Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on August 09, 2001, 09:20:00 AM
-
Jerusalem Restaurant Bomb Kills 18
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010809/ts/mideast_dc_15.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010809/ts/mideast_dc_15.html)
And they expect to gain what with actions like these? And Israel will be protrayed as the bad guys when they retaliate...
Seems "peace" for Palestine isn't until everyone in Israel is dead. They are a government out of control, if you can call the terrorist bum Yasser Arafat's gang a government. Israel is crazy if they think they can talk sense with this current group.
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/arafat11.jpg)
This idiot couldn't govern a bunch of nuns let alone a country of crazed lunatics, sad.
-
As if it were that simple...
-
well this suicide fanatics are not interested in ANY peace project. They simply dont want Israel at all. They will go suicide bombing until the last Israeli is gone.
Arafat ? the fanatics dont care about him.
You know, theyr religion says, die fightging Israel and you have the ticket for paradise for sure.
This will never end, sad but true.
-
There's plenty of savages on both sides of the fence in this one.
Don't worry, I'm sure the UN will step in and instantly solve all the problems in the near future. :D
-
savages ?
yes but from which side ?
-
Originally posted by SwampRat:
...funny how people forget. Back in the 70's, Arafat publicly stated that he would not rest until every Israeli was dead. This guy and his cohorts have no intention of "peace" in the middle east, to believe so is just plain dumb.
With all my dislike for Arafat for his past sins, I am pretty sure he is not behind the violence and his (and Israel) only concern would be that he is not murdered and replaced by some radical fanatic. He has to pay them some lip service so that he is not killed outright - US and Israeli government understand that.
He does not have much power or any control over the radical movements who are responcible for the violence.
miko
-
Israel and Palestinians remind me of two kids in the back seat of the station wagon.
Kid 1: "He started it!"
Kid 2: "No, HE started it!!!"
What they need is a spanking. US needs to "stop this car and come back there." :)
-
Originally posted by Eagler:
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/arafat11.jpg)
I always wondered what Ringo Star was doing after the beatles broke up, but I had no idea!!!
Udie
-
yeah those dirty filthy savage animals!
(remember your opinion-conditioning boys and girls: it's ok to call palestinians savages, just not jews. that's the rules. you see, calling a palestinian a savage means that you are a big tough truck drivin' manly man, who eats apple pie, loves the lord jesus savior christ, and is a proud flag waving 'murcan. whereas calling the jews animals means you are a stinky nazi.)
-
Originally posted by funkedup:
Israel and Palestinians remind me of two kids in the back seat of the station wagon.
Kid 1: "He started it!"
Kid 2: "No, HE started it!!!"
What they need is a spanking. US needs to "stop this car and come back there." :)
except that every time palestine says "he started it" they kill 18 or so jews as well as one of their own.
I wonder what any other country would do against another that has terror bombed them for over 20 yrs. I'm suprised it hasn't blown up into full scale war in so long, that tells me that Isreal does want peace. Every time Isreal meets one of the Palestinian demands, the PLO comes back with 2 or 3 more. How many years did it take Palestine to take out the part of their charter that called for the destruction of the jewish state? Did they even realy take it out?
BTW, I'm not flaming or disagreing with you Funked, just quoted your post to use your "kids" as a segway into my post :D
Udie
-
These guys can't let anything go. If one side bombs, the other *must* retaliate. Its like a sad duel where the loosing team insists on the last kick. Then, wonders in dismay why they are getting kicked back for kicking.
There isn't a simple solution for it, despite all the land trading and such. I think the Israelis have done a vastly better job of doing what they say and meaning it versus Arafat's clowns. Point is, despite all the masquerading and speaches, they don't want Israel, and its their little holy war to destroy it. They can shake hands, give up some land or whatever, but the point of the issue is that when the sun sets on that agreement, its back to square one.
<shrug> pretty sad place in the world to live.
-
mrfish
I don't see them as jews and non jews, I see them as human beings. I think the ppl of Palestine would gain the worlds sympathy & respect if they resort to peaceful demonstrations and other civilized forms of communication. The first step would be the leader(s) of Palestine denouncing such voilence and arresting the crazies as would be done in any other civilized country. That being impossible, as he'd be shot before he finished that speech, I can only judge what I see - a civilized country (one that's allied with the US)fighting an uncivilized one (one that shouts "death to America" -everytime a tv camera is thrust in their face). If the tables were turned I'd be on the side of Palestine, jewish or not..
LePaul
I don't think they directly retaliated for the last night club bombing. A missile up the arse of a known terrorist as he drives down the road doesn't equal blowing the crap out of a restaurant full of innocents. Can you imagine if Israel blew up a crowded store, bus, restaurant full of innocent ppl? The entire world would be screaming for their heads, but it's accepted by many when the other side does it...
here's an interesting link showing the Palestine side:
http://mail.jmcc.org/media/reportonline/ (http://mail.jmcc.org/media/reportonline/)
be sure to check out the segment "our axe to grind" - seems they have it out for just about everyone or anything that doesn't agree with their agenda..
-
Eagler,
even since i was a little kid, i remember the pictures of poor palestinians. World's pity is nice, but it is yet to translate into action.
They are being actively pushed out of their houses. More and more as the "settlements" are made larger and larger.
The bombings you see are vain ( and stupid in my opinion ) attempts at palestinians to defend their country.
You yourself stated that you need to have a gun at home to protect your freedom, right ?
Well, their land and livehood is being taken away from them, so they are defending it the best they can against overwhelming force.
Franly, i feel that Sharon has more of an axe to grind then anyone else. He started the whole mess to jack perez out of his seat and succedded. Now, he's going to be a war hero...
As for that link, axe to grind thing: they are pointing out some common media misconeptions in the media. One per month. Compared to the number of complaints they could make - i think they are being VERY slow and convervative... they could update that page every 1 hour :)
-
I wonder what any other country would do against another that has terror bombed them for over 20 yrs. I'm suprised it hasn't blown up into full scale war in so long, that tells me that Isreal does want peace.
They could do what Britain did when a wave of money and weapons enabled the IRA to resart their campaign of terrorism in the late 60s and early 70s. ie, very little, and let the conflict de-escalate. At one time, the IRA was perfectly happy planting bombs in pubs and railway stations, killing dozens at a time. With no major response from Britain, that got less acceptable, and it's now politicaly un-acceptable for even the most extreme groups like the real IRA.
If Britain had done what Israel does, and sent over fighters and Helicoptor gunships to bomb targets in Ireland, and attacked Irish police stations etc, Britain would still be suffering attacks like the Birmingham pub bombings and Harrods bomb.
Is anyone suprised that this attack happened? Israel has been using it's airpower to attack the Palestinians a lot recently. It looked like they were trying to provoke a response, now they've got it. Anyone want to bet a lot more Palestinians will die over the next few days than Israeli's did today?
-
man, reading these responses all i can say is we need to put more money into education in this country. there are definitley a few unattended leafblowers somewhere in the states right now.
-
Wow, some people's grasp of history really comes up short. The trouble in the Middle East didn't just began 20 years ago with the PLA -- Zionist terrorist organizations like the Irgun and Stern Gang were conducting assassinations and terror bombings well before Israel became a state, so the current Palestinians have a successful model to go by when seeking statehood.
As has already been pointed out on other threads, the creation of a state of Israel in Palestine was not a foregone conclusion until Jewish refugees flooded the region following World War Two, moving its Jewish population from a distinctly minority position to one that could force its will on the region through sufficient numbers and superior military sophistication. From the United Nations standpoint, supporting the establishment of state of Israel was a matter of guilt and convenience and not some preordained, and divine, act of natural order. The state of Israel is about as natural as the former Yugoslavia was in the Balkans.
To be fair, what Israel has done and is doing is really little different from what many countries (including the United States) have done in the past where the land they covet is occupied by others lacking sufficient power to conventionally resist their territorial ambitions. Zionists have been ruthless about achieving their ambition since before the state of Israel was founded (which we should remember wasn't all that long ago, since there are people playing this game who are likely older than the state of Israel). The Israeli olive branch, where Palestinians are concerned, is more of a club held in one hand and a few second-class concessions in the other -- take the concessions or pay the price. Zionists coined a term, "The Iron Wall," in the 1920 for dealing with Palestinians from a position of unassailable strength, which remains a cornerstone of Israeli policy to this day. Oddly, organized Zionism that centered on the creation of a Jewish state did not really develop until the turn of the century, and even then Palestine was only one of many areas under consideration since it happened to be full of Palestinians at the time. Large underdeveloped parts of Argentina were seen as being far more practical, but Argentina hardly had the emotional appeal of the biblical homeland.
In the United States we have received a fairly one-sided view of the establishment and continuing development of the state of Israel. I am not referring to the rather laughable contention among the anti-Semites and neo-Nazi types that there's some "Zionist occupation government," controlling the media and filtering what we see and hear. I will contend, however, that defenders of Israel (such as the JDL) are extraordinarily quick to use the anti-Semite card to silence critics, along with a continued push to somehow give Israel cart blanche to do as it pleases because of real, but unrelated, suffering during the Holocaust. Ironically, it's the lessons of the Holocaust, and of territorial aggression in general during World War Two, that have helped change the acceptability of countries doing what Israel is today.
Israel and its supporters are masters at public relations and have been astonishingly successful at getting its side of the story out. This is not just my opinion, the editorial staff at the Chicago Tribune and other news outlets have discussed the media failure to cover the Palestinian side of the story during recent soul-searching. Further, as foreign correspondent William Paff noted, Zionists like Ariel Sharon are less careful about playing up the security message when they are not pushing that propaganda in the United States. After all, Israel is a nuclear power with a conventional military that is second to none in the region.
At a recent interview with the Hebrew-language Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz and another interview in Le Figaro (a Paris daily) Sharon was quite clear about Israel's continuing Zionist ambitions. Among his quotes: "... people today are not much excited by the idea of gaining a 'Hectare and then another Hectare for Israel' -- but for me, that's still exciting." In another statement Sharon clarified that Israel would not evacuate its existing settlements for Zionist reasons, even in the Gaza. The strategic importance of these colonies was also cited (water table, etc.) but not the "Israel is under attack" security reasons that are played up in the in the United States.
So yes, Palestinian terrorists who kill innocent people are monsters, but there been plenty of Zionist monsters leading from the 1930's until today. A look at the casualty figures shows exactly how one-sided the current terrorism has been in Israel. I fail to see the distinction between a 155mm artillery shell or 105mm tank round fired indiscriminately into a civilian population center for intimidation purposes, and a suicide bomb detonated for much the same reason. Particularly since Israel's claim to the territory seems far less reasonable than that of people who can claim the ownership of the property in question (not some biblical ownership, but real ‘land deed’ ownership) back a hundreds of years or more before 1948.
There was some horrid video months ago of a Palestinian crowd killing several Israeli police officials in a brutal act of violence. However, that scene reminded me of another one from 1947 showing two British soldiers, both 20 years old. Clifford Martin and Mervin Paice were kidnapped by the Irgun, as a reprisal for two Zionist terrorists put to death by Israeli authorities. Zionist terrorists had claimed nearly 400 victims by that time, including a bombing at the King David Hotel that killed 91 Britons, Arabs and Jews. These two British soldiers were hanged in a eucalyptus grove, and their bodies booby trapped. I imagine that their families, even today, have a fairly clear understanding of the true scope of terrorism in the Middle East.
Charon
P.S.
Unfortunately, the anti-Semite/ neo-Nazi crowd jump on the opportunities Israel provides and help discredit any discussion on these subjects by linking the acts committed by the state of Israel to Judaism as whole. For my own credibility, and to disassociate myself from these morons, while I strongly disagree with Israeli policy I am certainly not an anti-Semite -- my Jewish fiancée would have likely caught on in the past five years and I likely wouldn't agree to a rabbi officiating at the ceremony, no matter how reformed he is :)
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
-
Charon
thanks for the informative post.
"There was some horrid video months ago of a Palestinian crowd killing several Israeli police officials in a brutal act of violence. However, that scene reminded me of another one from 1947 showing two British soldiers, both 20 years old. Clifford Martin and Mervin Paice were kidnapped by the Irgun, as a reprisal for two Zionist terrorists put to death by Israeli authorities. Zionist terrorists had claimed nearly 400 victims by that time, including a bombing at the King David Hotel that killed 91 Britons, Arabs and Jews. These two British soldiers were hanged in a eucalyptus grove, and their bodies booby trapped. I imagine that their families, even today, have a fairly clear understanding of the true scope of terrorism in the Middle East."
why can't the Palestine authorities follow suit and arrest, convict and punish their terrorist?
-
Clifford Martin and Mervin Paice were kidnapped by the Irgun, as a reprisal for two Zionist terrorists put to death by Israeli authorities.
Charon
-------------
why can't the Palestine authorities follow suit and arrest, convict and punish their terrorist?
Eagler
Thanks for catching this Eagler. It's an editorial truism that you can't proof your own work :) It should read "...put to death by British authorities." (who had mandate control over Palestine at the time and were the authority in charge). Many of these Zionist terrorists are today accepted as national heroes.
Charon
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
-
Sharon was itching for a fight, so he went and visited a temple, knowing it'd annoy the Palestines.
The Palestines were equally as annoyed with the slow pace and all the compromises in the peace deal and was quick to take it as an excuse to start a violent uprising.
Of course, I'm talking the last year alone, not the total history of the region.
If I had to choose between a side that uses suicide bombers killing civilians and a side that surgically target individuals their intelligence agency has determined is involved in such bombing attacks, my choice wouldn't that hard.
Of course, the real situation is far more complex than that. The Palestines were driven out of the region (which was controlled by whom? :)) and Sharon isn't a man of peace.
Still, I think the situation can get far worse. Unfortunately, I think it will too.
-
Sharon was itching for a fight, so he went and visited a temple, knowing it'd annoy the Palestines.
I'm still completely puzzled as to why Sharon did that. What purpose other than to stir the pot could it serve?
-
Toad > yes let UN handle it jsut the way they did back in 1967, when Nasser was in control?
Charon you have very agressive rightwing views.
you need to get your facts straight
JDL (Jewish Defense League) is banned in Israel and has nothing to do with ISRAEL itself. JDL was formed to prevent attacks from latinamericans (most from P. Rico) on the jewish community in NYC.
(in short that is)
News of the day:
PA chairman Arafat knew the group before the bombing, Israel handed over a list of known ppl they wanted to send to jail.
Last night bombing could have been prevented
read more at http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/08/10/LatestNews/LatestNews.32344.html (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/08/10/LatestNews/LatestNews.32344.html)
So dont give me the crap Arafat couldnt prevent the bombing.
I will respond to the rest of your thread you posted charon later today to make sure ppl know the truth and nothing but the truth.
Peter
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Fjoder ]
-
good points Charon
-
What Charon said......
-
Ariel Sharon; War Criminal ? (http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,299293-412,00.shtml)
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - A Belgian judge has opened an investigation of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for alleged crimes against humanity in a 1982 massacre of hundreds of Palestinians, a judicial spokesman said on Monday.
Examining Judge Patrick Collignon opened the investigation after finding merit in two complaints filed against Sharon for his alleged role in the killing of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, said Josef Colpin, spokesman for the public prosecutor's office in Brussels.
The investigation was to determine whether there is enough evidence to press charges against Sharon, Colpin said.
The complaints, filed earlier this month by Lebanese and Palestinian survivors of the massacre, accuse Sharon of war crimes and genocide under a relatively new Belgian law allowing its courts to prosecute foreigners for human rights abuses committed outside the country.
The maximum punishment for the crimes is life imprisonment.
Chibli Mallat, a Lebanese lawyer who filed one of the complaints on behalf of 23 survivors, hailed the decision.
"It is an important day for the victims of Sabra and Shatila," he told Reuters in Beirut on Saturday after initial reports of the decision.
Mehdi Abbes, a Brussels lawyer who filed the second complaint on behalf of at least five survivors, said the opening of the investigation was the first step in a long process.
"We have a long road ahead of us," he told Reuters on Monday, referring to the amount of time that Collignon would need to do the investigation. "It isn't going to done in 30 days."
A landmark Belgian trial earlier this year of four Rwandans for involvement in their country's 1994 genocide occurred six years after an examining judge opened his investigation into complaints brought against them.
The trial, which led to the conviction of all four, was the first to apply the law and has since led to the filing of a slew of complaints in Brussels against figures ranging from Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to Ivory Coast President Laurent Gbagbo.
The complaints against Sharon, dismissed by a Sharon lawyer as a political stunt, have increased pressure on the Israeli leader as he prepares an official trip to Europe this week.
In 1983, an Israeli state inquiry found Sharon, then defense minister, indirectly responsible for the killing of hundreds of men, women and children at Sabra and Shatila camps during Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
Israeli soldiers allowed allied Lebanese Christian militiamen to enter the camps, ostensibly to search for Palestinian gunmen. The massacre continued for two days while Israeli troops surrounded the camps.
________________
Maybe he could share a room with Milosevic ?
-
Palestinians Vow to Step Up Revolt After HQ Seized
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010810/ts/mideast_dc_29.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010810/ts/mideast_dc_29.html)
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010810/mdf35201.jpg)
Palestine Military Targets
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010810/mdf35174.jpg)
Israeli Military Targets
Big difference to me...
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
-
Charon you have very agressive rightwing views.
you need to get your facts straight
JDL (Jewish Defense League) is banned in Israel and has nothing to do with ISRAEL itself. JDL was formed to prevent attacks from latinamericans (most from P. Rico) on the jewish community in NYC.
(in short that is)
Peter
I stand corrected. I was in a bit of a hurry, even for such a long post, and should have seen that I typed in JDL instead of ADL (like my previous typo where I typed in Israeli instead of British). My position on the ADL comes from activities such as the following:
Earning My Living as a Writer: The Year ADL Changed My Job Description
by Grace Halsell
Washington Report On Middle East Affairs - October 1996, pg. 20
When I made my first journey to Jerusalem in 1979, I had earned my living as a writer for 37 years. I always thought I was lucky, being able to sell articles and pay my way around -- and around -- the world. I lived as a writer in Europe, the Far East and South America. I also went as a writer to cover the conflicts in Korea, Vietnam and Bosnia. For most of my life, I've reported what I saw with my own eyes and what others on the scene told me.
Since I have earned my living as a writer since my high school days, it came as a surprise to learn that a Jewish organization chose, unilaterally and arbitrarily, to classify me not as a reporter, journalist or writer but rather as a propagandist.ä What prompted one organization to assume the authority of changing my job description?
I was one of 34 persons identified as propagandists in A Handbook, 1983 -- First Edition, put out by a Jewish organization, the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (ADL). While the others on the list undoubtedly would think of themselves as professional persons -- doctors, lawyers, heads of organizations -- in the ADL listing they, like me, become propagandists. We were singled out for one purpose: we've said that as regards the Arab-Israeli conflict, there are two sides of the story -- and that most Americans know only one.
Our sin, in the eyes of the Jewish ADL, is having disseminated Pro-Arab Propaganda in America. Although the ADL champions the cause of justice for all Jews, it apparently does not condone others speaking of justice for Palestinians.
Looking at the ADL Handbook, I am left wondering: how widely has it been circulated? If any of those listed in the Handbook apply for a job, will a boss clear their names with the ADL? Is the Handbook used as a guide for pro-Israeli editors not to print articles written by anyone the ADL terms a propagandist? Is it a guide for pro-Israeli lecture agents to refrain from sponsoring any speaker who mentions the plight of Palestinians? Is the action taken by the ADL intended to set us aside, to mark us for life with a brand of their choosing?
As a child, I often heard my father relate how, in the frontier days before fenced-in property, he heated over open flames an iron rod and put a brand on cattle. Later, living through the Second World War, I learned that the Nazis branded individuals by forcing them to wear yellow arm bands. The arm bands were used to brand Jews, gypsies and other so-called enemies of the state as different, suspect, not reliable, unsuitable. In its Handbook, the ADL also chooses to set individuals apart.
The intent is to suggest that we are suspect, unreliable.
Unlike branded cattle, I do not suffer the pain of burning flesh. Nor am I forced to wear a yellow arm band. Since I suffer no physical abuse, is it fair at all to make an analogy with those who endured torture worse than death and of the multitude of others who indeed were killed? Compared with those tragedies, the ADL listing of individuals in a handbook may seem innocent and non-invasive. Yet, while the dissemination of such a handbook is done professionally, with skill, sophistication and subtle use of pejoratives, the intent seems clear: it is to suggest that we differ from the norm, that we are suspect, unreliable, not given to write or relate what we see with veracity.
The ADL Handbook targeted a medical doctor, a former U.S. senator, 10 university professors and 3 attorneys. It listed a half-dozen men of Jewish heritage: Rabbi Elmer Berger, Edmund R. Hanauer, Mark Lane, Alfred M. Lilienthal, Haviv Schieber and Israel Shahak. And it named 23 Arab Americans presumably guilty of being pro-Arab.
In addition to individuals, the ADL Handbook also targeted 31 organizations. In this listing, 17 were committed to giving the Palestinian side of the story. These organizations, in their financial resources, membership and over-all influence and impact on American society, may be likened to a grain of sand in the vast sea of huge, wealthy pro-Israel groups that operate throughout the United States.
Since the pro-Israel organizations are so vast and successful in their endeavors and the pro-Arab groups so small and largely ineffectual, why did an influential Jewish organization, one of the wealthiest and most powerful in America, go on the attack? In the ADL Handbook preface, it explained that after the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Israel began to get bad publicity:
The nightly television news which brought pictures of death and destruction directly from Lebanese battlefields, and the print media with its exaggerated casualty figures created fertile ground for the latest propaganda campaign characterizing Israel as a militaristic, brutal and oppressive nation.
Blaming the Messenger
The ADL gave no rebuttal to charges that Israel in its invasion of Lebanon was acting as a militaristic, brutal and oppressive nation. Rather than investigate the charges, the ADL investigated those who called attention to the wrong. It blamed the print media with its exaggerated casualty figures. Generally, the press reported that the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon killed and wounded some 200,000 people, most of them civilians. The ADL in its Handbook, found no fault with the invasion itself, only what it termed exaggerated casualty figures.
The Handbook's purpose, ADL reported in its preface, is to identify the leading individuals and organizations who have mounted this and previous propaganda campaigns targeted against Israel.ä If the massacre simply were not reported, the Handbook seems to imply, Israel and its supporters would have had no problems with the massacre itself.
One result of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon was Israel slicing off a portion of Lebanon which became known as Israel's security zone. The Handbook pointed out, however, that criticism of Israel started much earlier on than the invasion of Lebanon, and in fact, the criticism started at the very beginning of the Jewish state:
Shortly after the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948, the preface said, there were those questioning the basic legality of the infant state. Indeed, most American Jews at that time did not support Zionism nor its goal to take land from Palestinians. In 1967, after Israel initiated a new war, seizing military control of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, critics of Israel, the Handbook said,promoted the myth of an oppressive, imperialistic Israel seeking to expand her borders from the Jordan to the Euphrates.
Again, the Handbook, while claiming that the descriptive terms are myth, gave no evidence that refuted an aggressive, imperialistic Israel -- one that was dramatically and successfully executing a plan to expand her borders. Rather than being a myth, it was, especially for the victims, a tragic reality.
In the wake of the Camp David accords, the preface continued, champions of Palestinian rights began calling attention to issues they claimed had been overlooked by the 1979 peace treaty signed between Egypt and Israel. Charging the Jewish state with gross human rights violations -- including torture, educational and economic repression of the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza, the propagandists stepped up their campaign aimed at discrediting Israel in the eyes of the American public.
Here again, rather than deal with the accusations -- that Israel engages in gross human rights violations -- including torture, and educational and economic repression of the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza the Handbook attacked not what might be at fault, worthy of ADL's own investigation, but rather those who expose the wrongs.
By branding those who say Israel engages in gross human rights violations as suspect characters, the ADL hopes that others will see the charges as a myth, coming from persons not so pure as the rest of society.
Now was Ms. Halsell some Aggressive rightwing nut like me? Well, you can be the judge. This same woman wrote Soul Sister, based upon her experiences as a “black” woman. Here’s the full story:
In the late 1960s, Grace Halsell was working as a staff writer in the White House for President Johnson. One day she overheard Zephyr Wright, LBJ's favorite cook and the only black woman working in the White House, telling of her travail driving to and from Texas. Once, when President Johnson was senator, he asked her to take two dogs along. "You have no idea," she told him, what it is like for a Negro to try and get a decent motel room--and you are asking me to take two dogs?"
Hearing that story, Grace Halsell wondered what it was like to live as a black woman.
Leaving her White House job, and the prestige and money that went with it, she consulted with dermatologists at Yale and Howard universities. She then took a medication and exposed her body to intense tropical sun. Day by day her skin darkened. One day, she recalled later, "I looked in the mirror and saw a 'black' woman looking back at me."
After living in Harlem, she went to Mississippi, where she found all facilities and institutions totally segregated. Black families, who knew she was white passing as black, took her into their homes and helped her to find jobs. She frequently stood on a Jackson, Mississippi street corner, waiting for a white woman who, through an agency, had hired her for the day. There were no jobs other than working as a maid, and the pay was never more than $5 a day.
Soul Sister is Grace Halsell's account of her experiences living as a black in the era of segregation, when racism was sanctified by law in many states, cities and towns of America. Soul Sister was republished in a1999 30th anniversary edition with a new introduction by the author.
I rather think, and I believe people who actually know me would agree, that my social and political orientation are closer to Grace Halsell than, say, David Duke. Further, from an Israeli standpoint I would likely be called a liberal, or would it be revisionist? Of course, this is revisionist in the sense that we have in the US have “revised” our position on the Old West in recent years, to move beyond self-serving justification for our activities to at least consider the fact that there was a native American perspective beyond being on the other end of John Wayne’s Winchester.
Keith
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
-
I'm not taking sides, but in the interest of fairness....
Eagler, where is the picture of the 2 women and 2 children killed by the Israeli helicopter gunships when they took out the 2 Hamas leaders?
Don't over-simplify this arguement. Both side are guilty of killing women and children. Both sanctioned by their respective governments. So in the final analysis, both sides are, in affect, performing government sponsored terrorism.
The sad part for me, is that the Israeli's are doing it with US taxpayer's money. If they want to do that, then don't do it with MY money.
Cobra
-
My point is that the women and child are not targeted by Israel, with them going as far as warning in advance before they take out many of their targets where as Palestine doesn't seem to care who they kill.
Yes, sad to see our tax $ killing innocents anywhere but with the instability of the region, I think it's a choice we really do not have...
Does anyone truly think America would be loved or accepted by our enemies in the region even if we condemned Israel or if Palestine had their way and Israel was totally eliminated from the face of the earth??
-
Originally posted by Eagler:
Does anyone truly think America would be loved or accepted by our enemies in the region even if we condemned Israel or if Palestine had their way and Israel was totally eliminated from the face of the earth??
No, but it sounds fair and it would make me feel better about myself. The same way trading with China does. I mean come on we've learned from history right? Stuff that happened in the last century could never possibly happen again right? We are all so inlightened after all.....
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Udie
-
wow eagler that's pretty cheap. why don't you just say they hate puppies while your at it. it's the same type of rhetorical tactic and i'm sure everyone loves puppies right?
i mean what are we supposed to do? look at the picture of those smiley fresh little faces and burst out sobbing and hating palestinians? are you that easily swayed from the facts? why should you assume we are?
that's one of the biggest problems with americans today - sadly, a picture is usually all it takes and facts take a back seat to sensationalism. the facts zip right by but you'll grab a flag and rifle if someone puts the right picture in front of you...
i was going to post a picture of a rescue worker hauling a headless palestinian baby from one of those 'military targets' but i decided it was in bad taste. it would be cheap rhetoric and despite the fact it would work, it wouldn't contribute any reason to the argument.
however, if sensationalism is your thing mybe you could make a neat collage showing how nearly 4 times as many palestinians have been killed in this violence.
"My point is that the women and child are not targeted by Israel"
- is that what you think? who did the israelis think they would hit when they started firing tank rounds indiscriminately into a palestinian neighborhood? magic rounds that just find the bad guys?
Charon: cudos to you for your factual and balanced piece. it is funny that people are calling you right wing - i think it arises from a cognitive dissonance when people's pop culture ideology meets reality. good luck.
-
Relax, guys.
The newly emerging powerhouse nations will volunteer to lead the UN peacekeeping forces into Gaza.
Because of previous poor performance as the world's cop, US forces will be unable to attend, but will cheer enthusiastically for the "Blue Berets" from the sidelines.
Preliminary estimates are that this operation shouldn't take but a few months. It is predicted that both Israelis and Palestinians will soon be holding joint picnics at the Wailing Wall, singing "Kumbyah, my lord, Kumbyah" and Coke's famous "I'd like to teach the world to sing". With this, the problem is solved and in the immortal words of Billy Boy, the troops "should be home by Christmas."
Unfortunately, the Blue Berets will only get to stay home for the actual holiday week, as they are also needed in Sudan.
As you all know, in 1989, a coup brought a radical regime to Sudan, an Iranian-style theocracy led by Lt. General Omar Hassan al-Bashir and Sheik Hassan al-Turabi, head of the National Islamic Front (NIF). The regime used the deepening crisis caused by the civil war as the pretext for decreeing martial law.
Armed to the hilt by Iran, Iraq, China, and others, Khartoum declared a jihad against the south. The result has been the escalation of one of our century's greatest human tragedies. No southerner, it seems, has been exempt from its horrors. Women have been raped by the tens of thousands, their children torn from their arms and compelled to convert to Islam. Young men have been kidnapped and forced to fight against loved ones. Entire villages and towns have been burned to the ground, their people burned alive or taken into slavery.
An estimated two million people, mostly civilians, have died in Sudan and four million have been displaced in the past 17 years as the result of civil war. Primary responsibility for this devastation belongs to the Sudanese government, a military regime based in the north. The principal victims include the Dinka and Nuer peoples in southern Sudan and the Nuba of central Sudan.
Unfortunately, once again (due to poor past performance), US troops will be forced to sit this one out.
Go, Blue Berets, GO!
-
I can only hope Toad as I feel that is the way this thing is headed. A mideast Vietnam.
Yes, mrfish do love puppies :)
I realize the photos are over simplification of the entire thing. Just to make you think and prod responses that I hope to educate myself as well as others about the entire mess. I wonder why this shelling of Israel tanks into villages isn't reported, photographed & shown as are the Palestine suicide bombings. As I am not there, I can only judge the entire mess on what I see, hear and read from here. I'm interested in what would drive a people to such acts - on both sides...
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
-
Funny how it's the Isreali's that fire into neighborhoods, and not the Palestinian leaders who use their own citizens as "human shields". A matter of perspective I guess...
Udie
-
Israel has built ghettoes, almost similar like Nazi-Germany built in WW2.
I wonder if people of Warsaw, Krakow and Lodz ghettoes would use resistance like this in those days it would piss some Americans just like people of Lebanon do now ?
Wake up guys.
-
Originally posted by Eagler:
I wonder why this shelling of Israel tanks into villages isn't reported, photographed & shown as are the Palestine suicide bombings.
well halelujah, is that the sun peaking through? :)
yeah eagler, i too often wonder why it isn't played up to the same degree. or why there aren't more touching arab heros in our pop culture - plenty of bad guys for chuck norris to straighten out and 'not without my baby' dramas though huh?
the info is there however if you want to see it. if you are already convinced the israelis are good guys then you wont even see this stuff because its usually buried.
here is the text of an article i posted in this forum may 7th '01 from assoc. press. it isn't the one with the sick picture i saw (that was on a palestinian propaganda site) but there are plenty to choose from anyway :
JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli tanks rolled into Palestinian-controlled territory Sunday and pounded houses with artillery as they pursued gunmen who had opened fire on Israeli forces. One Palestinian was killed and 20 were injured in the firefight on Jerusalem's southern fringes.
Also late Sunday, Israeli tanks fired shells on the West Bank city of Tulkarem in response to shooting from the area on an army position, the army and Palestinian witnesses said. Eight Palestinians were wounded, one seriously, in the shelling,
Palestinian doctors said.
At least 20 Palestinians were hurt, according to the Beit Jalla hospital. The wounded included a 5-year-old boy seriously injured by shrapnel, and an 11-year-old girl with a patch over her eye and drops of dried blood on her blue-and-white school uniform. The Israeli army said one of its soldiers was lightly injured
Gilo is built on land Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Mideast War and later declared part of Jerusalem.
Israel's army has made several brief incursions into Palestinian-controlled in the past month in response to Palestinian attacks. The advances have drawn sharp international criticism, and the Israelis withdrew Sunday after several hours, as they have in each previous instance.
Udie said:
"Funny how it's the Isreali's that fire into neighborhoods, and not the Palestinian leaders who use their own citizens as "human shields". A matter of perspective I guess..."
well that's an interesting twist and use of gulf war lingo - they started the 'human shield' thing with sadam hussein and it's been useful rhetorically since. unfortunately. it's kinda like saying "that girl wouldn't have been raped if she wasn't wearin' such tight pants" but to each his own i guess.
i suppose i'm not inlightened[sic] enough to see it from any other perspective than the guy with his finger on the trigger and the random civilian houses in his gunsights. if you want to judge suicide bombers so be it, but you gotta apply it both ways.
all they have to do to attack civilians is say they were chasing a terrorist - who's gonna doubt em? not you - not any american probably! they got the public hook line and sinkered. unfortunately, your pals the israeli's don't belive in trials like we do here in the u.s., they pass judgment and sentence right there on the spot.
-
Toad, what's with this attitude towards the UN?
I've got a class mate who every summer goes to the former Yugoslavia and clear mines. I have others who've been down there on several tours.
My best friend's brother, whom I know quite well, saw some of his friends die when their camp was shelled by grenades.
We have people here coming back with post traumatic stress disorder. We have good men and women trying to do something decent in what is overall a warped and cruel world.
The UN might be hampered over the fact that it's not governed by only one government and thus have to compromise. It may be cash strapped compared to the mighty USA and it may not have the firepower of the same.
But for the sake of something larger than us, the Un peacekeepers and their commanders aren't out there for fun, to show off their uniforms. UN peacekeepers from a large numbers of countries have tried and died just as the American "police" has.
Everyone seem to be on these men and women's case. Me, I respect them for doing a hard job that's not properly recognized.
I got the sarcasm in your post and realize that you're mainly commenting on the large role the US has played in international affairs 8and do so by the will of the political leaders in the US), but I'm no fan of UN bashing for no reason. they're out there and they're doing their job as best they can, and are putting their lives on the line.
-
I don't believe I did "bash" them Santa.
I wish all peacekeepers well; a noble profession to be sure.
I just can't wait until the UN gets off its collective duff and gets to work. I think those who have been so critical will find it is not so easy as it looked from the grandstands.
Yeah, the Balkans are under control in a fashion, I guess.
Gaza is pretty much out of control; noone even discussing action.
Sudan has BEEN out of control for a long time. 2 MILLION dead? A religious based slaughter? It may not be the "HOLOCAUST" but it is sure sneaking up on a "holocaust". Where's the International Concern? Noone even discussing action.
Kurds in Iraq? No fly zones? When is somebody else going to take the duty? No one even discussing action.
Only the Brits have helped out on the UN mandated "no-fly zones" and only in the Northern zone. 10 years is a long time; lot of wear and tear on airframes. Our Guard/Reserve contingents are bailing out of their Units in droves due to the excessive commitments. Apparently, there's starting to be a perception that Guard/Reserve are supposed to be "just like Regulars" up on Capitol Hill. This just isn't the case, never has been and you can't use them that way in a non-National emergency situation.
I could go on and on. The world is NOT a friendly place.
You want some peacekeeping? Takes money and troopers, fact of life.
Time to put some money and personnel where the mouths have been for so long.
So where is it?
-
BIG WHITE FLASH.
MUSHROOM CLOUD.
2 seconds later..
BIG WHITE FLASH
MUSHROOM CLOUD.
------------------------
(NORAD SATELLITE CONSOLE OPERATORS)
"Hey, who let off the suitcase nuke in Tel Aviv?"
"One guess.. but we know fer sure who nuked Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq..... whups; and Iran."
-
Yep, the UN is a big joke. No commitment, no action, too late to do anything significant.
Guess it only works when the world's oil supplies are at stake. How sad. Blood < money. Warped, wicked world.