a failure to feed, fire, or eject before they were issued. The "chief" was a good guy, and looked after the guys on the street, so our weapons were first rate, and well maintained. I left shortly after he was dismissed for backing a fellow officer in an unpopular (with certain elements of the public) non fatal shooting. Shortly after the "chief" was dismissed, I was tagged for excessive force, the new guy refused to back me, so after I won the civil suit, I told them to shove the badge.
Kimber is nice.
Sig P220 is as well.
Dan Wesson Patriot or Pointman also shoot very well, at least the ones I've shot.
Be aware that 1911 pattern guns must be cocked before they can be fired, and as such are actually single action first shot. Very short, and very light trigger pull. It leaves you confronting an opponent with your finger on the trigger of a cocked firearm with a short 3-5 pound trigger. It requires extra training and focus to avoid a stress induced AD. So long as you are trained, focused, and comfortable with that, then you cannot do much better than a 1911 pattern 45 like the Kimber or the Dan Wesson.
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I have a kimber with night sights... it is on the table next to me and a good, reliable firearm that I put in a suitcase and have on the nightstand.
I also have a smith and wesson 340pd that weighs 12 oz. and is a .357.
it kicks like holy hell and is no fun to shoot but... can be fired from inside a pocket and is as easy to carry as a cell phone and is utterly reliable.
I also have a cut down ruger redhawk in 44 mag that I shoot more than any other gun... it is more accurate and harder hitting than either of the other two and it is (to me) pleasant to shoot for the first 50-100 rounds. I trust it without question.
I can think of many different situations where any of these guns would be the best choice.
I enjoy shooting and reloading so.... along with a dozen more.... I have all of em.
lazs
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?
Had to dig this out of my photobucket, but .45 on top, 9mm on bottom. It's quite the difference when you compare the volume of each shell.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/indyallen/Pistol%20Range/post1.jpg)
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Thats actually a 45 long colt. 45 acp is still a big jump from 9mm anyways you slice it.
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45 colt and 45 acp are essentialy the same round.... same velocity and energy and both are .451/.452 at one time the old colt was .454 tho.
lazs
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45 colt and 45 acp are essentialy the same round....
are you on drugs?
not even factory ammo between the two rounds come close to comparing to eachother.
before you come back saying I'm wrong look at a reloading book.
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45acp.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc_ruger.JPG
I have even managed to stuff casule loads into my ruger bisley and its as tight as a drum still.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The flying ashtray was actually the 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity from CCI. Might not even be available anymore.
"CCI/Speer has announced the demise of its famous 200 gr. "flying ashtray" JHP."
Source: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_46/ai_64259193
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I love my HK USP 45! Holds 12 rounds, very accurtate, extrewmely well built.
The Sig P220 is an excellent .45 as well and it might fit you better if you have a smaller hand.
A new choice is the Springfield XD45ACP. It holds 13 rounds of .45 in a very compact grip. It just came out nad everyone really likes them.
And finally a 1911, Kimber is a great brand!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I love my HK USP 45! Holds 12 rounds, very accurtate, extrewmely well built.
How are you liking that piece of artwork GRUN? ;) I haven't cleaned mine since I fired it back in Jan. Maybe I'll clean it tomorrow. They just ARE that damned good.
Karaya
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hehe :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
hehe :)
:aok
Karaya
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Originally posted by Morpheus
are you on drugs?
not even factory ammo between the two rounds come close to comparing to eachother.
before you come back saying I'm wrong look at a reloading book.
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45acp.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc_ruger.JPG
I have even managed to stuff casule loads into my ruger bisley and its as tight as a drum still.
Lazs doesnt have to. I'll do it. Yer wrong.
:)
I reload both, and I know Lazs does too. I think what he was saying was if you look at the muzzle velocity of the two rounds, the commonly available (and commonly used) bullet weights, etc. you will see a great deal of similarity between the two. Now physically, yes, they are very different. In the casings. But with the slight modification of adding moon clips you can even shoot .45 ACP rounds in your .45 LC revolver. I know 2 men shooting Black Powder guns with a .45ACP conversion cylinder in their .45 LC's. If the LC hadnt been designed for BP originally, I seriously doubt the casing would be as large as it is, and would most likely be even more similar to the .45 ACP in performance. You'll see so much variation in the LC because there is so much wasted space inside.
*Edit
And before you go using "factory ammo loads" as proof, you might want to consider that the modern smokeless powder loads in .45 LC are "loaded down" to be useable in old guns that weren't proofed for smokeless powder. Most boxes of "modern" .45 LC are designed for Cowboy shooters (like me) specifically to give velocities in the 750-850 fps range. The wide range of .45 LC revolvers includes alot of original guns that would never handle the pressure of an uploaded .45. The +P rounds they have out are specifically restricted to large frame revovlers of modern design that can handle the pressures generated.
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the military specs for both rounds are essentially the same.
It is true that you can load the 45 colt (no such thing as a "long colt") to much higher levels... or, that their are guns that are much stronger built for heavy 45 colt loads but... using factory ammo... they are about the same..
the 45 acp simply duplicated the old 45 colt black powder round balistics. 45 colt will normally use a 250 grain slug at about 750-800 fps... 45 acp will run a 230 at about 800-850
grunz HK 45 is an ecellent firearm. very accurate and reliable.
I think I will go shooting today... got about 500 45 acp hollowpoints I havent busted into and the 44 mag rounds are piling up... gotta run some reloads through the chronograph too.
busy busy.. a twenty minute drive to my brothers and I need to see how the new flowmasters sound on the big block and give the new centerforce clutch a workout.
lazs
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And before you go using "factory ammo loads" as proof, you might want to consider that the modern smokeless powder loads in .45 LC are "loaded down" to be useable in old guns that weren't proofed for smokeless powder. Most boxes of "modern" .45 LC are designed for Cowboy shooters (like me) specifically to give velocities in the 750-850 fps range. The wide range of .45 LC revolvers includes alot of original guns that would never handle the pressure of an uploaded .45. The +P rounds they have out are specifically restricted to large frame revovlers of modern design that can handle the pressures generated.
Not even close sir. Most factory 45lc are not designed for cowboy shooters and or the old black powder SSA's. My family owns two gunstores. We sell case after case of the dirt cheap 45LC that is meant for cowboy action shooters. I reload for both, and no I'm not wrong, they are a world apart. Take the modern 45lc against the modern 45acp and there's nothing to compare besides bullet weight and diamiter. Velocity between the two is 4-500 fps faster with the lc.
Im not talking about black powder loads from 100 years ago.
You'll see so much variation in the LC because there is so much wasted space inside.
That is not always the case. Maybe reloaded with a faster burning powder yes. But when you load it with a slower burning powder alot of the space is taken up. Which is a good thing because it prevents detonation. Actions today like Ruger can take a ****load of presure. I've put loads through mine that make my teeth hurt when I shoot them.
Factory ammo today isn't just loaded for the SSA colt 45's. For you to say that and then claim to have reloaded for both and be a "gun guy"...
PS- If you would like, I can go right now and cronograph any factory 45acp and LC ammo you'd like just to show you.
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are you saying that factory 45 colt loads with the same bullet weights are 400-500 fps faster than 45 acp factory loads?
That is just.... wrong.
lazs
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Did I say factory there? Re-read what I wrote. It had to do with reloading both. No way in hell will you reload acp with a 225gr JHP at 1350fps and have the slide and frame hold up. But you can take any of the modern rugers and load the case with all the powder you can stuff in it and it will hold up day in and day out.
What' I'm saying is that to go and say the ACP is nearly identical to the LC is wrong. It's not close. Factory ammo between the two is almost 100fps faster. Take a 45 cal 230gr chunch of lead... That's a big difference. One I would not want to test with my chest.
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morph... you can reload the 45 colt to higher velocities than the 45 acp... it is not just the guns either... there are revolvers that will handle high pressure that will shoot the 45 acp... it is nothing to get a acp load with a 225 grain slug to go 1300 fps in a good smith or ruger revolver. that is not the point. you can get 45 colt to perform even better.
factor ammo for industry standards.... makes the 45 acp and 45 colt essentialy the same round. If you fired one of your reloads in an older 45 colt gun it would destroy it.
The 454 casul was developed with 45 colt cases and then lengthened to keep those high pressure loads out of old guns.... same was done for the 45 win mag ( a very hot 45 auto round).
You are correct that you have more choice with the 45 colt and can load to higher velocities if you are careful and use modern revolvers in good condition.
I see little point tho since accuracy is problematic with magnum type loads.... why bother? just shoot a 44 mag.
oh... and re read what you said... you did indeed say factory load. you said that not even factory loads do the two come close...
lazs
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good job trying to take it out of context.
I reload for both, and no I'm not wrong, they are a world apart. Take the modern 45lc against the modern 45acp and there's nothing to compare besides bullet weight and diamiter. Velocity between the two is 4-500 fps faster with the lc
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Originally posted by Blammo
If possible, can this thread just be left to the gun appriciating, second ammendment exercising crowd? Thanks!
The Truth About the Second Amendment
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
The Second Amendment is perhaps the most misunderstood of all provisions of the U.S. Constitution. Opponents of reasonable gun laws repeatedly argue that gun safety regulations run afoul of Second Amendment rights. In truth, however, no gun law in this country has been overturned on the basis of the Second Amendment. Rather, the U.S. Supreme Court and an overwhelming majority of federal appellate courts in this country have held that the Second Amendment protects only a right to keep and bear arms in furtherance of a well-regulated militia.
The public's common misunderstanding of the Second Amendment has been engendered, in large part, by a campaign of misinformation supported by those opposed to common sense gun laws. As former Chief Justice Warren Burger said, "[The Second Amendment] has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, repeat the word 'fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."
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Originally posted by Timofei
protects only a right to keep and bear arms in furtherance of a well-regulated militia.
You have a common misunderstanding of the meaning of "militia".
From the U.S. Code:
TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 Prev | Next
§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
Release date: 2005-07-12
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
You're welcome.
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little timmy is starting to sound very much like a shade account. Talks about something he doesn't do, doesn't know much about but wants to tell others what they should do about it. A clone of beetle.
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Originally posted by Timofei
The Truth About the Second Amendment
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
The Second Amendment is perhaps the most misunderstood of all provisions of the U.S. Constitution. Opponents of reasonable gun laws repeatedly argue that gun safety regulations run afoul of Second Amendment rights. In truth, however, no gun law in this country has been overturned on the basis of the Second Amendment. Rather, the U.S. Supreme Court and an overwhelming majority of federal appellate courts in this country have held that the Second Amendment protects only a right to keep and bear arms in furtherance of a well-regulated militia.
The public's common misunderstanding of the Second Amendment has been engendered, in large part, by a campaign of misinformation supported by those opposed to common sense gun laws. As former Chief Justice Warren Burger said, "[The Second Amendment] has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, repeat the word 'fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."
REALLY HMMMMM...........
I think you better do some research pard!
I've seen the Supreme Court ruling that the 2nd amendment IS an individual right.
I've further seen the report done for the Congress and Senate the says the 2nd amendment IS an individual right.
NO I'm not going to look it up for you. Thinkin the information used for the quote above is from one of the anti-2nd amendment sites.
So do a little more work and you will see that elsewhere the actual TRUTH of recent legal and political rulings/occurances is ...... the 2nd amendment IS and individual right.
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If it wasen't for fear of lynching around here I would say throw out the .45 and go with the .357 sig.
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Originally posted by Timofei
reasonable gun laws ,gun safety regulations,common sense gun laws.
buzz words of the gunphobics.
we are going to protect you by taking away your guns, so you don't put your eye out.
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Uh, Timmy... appearently those people didn't pay very much attention in English (or History for that matter).
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Let's break it down...
"A well regulated Militia, being neccessary to the security of a free State,"
Okay, fair enough, a regulated militia is needed to secure the State from foreign aggressors. You do realise the constitution was written by men who had just fought a war against a tyrannical state militia.... right?
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
If it had anything to do with the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, wouldn't it say, "the right of the militia" ? It doesn't. It says the right of the people.
It's okay Timmy, you can rest assured that whatever I say is meaningless. I'm a criminal. Everytime I take my guns out of the safe and put them in the car for a trip to the range, I violate one of your "common sense" laws. Under any other circumstances it would be a legal activity, however, since I live a certain distance from a school that I can't see from my house (nor even drive past on the way out), I break a gun law.
Thanks for helping to criminalize my behavior. I appreciate it. :furious
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i'm going to split hairs, the constution does not say "State" with a captial S as in State of Ohio, it uses a small s, as in "state of freedom".
so when it says "free state" it means to live in freedom.
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Originally posted by john9001
...so when it says "free state" it means to live in freedom.
In your freedom:
In 2002, the most recent year for which data is available, nearly eight young people aged 19 and under were killed a day by a firearm in the United States. The scourge of gun violence frequently attacks the most helpless members of our society - our children. Consider these facts...
In 2002, 1,830 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 828 committed suicide with guns, and 167 died in unintentional shootings. A total of 2,893 young people were killed by firearms in the U.S., one every three hours.
Firearms are the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people 19 and under in the U.S.
The rate of firearm death of under 14-years-old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/
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Originally posted by Toad
You have a common misunderstanding of the meaning of "militia".
From the U.S. Code:
You're welcome.
Thats going to leave a mark lol.
Timmmaahhhh! Won't get it though.
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Originally posted by Timofei
In your freedom:
In 2002, the most recent year for which data is available, nearly eight young people aged 19 and under were killed a day by a firearm in the United States. The scourge of gun violence frequently attacks the most helpless members of our society - our children. Consider these facts...
In 2002, 1,830 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 828 committed suicide with guns, and 167 died in unintentional shootings. A total of 2,893 young people were killed by firearms in the U.S., one every three hours.
Firearms are the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people 19 and under in the U.S.
The rate of firearm death of under 14-years-old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/
Trusting the bradybunch on facts is like trusting any politician to tell the truth. Foolishness.
There are already all kinds of common sense gun laws on the books that aim to solve those problems. None work because guns are not the problem.
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There are already all kinds of common sense gun laws on the books that aim to solve those problems. None work because guns are not the problem.
[/SIZE]
Bingo.
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Originally posted by Timofei
In your freedom:
In 2002, the most recent year for which data is available, nearly eight young people aged 19 and under were killed a day by a firearm in the United States. The scourge of gun violence frequently attacks the most helpless members of our society - our children. Consider these facts...
In 2002, 1,830 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 828 committed suicide with guns, and 167 died in unintentional shootings. A total of 2,893 young people were killed by firearms in the U.S., one every three hours.
Firearms are the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people 19 and under in the U.S.
The rate of firearm death of under 14-years-old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/
"An armed society is a polite society."
Karaya
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1) Timmy, I asked you nicely to leave this thread alone. However, it appears that not only are you an ANTI-Gun Nut, but you are also rude. So...
2) If the intent of the second ammendment was, as you described it, then why didn't the authorities immediately round up every privately owned fire-arm in the nation after the ratification of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Not only did they not do so, but we have over 230 years of court decisions and laws affirming the right of the individual to own firearms. I mean, it would seem that if their intent was how you indicated, then they immediately reversed themselves and have sustained that reversal. But the truth is, because they were separating themselves from a power that regularly denied the individual the right to bear arms, they understood exactly what they were saying:
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
3) Just because you talk down to people (gun owners) like they are ignorant, hicks or completely uninformed does not make you right. All it really does is reveal the weakness of your arguement. You can make your case much better by just stating your position and supporting data. What makes it worse is that you did not even write the information in your last few posts yourself, but copied and pasted from anti-gun rhetoric....the internet equivalent of "What he said!"
4) If you really want to get into a statistics fight, I can certainly bring it. I mean, after all, if you are going to quote propoganda from the Brady group, you won't mind me citing facts from the NRA and other pro gun groups, will you? I really have no desire to do so, but if we want to go that route I, and others on this board, will be more than willing.
Look, this thread was not intended to be a pro/anti gun discussion. It was intended to get advice from people about what handgun they would recommend. If you would recommend none, why not just say so and be done? That would have been fine and then we could have just moved on. However, it is not enough for you to state your position, you have to try and force it upon an audience that has no interest in your view what-so-ever.
Why not start your own thread about how evil guns and gun owners are...oh wait, I know why...
BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO FREAKIN HEAR IT!
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What always puzzles me is this. Anti-Gun protesters inflict their BS on Law abiding Gun Owners as if we're criminals. However, they USUALLY are the one's with the "history".
Again, if you choose not to POSSESS A firearm, great. But keep your "thoughts" to yourself, you made you choice, now shut up and sit down.
Karaya
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timmy.... you realize that most of those "children" you are being duped into getting hysterical about are in the 17-19 year old bracket and allmost all have criminal records?
You do realize that right? No? well... read some.... educate yourself... don't just read one anti gun site.
You do feel kind of stupid for believing them now don't you?
As for the second.... did you ever wonder why.... if the militia is just the army.... why they even bothered to have a second amendment? I mean... you have an amendment to protect the right of the army to have guns?
come on timmy... even you must be feeling stupid about now.. That's gotta sound dumb even to you..
But... you can read the federalist papers and other articles that were written at the time if you really care what they had meant.
It is also true that no law has ever been passed based on the fact that gun rights are not individual rights... Even the supreme court ruled that it is an individual right.
It is true that we are violating the constitution second amendment rights with our illegal laws but.... hopefully it will come up again with these new supreme court justices.
lazs
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Oh yeah... the .357 sig seems like a pretty good idea. I just don't want to reload for it.
lazs
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The thing is guys, we know we're right. Its our right to own, carry and use a firearm within the limits of the law. Which includes the right to deffend our lives and the lives of our loved ones. We know this is our right. Those like timmay chose to; for whatever reason, give up those rights. He beleives in his own mind that he was just and morally correct in doing so. Nothing you say, show him or do will sway him from his belief that guns are bad and guns are the problem. Basicly, you should just ignore him. Because he is one of a hundred million dead horses who can't be beat.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The thing is guys, we know we're right. Its our right to own, carry and use a firearm within the limits of the law. Which includes the right to deffend our lives and the lives of our loved ones. We know this is our right. Those like timmay chose to; for whatever reason, give up those rights. He beleives in his own mind that he was just and morally correct in doing so. Nothing you say, show him or do will sway him from his belief that guns are bad and guns are the problem. Basicly, you should just ignore him. Because he is one of a hundred million dead horses who can't be beat.
Sounds like he should move to england and be a good little subject. :D
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This will be my next gun purchase:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-45acp.shtml
(http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/45acp/gun/5RBLarge.jpg)
13+1 rounds of .45 acp goodness! Yum! I'm holding out for the 5 inch version, should be available in a few months.
g00b
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Originally posted by Timofei
In your freedom:
In 2002, the most recent year for which data is available, nearly eight young people aged 19 and under were killed a day by a firearm in the United States. The scourge of gun violence frequently attacks the most helpless members of our society - our children. Consider these facts...
In 2002, 1,830 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 828 committed suicide with guns, and 167 died in unintentional shootings. A total of 2,893 young people were killed by firearms in the U.S., one every three hours.
Firearms are the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people 19 and under in the U.S.
The rate of firearm death of under 14-years-old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/
What the above does not tell you is how many of those are GANG members.
A very large number of those deaths among young people is just that.
They used to have one up there that claimed the killer and the dead knew each other. Sure GANG bangers KNOW who other GANG bangers are. They tried to say someone you knew was gonna kill you. MISLEADING!
The claim about being the 2nd leading cause of death after auto accidents is misleading. THE leading cause of death in this country among all ages is medical malpractice/mistake/misadventure. HOSPITALS and Doctors are very dangerous it seems. They get tired, over worked, rushed, etc. accidents happen.
So you wanna ban hospitals? Doctors? Medical staff and such personel?
You wanna ban automobiles?
PLEASE DO MORE RESEARCH! Look at both sides, and think about it before you make an opinion. It helps allot.
Guns have been banned in England, Canada, and Australia and the reports are the muder rate in those countries is steadily climbing.
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Originally posted by g00b
This will be my next gun purchase:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-45acp.shtml
(http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/45acp/gun/5RBLarge.jpg)
13+1 rounds of .45 acp goodness! Yum! I'm holding out for the 5 inch version, should be available in a few months.
g00b
Kewl choice. :) Good Croatian gun!
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You guys are probly right on the plastic high capacity double action pistols thing but...
I am old fashioned... I went plinking with my brother yesterday... I brought the guns I shoot the most.... My cut down 44 mag redhawk and my 45 kimber... both are new versions of very old tech and both are utterly reliable. Man... when that 250 grain 44 slug hits the bank it really throws some mud around!
Both guns are accurate and the 44 will hit stuff at ranges that shock modern plastic gun owners who have never shot past about 50 yards..
Best of all.... they both look good to me and fit my hand well. They are solid, fun guns that are easy to shoot and load for. Both shoot lead bullets just as well as jacketed.
I also have a 12 oz .357 j frame that is very good at what it is for.
I think timmie is from england tho guys.. england has a real hard envy thing going on the whole gun thing.... if they can't have em....
lazs
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That 340PD 357 is something else lazs - very fun. :)
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grun... you are the only person who has ever said the 340pd was "fun".
most who have shot it lose the color in their faces when I mention the gun.
grun fired a half a box of federal 125 hp's through the damn thing.... go figure...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
You guys are probly right on the plastic high capacity double action pistols thing but...
I am old fashioned... I went plinking with my brother yesterday... I brought the guns I shoot the most.... My cut down 44 mag redhawk and my 45 kimber... both are new versions of very old tech and both are utterly reliable. Man... when that 250 grain 44 slug hits the bank it really throws some mud around!
Both guns are accurate and the 44 will hit stuff at ranges that shock modern plastic gun owners who have never shot past about 50 yards..
Best of all.... they both look good to me and fit my hand well. They are solid, fun guns that are easy to shoot and load for. Both shoot lead bullets just as well as jacketed.
I also have a 12 oz .357 j frame that is very good at what it is for.
I think timmie is from england tho guys.. england has a real hard envy thing going on the whole gun thing.... if they can't have em....
lazs
44 mag is a great choice, would be my 2nd choice. Extremely powerful, accurate and reliable. The only reason I'm picking the XD over a 44 mag is more then double the ammo capacity and the ammo is much cheaper.
357 just doesn't do it for me for some reason. Doesn't have anything on a .45 acp that I can see, they are both around 500fpe. 44 mag on the other hand can push close to 1000fpe!
Yes a 44 truly can "blow your head clean off". :aok
g00b
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Originally posted by lazs2
You guys are probly right on the plastic high capacity double action pistols thing but...
I am old fashioned... I went plinking with my brother yesterday... I brought the guns I shoot the most.... My cut down 44 mag redhawk and my 45 kimber... both are new versions of very old tech and both are utterly reliable. Man... when that 250 grain 44 slug hits the bank it really throws some mud around!
Both guns are accurate and the 44 will hit stuff at ranges that shock modern plastic gun owners who have never shot past about 50 yards..
Best of all.... they both look good to me and fit my hand well. They are solid, fun guns that are easy to shoot and load for. Both shoot lead bullets just as well as jacketed.
I also have a 12 oz .357 j frame that is very good at what it is for.
I think timmie is from england tho guys.. england has a real hard envy thing going on the whole gun thing.... if they can't have em....
lazs
Hmmm I've hit hanging targets out to 100 yds with both a Colt Commander and a Springfield Trophy Match. Kinda funny though. Shoot wait for it wait for it CLANG! :lol
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For the person that thinks the 2nd Amendment doesn't mean what it says here is a little tidbit................
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/032006/03122006/173743
There is allot of information out there that is based on FACT and not deception!
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You said the purpose is defense, it that for concealed carry on a regular basis or more for home-defense?
The 125gr .357mag round is far above any other cartridge for it's record of "one shot stops". There is also nothing more simple, fail-proof, and relaible than a revolver. For concealed carry duty I use a SP101, it carries five shots of full-power .357s in about the smalles form-factor available. The problem with a .357 revolver that is small enough for easy concealment in all weather is that it will not be suitable as a pleasure weapon, that little sucker kicks like a mule. I use .38+P for practise to mitigate that "feature".
The same is true for the .45ACP but to a lesser extent. Even the smallest .45ACP semi-auto is somewhat problematic for concealment and comfort, particularly for summer and folks who do not have a large body mass. If you really want to carry a semi-auto pistol then the .40SW is a good alternative to the 9mm. It sorta fills in right between the .45 and the nine as far as delivering foot-pounds to your threat. But for a nice small package that can hide under a T-shirt the 9mm is hard to beat, and it certainly carries enough power to keep you alive if you shoot well. If you cannot shoot well enough to guarantee that then even the .454-Casull wont cut it.
If concealment is not an issue and you are looking for home defense your shotgun is hard to beat but there's a vociferous crowd who like the CAR-15 or M4gery for such duty. With the use of frangible bullets they have been demonstrated to be less penetrative than 00-buck.
ETA: Goob, you are right in your assesment of the power delivery capacity of the .44mag versus the .357mag, but studies show that for thin skinned game it is actually OVER penetrative, simple truth is most of the energy gets delivered downrange of the target rather than into it. In fact the same is true for the .45ACP since the .38SW has a better one shot stop record than the .45ACP, there seems to be something about the 125gr .357 that causes an explosive effect to the bullet while the big 230gr bullets just blow right on through.
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I can't carry anything other than a 1911. Its heavier and bigger than most of my other carry guns but I like knowing its there and to be honest I have gotten use to the weight of it. I carried around an S&W 340PD for a week or two. It was really nice and comfortable to carry, but like my tiny little cell phone I had to have, I felt like I was going to lose the dam thing.
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morph... did you try some of the front pocket holsters for J frames? they fit the pocket and are "sticky" on the outside... and slick on the inside... the holster stays in the pocket and keeps the gun butt up...
44 mag has the energy and some say... overpenetration... that is true because it is a hunting round pretty much... some of the newer bullets like the hydro shock are making the 44 a very nasty round... I like that you can shoot through car doors and glass with it too.
wrag... I have hit stuff out to 200 yards with a 45 acp but.... it is a rainbow trajectory and.... if you can't see the bullet strike you have no idea how much to hold up...
At 400 yards... all the front sight is used and you are aiming at a cloud and still dropping 20 ft short.
With a 44 you can still see what you are aiming at.
I guess where I am at is.... I like guns and I reload out of fun and to make it cheaper to shoot. I also am a believer that I am well armed with a single action revolver of 1800's tech... it just isn't that important to me...
double and tripple taps in .123456 of a sec and a lot of the "training" is superflourous when compared to the will to win and taking your time quickly in my opinion... hitting something good with a decent caliber is everything.
hell... if speed and spray were all that matters... A single action revolver is the fastest out of the holster and for the first shot... No auto can beat a double action revolver for speed of firing either..
I don't think those microseconds are that important tho nor, is 30 round capacity in most cases... every real life gunfight I ever read about boiled down to aiming the gun and getting one good hit in.
lazs
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every real life gunfight I ever read about boiled down to aiming the gun and getting one good hit in.
that's the rub... always will be. when yer mind is screaming like a woman, yer heart is pumping mass quantities of adrenaline and yer eyes are wider than opras ass.. it's hard to hit a damn thing with a pistol for some reason.
Just fer funzies, do what I did with a guy that thought he wuz the shiznit with his 9mm. We ran back from the 25 yard target; picked our pieces up, turned and fired out a mag. Neither one of us hit once.
Did the same thing with a Rifle.. we were on the target and getting hits immediately.
Which lends serious credence to the old adage 'a pistol is what you use to fight your way to your rifle'. If yer ever headed for a situtaion where gunplay may be involved, holster the pistol, get the rife up and on the ready. Hit first. Game over.
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I ended up going with a soft inside the pants holster and will probably carry it in the summer when its hot out and I have shorts and T-shirt.
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hang.. you have a point. if you have a rifle and it is functional or you can make it instantly functional or your target is a long way off.... use the rifle.. if all you got is a handgun and you know how to use it...
lots of people have been killed by handguns... even with a rifle I would want to carry a handgun too. I find that if I take my time I might get 2 shots out of my 44 mag while the autoloaders are getting 6 or 7 at that 25 yard target (probly a can) but... I will hit it and they won't... in fact... they are probly shooting over the bank and being dangerous...
I have also seen people miss with rifles....I know in wars that people miss with rifles from allmost point blank range.
I guess the point is to know your gun and at what ranges you can hit with it at how fast.
lazs
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For "serious" purposes, an hand gun, of any type, is a close quarters weapon. It has advantages in close situations or confined areas that a rifle can't properly address. Once the range opens up to beyond 20 yards the rifle becomes king.
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I think the reason we did better with rifles in a stressed body shoot is just the 'dampening' effect the 7-10 pound weight and the ability to 'pocket' the stock against a part of yer body that ain't pulsating and twitching from all the adrenaline. Sad reality is I just couldn't steady up in an extended arm pistol stance well enough to get on the paper at 25 yards.
bein old sucks. :(
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Just dont go anywhere you need a concealed weapon and your problem is solved. :D
While this issue of best weapon etc, has been argued a million times, the one good point is this, the only good handgun is the one you can shoot accurately in a hurry. The real killing power of a weapon is all about bullet placement.
Revolvers can jam, and they do. They are slower to reload. Virtually non-existant in any military force today, and they are people who make a living with firearms. Colt has stopped making them altogether, other manufacturers will follow.
Do those sound like selling points? Not really.
Autos have gained in acceptance and are practially the only weapon used by both military and police depts today. They dont make a choice of weapons lightly. The overwhelming majority of competitive pistol shooters also use semi-auto pistols exclusively.
They hold more ammo, reload quicker, and the semi-auto action help absorb recoil. The average shooter can fire them faster if needed.
Do those sound more like selling points? Yep.
Large bore calibers are good for stopping power, cross sectional density is as important as velocity. The major pistol makers all make good weapons. Basically, make your choice on what appeals to you, and you might use as a reference those comments from shooters who really like thier weapons.
More important than anything else is whenever you make your choice and buy your pistol, practice until you are comfortable and confident in it.
good luck,
dago
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Originally posted by Edbert
You said the purpose is defense, it that for concealed carry on a regular basis or more for home-defense?
The 125gr .357mag round is far above any other cartridge for it's record of "one shot stops". There is also nothing more simple, fail-proof, and relaible than a revolver. For concealed carry duty I use a SP101, it carries five shots of full-power .357s in about the smalles form-factor available. The problem with a .357 revolver that is small enough for easy concealment in all weather is that it will not be suitable as a pleasure weapon, that little sucker kicks like a mule. I use .38+P for practise to mitigate that "feature".
ETA: Goob, you are right in your assesment of the power delivery capacity of the .44mag versus the .357mag, but studies show that for thin skinned game it is actually OVER penetrative, simple truth is most of the energy gets delivered downrange of the target rather than into it. In fact the same is true for the .45ACP since the .38SW has a better one shot stop record than the .45ACP, there seems to be something about the 125gr .357 that causes an explosive effect to the bullet while the big 230gr bullets just blow right on through.
Actually the .357 will go through about 18-19 inches of ballistic gelatin, while the .45 will go about 10-12". You switched the two. That .357 round is travelling at around 1250-1300fps, as opposed to 850-950fps with a 230gr. The .45 round is 50% larger than a .38 round. The .45 round will bulldoze more tissue than the .38 will. This is the good thing about the 45 round.
The problem with the "hot rounds" (45 EXCLUDED), is you need to be more conscious of what is BEHIND the perp.
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dago... smith is making more revolvers than ever. so is taurus and ruger.
being high capacity and fast to reload may or may not be an advantage. 30 years ago the average gunfight lasted 1.7 rounds... now it is up to about 7-9 with a lot of innocents being hit.
an advantage would be the person with the revfolver or auto that knew how to use it vs the guy with either who didn't know how to use it.
Anyone who has shot handguns for many years has learned that the revolver will fire and the auto may or may not. No self defense course I know of doesn't teach clearing a jam from autos... no course ever finishes without a few of the guys having jams with their autos.
Nothing wrong with that.... autos are great for people who don't want to or can't learn a revolver.
for all around use and for reloading and if you could only have one handgun... the wheelgun is still king.
oh.... a shrouded j frame .357 can be fired 5 times in a row from inside your pocket.... try that with an auto.... and how bout them 300 yard steel rams eh? Oh.... and dago...
don't forget to police that brass ya hear?
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sounds like he should move to england and be a good little subject. :D
I don`t think Timmy has realized that Lassie has came home and is peeing on his shoes.
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actually, lassie pushed timmy into the well and then emigrated to australia.
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I like my Sig/Sauer 9 mm quite a lot. After thousands of rounds it has never jammed on me. If I were to get a .45, it would more than likely be a P220. In addition to the overall high quality I like the way the safety mechanism works. Just pick it up and start shooting. No safety lever to flick. Just like a revolver in that respect.
I've tried the Glock and while a cut above most, I didn't care for it. Both 9 mm and .45 have jammed on me a couple of times. And before anyone says something, yes, I was shooting correctly with my wrist locked and braced. A fact which caused the observing factory representative some embarrassment. It was a simple failure to come to battery each time. No stove pipes or anything like that. A simple slap on the side of the gun clicked it in place. My rule on these matters is simple. Every time I pull the trigger the gun must fire as long as there is ammunition in the gun. If it fails once and maintenance is not at fault, the gun is useless to me.
The H&K cannot be argued with for quality and the hexagonal barrel is interesting. My personal taste didn't accommodate the grip safety mechanism.
The .45 has a well deserved reputation for stopping power and the .44 magnum has a ton of it. I've never cared for the .357 magnum despite its power. My feeling has always been it is an over penetrating round more prone to go through a body without dumping its energy. The .45 and .44 magnum have more of a tendency to stop within the body, dumping all or most of their energy into damage. I look at the .357 as more of a slender blade being thrust and the other two as a cross between an axe and a sledge hammer in terms of stopping power.
If I were in your situation, I'd go for a S&W .44 magnum revolver. It is good quality and one of the most accurate guns I've ever fired. There's also the inherent reliability of a revolver. Police officers have told me most gun fights are over after 3 rounds have been fired and if you hit with a .44, it's game over right there.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The thing is guys, we know we're right.
Yep, buy a gun. Feel safer now ?. No ?
Go and buy one more. Because you must be right.:rolleyes:
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Revolvers can jam, and they do. They are slower to reload. Virtually non-existant in any military force today, and they are people who make a living with firearms. Colt has stopped making them altogether, other manufacturers will follow.
Funny, I've never had a revolver jam on me. I've never seen a revolver jam. I've never ever heard from any of my gun owning friends that they had a revolver jam on them, or seen one jam.
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Originally posted by Timofei
Timmmaaaaaagh ?. timah! ?
Tim TiMAAAGHGH Timmmmaaaaaaahhhh!.:rolleyes:
You really are like TIMMAAAAGH from south park, just not as smart or funny.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, I've never had a revolver jam on me. I've never seen a revolver jam. I've never ever heard from any of my gun owning friends that they had a revolver jam on them, or seen one jam.
Revolvers can and do jam. The causes are wear and/or poor maintenance. Usually the wear situation appears in brands of questionable quality. When maintenance is the issue, it's always very poor maintenance. Leave the gun out in the rain to rust or don't clean the mud off it type of poor maintenance. Pistols are far more susceptible to these phenomena. Revolvers overall are extremely reliable.
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I have had a ruger singlesix Jam on me with some HOT homeloaded .357, the cases backed out of the cylinder just a little making it so it could not rotate.
Never had factory ammo do this.
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jams... Ok, let's leave out worn out or rusted guns or ones that you just pulled out of a barrel of quicksand and fast setting resin..
let's leave out hot handloads that would blow an autoshuckers slide 3" into your forehead.... and.... lets leave out such oddities as the smith 22 jet revolver or 30 carbine single action...
what is left is... both revolvers and autos no matter how good a quality... are at the mercy of the ammo they are loaded up with... in an auto... that means a dud and the old rack and tap drill... in a revolver than means... pull the trigger again.
lazs
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Worn and rusted guns? My most trusted revolver is one that was literally covered in rust and pitting. After cleaning it, I've never had a jam, misfire, whathaveyou. The gun itself was at least 50 years old, but had been left to rust in a briefcase for 35.
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Originally posted by Timofei
Yep, buy a gun. Feel safer now ?. No ?
Go and buy one more. Because you must be right.:rolleyes:
Yes I have bought gunS. Because of the types of people i've seen and known during my life, YES I feel safer.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, I've never had a revolver jam on me. I've never seen a revolver jam. I've never ever heard from any of my gun owning friends that they had a revolver jam on them, or seen one jam.
Hmmm.......
Hot reload, very hot! Primer backed out. Some reloaders when they 1st start reloading don't always seat the primer properly and this can and does result in a jam.
This can also occur with autos. A primer improperly seated can create problems.
A bullet improperly seated/crimped can also result in a jam. Some bullets require a tapper type crimp. Others require a rolled type crimp.
The bullet can slide forward or backward and jam either an auto or a revolver.
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GTO...I've loaded seome really hot .357s, but there isn't much room in the case for getting too crazy, even with hot powders. I sorta settle on Hogdgon H110 which is usually recommended for the bigger magnums for my "+P@.357s". You didn't mix your rifle powders up with pistol loads now did ya? Just kidding.
Karaya...I have seen the .357 not even exit a whitetail when it hit a rib on entrance. The 125gr bullet penetrates much less than the more normal 158gr does (I'm assuming the 158gr caused the 18-19 inch cavity you mentioned?), it is pretty much a frangible if it hits anything like bone.
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For Tim.....
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens
Try doing a google search on Nazi Gun Control :O
it makes for some interesting reading
I'll stick with the Founding Fathers and keep my guns thank you
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From a Taurus revolver manual:
While shooting any revolver, a cartridge case may
occasionally become jammed against the breech face, impairing the ability of
the cylinder to turn freely. Clear the jam as follows, WHILE KEEPING THE
MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION AND THE FINGERS WELL
CLEAR OF THE TRIGGER: push the cylinder release and attempt to open
the cylinder. If the cylinder swings open, eject all cartridges and spent cases.
Inspect the cartridges and the breech before resuming shooting. Inspect the
cylinder and breech face before resuming shooting.
Revolvers are most complex, and on average have twice the number of parts as an auto. They do jam, and are not any easier to clear than an auto.
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i have another gun question: why arent all assault rifles in the bullpup configuration?
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Originally posted by Edbert
Karaya...I have seen the .357 not even exit a whitetail when it hit a rib on entrance. The 125gr bullet penetrates much less than the more normal 158gr does (I'm assuming the 158gr caused the 18-19 inch cavity you mentioned?), it is pretty much a frangible if it hits anything like bone.
My bad. I got the two crossed, without Googling, was going on memory.
Karaya
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Originally posted by lazs2
an advantage would be the person with the revfolver or auto that knew how to use it vs the guy with either who didn't know how to use it.
Anyone who has shot handguns for many years has learned that the revolver will fire and the auto may or may not. No self defense course I know of doesn't teach clearing a jam from autos... no course ever finishes without a few of the guys having jams with their autos.
lazs
For qualifications when I worked for Michigan National Bank. A fellow guard had a .357 (shooting .38). The revolver failed to fire often. My .38 never had an issue and I went back to it after we "changed to Berettas".
I'm just saying I have seen Revolers NOT FIRE after 10+ pulls of the trigger. The sear needed adjusting.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Timofei
Yep, buy a gun. Feel safer now ?. No ?
Go and buy one more. Because you must be right.:rolleyes:
Thing is, we can Pistol Whip you, but you can't.
Karaya
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Worn and rusted guns? My most trusted revolver is one that was literally covered in rust and pitting. After cleaning it, I've never had a jam, misfire, whathaveyou. The gun itself was at least 50 years old, but had been left to rust in a briefcase for 35.
Yes, but you did clean it, didn't you? Scraped off the rust, oiled it up and got it in shooting condition. That represents maintenance and therefore does not fall within the parameters of the examples I offered. Revolvers are extremely reliable.
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ok... a worn sear will not cause a gun to not fire.... the sear is the same on an auto or a revolver... a worn sear on an auto will probly cause the gun to double (or more) fire... on a revolver... it may make the gun have a very light trigger relaease or even keep it from staying fully cocked.
You may have been talking about a worn or broken fireing pin... Autos of course are far more prone to this than revolvers but it does happen and no gun with a broken fireing pin can be "cleared".... it is out of action.
dago... have you read the manual for semi autos? every single one of em talks of jams.. all kinda jams. some jams that autos get can put the gun out of action till you get it to a gunsmith.
Revolvers are much more reliable. for the simple reason that... a bad round is the cause for a firearm to not fire 99% of the time...with a wheelgun you just go on to the next.... a burst case (bad case) will make you go on to the next one (another pull of the trigger) in a revolver but you may not be able to get the slide back or the stuck case out in an auto.
If you are going to live in a trench in the mud and no nothing about firearms then ssome autos are better than the majority of revolvers.
sorry you don't like revolvers but I think you are just limiting yourself for no good reason. Revolvers do some things even today that are impossible for semi autos to do.
and.... police up that brass now... ya hear?
lazs
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
i have another gun question: why arent all assault rifles in the bullpup configuration?
There's a common misconception regarding the 'assault rifle'.. yah ready for this???
... it ain't a 'rifle'. (it's a carbine) In fact, it's not even an assault weapon as virtually all sold into civilian hands are not fully automatic.
But.. if by main 'feature' relative to 'bullpup' you mean a heavy barrel, 18" long then the answer is round velocity and accuracy. The 'heavy barrel' reduces barrel harmonics, enhances accuracy sacraficed by the short barrel selection. (shorter barrels = lower muzzel velocity = reduced accurate range & stopping power).
Some years ago somebody noticed that with hot loads and high speed rounds the heavy thick walled barrels offered longer barrel life and improved repeatable accuracy as the weapon got hot...the American 'Varmit' rifles. The Aussies and the Israeli's equipped their FAL's with 'heavy barrels' on the full auto versions of their true[/b] assault rifes (24" barrel, 11 pounds, full auto .308) and putting them into the traditional role of the BAR. Prior to that the Finns married up their own very heavy barrels with captured Russian Mosin Nagant receivers and combined with a carefully armorer prepared heavy stock the result was the most accurate bolt rifle of WWII.. the M-39.
Nowadays, .223 carbines like the Colt AR-15 and it's many, many clones are benefiting from the 'bullpup' heavy barrel.. longer barrel life, improved accuracy when 'hot', and the added weight actually reduces felt recoil.. as if the lil carbines actually had anything approching the recoil of a true battle rifle. ;) Should be noted that a 'bullpup' carbine is capable of maintaining the same volume of fire (in terms of rounds fired over time) of it's big battle rifle brother, but it still has not the reach or punch of a real 7.62x51 (.308) battle rifle.
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Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that "bullpup" refers not to barrel and weight specs, but to the placement of the trigger group well forward of the action, and the action located well back into a short stock.
I think the arrangement is designed to improve on the carbine concept by not limiting them to just a shortened barrel and stock. The reconfigure allows one to get the much shorter overall carbine length, while still maximizing barrel length.
As for why there are not more weapons of this configuration, I can't say with authority, but I'd hazard the following guess;
Bullpups do in fact, as Hang pointed out, have shorter carbine-length @18" barrels, whereas battle rifles typically have 22"-24"+ barrels for improved range and accuracy. Bullpups therefore have a place wherever a shorter, carbine style weapon would be appropriate, i.e...some special forces applications, some airborne applications, tank crews, etc... OTOH, don't forget how powerfully tradition influences arming choices for miltary services.
Didn't a large military just equip with bullpups, somewhere? The ANZACS perhaps? I don't recall precisely...anybody know for sure?
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^^^^
Thanks!!
See, I learned something!
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All you wanted to know about Bullpup design ...........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup
They also make conversion kits for some rifles. I remember reading one on an AK conversion, it wasnt real popular IIRC. I'll try to dig up the link.
*Edit
Here's a company that offers the conversions for some limited rifles. Ruger 10/22 is a common enough rifle, you can see the difference. You'll have to live with the cruddy trigger pull, but it looks neat.
http://www.bullpupgunstocks.com/
**Edit
Duh, had to dig about 30 seconds more in my links to find it. He goes into pretty good detail on the problems with converting the gun in the first place, and then the problems you face using it in the bullpup configuration. Good read.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/kvargrunt.html
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laz,
dago... have you read the manual for semi autos? every single one of em talks of jams.. all kinda jams. some jams that autos get can put the gun out of action till you get it to a gunsmith.
Have your heard me say autos dont jam? Properly maintained ones, with decent magazines very rarely do.
But....
I posted the quote from the Taurus manual because too many wheelheads are trying to say revolvers never jam. They do.
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I really like that signature, Dago.
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Me too. Copycat. LOL :)
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there are 7 countries that i know for sure use bullpup assalt rifles: Great Britain (L85A1), Austria (Steyr Stg.77), Singapore (SAR-21), France (FAMAS G2), Ukraine (Vepr), China (QBZ-95) and South Africa (CR-21).