Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grmrpr on March 18, 2006, 09:59:40 AM
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All-
I am writing this in the hopes to engage as many players as possible into a discussion about the current state of moderators. The goal of this thread is not to bash the moderators but rather to rally the AH community into better understanding their roles and our responsibilities as players. It is also my hope we use this as a platform to establish our community guidelines.
On the night of 3/16/2006 several players were muted repeatedly for conducting an open discussion on 200 about moderators. The discussion was conducted very appropriately and the players involved in the discussion tried to bend over backwards to not cross any lines that could be considered by any reasonable adult as cause for being muted. Never the less the moderator on at the time felt differently and continually muted several players for openly discussing the topic at all. To avoid this type of situation in the future here is what I propose:
1. HTC should spend some time writing a EULA "End User License Agreement" or AUP "Acceptable Use Policy" which contains guidelines for what is acceptable in play. This document(s) should contain a set of guidelines for what is acceptable and what is not. For example items that may be appropriate are:
a. No curse words in text or spoken on public channels.
b. No attempts to bypass language filters.
c. No threatening of any kind.
d. No Sexual harassment.
2. There should be a moderator’s handbook. For example items that may be appropriate:
a. The role of the moderator is a customer service role. When acting in this role you are addressing the customers that pay for this game and you should treat them fairly and impartially.
b. The role of a good moderator is to diffuse a situation. If you approach a situation in a confrontational manner you will only escalate the situation instead of diffusing it.
c. When a player gets out of line they should be spoken to politely and be given the opportunity to correct their behavior on their own. Any popup mesgs sent to players in warnings should be sent politely. For example:
Appropriate Moderator Responses:
Player- Using foul language
"Please refrain from using that language"
Player- Making Sexual comments
"Please do not discuss that- some of our players are under age"
Player- Trolling political subjects
"Please take that topic off-line or to a private channel"
d. As a moderator from time to time there will be topics discussed that you may personally not agree with. You should not use your privileges to squelch situations unless they are in violation of the rules.
3. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a method for players to field complaints against what they feel are inappropriate uses of moderators’ privileges? For example if every time a moderator uses their mute ability the popup could be stamped with an incident number. With the incident number the player could write into a moderator owned forum asking for an explanation to why they were muted or why they disagree with the mute. This implies that all moderators would be able to track incidents numbers and review them.
Please let's try to keep this discussion constructive and use it as a vehicle to improve the game.
Regards all-
GrmRpr
What are your experiences with moderators?
What do you think could improve the game for them and the players?
What other models have you seen that work well in multi players games to police the community?
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Under section (1) I would add:
e. No racial slurs or derogatory statements.
Under section (2) (c) add:
Player- Making Racial comments
"Please do not discuss that- some of our players find it highly offensive"
With those additions I think you are about done.
Good job! :)
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When I was a sysop on the Zone (mostly for Fighter Ace), we actually had to go through training classes before we were sysops :). There were definite guidlines. We even had to screenshot foul language, griefer friendly fire, personal attacks before taking action (as a CYA). We had to warn before muting or even kicking someone out of a room or totally banning them from the Zone for 24 hours (we used canned warning text a lot of the time). One example that sticks out to me is a user named 'XyclonB' in Fighter Ace. I had several complaints about that name when I came into a lobby (I had no idea what it was at the time) and after it was explained to me what that name meant, I kicked and banned the user. I felt that fell into the 'offensive name' catagory.
I can't pretend to know what HTC does but I have to assume they give game and bbs mods guidelines, with some room for judgement. I also have to belive that they pick their mods only after knowing they can trust them. You can't give someone that kind of responsibility and huge customer contact and worry that the mod will drive customers away and cause more harm than good.
Unfortunately, no matter what HTC does there will be issues with mods, whether it's a mod overstepping his bounds or a customer who doesn't agree with what a mod did (even if the mod was correct). I'd assume that HTC would take a look at reports of 'mod abuse' just to make sure a mod was not going postal, but I'd also think that there would have to be plenty of hard evidence of why a mod overstepped to back up the claim. Hopefully there would not be too much trivial complaining that would take up too much time from dev since HTC is so small.
The guideline you suggested is a good idea (I have no idea if it already exists since I don't read that stuff), it sounds similar to the posting rules on the bbs (just remember that there will always be a little wiggle room for judgement).
I haven't had any experience with mods in-game or on the boards at AH so I can't comment on what I think of them or what they do.
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From what I`ve seen of this discussion in the MA and others is that the biggest problem is the continuing badgering of the mods after a mute or a warning. This was no different. Send an e-mail or call HTC if you actualy feel you have been wronged and it is that important to you.It`s pretty disruptive when you continue on and on while in the MA and accomplishs nothing.
A few days ago I made a comment about a "schit 16". :) I was warned to watch my language and replied with something to the point of..... "Thank you for those kind words Mr. Mod..........np". End of story. I lived through it without too much mental anquish. :rofl
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Just to set my background...
I was the Head game op (AW moderator) in AW AOL for 5+ years. I was the first (and for a year or so, the only) game op in AW on Gamestorm. I have known HT for close to 16 years, Pyro for near that long and Skuzzy for about 3 years. My previous experience (nightmare) lead me to decline to moderate this game. I have spoken to both HT and Skuzzy extensively in the last 5 years about how the moderation system works.
Originally posted by grmrpr
1. HTC should spend some time writing a EULA "End User License Agreement" or AUP "Acceptable Use Policy" which contains guidelines for what is acceptable in play. This document(s) should contain a set of guidelines for what is acceptable and what is not. For example items that may be appropriate are:
a. No curse words in text or spoken on public channels.
b. No attempts to bypass language filters.
c. No threatening of any kind.
d. No Sexual harassment.
"11. Subscribers are expressly prohibited from engaging in any activity that constitutes, in the sole opinion of HiTech Creations, system abuse.
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This is from the TOS agreement and is about as specific as HT is going to get. Why? Keeping this vague allows HTC to enforce the TOS as they see fit. Because it is not specific, it covers ANY situation that HTC determines is "system abuse", from hacking and cheating....to profanity and trolling. Additonally, the more specific the TOS, the greater the possible legal ramifications.
Originally posted by grmrpr
a. The role of the moderator is a customer service role. When acting in this role you are addressing the customers that pay for this game and you should treat them fairly and impartially.
b. The role of a good moderator is to diffuse a situation. If you approach a situation in a confrontational manner you will only escalate the situation instead of diffusing it.
Actually, HT has told me that his mods are not in the arena in a "customer service role". The mods are there to deal with game play disruptions by the players. I agree that mods should try to "diffuse a situation", HT and I have disagreed (more than once :)) on the best way to do so. I do know that mods are supposed to warn before mute, UNLESS it's a player that they have previously warned. I am not sure how "previous" the warning needs to be.
Originally posted by grmrpr
3. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a method for players to field complaints against what they feel are inappropriate uses of moderators’ privileges? For example if every time a moderator uses their mute ability the popup could be stamped with an incident number. With the incident number the player could write into a moderator owned forum asking for an explanation to why they were muted or why they disagree with the mute. This implies that all moderators would be able to track incidents numbers and review them.
I think you meant "file" complaints. :) Complaints about the game moderation should be filed with Skuzzy via email. This has beens stated in every moderation thread I have seen in the last 5 years. If I remember correctly, the mutes do generate flags so that what happened can be check, if needed. I do not know if mods have to write incident reports. My experience with AW makes me pray they don't.
Originally posted by grmrpr
Please let's try to keep this discussion constructive and use it as a vehicle to improve the game.
If everyone does this, this thread just might stay open long enough to accomplish something. I have my doubts though. :(
My experiences with moderators.....hmmm.
I have few here. I have been muted once in 5 years and I deserved it. I have constantly seen other players get warned/muted and complain about someone else getting away with what they did. Like that makes it OK. I view the mods as our local police. When I am asked to stop doing something, I stop. I don't argue with them. Anyone that does should expect more sever action. Arguing with a cop is pointless, take it up with the judge. The "cops" are not the final authority...HT is (through Skuzzy).
What do you think could improve the game for them and the players?
Players should do what the mods ask them to do and if they believe what they are asked to do is unfair or incorrect, contact Skuzzy.
What other models have you seen that work well in multi players games to police the community?
Well, I can tell you about a model that didn't work and one that did...but, at a very high cost. Both in the same game. However, my fingers are tired...so, another time. :)
BTW, I logged in after this "discussion" started. I think you were already gone. What I saw was NOT very "appropriate". It was childish, annoying and veiled threats were made against the mods and other players. The folks involved at that time should be glad that HT didn't provide me with the powers I had in AW...at least a couple of players would be on the outside, permenantly. My guess would be that something you asked for above occured. The mods saw a situation occuring that could become disruptive and chose to attempt to defuse it. From the 2 hours of it that I saw, the attempt to defuse the situation failed.
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I hope this does not come off as some sort of affront to HTC or their employees, paid or otherwise. I have been a customer of "Dale and Doug's flight sims" for over a decade and fully intend to continue being one. But I think the subject of the moderators is an important one, to everyone.
I have no issue with there being moderators in the MA or on the BBS. While the need for them might be regrettable, there are clearly people who cannot conduct themselves in a respectful and adult manner and do in fact need to have a babysitter. I also recognize that the MA is exempt from the constitutionally protected freedom of speech, HTC can implement any policy it deems appropriate. But the current implementation of the moderators in the MA does need some tweaking in my opinion. There have been some good suggestions already but for me it all boils down to two main points.
FAIRNESS
There is a widespread conclusion that the application of the policy is skewed by personality. This may or not be true, I am open to the possibility that is a misperception, but perception can and often does become reality if it is allowed to spread. I have seen some of the most outrageous things said on ch200 by some individuals who keep posting on and on while others I know have been muted for saying “sissy”. On the night in question (3/16) whoever the moderator-on-duty was, he clearly having a bad day. We all have them from time to time, but it is sad that his bad mood had to affect my evening of recreation. I got muted once for reasons I really do not understand. There was no warning, no explanation. When I became un-muted I asked “Mr. Moderator, please tell me what I sad wrong so I can avoid doing it again”. I then got muted again. During my silent period I saw a small subset of players ranting on ch200, making all sorts of personal attacks and casting aspersions towards the sexual activities of other player’s mothers. This situation can only be solved by there being some sort of EUAL/ACU that must be enforced without prejudice or consideration of personalities, which is my second point.
POLICY
I recognize the trap of trying to list every naughty word, that is not what I mean we should have. But there does need to be some sort of policy that says certain things are not allowed to be discussed or even mentioned. I can only conclude from my recent run-in with the moderators that the fact that there is no policy is not allowed to be mentioned. Does that not strike anyone as being ridiculous? I expect that every time someone gets muted that they are owed an explanation of what they did wrong. The policy is not open to a vote, HTC can lay down any law they choose, but in order to comply with the policy I do need to understand what it is.
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I am just giving my opinion here, but if it is anything like the different groups ( CM Staff - Training staff - etc....) each group more than likely already use a base set type of rules ( ie---> handbook ) for the different types of arena use available to the community
the biggest problem to deal with / over come for HTC ( or any other MPOG ) is picking the most responsible/ mature/ non-bias individuals to do the job's task......
regardless if they are well known and popular with the community, or have bunch of friends , if the friend is out of line they should not play favortism and let them go unmuted/warned just because......
I have been muted for mis speeling a word here or their once or twice, but never ejected or banned- is because I try not to psuh peoples buttons and respect the next player on the other end for the most part, to enjoy their online time as I would like to enjoy mine. the way the system works now is much better for the community than having full time ( and publically known ) moderators/gameops......
if you push them in that direction, it just breeds all kinds of ill will for the people doing the job, that eventually the ones doing it get burnt out, and end up not having fun themselves.......
looking back, 2 or 3 of them other sims, had alot of online staff ( fulltime & volunteer ) and the more they policed the more hassle they seemed to get from the community.......
one thing about online staff ( vol or fulltime employee) they always have the ability to update and amend the base line handbook they all go by, if it is needed or warranted..........
if the whole community knew the handbook guidelines/rules , then that would open the door for certian players to find a loop hole to work around to create chaos for others, just because that is how they get their kicks and entertainment.......
like I said, just my view/opinion...........
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I've no idea if the mods are the same people who were doing it 2-3 years ago, but I can say without any doubt that whatever "policies" were in place then were absolutely not being applied fairly or evenly.
I mentioned it to Skuzzy, I ended up cancelling my account over it. That was a while ago though, perhaps they have different people doing it now.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The biggest problem that exists with moderation in game is an non uniform enforcement policy.
not throwing spears at any of the moderators or HTC, but is it that there is no basic handbook of rules for moderating..........or is it there is a handbook/rules, but the individual mderator is taking upon themselves to use action or not when they want to.........meaning they are being selective in their actions.......
is why I mentioned that the hardest thing for any online game to overcome regarding staffing is picking mature/responsible/non-biased individuals who will perform as desired for both the players and HTC........
to pull a name out as an example from long ago, Flossy back in that decomissioned game of AW... was one of these highly sought after individuals who did not play favortism, and acted mature and responsibly in ever instance that arose........
no one knows who the mods are, make it where when an individual is muted/warned/ejected it tells them Moderator#1 or mderator#6 has issued the muting/warning/ejecting on (said player) so it would give some type of record as to which moderator is not going by the guidelines if the muted/warned player wanted to file a complaint, yet keeps everyone's identity safe........if the person being muted/warned etc...has a reason to think they are being singled out, then they can email & say it was by moderator# so&so and this would show HTC if there is a pattern to be concerned about and would let them ( HTC ) take action accordingly to said moderator.......with out causing any hatred toward any player or moderator ......
just a thought
edited: as for Edbet's wish for a Policy and wanting to know, I think all should be able to know the policy, but as of right now, NB has listed it or quoted from it in this thread as the TOS, I also understand it's vagueness and the reason why........what I am mentioning about is the handbook/rules/guidelines that the moderators are to use/go by when looking for a reference point to apply to a situation in the game or on the messageboards......then also the moderaotrs being fair to everyone, and not singling out someone, or being selective.....to end, I am not saying that any single moderator is even doing this, just saying if they was too or if people think they are........
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I was the "Moderator" trainer in AW towards the end of AWClassic. I would run classes for these folks, with numerous examples I had written out, with the correct response in each case.
It worked well.
Each Moderator had two accounts - one to moderate with and one to fly with - this eliminated any sense of power abuse while moderating. We had a rough schedule to follow to cover the arena.
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Fairness of application is IMHO the only answer.
Applying such can be tuff.
Also one moderator can be easy on people where another can jump all over everyone for everything. Guide lines can also be tuff to set up.
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Moderators need to be able to force people to not circumvent the rules.
ex. you cant type "****" but you can type"chit"
you cant type "studmuffin" but you can type "fa g"
cant" ****er" can "phucker"
this is an ever occuring issue with channel 200 and it never ends.I recently just tuned off 200,just because there's no rules applied to some of these people who consistantly have this type of behaviour on 200.
Another common problem is the ever growing list of people with truely unacceptable names or cpids,"jewkiller" "hugahunk" "som*****" and the list just gets bigger everyday.
I'm no morale defender for HTC but there has to be limitations to the extent that people are allowed to skirt around the moderators.I got muted for 10minutes because I responded to someones calling me a "mutherfuker",by calling them a "studmuffin".Theres always gonna be the ones who cry "dweeb" "hack" "cheater" "blah blah" "get some skills u pos" ,these are just a few of the things that frequent the 200 channel.
Of course none of this can be blamed on HTC,it's more the morale decline of people and the rage of frustrations from being beat in game or haveing to much stress in real life to enjoy the game.
I would like to commend a few people who try to get people to clean it up alittle when in the main arena.These would be
WMLute
Ghosth
Sim
ROC
I'm sure that there are many more but these are all that come to mind right now.Takeing a lesson from them ,I have been trying harder to keep it clean on my part.
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NB mentioned TOS. IMHO it was pure AOL garbage but it did create a sort of rules which everyone had to follow.
My thought on Moderating is "if you wouldn't spell or say something to your parents, then don't do it here". End of subject. If you do say something that you wouldn't want your parents to say then you had better expect to be chastised for it. If you add the rule..."no exceptions" then the boundaries get fairly well defined. When everyone knows what is expected of them, in order to play AH2 then they will either adhere to them or go watch TV.
Personally, I'd rather be flying....:)
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My only problem with the moderation is soome people seem to get a pass, while others are hit hard and early. I have seen some regular abusers go on for hours, while at that same moment someone else will get muted or warned for much less.
As for me personally, I have never been muted, and the few warnings I have gotten were tactful and I did what I was asked and had no further problems.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I've no idea if the mods are the same people who were doing it 2-3 years ago, but I can say without any doubt that whatever "policies" were in place then were absolutely not being applied fairly or evenly.
I mentioned it to Skuzzy, I ended up cancelling my account over it. That was a while ago though, perhaps they have different people doing it now.
everytime i log in I see or hear someone chewing someone else out. bleep bleep bleep bleep. just got old, i still have my account, but i went from playing 100+ hours a month at one point to under 10 the past couple months if that. im tired of the teens, and tired of their mouths. id rather shoot at drones off line in another sim than have to put up with their crap. dont give me the squelch them line. I shouldnt have to squelch 30 people just to play the game in silence.
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Originally posted by Grits
As for me personally, I have never been muted
Hmmm. We may be able to change that.
- oldman (c'mon, folks, if you're going to push the line, don't expect that you're going to get absolute fairness of application. Just stop pushing the line.)
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MyTake:
1. Grmrpr dosn't like my mod system.
2. Grmrpr starts raisning a fuss in the main.
3. Dosn't win there because mods are doing what they are there 4. So he comes here and continues the same topic.
4. He tries shift the blaim to the mods instead of hist behavior.
Future step 5. He continues the same behavior and is no longer with us.
What it comes down to is very simple , If you do not know how to beheavior in a general social enviorment, no amout of rules will ever teach you to do so.
HiTech
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ehehe WMmute...i knew it! :P
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Hey Hitech, when was it said that Grm was ever involved with the mods? Or had any conflicts involving the mods? He is simply questioning how the mods have tended to handle things in the recent past. IMO you need to calm down for once and take a look at what the "people" are saying rather than take what the mods do for face value. They are not always right, nor are you. They, and you, are human just like everyone else who plays the game.
Why do you think, or make it seem like you are bigger than life sometimes? Aren't we your pay check?
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Originally posted by VIC
I would like to commend a few people who try to get people to clean it up alittle when in the main arena.These would be
WMLute
Ghosth
Sim
ROC
I'm sure that there are many more but these are all that come to mind right now.Takeing a lesson from them ,I have been trying harder to keep it clean on my part.
Originally posted by jaxxo
ehehe WMmute...i knew it! :P
It's rare to see me anything but respectful to others online. I try to be helpful, and I value this community very much. I've had my tirades where I have gone off on someone, but you won't see me cursing at them ever. I've been Moderated too many times to count for not shutting up, but never over cursing.
It isn't rare to see me ask people to watch their language. Fly one of my Special Events. I CM'd a King of the Hill tonight. I didn't hear or read one single curse word, and you won't. I have ejected people over language during a Special Event like a SnapShot or a KOTH, but most people will quit if you just call 'em on it, and ask them not to. And I do. I have always done that. You have flown one of my events, you already know this.
In the Main Arena I TRY to act exactly how I expect the people in one of my Special Events to act. I DO treat people respectful for the most part.
I would be a hypocrite to act otherwise.
So what about that do you have a problem with?
The way I expect people to act during a Special Event that I or someone on my SnapShot / King of the Hill team are running is how I feel people should act in the Main Arena as well. I think the Moderators are doing an ok job. The MA seems to be a little bit better. I can't tell the Moderators what to enforce in the MA (personally, I would have a much lower tolerance level then they seem to) but you will not find some of the behavior that you see in the Main Arena during one of my events.
Thank you Creton for the kind words. I try.
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Just out of curiousity, IS there a policy regarding offensive player IDs? I for one usually ignore them, but every so often it causes a stink (which is exactly what they wanted to accomplish). I know it would be even more work, but having a filter in place to kick out some of the more obviously offensive names would help keep it down maybe. I understand what NB is saying with keeping the rules vague, but IMO it just reinforces the idea for some that "if there's no rule says I cant, then I can."
I also agree with the "dont question the mods" thing. If you have a problem with it, email Skuzzy. Even if you are being polite or truly dont understand why you were muted, even if it was a mistake, the mod might see it as you being confrontational. Take it to the person who is responsible for dealing with it. If the mod was wrong, I'm sure they will be told about it.
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Moderators should never ever ever be anonymous. As paying customers we are OWED some accountability. This causes a secret police state mentality. I saw it heavily abused the other night it seemed that anytime someone asked why they or another person was muted, another nute would follow.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Moderators should never ever ever be anonymous. As paying customers we are OWED some accountability.
Your "owed" accountability can be found a support@hitechcreations.com. Nuff said.
I saw it heavily abused the other night it seemed that anytime someone asked why they or another person was muted, another nute would follow.
You would think that some people would see the cause & effect situation there, and stop being the cause. DUH.
By the way, good post NB
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I have always thought that these were good guide lines ...
They were posted on AcesHigh Website, long while back .....
Im posting them here in the hopes, that it will help all concerned to
" Just cool their jets a little ".....
Regards
Bob/ CHECKERS
The unwritten rules of Aces High
As with many games, over time some
unwritten rules establish them selves as
generally accepted behavior. These rules
are not cast in concrete but are a good
guideline on how one conducts himself.
Some rules take into account "real" life happenings while playing the game
while others are pretty much accepted by the population of online players for
ingame issues.
First are the accepted unwritten rules for real life issues:
1. When nature calls, announcing on Channel One "Pee Break" and ones
location is accepted as a "timeout". Time may vary but that pilot is
considered offlimits for that time period.
2. When the beer is empty, announcing on Channel One "Beers Empty"
results in the same timeout with the additional requirement of grabbing
beer for anyone that want's it.
3. Wife ack. No explanation is necessary. No time limit is imposed.
4. Pet interference: dependent on the nature of intrusion and resultant outcome as it effects participation.
Accepted unwritten rules for ingame issues:
1. In a base vultching situation the first to call "dibs" goes to the front of the
line. When mulitple pilots call dibs at the same time, a coin flip will decide
who is first. Taking cuts is frowned upon.
2. Wiping the goo from ones air screen is an official timeout if it has been
announced on Channel One. Time may vary dependent on the amount of
goo present. Multiple kills=more goo. evaluated on a per kill basis.
3.Anyone that bails and opens his chute above 600 feet AGL shall be shot in their chute. The resultant whining on Channel One will be replied with the comment "Your Momma"
4. Political discussions, whining about getting killed, ANYTHING in CAPS
on Channel One shall result in the offender becoming a labeled "tard" and
shall be shunned by those present.
5. The talking of "smack" is reviewed on a case by case basis. Good smack
is a pleasure to read. Badly written smack reflects on the poster more than the recipient. So good sentence structure and a clear thought processes are required so as not to percieved as a "tard". Talking good
smack is akin to walking a mine field. The liabilities out way the benifits.
Unwritten rules really are a way of life. They are not hard and fast rules, but rules that have been accepted over time. Think of it as a step up into the world of Aces High. Now go out and have some fun !!
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Originally posted by hitech
MyTake:
1. Grmrpr dosn't like my mod system.
2. Grmrpr starts raisning a fuss in the main.
3. Dosn't win there because mods are doing what they are there 4. So he comes here and continues the same topic.
4. He tries shift the blaim to the mods instead of hist behavior.
Future step 5. He continues the same behavior and is no longer with us.
What it comes down to is very simple , If you do not know how to beheavior in a general social enviorment, no amout of rules will ever teach you to do so.
HiTech
Wow. I, by and large, stay out of all things like this, however, there are legitimate, and politely asked questions put forward here, regarding the system under which we are all affected. Respectfully HiTech, if my plumber, Doctor, or yard man responded to my questions in the fashion that you have here, I'd fire him without a second thought.
Of reasonnable interest, the community at large would like to have a better idea of how the moderators are instructed to do their jobs.
We would like a crack down on the use of mispelled words that represent something otherwise mutable.
We would similarly like a crack down on openly offensive names.
We appreciate the idea that the mods keep track of those who contiunally abuse the system, but find that there are serious gaps in enforcement on those players, and MANY others.
HiTech, I can appreciate how and why you would take criticism of this nature a bit personally. You put thousands of hours into this, and do a heck of a good job of it. That said, we would all appreciate it if you would more often respond in a less defensive tone. It's hard for us to communicate legitimate issues with you if we expect at any moment to be banned from the game on a day when your feeling miffed.
Morpheus may have said it strongly above, but his point was relatively valid. Like he, I have dropped from 100ish hours of play, to very few per month. Frankly, if I weren't such good friends with my squad mates, you wouldn't still be getting my 15 bucks. Not because of you or your response here, but because of the issues described above by so many good old members.
At the end of the day, we want the same thing that you do.
Best Regards,
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Originally posted by 68Hall
Respectfully HiTech, if my plumber, Doctor, or yard man responded to my questions in the fashion that you have here, I'd fire him without a second thought.
Apples to oranges. Lets try maybe, movie theatre owner. In that theatre there are ushers that you rarely take notice to, but if someone is doing things to disrupt the experience that everyone else came there for you might see them come down and warn that person. If the offender doesnt take the hint, they might come back with the manager and escort them out. Sometimes you might think they are acting like barny fife when they feel the need to cause a disruption themselves by telling someone to take their feet off the seat in front of them when it clearly wasnt bothering anybody. Other times there doesnt happen to be an usher in the theater at that particular time to see someone causing a disturbance. How much luck do you think you'd have getting the theater owner to answer to you, to explain why his ushers aren't doing their job the why you think they should, or even talk to you for that matter?
Or a nightclub owner even. Does the club owner owe you a meeting on the protacol of his bouncing staff just because you paid the cover charge? I doubt it. He books the bands and the DJ's. People pay to come in and be entertained, but at the end of the day its his place, and its up to him who will be allowed in, and how they will be expected to behave if they want to stay.
If you did have a legitimate complaint or concern with either of those examples, what would you do? Ask to speak with the manager privately? Write a letter to the managment? There are parallel responses for that with HTC. On the other hand what if instead you stood in the lobby of the establishment loudly voicing your concerns hoping to gather support from other paitrons? Do you think you'd get a cheery response, or do you think you'd be escorted out the door?
Sorry, but I am not sayin this to stick up for HT, what I am saying is that if you want to draw parallel to a real life comparison, go all the way and be realistic, and see if you'd act the same way. (by "you" I mean the reader, and not anyone in particular)
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murdr go back and reread my post. You have misunderstood the context of the sentences that you quoted. I will clarify.
If any one of the above that I mentioned, responded to me, as HiTech did in this thread, they would be gone without a thought. I'm addressing the post by HiTech as well as a number of other terse posts that I have seen before.
I am his paying customer, not the other way around.
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BTW in all of your examples what I would do is walk out, never come back, and tell all of my friends about how the owner chooses to communicate with his patrons, and convince them not to go there either.
Though some of my post was directed at ingame issues, the impetus was on the manner in which he chose to address what was actually a reasonably respectful and mature group of posts...and which we all know is EXTREMELY RARE on this board.
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So if a dissatisfied patron tried to cause a public commotion in the lobby, rather than first going to the manager to privately state his concerns, in your eyes the managment would be out of line?
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Originally posted by Grits
My only problem with the moderation is soome people seem to get a pass, while others are hit hard and early. I have seen some regular abusers go on for hours, while at that same moment someone else will get muted or warned for much less.
As for me personally, I have never been muted, and the few warnings I have gotten were tactful and I did what I was asked and had no further problems.
Couldn't agree more. I've been warned, and muted about 8-9 times since starting in Apr. of 2001.
I'm personally fed up with "some having free reign" to outright type cuss words, and continue posting. If this is allowed, the Moderator "on-duty" has NO BUSINESS muting anyone. I'm sorry, but favortism is rampant, and blatantly obvious. IMO, if someone is truly going to "Moderate" the MA, Mute ALL OFFENDERS (cussing, 15 minutes rants of how "How this game sucks (sorry kReacher, about 20 people were filming you)", etc), don't "pick and choose. Either Mute or let em go. This "almost moderating", while bedding with "favorites" is the wrong approach. Bottom line, you're a Moderator, act like one.
I was in a PM with another player two nights ago about, more or less, this very thing. To pretend there "isn't anything wrong" is worse than what is going on in the present.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Hmmm. We may be able to change that.
- oldman (c'mon, folks, if you're going to push the line, don't expect that you're going to get absolute fairness of application. Just stop pushing the line.)
The problem IS, the folks who are PROVOKING and INSTIGATING are "getting the Freedom to say the said things". You sir, are oblivious for posting that.
Karaya
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Originally posted by hitech
MyTake:
1. Grmrpr dosn't like my mod system.
2. Grmrpr starts raisning a fuss in the main.
3. Dosn't win there because mods are doing what they are there 4. So he comes here and continues the same topic.
4. He tries shift the blaim to the mods instead of hist behavior.
Future step 5. He continues the same behavior and is no longer with us.
What it comes down to is very simple , If you do not know how to beheavior in a general social enviorment, no amout of rules will ever teach you to do so.
HiTech
future step 5. to gmrpr. Now this is really disturbing to me when XXXXXXX Can swear at every player in game. threaten 100 at least of your customers that he'll beat them to bloody pulp at convention. Abuses everyone who ever shot him down and has used every swear word know to man and racist comment. This person's punishment was 1 week no text. woho no wonder mod's have to work and ruffle feathers. Since people see this XXXXXXX back in arena. People like him and few others is why new players coming in think this is what 200 is for to bait others into argument's and to act with no recourse. Because of this 1 player alone I think grrpr's questions are fair and should be discussed if not here then 1 to 1 by htc employee. using phone or e-mails.
please don't say send complaints or films of xxxxxxx to htc they have rec multi films and complaints about xxxxxxxx.
I was so sure that XXXXXXXX was going to be banned for life just for comments he made to me not counting comments to others in pass. I was totally shocked that he got text back and was flying again. The first day he was back he had told people to use text chat on me so i get muted, and when I told others if they did they could get in trouble for using it. I got told off fast by HTC i was wrong not instigator.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Just out of curiousity, IS there a policy regarding offensive player IDs? I for one usually ignore them, but every so often it causes a stink (which is exactly what they wanted to accomplish).
Offensive IDs are easily addressed. Simply take a screen shot and e-mail it to Skuzzy. You can bet it will corrected immediately.
Trainers see offensive IDs all the time. In fact, many of the really bad IDs never get to the MA because a trainer happens to spot them in the TA.
Seriously obnoxious IDs may get the player ejected from the TA and HTC will be notified. Moderately bad taste IDs are usually handled by asking the player to select a more appropriate ID. If it's seen again, the issue is usually forwarded to HTC for adjudication.
As to being muted for foul or inappropriate language...
First off, I am not going to define HTC's policy for them, that is defined in their Terms of Service, which everyone playing this game has agreed to. I am simply going to describe what I know to be true as of right now. HTC can and will employ whatever policy they deem necessary. As a trainer, I am the face of HTC for many players. Therefore, my behavior as a trainer in the TA or as a player in the MA or even on these boards reflects on HTC for good or bad. Therefore, I personally will conduct myself according to that responsibility.
Policy in the TA is no different than in the MA, except that the trainer is known to the players. There is a critical difference between the TA and MA in this regard. Trainers have the power to eject players. Moderators do not, and cannot protect themselves other than by being anonymous. I can easily imagine witch hunts to find and gang moderators when they play in the MA.
In the TA, warnings are sent for minor swearing or name calling. Repeating the offense will result in muting. Really flagrant language will result in being instantly muted, and if it's a threat or ethic slur, instantly ejected. Arguing with the trainer over a rules violation can result in muting if the player becomes abusive or disruptive. In most instances, a player will be ejected if he continues to use foul language after the mute expires.
Trainers have the flexibility to enforce the rules on a case by case basis and the penalty (if any is imposed) is based upon what the trainer perceives as the player's intent. Some trainers allow for more latitude than others. I prefer to PM the offender and get them to change their behavior without a public dressing-down. This often does the trick. Sometimes it doesn't and I have to mute or eject the player. I would rather not have to resort to ejection as the player can simply log into the DA or MA and continue to misbehave, but on occasion there is no other option.
Gentlemen, be thankful that HTC hasn't seen the need to give MA moderators eject powers. I have seen plenty of things in the text buffer that I would have ejected the player for, as muting would be far too easy on them.
CMs, Moderators and Trainers are selected after thorough review by HTC and their future peers. Every effort is made to select people who will use sound judgement, who are not easily provoked, are even-tempered and fair minded.
That does not mean that any of these individuals will not have a bad day. They are not perfect. Poor decisions will be made, they will be rare, but they will happen. HTC understands this.
Nonetheless, if you believe you have a valid issue with a moderator, trainer or CM, the place for discussing this is not in the text buffer and not on the BBS either. The place to discuss this is via e-mail with HTC. Be sure to document the problem via film. If you don't have film, you won't have a case. If you have a valid issue, HTC will take the time to talk to the parties involved and if need be, will discipline the CM/trainer/moderator privately, and I know this for a fact.
So please, conduct these discussions via e-mail or phone call to HTC and not here.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Offensive IDs are easily addressed. Simply take a screen shot and e-mail it to Skuzzy. You can bet it will corrected immediately.
Trainers see offensive IDs all the time. In fact, many of the really bad IDs never get to the MA because a trainer happens to spot them in the TA.
Seriously obnoxious IDs may get the player ejected from the TA and HTC will be notified. Moderately bad taste IDs are usually handled by asking the player to select a more appropriate ID. If it's seen again, the issue is usually forwarded to HTC for adjudication.
As to being muted for foul or inappropriate language...
That does not mean that any of these individuals will not have a bad day. They are not perfect. Poor decisions will be made, they will be rare, but they will happen. HTC understands this.
Nonetheless, if you believe you have a valid issue with a moderator, trainer or CM, the place for discussing this is not in the text buffer and not on the BBS either. The place to discuss this is via e-mail with HTC. Be sure to document the problem via film. If you don't have film, you won't have a case. If you have a valid issue, HTC will take the time to talk to the parties involved and if need be, will discipline the CM/trainer/moderator privately, and I know this for a fact.
So please, conduct these discussions via e-mail or phone call to HTC and not here.
My regards,
Widewing
The "favortism" has been obvious, and increasing for well over a year now. If "Mute's are flagged for review" film should NOT be needed, as they can perform a cursory review the following day.
The "bad day" excuse no longer applies. What has been posted on 200 lately in inexcuseable and not Muted.
Heck, I've had to squelch 3 Rooks for the last two months because they either "Cuss so dang much on green (and are NOT muted), cuss EXCESSIVELY on range, or try to be "Pocket Fuhrers".
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The "favortism" has been obvious, and increasing for well over a year now. If "Mute's are flagged for review" film should NOT be needed, as they can perform a cursory review the following day.
The "bad day" excuse no longer applies. What has been posted on 200 lately in inexcuseable and not Muted.
Heck, I've had to squelch 3 Rooks for the last two months because they either "Cuss so dang much on green (and are NOT muted), cuss EXCESSIVELY on range, or try to be "Pocket Fuhrers".
Karaya
I do not know that there is 100% moderator coverage. Perhaps, there was no moderator online. I have walked away from my computer to deal with real life stuff for a few minutes, only to discover later that some kid had been badly misbehaving in the TA during my absence.
There will always be a need for self-policing in the MA. To do this effectively, you have to run film and send the film to HTC. If you have players using foul language in the MA, film it. You can complain to HTC, but the first question they will ask is, "do you have film?"
I have worked with Skuzzy on similar issues several times. Skuzzy has always done his best to prevent a reoccurance of bad behavior. However, he needs us, the players, to provide him with the evidence he needs. That evidence is film.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
, or try to be "Pocket Fuhrers".
Karaya
I see you are talking about JohnnyRa. LOL, I look for him as soon as I get on, and mute him if I see his name in the rostor. Sucks to have to, but I can not stand listening to him.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I do not know that there is 100% moderator coverage. Perhaps, there was no moderator online. I have walked away from my computer to deal with real life stuff for a few minutes, only to discover later that some kid had been badly misbehaving in the TA during my absence.
There will always be a need for self-policing in the MA. To do this effectively, you have to run film and send the film to HTC. If you have players using foul language in the MA, film it. You can complain to HTC, but the first question they will ask is, "do you have film?"
I have worked with Skuzzy on similar issues several times. Skuzzy has always done his best to prevent a reoccurance of bad behavior. However, he needs us, the players, to provide him with the evidence he needs. That evidence is film.
My regards,
Widewing
Sorry widewing but flims and screen shots of worst offenders. only gets them 1 week no text and leaves vox text for them to belittle swear and threaten players and they stay in game and get text back 1 week. player xxxxxxxx lost text and still used vox private to swear and threaten HTC got screens and films and no further punishment to said player. Something is veryy wrong with TOS or HTC needing Cash maybe.
that is why Grmpr's question is valid. Please explain to your CUSTOMERS how 1 person can get nothing done to him, and others can be banned for alot less. by alot less say there is cheat codes your banned instantly but to threaten players make racist statements use every swear word known and you only get 1 week no text. somethings not right
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hell, all I say is "Bush = Hitler" and I get chat banned for a week.
After the last chat ban, I sat amazed as the same person you are refering to Rod, went on a tirade that made even me amazed....
That is my issue, the lack of continuity between the system the mods use to mute. The night that Edbert was politely talking to the mod and repeatedly getting muted is a prime example. I know a lot of smart alecs, wise arses, and trash talkers on here, Edbert is definitely not one of them, and neither is Grm.
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I dont think I have ever heard a word from a mod....wonder why that is?
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Moderators should never ever ever be anonymous. As paying customers we are OWED some accountability. This causes a secret police state mentality. I saw it heavily abused the other night it seemed that anytime someone asked why they or another person was muted, another nute would follow.
LOL I'm sorry but this just struck me as funny coming from a gut called Mr No Name:rofl :rofl
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The problem as I see it is.
Mods are human just like you and me right!
Well all humans are prone to inconsistant and even play favorites see it many times.
So what is the cure to this cancer you ask?
I have no idea but I do know that for a small company like HTC with limited staff to even have to fart around with this is sad. They have better things to do.
I simply turn off channel 200 all together I never really have understood its usefullness anyways other than a place to run yer head.
Also The fact that someone on one team can text someone on another team just breeds the spying problem.
As far as Dales comments well I kinda see where he is coming from and also see where his comments might be abrasive.
Anyone who has played this game anytime knows that Dale is a wiz bang game developer but is sorry HT lacking in the people skills as are most folks blessed
with high IQ's.
So as we enjoy the free enterprise system we have choices.
And those are either enjoy the game and watch your mouth or dont it is your choice.
I have had my own squadmates ask me to calm it down on squad channel somethimes and for the most part they are right as rain cause I can go off like a crazy man at times.
Just remember guys it is a GAME not real life it is here for us to have fun at.
And if you get so wound up that you are not having fun any longer then maybe its time to step away for a few minutes.
A little respect goes along way.
Oh and in closing those who know me know that I am no HTC fanboy but I will ask you to take it easy on Dale and just for a moment put yourself in his shoes.
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Ya noone is Biased, and Grm. is a verbal saint...... (rollseyes)
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Originally posted by BluKitty
Ya noone is Biased, and Grm. is a verbal saint...... (rollseyes)
Anyone who has witnessed JohnnyRa abuse and threaten people for hours on end in the arena know that the rules are not applied evenly. JohnnyRa has on private VOX threatened me with physical assault, literally threatened to come to my house and assault me, and I know of many others he has done this too. He has ranted for hours on 200 with nothing done to him. Although JohnnyRa is the one that comes to mind first, there are a few others that regularly do the same thing and clearly nothing is done because they continue for hours.
One of the few times I have been warned by a Mod I was asking the person attacking me on 200 what justification they had for the attack and I[/i] was the one asked to drop it while the attacker went on for another 30 min. I did not use profanity, and I did not attack that person, I asked "What action by me gives you reason to attack me?" which was apparently against some rule of Moderation and was sent a warning.
Any attempt to claim that the rules are applied evenly is pure fantasy, which is my only beef with the moderation as it is now.
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My question is if someone is bustin yer chops on chl 200 then why do you even listen?
Some people just like the abuse i guess LOL.
Simple solution is to just turn off 200.
Works for me;)
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Because for every idiot like JohnnyRa on 200 there are 50 other guys in other countries that I enjoy talking too and who are not abusive.
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I do not use name of player, on boards as that has been told to Players not to do.
But this player was on suspension when he used private vox to abuse myself and others. no less than 10 players said they sending screen shots and films same day he went on at me. I set 4 films of xxxxxxx who was on suspension on text at time. Swearing, calling mother and sister unmentionable things, threaten to do physical harm to me and family didn't stop swearing or belittling; for 30mins on one film alone. and 3 days later he's back in arena with all privileges. So I think anyone has right to ask company what is policy I'm confused.
And you bet If something wrong with CABLE, OR CAR ETC. if I CALLED THEM OR ASKED THEM A QUESTION . AND THIER RESPONCE WAS CONTINUE ASKING QUESTIONS YOU'LL BE GONE . YOU CAN BET CABLE WOULD BE CHANGED WITH DISH, CAR COMPANY AFTER CONTACT GENERAL MOTORS AND PROBLEM NOT ANSWERED YOU CAN BET LAST GM CAR I WOULD BUY.
I've own a national Company and over years had many complaints and questions put to me. The question gmrpr is asking is just like someone calling me and saying " hey Rod why did your employee say he didn't make marks in my parking lot with your crane. Could you please look into this and discuss how things can be fixed". This customer was right when i looked into what happen I saw my crane crew didn't put pads out under their outriggers to spread weight out. I explained to customer I would get it fix asap and when he suggested to me to have a setup check list ( which was already in place) I just looked at him and said that's great idea and will add to our existing setup sheet. But here you have company HTC when someone ask a good question in a honest way say continue to ask Question and you could be gone. It should concern all Customers. For I as a businessman always treated every customer same from the 50 dollar sign till the millions of dollar signs.
I have heard from HTC is redesigning mods. And I believe it would behove Dale to be honest and Say we are working on this and hope to have a better system. I really strongly ask you to apologize to Gmrpr. And tell him truth your working to better mod's and arena I Really believe you guys try hard but think we your customers can't handle truth. Or that some will abuse the truth be told.
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Originally posted by BlkKnit
I dont think I have ever heard a word from a mod....wonder why that is?
lol then u must not have keyboard or fingers, i've been muted before for typing f4u. after calling skuzzy bug in comp mod was fixed.
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Rod 367 you make good sense in your post and I agree with ya but you gotta understand that im sure Dale is as sick of this as the rest of us.
And as I stated as long as you have human mods there will abuse it simple human nature.
I have been muted many times with out a warning and you bet it ticked me off.
But in all honesty if I had not been running my pie hole im rather sure the Mods would have never noticed me.
And yes I have has morons private text me with insults and I squelched there butts problem solved.
Now someone has said that it would be nice to have a permanent squech list.
Heck that sounds like it would solve alot of problems in that you know who the trouble makers are so you could have them on your squelch list and never have to hear them.
And not to offend anyone here but I would rather have Dale busy doing what he does best than playing wet nurse to a bunch of folks who got there feelings hurt.
Maybe and forgive me Dale but maybe assigning someone to handle public affairs would be in your best intrest as I feel you and I are alike in this type of thing as we are just a little to direct in our responses you IMHO owe no one
an apology for simply being who you are.
As I have learned from being a customer under one name or another since 2000 that it is what it is and cryin bout it wont change a thing.
LOL you know and I know that in the past I have been a royal pain in the arse and have been booted and or just plain cancelled my account.
But after thinking it over and thinking more clearly I can see that I was the problem not HTC.
Now its your house do as you like but there has been some good suggestions in this thread and they might just make life better for everyone.
Worth taking a look at?
;)
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Originally posted by BluKitty
, and Grm. is a verbal saint...... (rollseyes)
I got lot of insults from him on ch.200, or private, BKs are great buch, should teach him some manners, not defend their black sheep on BB,
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Originally posted by rod367th
I've own a national Company and over years had many complaints and questions put to me. The question gmrpr is asking is just like someone calling me and saying " hey Rod why did your employee say he didn't make marks in my parking lot with your crane. Could you please look into this and discuss how things can be fixed". This customer was right when i looked into what happen I saw my crane crew didn't put pads out under their outriggers to spread weight out. I explained to customer I would get it fix asap and when he suggested to me to have a setup check list ( which was already in place) I just looked at him and said that's great idea and will add to our existing setup sheet. But here you have company HTC when someone ask a good question in a honest way say continue to ask Question and you could be gone. It should concern all Customers. For I as a businessman always treated every customer same from the 50 dollar
Rod, I think you would agree that it would be bad form if instead of contacting you, or your subordinate directly, your customer voiced his complaint to your entire client base. It is pretty well established that some topics should be handled directly with HTC and not here. In this case, the fact that this thread has been allowed continue indicates that HT is for now interested in seeing feedback on this issue, despite the fact that this is not the prefered way to bring it up.
In regards to the concerns about habitual problem players, Im not disagreeing with many of the observations. But I do hope you guys be careful what you ask for. Recieving persistant email complaints about particual players would eventually, I think cause the issue with that individual to be delt with. Persistant public complaints about the system might just cause something to be put in place that no one will be happy with.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Rod, I think you would agree that it would be bad form if instead of contacting you, or your subordinate directly, your customer voiced his complaint to your entire client base. It is pretty well established that some topics should be handled directly with HTC and not here. In this case, the fact that this thread has been allowed continue indicates that HT is for now interested in seeing feedback on this issue, despite the fact that this is not the prefered way to bring it up.
In regards to the concerns about habitual problem players, Im not disagreeing with many of the observations. But I do hope you guys be careful what you ask for. Recieving persistant email complaints about particual players would eventually, I think cause the issue with that individual to be delt with. Persistant public complaints about the system might just cause something to be put in place that no one will be happy with.
Someone is thinking this through!
As to certain players abusing so many people. I too have sent in films of such behavour.
Something has been done on both occasion.
Later one of the players I had complained about and I spoke re that happening and got it sorted out.
Sometimes life can hand us allot of bad stuff all at once or over and over in a seemingly never ending stream. I've seen both. It can make any of us react poorly to the world around us.
Sometimes it can be good for us to remember bad times. If for no other reason then it helps us better appreciate the good times.
I generally don't hold a grudge. Life is too short.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! kappa YOU ARE A P38 BULLY .....:aok AND the 475th wears COMBAT FLIGHT BOOTS!!!!:t :O :noid
Glade my squadies put up with my rants on squad channel! Great people!
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Originally posted by Murdr
Rod, I think you would agree that it would be bad form if instead of contacting you, or your subordinate directly, your customer voiced his complaint to your entire client base. It is pretty well established that some topics should be handled directly with HTC and not here. In this case, the fact that this thread has been allowed continue indicates that HT is for now interested in seeing feedback on this issue, despite the fact that this is not the prefered way to bring it up.
In regards to the concerns about habitual problem players, Im not disagreeing with many of the observations. But I do hope you guys be careful what you ask for. Recieving persistant email complaints about particual players would eventually, I think cause the issue with that individual to be delt with. Persistant public complaints about the system might just cause something to be put in place that no one will be happy with.
Mudr I guess we see gmrpr's question differently. I see it as a legit question that he and many others are trying to understand. To ask for guidance about how moderators work is not out of realm for all customers to know. Now if he was asking about moderator 's name or thought he had been wronged then private is they way to go. Since this is a question allot ask about and gmrp cannot go private with dale and see if his perception is wrong without going on these boards. I believe that his question is on point and no abusive to HTC or its customer base.
a lot of in game things discuss on these boards. I see nothing different than if he asked why can't we stop Ho's or dive bombing and so on.
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Originally posted by ghi
I got lot of insults from him on ch.200, or private, BKs are great buch, should teach him some manners, not defend their black sheep on BB,
the "(rollseyes)" was supposed to imply sarcasm .. because this :rolleyes: doesn't look very sarcastic anymore
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Originally posted by BluKitty
the "(rollseyes)" was supposed to imply sarcasm .. because this :rolleyes: doesn't look very sarcastic anymore
Why didn't you just do the old tried and true [sarcasm] and [/sarcasm] bit?
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Originally posted by hitech
MyTake:
1. Grmrpr dosn't like my mod system.
2. Grmrpr starts raisning a fuss in the main.
3. Dosn't win there because mods are doing what they are there 4. So he comes here and continues the same topic.
4. He tries shift the blaim to the mods instead of hist behavior.
Future step 5. He continues the same behavior and is no longer with us.
What it comes down to is very simple , If you do not know how to beheavior in a general social enviorment, no amout of rules will ever teach you to do so.
HiTech
Hitech,
1. It is not a matter of disliking the mod system. It is a matter of trying to improve it.
2. I did discuss the issue in the open arena.
3. Was not trying to "Win". I was trying to see what others felt and qet feedback.
4. It is not the mods I blame. It is the system I am trying to constructively improve.
In 3 cases I have called Skuzzy about moderator problems. In 1 case I was told the automod went hay wire and it was fixed. I 1 other case I agreed I had pushed the envelope too far and that moderator in question also went too far. The last case I was told would be researched and was never gotten back to.
In 1 case you and I talked about the moderator system when we spoke about the impending move to AT&T and you were asking me if I knew a way to get Solaris to route out multiple interfaces. We spoke about how I handle mod's on the game servers I resale.
If you want to proceed to step 5 go ahead... If this is my penance so be it. Heck it would probably be good for me. I should spend more time working on my instrument rating.
Regards-
GrmRpr
Note to all-
I am no saint in all this. I have walked the line of good taste and have crossed it from time to time. There have been times I have deserved to be muted and accept that. However I have never crossed the line to the point where I "threaten" anyone or go out of my way to harm thier game experience.
I strongly dissagree with HiTech's position and feel strongly enough about it to challenge the issue. This might and looks like it is real close to causing me to be banned from the game. I accept that.
Regards to all-
GrmRpr
If I survive this I look forward to discussing it in person at the Con....
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Why didn't you just do the old tried and true [sarcasm] and [/sarcasm] bit?
because he is afraid of being called a pot.
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Btw you all do have a method of dealing with people. We have a completly self governing system. Compltly automatic. If people .report abusive users the problem is solved.
And I realy do not by into the fact of moderator abuse. In absolutly every case that I have looked into of so called moderator abuse. If I were handling the same issuse I would have done the same or more.
And what realy sums it up is somthing you yourself said grim. You went overboard with a moderator, Then try to also shift the blame by saying so did the moderator. This is where you totaly loose your case. If you had not started/caused the problem, there would be nothing for the mod to do. YOU pushed the issue not the mod. You are at fault not the mod, he was just doing what he was asked to do.
And so you all know, one of the guide lines that has always been given to the mods, is if someone openly complains about a waring, do not argue with them, if its a one liner use your judgement. If more than one comment, do not hesitate to mute them.
And It is also not uncomon for use to block people from the system for abuse. But we never reply to a complaint of films of abuse. We just take care of it.
HiTech
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I was also a moderator in AW for some time and moderated another game server for a few years. In that time, I've seen moderators make mistakes but on the most part, the few mistakes were made while dealing with some player or players disrupting gameplay. They wouldn't have made any mistakes if the player/players in question were being respectful of others instead of making some intentional abusive remark to someone. In AW, the squelch function was broken in the moderator's tools and it created alot more work for the moderators. We all thought "wouldn't it be great if that worked. All we would need to do is silence that player as a warning and he would get the message or continue down the road to a ban from the game." I would venture to say that the players who are most concerned with the squelching are the ones who are pushing the limits of acceptable conduct or the ones who abuse it regularly. I have no idea if Hitech is paying the mods but it is my guess that they are volunteers who have to babysit troublesome players instead of enjoying the game. Aces High is alot more tolerable of things than many other game servers. The ideal way to moderate a gameserver is to let the community keep the bad seeds in line. Hitech has provided that ability to some extent by allowing a player to squelch individual players or channels so they don't have to listen to some of the "crap" in text/voice. Unfortunately, the moderators are necessary because a small part of the community consistently broadcast their disrespectful or abusive comments to anyone who will listen. On the most part, I personally find the moderators doing a thankless job for the good of the community. They're not perfect but who is?
Lighten up guys and look at the big picture here. It's a great game which can be frustrating at times. While frustrated, a player makes a bad decision and tries to make an abusive comment to another. The language filter auto detects it and tells the player that it is unacceptable. While still in a rage, the player gets creative and by-passes the filter by typing a space or mispelling the intended poor choice of words and gets away with it for everyone to see. Other questionable players see it and realize that they can do that too. The moderators simply place a short squelch on the player as a warning and that should be the end of it. Who cares if someone else gets away with it. The original player has hopefully learned their lesson and the others will be dealt with in time. Individual players can file a complaint on someone while in the game! Thank you again Hitech! The Aces High Staff has done alot more than many other gameservers and are doing a great job. If a player is that unhappy about being squelched all the time, they need to look at the source of the problem, Them! Or maybe consider leaving for the good of everyone.
Sorry for the long winded response here but I hate to see the developers of the game take hits about crap that ideally they shouldn't have to deal with. It's crap caused by a small part of the community who generally are the same people in each incident.
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Originally posted by BlkKnit
I dont think I have ever heard a word from a mod....wonder why that is?
Good point. I cant' seem to find a problem here. I wish there could be more 'mods' for the people on vox who use f*ck every second word.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Nonetheless, if you believe you have a valid issue with a moderator, trainer or CM, the place for discussing this is not in the text buffer and not on the BBS either. The place to discuss this is via e-mail with HTC. Be sure to document the problem via film. If you don't have film, you won't have a case. If you have a valid issue, HTC will take the time to talk to the parties involved and if need be, will discipline the CM/trainer/moderator privately, and I know this for a fact.
So please, conduct these discussions via e-mail or phone call to HTC and not here.
My regards,
Widewing
IMHO, this is totally impractical. I don't know of anyone who films themselves 24/7. By the time you perceive a problem with how you are being treated, it is kind of late to film what lead up to it. Therefore there will always be a "he said, she said" element, and I assume if there is ANY doubt, HTC will side with the moderator (as he should).
I have no dog in this fight, so please don't take this as advocating one person's side or the other.
<> just saw HiTech's note above that came while I was typing. I am removing the rest of my original post as it seems to no longer apply. HiTech's position is totally clear.
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what a true bunch of whiners..
i have been muted plenty ..and im just having a goo dtime..
1) .REPORT
2) MUTE
BTW HITECH...WE NEED PERMA MUTE..and MUTE ON RANGE VOX PLEASE
having 10 year old screech over range is freaking unbearable
btw ..i havent played in over about 2 months..and hearing people complain about being moderated is funne...grow a pair
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OK ..I've long been suspected of being a moderator.........I have a two word suggestion......."play nice"
999000
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I don't know, guys. It seems like alot of wasted energy.
If people truly had the best interest of the game in mind, why not let the folks at HTC use their limited people and time to enhance the game, instead of having to engineer solutions to unsocial behavior by people?
We can choose to not read 200, we can squelch anyone, we can report anyone. All it takes is one right click. If you can't play a game without getting warned or muted, then the answer is in the mirror, not the game code.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
everytime i log in I see or hear someone chewing someone else out. bleep bleep bleep bleep. just got old, i still have my account, but i went from playing 100+ hours a month at one point to under 10 the past couple months if that. im tired of the teens, and tired of their mouths. id rather shoot at drones off line in another sim than have to put up with their crap. dont give me the squelch them line. I shouldnt have to squelch 30 people just to play the game in silence.
I discovered the key to not being bothered by the idiots on 200: don't tune to 200. It really was that easy :aok
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I never tune to 200. If I did I might get mad. Channel 1 was a lot better, because then everyone could participate or be aware of what was being said. Have played for 5 years and not been moderated once, in the game or this BBS.
Les
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About PMs;
Why should a player from team B have the option to contact his enemy in team A in private, without asking permision or something!?
You want to contact me in private, ask permition, like "Join msgs", if i want to hear you ,i accept: if not, why ruin my day with some stupid insults!!??
imop ,the PMs should not be alowed inbetwen, 2 players in diferent teams, without both sides accepting the conversation ,
Are some guys out there, that can't take it, if i shoot/Ho/Vulch them or pss them off, i see white text with sparks, for next half hour
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
LOL I'm sorry but this just struck me as funny coming from a gut called Mr No Name:rofl :rofl
;-) the name came in response to this anonymous mod system
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Originally posted by ghi
About PMs;
Why should a player from team B have the option to contact his enemy in team A in private, without asking permision or something!?
You want to contact me in private, ask permition, like "Join msgs", if i want to hear you ,i accept: if not, why ruin my day with some stupid insults!!??
imop ,the PMs should not be alowed inbetwen, 2 players in diferent teams, without both sides accepting the conversation ,
Are some guys out there, that can't take it, if i shoot/Ho/Vulch them or pss them off, i see white text with sparks, for next half hour
Privating me and getting abusive will get pictures taken and then squelched and then pic's to HTC.
I pay the same as everyone else! I don't private anyone with abuse! I will not be abused.
I do from time to time private people. But it's to ask a question or discuss something that happened. And I almost always private 1st with an are you BZ question and wait. All these talks have been just that talks, NO abuse was given by either party. But then NONE was intended by either party!
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GHi great suggestion exactly how player with text banned got by his text banned . he went off on PM over and over and i never spoke back to him on PM. I let him hang himself which I thought he did and nothing was done on htc's end. 3 days later hes got text back and trying to get others to use new moderator players can use to banned someone's text. still nothing done.
I would say person losing text should lose pm vox too. Or remove PM all together. would also make spying harder.
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wow... i can remember when people got their panties in a bunch for getting called a "lamer gangbang dweeb"
yanno, profanity is the first refuge of the mediocre - so unimaginative.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Good point. I cant' seem to find a problem here. I wish there could be more 'mods' for the people on vox who use f*ck every second word.
Step up to the plate skernsk. You have the .report text/chat feature at your fingertips as HT just mentioned.
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Dale, not to exacerbate the issue but to help me and others understand (and thus demonstrate what the policy actually is)...
Originally posted by hitech
And so you all know, one of the guide lines that has always been given to the mods, is if someone openly complains about a waring, do not argue with them, if its a one liner use your judgement. If more than one comment, do not hesitate to mute them.
Is it policy that a warning be issued before a muting is given? I ask becuase I was given no warning, after my ten minutes I did not complain, I asked what it was that I said that cuased my mute. i did so in a respectful manner, and even said please in a real attempt to learn what not to say and then got muted again, without warning again. I guess that fits the criteria alluded to in the quote above where I asked the question more than once but I figured my question was missed since 200 was quite...ummm....active at the time.
I said I can live with any policy HTC want to have, all I ask is for the policy to be made known to me. This was clearly not the abusive language policy by the way, I think we all understand the use of naughty words and personal insults or threats of violence. I was in voilation of some other policy and all I want to know is what that is in order to avoid it again.
So, is it policy that folks are not allowed to ask for a reason for being muted when no warning or explanation is given in the first place, and does the asking for a reason constitute grounds for being muted again?
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Originally posted by Leslie
I never tune to 200. If I did I might get mad. Channel 1 was a lot better, because then everyone could participate or be aware of what was being said. Have played for 5 years and not been moderated once, in the game or this BBS.
Les
Neither have I except for a bad web link , I use 200 for taunts, hugs, relaxation, and Baiting my "Pelt Hook" . I dont treat anyone any different then I would treat a customer or friend in my work .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
Neither have I except for a bad web link , I use 200 for taunts, hugs, relaxation, and Baiting my "Pelt Hook" . I dont treat anyone any different then I would treat a customer or friend in my work .
Yep.
Karaya
PS - I have never been as abusive as XXXXXXXX was, I heard about this incident and was shocked that he was flying 3 days later. I leave it all ballbusting and some taunts, but I don't cross the threashold.
PSS - Currently we have a max of 10 people to squelch. I ran out of Rooks a few times. I say make it unlimited, remove the "10 player limit".
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Heya Edbert
I hope to cya at the con again this year. Hopefully sharing a beer with the folks at HTC can get this all fixed.
Coach
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Originally posted by Shane
wow... i can remember when people got their panties in a bunch for getting called a "lamer gangbang dweeb"
yanno, profanity is the first refuge of the mediocre - so unimaginative.
"slobberdonkey" and "castrati" always seemed to get them going pretty good
Hi Shane ;)
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I'll buy ya a beer in June Coach
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Rosco, you know, I never got muted once until I joined the BKs. I think those dweebs are a bad influence :p