Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on August 08, 2001, 05:04:00 PM
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The movies out on tape and DVD..
If you ain't seen it.. yah really oughta.
Then ask yourself what woulda happened if Tricky Dick won that election.
And ain't Curtiss LeMay the sacriest dude you ever saw?
Those F8 recon pilots deserve the Medal of Honor. "..20mm bird strikes.." When you stop to think about it; the whole ball of wax was square on their shoulders. Incredible, what they did... cost them their careers, too.
After the flick came out; more data became available. Seems the Russain Advisors had tactical nukes and the authority to use them on a US invasion fleet. And standing orders were to use the strategic nukes if the tacticals were launched against an invasion fleet. Castro wanted 'em launched when the recon birds went over... Now THAT scared the hell outta me.
Krueschev, when he heard about the tactical nukes, flat wigged out... ordered EVERYTHING outta Cuba, Tacs and Strats, and there was a very fast shuffle of personnel in the Kremlin. Soooooo very very close...
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Great movie!
I was on the edge of my seat. I saw a biography on LeMay on speedvision. That guy was diddlying crazy...seems that the entire group of "5 stars" wanted to go into Cuba.
Communication sure sucked back then didn't it.
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What happened to end the career of the two pilots that went in low level?
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I believe they were cashiered for their refusal to positivley indicate they were fired upon. The JCS was incensed by their falsified official reports... particulary since they also had the real skinny on just what happened.
Anytime you want to know what the diffrence is between what an American military officer sees as his 'duty' and what a communist country's Officer corps determines as "duty" watch the interview tape of the Soviet Flight Officer that downed KAL flight 007.
Those F8 pilots were frekkin hero's, highest order. They KNEW they were bait; they chose to do the job; get the info, and use their heads. It should be noted that the movie is in error... they were NOT contacted by anybody in Washington to alter their reports.. they did it on their own.
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I heard the movie really took a lot of liberty with the story and was quite a far cry from what actually happened? Is this so? I'm just curious, I haven't seen the film myself or really know all the details aside from what they tell you in school about the crisis itself.
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The movie seems to center on those 13 days... no mention of the 'missile gap provocations', no mention of the CIA and Kennedy Administration's ongoing in fact war against Castro, the assination attempts, Bay of Pigs, etc. It also downplays the Russian viewpoint.. in essence it's a snapshot of those 13 days couched in the USA (good guys) vs The USSR (bad guys) hollywod frame. In fact; the circumstances creating the Missile Crisis had plenty of lead in, and really didn't end till that November, none of which is in the film.
It's thirteen days. :)
It's told from the vantage point of a Kennedy Advisor; who's real contribution and involvement was in fact significantly less than the movie portrays, and there are a few niggling little details they got wrong plus one or two they added I had'nt heard previously.
But of those 13 days in history it hits hard and pretty close to dead on. It's honest in it's depiction of Kennedy as not as the 'cool head' of legend but instead accuratley depcits him as unsure of his information; distrustful of his Military and very worried about whats happening... and going to happen.
I don't think everybodys gonna be happy with this, particluarly Cubans or Russians.. certainly no more than the Brits were enamored with 'Patriot'... but it's pretty freakin close to dead on the money, and it's an awsome look at how scary a place we were in....
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hangtime wrote:
"Then ask yourself what woulda happened if Tricky Dick won that election."
Prolly nothing, The Kremlin had just had 8 years of Ike and Richard, they were testing the new kids on the block. This opinion was held by quite a number of the white house and general staff at the time.
If you have seen the movie, then see "Missiles of October" released in '74, note the differences, then remember that in 82 congress reclassified the documents for another 20 years, (I bet next year they reclassify them again!). Then THINK, hummm some of the fringe players telling "Hollywood" types stuff as they remember it 40 years later ;). Many of you will live to see the true story revealed, you can then watch these "old" movies and see how wrong they were.
skernsk wrote:
"Communication sure sucked back then didn't it."
You bet, no hot line to Moscow, and every paper was trinity coded and delivered, nothing verbal was considered reliable. The most common phrase spoken was "is this correct"?
Tense times in the white house for sure.
been there done that :eek:
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That's kinda funny... "prolly nothin"..
LOL!! That cracks me up!
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Seen the commercial on the Discovery Channel.
Gonna rent it as soon as the wind and rain semi-stops.
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Great... thanks.... Give away the ending why don't ya.
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Hangtime.
As far as I know Nixon was a very successful forign policy president. Certainly better then Kenendy. Is that mistaken?
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if kenendy had not mucked up the bay of pigs, there would have been no "13 days"
it was result of the aborted bay of pigs invasion that the missiles were put in cuba
in the 1st place
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Don't know about the accuracy of the movie-DO remember being scared witless at the time (we lived 25 miles from NYC and figured to go "poof" in the first exchange).
BTW, if the Cuban scenario in Operational Art of War (don't remember if its I or II) is at all accurate, an attempted invasion of Cuba would have been one of the bloodiest U.S. military engagements since Antietam. I remember reading somewhere that, during the crisis, one of JFK's advisors put a same-scale map of Tarawa on a table right next to a map of Cuba and invited Kennedy to extrapolate the casualty figures. It was, I think, a point very well taken.
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LOL.. why does Kennedy still wear the onus of the Bay of Pigs fiasco? It was NOT his plan or his program.. it was Ike and his worm Dicky boy, and they were both hawks on Cuba, firmly in the pockets of the military/industrial complex and rabid over the loss of american buisness intrests in Cuba.
Kennedy refused to go whole hog with the US Military on the Bay of Pigs because the Russians made it very very clear the price would be immense, (Berlin) and a formal American Invasion would no doubt have brought us into a shooting war in Europe in short order. Kennedy took the brunt of the blame... but he did not deserve it.
By the winter of 1960, just a year after the Revolution, President Eisenhower and his key foreign policy advisers were convinced that Castro's government needed to be replaced-soon and by any means necessary. On March 17, 1960, Eisenhower authorized a Central Intelligence Agency plan, titled "A Program of Covert Action Against the Castro Regime." The document states that the program's objective is to "bring about the replacement of the Castro regime with one more devoted to the interests of the Cuban people and more acceptable to the U.S. in such a manner as to avoid the appearance of U.S. intervention."
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I thought 13 days was a love story about Hangtime and Hairball on his boat.
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Sorry, Hang. Not buying that one. Responsibility & Accountability. Who was the Commander-In-Chief on D-Day for the Bay of Pigs?
No one MADE Kennedy "green light" the invasion. He did that himself. As CinC, he bears the responsibility. He had the option to discontinue the Eisenhower planning and forbid the invasion. He absolutely did not choose to exercise that authority.
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs3.htm (http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs3.htm)
By the time Kennedy took office in January of 1961, he had made serious commitments to the Cuban exiles, promising to oppose communism at every opportunity, and supporting the overthrow of Castro. During the campaign, Kennedy had repeatedly accused Eisenhower of not doing enough about Castro....
The original plan called for a daytime landing at Trinidad, a city on the southern coast of Cuba near the Escambray Mountains, but Kennedy thought the plan exposed the role of the United States too openly, and favored a nighttime landing at Bay of Pigs, which offered a suitable air-strip on the beach from which bombing raids could be operated. Once the bay was secured, the provisional Cuban government-in-arms set up by the CIA would be landed and immediately recognized by the U.S. The new government would request military support and a new “intervention” would take place.
Bissell states, “It is hard to believe in retrospect that the president and his advisers felt the plans for a large-scale, complicated military operation that had been ongoing for more than a year could be reworked in four days and still offer a high likelihood of success. It is equally amazing that we in the agency agreed so readily.”...
Once Kennedy became aware of the plan, opposition to the invasion was subtly discouraged. Various memos and notes kept from meetings prior to the invasion warned of potential problems and legal ramifications. At a meeting on January 28 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff spoke strongly against invasion on the grounds that Castro’s forces were already too strong. At the same meeting, the Secretary of Defense estimated that all the covert measures planned against Castro, including propaganda, sabotage, political action and the planned invasion, would not produce “the agreed national goal of overthrowing Castro.”
On March 29 Senator Fulbright gave Kennedy a memo which stated, “To give this activity even covert support is of a piece with the hypocrisy and cynicism for which the United States is constantly denouncing the Soviet Union in the United Nations and elsewhere. This point will not be lost on the rest of the world—nor on our own consciences.”
A three-page memo from Under Secretary of State Chester A. Bowles to Secretary of State Dean Rusk on March 31 argued strongly against the invasion, citing moral and legal grounds.
At a meeting on April 4 in a small conference room at the State Department, Senator Fulbright verbally opposed the plan, as described by Arthur Schlesinger in his book A Thousand Days: “Fulbright, speaking in an emphatic and incredulous way, denounced the whole idea. The operation, he said, was wildly out of proportion to the threat. It would compromise our moral position in the world and make it impossible for us to protest treaty violations by the Communists. He gave a brave, old-fashioned American speech, honorable, sensible and strong; and he left everyone in the room, except me and perhaps the President, wholly unmoved."
Five days before D-Day, on April 12, Kennedy was asked at a press conference how far the U.S. would go to help an uprising against Castro. He answered: “First, I want to say that there will not be, under any conditions, an intervention in Cuba by the United States Armed Forces. This government will do everything it possibly can, I think it can meet its responsibilities, to make sure that there are no Americans involved in any actions inside Cuba… The basic issue in Cuba is not one between the United States and Cuba. It is between the Cubans themselves.”
“One further factor no doubt influenced him, “ writes Schlesinger, “the enormous confidence in his own luck. Everything had broken right for him since 1956. He had won the nomination and the election against all the odds in the book. Everyone around him thought he had the Midas touch and could not lose. Despite himself, even this dispassionate and skeptical man may have been affected by the soaring euphoria of the new day.”
Comments?
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My step father was in the C.I.A. at the time that the Cuban missile crisis was going on. I made a point to watch that movie with him and pick his brain afterwards. All in all, he said he thought it was very accurate.
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Who's this Lance guy?
We all know we can trust the CIA!
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I was just doing my Wobble impersonation.
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Right on Toad... responsibility & accountability! And the Kennedy's made damn sure there was NO Invasion. And it was the right call.
It was a botched up prep job; the pooch got screwed my CIA mis-assesments, and Kennedy yanked the plug when it was apparent there was no hope of success plus the international black eye the US would engender in the attempt... let alone the Russian response.
National Security Archive chronology; Bay of Pigs (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html)
That's TWO mass diddlyups kenndy avoided... and Tricky Dick would not have.
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Hang, you must be joking.
Kennedy DID authorize an "invasion". He sent the "Cuban Exiles" in unsupported; he HAD to know what was going to happen to them.
From your own reference:
"FEB 24-27, 1961: A team of three officers from the Joint Staff examines and reports on the military effectiveness of the Cuban Expeditionary Force at its Guatemala base. The report includes the estimate that because of the visibility of activities at Retalhuleu in Guatemala and Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua, the odds against surprise being achieved are about 85 to 15. The JCS air evaluation points out that if surprise is not achieved, the attack against Cuba will fail, adding that one Castro aircraft armed with .50 caliber machine guns could sink all or most of the invasion force. (Aguilar, p.10)"
Not too far off the mark there, were they?
"At the end of the first day of combat the Brigade controls two of the three access roads and has the third within its line of fire. The Cuban Air Force has sunk two ships and a landing craft and damaged a ship and three barges."
The professional military men told him such a half-baked operation would fail.
So typically, the politicians thought they knew more about how to fight a war. (Ummm, let's see... key figures in Kennedy administration's idiotic idea to send in Cuban Exiles to Bay of Pigs that reappeared later in the Viet Nam debacle... can you name two? :D )
Kennedy may not have authorized a US supported invasion of Cuba. Instead, he sent the Cuban Exile brigade to sure defeat instead.
The whole fargin' idea was a non-starter. With the ouster of the Eisenhower/Nixon team that started the ball rolling, the ball should have been stopped, deflated and thrown in the trash by Kennedy.
Instead, a crappy idea was made crappier by Politicians-turned-wondergenerals and the crappiest plan was executed, leading to its inevitable defeat.
This is something that you find worthy of praise or admiration?
He should have called off EVERYTHING.
Didn't do that, did he?
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I was just doing my Wobble impersonation.
You left out the part about how your dad sued them for negligence and was awarded $100,000 the next day.
AKDejaVu
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No he didn't... and he should have. Fact remains; he WAS aware that an OVERT US inavsion would not play.. and he was willing to support a CUBAN EXILE attempt as long as US personnel were not used directly. He NEVER indicated to anyone at any time that he would authorize a formal US invasion. The planners consistently and wrongly assumed he would reverse himself and ok formal US support "in dire need." They are ALMOST correct; for Kennedy is indeed sympathetic..
On the evening of DDay the situation looks bad to the President in Washington. U.S. ships might have to be used. “I’d rather be an aggressor than a bum,” (Wyden, pp.264?265) (Aguilar, pp.3?35; Johnson, pp.103?139; Wyden, pp. 273?288)
It still remains a possibility that the invasion could have accomplised it's two goals.. installation of the Exile Government and a dash into the mountains for the exile force HAD THE US BACKED UP THE EXILE FLOWN AIR RAIDS and destroyed the Cuban Air Force in detail with F8's from the Navy Task Force 100 miles south....
He didn't.. and the invasion failed, from lack of US formal support, the ineptness of some of the exile commanders, planning delays and leaks from the exile force to the Cuban regime.
Bear in mind the Kennedy, while definitly not in favor of a US invasion, supported the goals of the exiles, as did most of the population of this country. Being president (and remaining president) means he had to balance what the country wanted, and what was right for the Nation. Tough road..
Still; the guy came right out and told the Nation immediatly after the failure..
APR 21, 1961: At a press conference President Kennedy accepts responsibility for the failed invasion: “There's an old saying that victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan. What matters,” he says, is only one fact, “I am the responsible officer of the government.” (Wyden, p.305)
The guy does not shirk his responsibility.. and goes on to try and determine what can be learned from the inter-agency inspired debacle..
President Kennedy charges General Maxwell D. Taylor, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, Admiral Arleigh Burke and Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles to study our governmental practices and programs in the areas of military and paramilitary, guerrilla and anti? guerrilla activity which fell short of outright war with a view to strengthening our work in this area, with special attention to the lessons which can be learned from the recent events in Cuba. (Aguilar, p.1)
While the Bay of Pigs is certainly NOT a shining moment in american forigen policy history, it is a turning point.. and I say again, it would have been one heluva lot worse with 'Ol Dicky Boy in the hot seat.
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Hang, you're dancing around it amigo.
While I'm pretty proud of the US in general, THIS WAS A BAD IDEA FROM MOMENT ONE.
The US, through the Eisenhower years sponsored and trained the "Cuban Exiles". They believed that the US military was behind them and would support their "invasion". Whether or not they had any reason or right to believe that was another matter entirely.
Then Kennedy wins the election and the training continues, the invasion is "on".
Any... repeat ANY... of the high level military advisors could have told Kennedy it wasn't going to work unless US forces backed the play with firepower and blood. MANY of those advisors did that very thing. (Again, this is aside from whether or not we SHOULD have backed such a play.)
There was NO WAY IN H*LL that was going to work. Kennedy was given that assessment and ignored it. (Hmm, Johnson and McNamara play "VietNam". Wonder where they got the idea for the "game"?)
Those poor B*stards were offered up for sacrifice on a "long shot", a crappy, piss-poor gamble.
Kennedy should have never had to step before the nation and take responsibility... BECAUSE any truly compassionate man would not have let the operation even begin. Without overt US support, it was doomed.
He was gambling with their lives for political gain...
Again, I see nothing on the US side in this entire affair that can be considered "admirable.
Nixon? He probably would have ordered them in. They'd most likely have gotten full US support, including air cover.
Would it have succeeded? Would it have failed? Would it have led to escalation with the Russians? Any answers are simply unsupportable speculation.
This, however is true: Had the US actually supported the Cuban Exiles it trained and equipped for the mission, the "invasion" would at least have been launched with a chance of success.
Which would have been the more honorable, more moral path, given that the "invasion" was going to happen in any event?
Those poor B*stards were sacrificed for no good reason... and Kennedy could have stopped it all with one word. "NO".
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Yer right; I'm dancing.
History frankly shows American foriegn policy was hideous.. Guatamala is a good example. And we didn't get any smarter in a hell of a hurry either.
Nonetheless, I still get the willies when my minds eye pictures Nixon in that position.. nukes would have been exchanged, if not in Cuba then, then certainly in Europe some weeks later.
Kennedy dillema was a tough one.. he WANTS to support 'em.. was told that the exile force was the best army in the Americas at the time. He supports the attempt; is generous with materials, training; pretty much everything they needed.. except secrecy; and direct formal US force, which was absolutely oput of the question from jump street in eisenhowers intent and in Kennedys.
Yah; yer right; all he had to say was NO. And he did. Many times, on many occasions right up to DDay. The Exiles just never believed him. Their cadres, their trainers, their CIA supporters.. all of 'em thought that Kennedy would back 'em up when they hit the beaches, that there would be airstrikes...
Kennedy's moral stength lies in doing what was right for the Nation... not what was right for those exiles pinned on the beaches.
I guess you could say the same 'ol Dicky Boy.. he couldn't save the loyal Vietnamiese..
And he didn't save the Hmong in Laos...
Bush didn't even try to save the Kurds..
Seems to be a lotta this goin around, enh?
(hey, I'm dancing as fast as I can. :D )
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Horsepuckey. You're going to have to dance WAY FASTER.
Kennedy's "dilemma" wasn't a dilemma.
1. The invasion won't succeed without US aircover (at a minimum).
2. Kennedy, like Eisenhower before him (and most likely Nixon as well, schooled at Ike's knee in this affair) will NOT allow overt US involvement, particularly naval and air support.
3. Therefore, the invasion is doomed to failure (and Kennedy had that assessment from several sources and it's recorded that he decided to ignore them).
4. Doomed to failure, DON'T GO.
Real, real farkin' simple. That's a dilemma for the man that wrote "Profiles in Courage". Nice try, dance faster.
He might have said No here and there but he DIDN'T when it really counted.
What was right for the Nation was to stay the fark out of Cuba's internal affairs. He didn't have the moral strength to do that, either.
Nixon vis-a-vis the VietNamese and Hmong?
You know history better than that, so don't make me drag it all out here. WHO sent the US troops into VietNam in force? WHO was that?
Nixon RAN on getting us out. NIXON was not the guy that gave the "GO" signal on our involvement, was NOT the guy that initially encouraged the Hmong. Was not the guy that initially told the Viets, "hey, don't worry.. we're with ya all the way."
WHO DID THOSE THINGS? Yeah, you already know the answer.
Nixon extricated us. It wasn't pretty and it didn't turn out to be "with honor" in my book. But he was left a pretty sh*tty hand by... WHO? McNamara WHO? Lyndon WHO? Kennedy WHO?
Oh, yeah.. the same guys that didn't have the moral fortitude to NOT send in the Cuban Exiles.
Forget blaming VietNam on Nixon, Hang. It's a cheap shot and you know it.
Kurds and Bush? Another fubar. All you can say is thanks to the "no-fly zones" they aren't getting hit with chemical weapons anymore by their benevolent President in Baghdad. 10 years of not getting hit with nerve gas.. well, it's something. Not much, but something.
Dance.
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Nope; no cigar. It's a popular mis-conception tho. Ike got us into Vietnam. Not Kennedy. Wasn't HIS sack of toejam!
From Ike's Bio: (http://www.americanpresident.org/KoTrain/Courses/DE/DE_In_Brief.htm)
In foreign policy, Eisenhower fostered what became known as "brinkmanship," or the policy of taking the nation to the brink of war in confronting the Soviets. He relied on the threat of massive retaliation and the threat of first use of nuclear weapons to fight communist aggression. He also authorized secret actions by the newly formed Central Intelligence Agency in so-called third world countries. Furthermore, Eisenhower worked to create non-communist alliances to encircle the Soviet Union and China (NATO, SEATO, The Baghdad Pact). Covert operations by the CIA put the Shah into power in Iran, prevented distribution of land in Guatemala that would have cut U.S. fruit profits and deposed a leftist government, and began planning for the removal of Fidel Castro in Cuba. After the French surrendered in Vietnam, Eisenhower established a puppet South Vietnamese government in Saigon, a move that would eventually suck the U.S. into the Vietnam War. Keeping his campaign promise of 1953, Ike ended the Korean War by negotiating a cease-fire in which Korea was divided at the 38th parallel.
Heeheheee; Two-steppin, and I ain't from Texas. Speakin of Texas, LBJ was the guy yer thinkin of... Kennedy never had a chance to REALLY mess the place up. :D
Like the Bay of Pigs, more debris from Ike's nasty Foreign Policy Program.
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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I just lit your Cigar and am smoking it now. Have you always smoked these El Cheapos?
Truman sent the first US troops to the area. I think I can still find it on the web, if you like. :)
http://members.tripod.com/paulrparker/namhist/ (http://members.tripod.com/paulrparker/namhist/)
"September 26, 1945 - The first American death in Vietnam occurs, during the unrest in Saigon, as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death, Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam, stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."
There ya go. :)
Eisenhower did keep a small MAAG group of US forces there training the Viets. This was ALWAYS <50 IIRC.
"more debris from Ike's nasty Foreign Policy Program"
Say WHAT?
January 20, 1961"Kennedy is inaugurated as the 35th U.S. President and declares "...we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to insure the survival and the success of liberty."
The party really starts under Kennedy; Ike never did ANYTHING like what Kennedy did.
"May 1961 - President Kennedy sends 400 American Green Beret 'Special Advisors' to South Vietnam to train South Vietnamese soldiers in methods of 'counter-insurgency' in the fight against Viet Cong guerrillas."
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He gets "real good" advice fromt the same clowns that hosed the Cuban Exiles:
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"October 1961 - To get a first-hand look at the deteriorating military situation, top Kennedy aides, Maxwell Taylor and Walt Rostow, visit Vietnam. "If Vietnam goes, it will be exceedingly difficult to hold Southeast Asia," Taylor reports to the President and advises Kennedy to expand the number of U.S. military advisors and to send 8000 combat soldiers.
Defense Secretary McNamara and the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommend instead a massive show of force by sending six divisions (200,000 men) to Vietnam. However, the President decides against sending any combat troops."
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Good move by JFK but he still can't figure it out. MacArthur told him, IIRC; he just wouldn't listen.
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"October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."
President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations. Kennedy justifies the expanding U.S. military role as a means "...to prevent a Communist takeover of Vietnam which is in accordance with a policy our government has followed since 1954." The number of military advisors sent by Kennedy will eventually surpass 16,000."
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Want to talk about Diem and how/why he died?
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"November 2, 1963 - At 3 a.m., one of Diem's aides betrays his location to the generals. The hunt for Diem and Nhu now begins. At 6 a.m., Diem telephones the generals. Realizing the situation is hopeless, Diem and Nhu offer to surrender from inside a Catholic church. Diem and Nhu are then taken into custody by rebel officers and placed in the back of an armored personnel carrier. While traveling to Saigon, the vehicle stops and Diem and Nhu are assassinated.
At the White House, a meeting is interrupted with the news of Diem's death. According to witnesses, President Kennedy's face turns a ghostly shade of white and he immediately leaves the room. Later, the President records in his private diary, "I feel that we must bear a good deal of responsibility for it."
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Oh, yes... Profiles in Courage indeed. Diem's death, brought to you by the same folks that offered up the Cuban Exiles for sacrifice.
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"December 24, 1964 - By year's end, the number of American military advisors in South Vietnam is 23,000."
December 27, 1966 - By year's end, U.S. troop levels reach 389,000 with 5008 combat deaths and 30,093 wounded.
December 23, 1967 - By year's end, U.S. troop levels reach 463,000 with 16,000 combat deaths to date.
November 27, 1968 By year's end, U.S. troop levels reached 495,000 with 30,000 American deaths to date. In 1968, over a thousand a month were killed.
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Mr. Nixon's war? NOT HARDLY. He's handed a fubared war, ROE by Robert Dickhead McNamara (remember him, Cuban Exiles ring any bells?) with 1000 American kids dying a month.
Mr. Nixon's war? LOL.
What's the first thing Nixon did?
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January 1, 1969 - Henry Cabot Lodge, former American ambassador to South Vietnam, is nominated by President-elect Nixon to be the senior U.S negotiator at the Paris peace talks.
January 20, 1969
- Richard M. Nixon is inaugurated as the 37th U.S. President and declares "...the greatest honor history can bestow is the title of peacemaker. This honor now beckons America..." He is the fifth President coping with Vietnam and had successfully campaigned on a pledge of "peace with honor."
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Mr. Nixon's war? Jaysus, Hang... you gotta be shortin' me! Kennedy got us in, Johnson compounded the error and Nixon drug us out covered with sh*t... but out nonetheless.
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But ... But ... But ... Dem dern facts always take the fun out of a good argument! :) :D :)
Hang you should need a good laugh right now so ... Prolly nothing. :D
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: MrBill ]
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Oh; horsepucky... what was it we were arguing about; anyway...
Jeeze; Toad.. it was still Eisenhowers war; not Kennedys.. like I said; he just inherited it. And yah missed Eisenhowers rather fancy dancing regarding the French.. oh; no; no OVERT support... but Air America was there in force, supplying the French that got their tits in the wringer up North against Unca Ho.
When the French pulled out; into the big sucking vaccum steps the good 'ol USA, propping up that fediddlein dipshit crook Diem. Also an Eisenhower program!
And what does ol Tricky Dick do, once LBJ messes the place up real good??
Invades Cambodia.
"Peace with Honor" Not hardly.
Sheesh. How's THAT for a fulfilled campaign promise?
Oh... and thats NOT a cigar yer smokin. :D
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Hang, quit sucking on that "JFK was a Saint" memorial bong.
Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, first recognized the Bao Dai puppet-French government.
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"February 1950 - The United States and Britain recognize Bao Dai's French-controlled South Vietnam government."
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Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, sent the first massive aid to the French to help them fight in Vietnam. Remember as you read this that Ike didn't take office until January 20, 1953.
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July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.
"American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French."
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Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, sent the first US "advisors" to VietNam.
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"September 27, 1950 - The U.S. establishes a Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) in Saigon to aid the French Army."
"8-3-1950 35 US personnel arrive, announce formation of MAAG (Military Assistance and Advisory Group, Vietnam
1951 - General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, new French commander, goes to Washington to request more aid; receives 130,000 tons of new equip between 9-51 and Feb 52:53 million rounds of ammo, 8000 vehicles, 200 aircraft, 3500 radios, 14,000 automatic weapons,
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If anything is attributable to IKE, it would be that he continued TRUMAN'S policy of monetary support of the French, TRUMAN'S policy of the MAAG to the French and TRUMAN'S policy of clandestine support.
Now, answer this Hang:
Who was the FIRST President to authorize US troops to engage in Combat in VietNam?
"October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."
President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations.
Nice Red Herring on Ike though.
:)
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Did we get into a Demashit vs Repblishit mode?
Damn; they are all amazinhunks. But; if we were to compare amazinhunks, I'd have to say that the republishit variety stank a whole lot more.
But that's another thread. :D
I just happen to despise 'ol Tricky Dick and who's ticket he ran on matters not a whit. Same goes for that moron LBJ; gawd what a fediddlein idiot that guy was. Kennedy really never had a chance to get in the game... and I doubt seriously he'da been as as big a diddlyup on Vietnam as LBJ or Dickyboy was.
Which changes this lil detail not a whit... it wasn't "Kennedy's War".
Nice twitch runnin to the 'democrat' thing tho. Truman, enh?? That was sweet. :)
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Sorry, Hang.
Advance in another direction, because the overwhelming forces of History have you surrounded.
Truman started the MAAG with 35 guys but I haven't (as yet) found the max number under Truman before Ike took over. I suspect it could have been 342, which was a Geneva Accord limitation.
It is documented that under Ike, MAAG advisors were 342 in 1954. By 1961, MAAG's strength, had increased to 692 persons. I have been unable to document the progress of that increase, but it's clear that when Kennedy took over, this is about where the US troop strength was.
In any event, Kennedy is the guy who put Regular US troops into combat situations in VietNam. Absolutely incontrovertible fact. Under his direct authority, Regular US troops in VietNam went up to 16,000+. In combat.
Kennedy started it. Period.
What would have happened if he lived? Nobody knows. Would he have pulled out? Would he have escalated? His bright boy, McNamara, was ALWAYS for escalation. Kennedy seemed to listen to that dipsh*t in the same way that LBJ did. Cost a lot of US families their sons, that bastige.
You are right in that it wasn't a Dem/Repub thing. They all screwed the pooch. Indirect involvement did start with Truman, continued with Ike. (Remember the thread about Washinton's Farewell address? He was so RIGHT. Stay the fork out of other countries squabbles and internal affairs.)
Direct Combat Involvement of US Regulars started with Kennedy. Sorry, chum, you can't argue History. That's the way it was.
In his brief tenure, he screwed the Cuban Exiles ("just say NO"), totally sold out Diem (crook that Diem was, he didn't deserve what he got from Kennedy's administration) and sent US Regular troops into combat in VietNam. Not bad for 1000 days of "Camelot"... and these are only the ones we've discussed so far.
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Ahh Nixon...
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/soa/chile.htm (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/soa/chile.htm)
:D