Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fd ski on October 16, 2001, 10:21:00 AM
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Posted on AGW by cmos:
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/10/14/stiusausa03007.html? (http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/10/14/stiusausa03007.html?)
Absolutelly excellent read.
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Oh yes, of course, its OUR fault, we "Americanized them". :rolleyes:
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Nothing will be solved by quoting the Koran. You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle
But just what constitutes a struggle? the vagueness is a door, in the minds of the alqueda the very existance of the western way of life is considered an attack even if we didnt do ANYTHING against them they would still totally hate us..
because when they look over here and see a street that has a Cathlic chruch, then a black further down a Muslim one, then another block down an Jewish Temple. they dont see freedom of religion, the see a socity that condones and encourages the worshipping of false gods... they see our wealth and prosparity not as achievments, but as usless decadence.. etc etc.. etc
its just their little twisted skew on things, and aside from ceasing to exist there isnt a thing we can do to make the see us in any different light.
so... well, screw em :D
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good article but...
the answer is????
"Arabs feel that they are under siege from the modern world and that the US symbolises this world. Every action America takes gets magnified a thousandfold. And even when we do not act, the rumours of its gigantic powers and nefarious deeds still spread. Most Americans would not believe how common the rumour is throughout the Arab world that the CIA or Israel's Mossad blew up the World Trade Center to justify attacks on Arabs and Muslims. This is the culture from which the suicide bombers have come."
they are going to hate us no matter what we do.
as someone stated last night, if you can't contain evil, you have to destroy it.
seems to me to be the beginning of a war veiled in religious beliefs. one that common sense will not matter as fanatics screaming from their caves will direct the "true believers" to their Allahhh. What else do they have to do? What do they have to lose? Dying, in their mind, for a rightous cause is better than sitting around picking camels ticks off ya...
What gets me is the silence of the leaders of the Muslim faith. Why are they not screaming from the highest pulpit denouncing the terrorist actions? In their silence is their real message.
...if you can't contain evil, you have to destroy it. As of 9/11/2001 it's proven we cannot contain it any longer.
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Quite a lot of words but little or no message and explanation.
The only reason to hate the US in this article is the ineptitude of the arabic world to climb out of the feudal state of mind they have had for quite some time.
The use of religion to continue to control a population that is stagnated maintains the control without the population even realising it. It is a ploy to keep their own people in servitude and maintain the status quo because they lack the imagination, will and intelligence to "evolve" their own society.
This article actually serves no purpose other than taking up copy space. There are no real insights, new or otherwise in it.
Mav
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Worr, if you're reading this, in regards to our converation last thursday - you were right, i was wrong.
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this is the problem:
(http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/10/14/STR140102.150x195.jpg?)
they are taught to hate America as soon as they learn how to tie their shoes. Generations do not expand past the ignorance of their previous ones. I bet most of you are not as prejudice as your father or grandfather or great grandfather. Maybe even a little more enlighten too. Why, because we have evolved with each gen.
When hate is instilled at such a young age it is improbable if not impossible to remove it. I bet if you took 10 - 5 year kids from the area, they'd state they hate us but would not have a clue as why .... the same ones that at 18 will strap a bomb on their arse and blow you and I to kingdom come given the 1st opportunity.
Praise Allah!
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Worr, if you're reading this, in regards to our converation last thursday - you were right, i was wrong.
They need more context, fd ski. I think AGW has far outpaced them in the political discussion...and we and I actually "worked" some things through.
There is always a "timing" to such discussions.
Worr, out
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Incisive article, fd ski. Thank you for posting it :)
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I find some errant thoughts and statements in this article.
"The immediate reaction to the murder of 5,000 innocents was anger, not analysis.
Oh? Anger that took weeks to turn into retaliation? No, analysis was in the front of most of our minds as I saw it.
"But there are billions of poor and weak and oppressed people around the world. They don't turn planes into bombs.
No, but then the "Poor" are not able to are they?
The statement that they hate us because they are poor and we are rich, is in itself a huge error. It was not the "Poor" Afgans who flew into the WTC, it was a successful and wealthy Engineer and friends who were funded by one of the "Richest" organizations the world.
It is interesting that Mr. Fareed Zakaria uses ignores this information to set the roots for such an article.
Viper
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Arab relations with the West just took a turn for the worse:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html)
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Originally posted by popeye:
Arab relations with the West just took a turn for the worse:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html)
yep, it sure did. Wasn't this guy going to retire or something? If so, the palestines would have been better off letting him do that than make a martyr and a cause out of the guy. just more PLO toejame stirring ...
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I agree with Mav.
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yep, it sure did. Wasn't this guy going to retire or something? If so, the palestines would have been better off letting him do that than make a martyr and a cause out of the guy. just more PLO toejame stirring ...
The PFLP carried out the assasination, in revenge for the Israeli killing of their leader, Abu Ali Mustafa, at the end of August.
Palestinian sources say Abu Ali Mustafa died when at least two missiles struck his office in the West Bank town of Ramallah, not far from the offices of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Israeli military forces confirmed that they had carried out the attack, saying the missiles were fired by a helicopter gunship.
Mustafa is the highest-ranking Palestinian official to be assassinated by the Israelis since the start of the 11-month Palestinian uprising.
The Palestinian Authority has declared three days of national mourning for Abu Ali Mustafa, while vows of revenge came from the PFLP's Damascus headquarters and from the militant Islamic group Hamas, which called the attack a declaration of war.
Rabah Muhana, a political leader of the PFLP, told Reuters news agency: "We will seek to target and harm Israeli criminal leaders to respond to the assassination of Abu Ali Mustafa and to block further Israeli attacks on Palestinian leaders. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1511000/1511515.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1511000/1511515.stm)
More Israeli toejam stirring?
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I read an article somewhere...apparently they wired in the phone call to his office via the Helo headphones, so when he picked up the phone and answered (Confirming his presence in the office) the Helo pilots unleashed the rockets.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
More Israeli toejam stirring?
Yea I know why they did it. Abu Ali Mustafa was a real peace loving guy. Real crime he got his. Sounds like the same thing we are trying to do to ole Bin and his gang.
Guess it depends on who you'd sit down to dinner with? A group which screams everyday for your death, the death of your family and all of your countrymen or those that seem to hold many of the same values you and your (most) of your countrymen do. Can't see how anyone still supports a bunch of screaming terrorist whose only goal is to eliminate those that don't agree with them twisting their faith to fit their needs.
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And the Israelis are a real peace loving people? Not if you're a Palestinian.
Just about every senior politician in Israel has their terrorist past. Sharon would be a war criminal with an international arrest warrant for his complicity in Shabra and Shatila, if he wasn't Israeli, and therefore an ally.
You might feel comfortable sitting down to dinner with people who murder their opponents, with the leaders of the only country in the world to officially sanction torture of prisoners, with men like Rehavam Zeevi who has described the Palestinians as "lice", and called for their deportation from the country they were born in. I wouldn't.
Zeevi would have been lablled a Nazi if he was anything but Jewish, and any government which included him ostracised (remember the fuss over Haider in Austria?)
A lot of innocent Israelis have died at the hands of Palestinian terrorists, Zeevi wasn't one of them.
A lot of innocent Palestinians have died at the hands of Israeli terrorists, and more will die as a result of Zeevi's death.
There will never be peace in the region, or an end to Arab terrorism worldwide, until Israel is prepared to make concessions to the Palestinians. Electing a man like Sharon shows they're not ready yet, and perhaps they never will be whilst they have a security guarantee from the US.
There will be distrust and resentment against the west in many Muslim societies for a long time to come, but Israel's actions are one of the root causes, and until Israel is prepared to come to terms with the Palestinians, that distrust and hatred will keep getting worse, not better.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
There will never be peace in the region, or an end to Arab terrorism worldwide, until Israel is prepared to make concessions to the Palestinians.
What kind of "concessions", mass suicide??
As I understand it, the crazy Palestinians, you know - the ones you see dancing and screaming in the streets, will not be satisfied until the last Israeli is dead. How would you suggest that demand be met? Everytime they (the Israeli's) to make a concession, get somewhere with a ceasefire - it is the wackos on Palestines side who screw it up, not the Israel. How do you work with a country who cannot or will not control its own crazies??
By the way, these are the same lovely individuals who want my family and I dead, so sorry I cannot side with them.
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Nashwan,
I saw you are totally anonomous on your profile. Guess you are unwilling to let anyone know your roots.
Mav
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I like anonymity, but since you seem to read something into it, my roots are:
born in Wales, UK, to Welsh parents, 50% Welsh/50% English grandparents.
Brought up in Wales and Yemen, where I learnt that most Arabs aren't screaming fanatics desperate to kill "infidels" (Christians and Jews are not infidels to Islam, as we believe in the same God)
Nonconformist Christian. I dislike organised religons because they tend to focus more on the organisation than the religon.
I hate terrorism in all it's forms.
I don't like people suffering, and I would like to see the world a better place, and I support military action where necessary.
I support the right of both Israel and Palestine to exist. To my mind, the only way that can work is with two seperate countries, and that can never work while Israel is expanding colonization of the West Bank and Gaza.
I believe Israel has to make the first move because they have the power, the Palestinians do not. Palesinians cannot give Israel anything, except an end to violence, and that will not come until there is an end to hatred. Any improvement for the Palestinians will lessen that hatred, but it will take many years to go totaly. At the moment almost all Palestinians support the violence against Israel. Give them a country of their own, and a chance at a better life, and that will change.
I don't support violence against civilians, Arab or Jewish. Between the Palestinians and Israel, Israel is by far the biggest instigator of that violence. I believe that a Palestinian life is as important as a Jewish one, or as an American one, or as mine. Unlike some people, I believe a murderer is a murderer, even if it is not me or my family they are trying to kill.
[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]