Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 26, 2001, 09:37:00 AM
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In my opinion.
BEIJING –– A "strongly indignant" China on Thursday
accused President Bush of further damaging already
strained ties with his blunt warnings about America's
will to defend Taiwan.
"There is only one China in the world. Taiwan is part of
China. It is not a protectorate of any foreign country,"
Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said at a
news conference.
"The Chinese government and people are strongly
indignant and opposed" to Bush's comments, Zhang said.
Zhang noted that Bush's "mistaken remarks" came on the
heels of an American offer Tuesday of arms to Taiwan,
which China strongly opposes.
"This shows that it has drifted further on a dangerous
road," Zhang said, referring to the United States.
Taiwan remained generally low-key in the wake of the
favorable developments, although its Foreign Ministry
affirmed U.S. efforts to safeguard regional stability and
said "we must build up our own defenses."
In strong remarks aimed at Beijing, Bush told The
Associated Press on Wednesday that U.S. military force
is "certainly an option" if China acts on long-standing
threats and strikes Taiwan. The two sides split amid
civil war in 1949, and China doesn't rule out using force
to assert control over the island it claims as a
breakaway province.
Bush issued a bolder warning in an earlier TV interview
with ABC's "Good Morning America," saying America
has an obligation to defend Taiwan if China attacks.
The president's remarks ventured far beyond past U.S.
policy, which was strategically vague and avoided
specifically describing what America would do if China
invaded Taiwan. U.S. policy-makers have only warned
that such a move would be of "grave concern" to
Washington.
The goal of U.S. policy has been to keep Taiwan from
provoking China by declaring independence, and to
keep China worried about the possibility of American
forces defending the island from Chinese attack.
Zhang said Bush's comments violated China-U.S.
communiques in which Washington acknowledged
Beijing's claim to Taiwan. She said his comments
would inflame China-Taiwan tensions "and will create
further damage for China-U.S. relations."
Washington must "correct its mistakes and stop
interfering in China's internal affairs with the question of
Taiwan," she said. "We are deeply concerned."
In Taiwan, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Catherine
Chang read a brief statement over the phone and would
not respond to questions.
"We affirm the United States' effort and determination to
safeguard the security across the Taiwan Strait and in
the Asian Pacific region. But we Taiwanese must
understand that to enhance our security, we must build
up our own defenses," the statement said.
Bush's remarks made the front-pages of Taiwan's
leading papers and were broadcast at the top of
television newscasts.
"Bush: If communist China attacks Taiwan, the US won't
rule out getting involved," said the Chinese-language
China Times, a Taiwanese daily.
In Tokyo, Japan's defense chief, Toshitsugu Saito, said
of Bush's comments: "It shows strong commitment to
defend Taiwan."
Australian Prime Minister John Howard urged calm and
restraint.
"We don't want to see any aggression by China against
Taiwan," Howard said. "We don't want to see any
wider tension escalate between the United States and
China."
Bush's comments and his arms offer to Taiwan added to
tensions sparked by an April 1 collision of a U.S. spy
plane and a Chinese fighter jet. The Chinese pilot is
believed dead, and China detained the U.S. plane's 24
crew members for 11 days after they made an
emergency landing on southern Hainan Island. China is
still holding their plane.
Last week, Washington also angered China by
approving a visa for former Taiwanese President Lee
Teng-hui, who is despised by Beijing as a barrier to
Taiwan's unification with the mainland.
Washington said its offer to sell Taiwan destroyers,
submarines, anti-sub planes and other advanced
weapons was necessary to ensure that the island could
meet the rising military threat from China.
China accuses the United States of violating a 1982 joint
communique under which Washington pledged to
gradually reduce the numbers and quality of weapons it
sells to Taiwan.
Beiijing has reminded Washington to adhere to its
commitment not to have official relations with Taiwan
and not to challenge Beijing's claim that the island
belongs to China.
"The unbridled sales of weapons will not bring security,
and relying on foreign powers will not thwart China's
reunification," the Chinese Communist Party's main
newspaper, People's Daily, said in an editorial.
Taiwan must concede it is part of China and take "quick
steps to ease and improve relations," the paper said.
Within 5 years would be my timeline. China attacks Taiwan, US reacts, conventional war for about 6 months, escalating into nuclear war.
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Not likely.
What would China gain by drawing the US into war?
If we already do so much business with them how can they or we sever those ties?
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George Bush was thrilled at finally being able to sleep in the White House, but something very strange happened. On the first night he was awakened by George Washington's ghost. Welcoming the opportunity to communicate with the father of our country, Bush asked, "President Washington, what is the best thing I can do to help the nation?"
"Set an honest and honorable example, just as I did," Washington said.
Later that night, the ghost of Thomas Jefferson appeared in the bedroom, and Bush asked him the same question.
"Cut taxes and reduce the size of government," Jefferson said.
Still later, the ghost of Abraham Lincoln appeared and Bush asked once again, "Abe, please tell me, what is the best thing I can do to help the nation?"
Lincoln replied, "Go see a play."
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China's manifest is world domination. Don't let anyone else fool you into believing anything else. If you knock the big guy off the block, or even have the gonads to attempt to, you're looked up to by the rest of the guys on the block. Sounds kinda paranoid don't it? Lets talk in about 4 years and see how close to reality this 'paranoid' statement is.
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Rip I posted about 7 weeks or so ago before the downing of wrong way that war would be with china in 5 years, 10 at the most. I guess we will have to kick their prettythanges again like we did in Korea. This will be a naval/air war for sure. TO be honest I would not doubt China will do something in the next couple weeks.
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I'll repost this from the other Taiwan thread. IMO, it's a good analysis of where we're presently going with the defense budget.
"If anyone has a subscription to Wall Street Journal Online, could you post the article called "the fire next time" from yesterday's (4/24) editorial page?"
Given Bush's statement on Taiwan, I think we'd better rearrange defense spending radically.
I'm not sure I totally agree with this policy. I think there would be other methods to accomplish deterrence that would be somewhat less of a risk. Given our force posture in the Pacific, it seems our support would be primarily in the form of a carrier group(s). What a rich target for making a statement; one which the Chinese might feel was worth the use of tac nuke to destroy, particularly in the open ocean where theoretical collateral damage would be limited/minimal.
This could get ugly real fast and I think we need to be extremely careful.
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I have no doubt that China will try something, but if we sever ties with them, thier economy will collapse. They depend on our money and our goods to keep their economy at a reasonable level. We cut that off, they wouldn't be able to support a long war. They'd eventually give up due to money problems. But if it does become a nuclear war, then I'm glad I lived a good life.
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semperfi
(http://www.usmc.mil/templateml.nsf/marinesega.jpg)
Everything dead in 30 minutes or less or the next one's free.
-Marines
[This message has been edited by texace (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Texace, we both lose economically, we would suffer as much as China in that aspect.
Sturm, I do believe China kick our bellybutton in Korea, after all, we went up to the Yalla (sp)river, they subsequently kicked our bellybutton back down south.
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Rip look at the numbers. The chinese could not stop us back then, we were on a roll and who stopped us? Wasn't the Chinese but someone in the thing called the oval office. As far as economically hurting us, well it might but it would hurt china more so then us. We have the ability to supplement whatever we got from them. They on the other hand do not.
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Nothing will happen at all, remember the stalemate 4 years ago. China then held amphibious exercises in the Taiwan strait and there were lots and lotsa threats from china towards US and vice versa (CV TF's off the coast etc.) Eventually everything settled down, just as it did with wrong way and any incidents in the future.......
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Thud1/Bies
Bring the Hurricane (MKIIC) to AH! (together with the Invader!)
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When we arrived at the Yala river, we met over 1 million Chinese. Remember Chosen Reservoir?...the Chinese kicked our ass.
Yes, the Oval office did hesitate from escalation, but at that point, the only escalation was of one to nuclear exchange.
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Errr, Rip, isn't world domination the US manifest? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Send Taiwan some chogs! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously though - WTF would be the point in fighting China over Taiwan?
So we can have cheaply made/priced consumer items?
Doesn't sound like a good enough reason to kill another generation of Americas youth to me - let em have the fediddleing rock.
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Rip, Chosin Reservoir is widely known and from my memory it wasn't that many but what had happened was 12,000 marines and Republic of Korea soldiers being encircled and attacked by 60,000 chinese.
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Yikes, Rip a scary !
If you do, please keep both your Nukes in your respective pockets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I read yeasterday that China has some 40+ "Modified" Kilo class Subs (Diesel, but still deadly attack subs)
So long for the saying "they don't have a Navy..."
Saw
[Mass]
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BTW they made it out of that encirclement and inflicted heavy casualties on the Chinese. We did not get our prettythanges kicked there, yes they were ambushed basically, but for the chinese numbers and tactical ground they were on they did a poor job of decimating a weaker opponent.
China has the population but their training and technology is a far cry from what we have and are capable of. If population meant anything I think the russians are proof "WW2". If it wasn't for lend lease where would the russians have been?
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Whoa people,
Before you start looking to the Korean Police Action for a testament to how a future conflict would end up remember. It was NOT a war. It was a LIMITED action (on our part) that tied the military's hands behind their back. Now I am NOT saying that was wrong. I am just stating there was an artificial limitation on the military.
Rip, you are partially correct in that the allied forces were pushed back to the Chosin Reservoir. You are NOT correct in that the Chinese did NOT kick our prettythanges. They were in turn pushed back to the 38th parallel where the US was stopped by the orders of the Commander in Chief. The Inchon invasion by MacArthur cut the Chinese supply lines and rolled back the lines in a very short time. Truman relieving MacArthur (not without due cause) ended his leadership of the actual fighting and placed the conflict into a stalemate. It should be noted that the majority of the casualties suffered by the US were IN that stalemate period. The fluid battle period were not as costly as merely digging in and fighting over the same freaking few hundred yards for a protracted time.
The introduction of "safe harbors" for the enemy's planes (ala the Yalu River line) was another artificial limitation on the allied options that let the Chinese (and Russian) "helpers" assist the North Korean military. Had the Allied air forces not ben hobbled there would have been no opportunity for the north to build up troops and supplies close to the border of Korea prior to placing them into action farther south.
BTW China used the position that the Chinese troops in Korea were "volunteers" so that they could "maintain" a position that didn't "indicate" an expansionist policy. (And if you believe that.. I have some beach front property for sale in Yuma AZ.) This makes it into a non aggressive action on their part. The Russians only admitted to placing "advisors" in a non combat role helping the North Koreans airforce. Later documents showed they did have a limited combat role during the conflict.
Conflict around Taiwan will have some significant problems for the US. The supply lines will be very long. The Chinese lines very short. The Chinese also know the US has little patience in a protracted conflict. All they have to do is start the conflict then dig in their heels to let it drag on and hope the US will lose the "enthusiasm" for the fighting. If that happens the Chinese (who do take little notice of what their own people think) will simple win by default.
Any conflict will have to be short and decisive for the US to be able to dictate the terms of ending it.
Now that I have dropped all this info, let the debate begin!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Military strategists speak up.
Mav
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Sturm, they would of been in Berlin just a few months later...The russians even with inferior equipment for most of the war still threw brigade upon bridage in and that finally broke the back of Army Group North and South.
When it comes to China. China, even though communist, is not country that we should laugh away. Though many of their military items are outdated compared to the US arsenal, China represents a possible overwhelming factor that modern tech cannot fully defeat.
The fact that China has integrated it's Air defense with fiber optics tells me, along with other projects, that China is serious about updating. Just like Russia during those "cold war" years, the US was mistaken about many things concerning the Russian military that was not discovered till after the fall of it.
China is not a country that the US should WANT to fight, by any means.
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0:
Sturm, they would of been in Berlin just a few months later...The russians even with inferior equipment for most of the war still threw brigade upon bridage in and that finally broke the back of Army Group North and South.
Wingnut the only reason the russians were able to hold at Moscow was from the vast amount of resources given to them from the allies. I believe it is in Von Mellinthin's book I will find the passages about the increasing odds they were facing of allied lend lease equipment.
The size of the army well lightly put does not matter. What matters is the spirit and quality of the troops. history has shown a smaller army can defeat a much larger one. And honestly do you think our other allies are going to stand around twiddling their thumbs? Chances are no, if china defeats the US guess who is next? Or better put who would be able to stop them.
And thank you maverick for getting across my point from which I had stated earlier about a certain someone in the oval office stopping us from kicking the crap out of the chinese.
[This message has been edited by Sturm (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Korea was a war from another age.
And don't forget the British were there too. Because over here, Korea is a forgotten war.
Remember the Gloucester's Regiment - 650 men held a hill against 10,000 Chinese.
And only 40 men from that regiment survived.
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Sturm, should we kiss your shoes for your crappy second-hand planes and matchbox tanks? Or maybe for "second front" when Soviet Army have already won the war?
JFYI: the Moscow battle happened before "allied" help reached USSR. If Soviet counter-attack could have begun not on December, 6, but a few days earlier - I think that USA could stay out of WWII.
And the war with China is the most stupid thing that US can do. The only good side of it will be that US will forget about "world domination" for a long time.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
When we arrived at the Yala river, we met over 1 million Chinese. Remember Chosen Reservoir?...the Chinese kicked our ass.
Yes, the Oval office did hesitate from escalation, but at that point, the only escalation was of one to nuclear exchange.
Didn't we end up designing a bunch of new guns that can kill by the hundreds just to defeat the human wave attack?
Question is can the US survive w/ the lost of 13 major cities, and would Russia nuke us after we obliterated China w/ nukes? Or will our anti missle "laser" be working by then, personaly I hope so.
This whole thing reminds me of something I though back in '89. The cold war ended and USSR was broken up. Everybody said yeah! the cold war is over I don't have to worry about nuclear war, then they started the massive downsizing of our military. I have always thought, even as a "liberal" teenager that this was stupid. Because instead of there being 2 or 3 countries w/ nukes there are now 13 or 14 countries w/ nukes, 11 of which are poor.
We should have listened to Patton when we had the chance, now it's probobly too late.....
Udie
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I have one thing to say.
"If the US and China go to war. Then God help us all"
Because all of us know that if they do. Then it won't just be the US that is drawn in. The UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy. Most of the Allied Coalition will be thrown in. While most of the East will fall in under china.
We would be looking at another war on a global scale. A conflict between two major super powers would almost defiantly escalate into an all out gang banging session for whoever or whatever they could get out of it.
If the US went to war with china. What would happen to Saddam? While America plays war games saddam will be biding his time and eventually he will strike...
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Kilos are loud. Easy to track. You can rest assured that USN knows where they are at all times.
If China tried to go across the sea to Taiwan, they would lose all their ships and most of their planes. There would be no ground war in Taiwan. US and Taiwan would lose some ships and planes too, but China would not be able to invade. No ground war.
The only ground war would be if they tried to invade South Korea. I suppose they could pull that off if they were sneaky enough.
I really doubt China would start throwing nukes around. Their forces are not strong enough to wipe out US nuclear forces. The best they could hope for against the US and allies is to take out a few cities before their country became a glass parking lot.
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Hmm, let me re-phrase "Kicked our ass"...when we got to the Yala and saw that our soldiers were outnumbered 10 to 1, and a zillion miles from home, as well as a supply line that was as far away, we changed our minds. (BTW, that's what I consider 'getting your bellybutton kicked'...you're stalemated...you either retreat, or get wiped out, or escalate to nuclear weapons, we chose retreat)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-26-2001).]
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FWIW Von Mellinthin's book is quite anti-Bolshevik and seems to be written to please his cold war masters at the Pentagon. Like The Blond Knight of Germany it is one of the stronger pieces of Cold War propaganda that I have read.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Another comment:
Let's not forget who initiated this problem. The Chinese have for several years been building up their missile, air, land, sea forces that can strike Taiwan, while spewing increasingly agressive rhetoric towards this Democracy. Unfortunately the previous administration, either due to corruption or lack of testicular fortitude, did nothing to discourage them. The Chinese made this mess, and because the last President didn't do his job, Bush is forced to be the one to clean it up.
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Well... I dont think there will be ANY conflict. CHina is certainly a threat... BUT they realize they cant compete with us at THIS moment. CHina is a nation known for its patience. It has a sense of history and future planing few other if any nations can claim. The will rattle thier sabers and then wait till THEY get the techno they need... then they will make themselfs felt...
China is about 15-20 yrs behind us techno wise at best. They're simliar to a slightly better Iraq. We would be able to cripple alot of thier command and control, fleets etc but it would be at a higher cost than Iraq...
Oh and to our Russian friend... dont fool yourself. Stalin PUSHED the allies to launch DDAY for a 2 front war against Germany. DO not forget that US/British bombers where raining death upon the German factories and such perventing those materials from reaching the eastern front. Germany was a formidable foe and Stalin knew this... or at least those Generals like Zukov(?) certainly did. The LL program helped alot I'm sure but I think it was mainly support items... trucks,parts etc?
Russia had some of the best tanks of the war.. t-34's and plenty of soldiers willing to die for what they believed in.
Anyway... here's to peace... every real soldiers goal!
batdog
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quote:"China's manifest is world domination. Don't let anyone else fool you into believing anything else."
Well, looking at global actions and policy over the past 100 years, compare how much the territorial boundaries of China have changed over the past 100 years (shrank slightly) to the US (increased vastly). Also, compare how many times their military has globally intervened in conflicts (China, 2 or 3 times) to the US (at least once every 5 years or so). One might question who really desires to dictate global policy as a manifest?
The "communism" dirty word isn't always the same for all times. China's current communist policy should not be equated with Kruschev-ian communist policy. I think it is a mistake to compare the China of the 50's with the China of today. Equally, it is a mistake to do so with the US as well, both countries bear no resemblence to the coutries of 50 years ago.
However, despite all of the progress in human rights we've made, I see Bush's foreign policy chillingly close to the Truman/Eisenhower period, yet without the "great enemy" that necessitated that policy in the 50's.
All this over a stupid bumping of airplanes. There weren't even any american lives lost! I just don't get it....
Bush scares me.
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Originally posted by Kirin:
Errr, Rip, isn't world domination the US manifest? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
nice one kirin...the manifest destiny makes me laugh
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Ok boroda calm down there, Riddlin is just a desk drawer away. I think the russians should be kissing more then our shoes for what we did for them. It is funny how over time the memory fades. Not only russia but Great Britain as well. Your amazing knowledge of history stifles me. At any rate, We can take China as is. Time to knock number 2 down a couple steps.
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Hey, if its American manifesto, you're country gets rich, and the right to vote for the leaders...communism offers something slightly different. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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My sympathies are with China. And there will be no wars between china and usa, because USA is lead by markets and China is the biggest rising markets on the world.
You rednecks think, that Bush actually makes any decicions (he can execute people, but thats about all)? Decicions are made by those, that sponsors Bush (Cigarette companies, oil companies etc etc.) so i dont see any interests in those business to attack china. Actually quite an opposite, as they want to sell their products to them, not kill them.
And thats what YK is for, to make trusts and contracts, that are based on favours of USA. USA couldnt compete any better with the rest of the world if they werent cheating all the time (for instance they can steal freely patents, but dont let anyone else to do that) and using -70:s factory techologies, that would be immidiately closed in Europe, as they pollute absolutely too much than evinroment could handle.
There are smaller countries, which are more suitable for new weapons technology testing, like Bosnia (as weapons; the usage of them, are one major interest group). USA wants to test their weapons technology in countries, that cant fight back and China doesent fall in that category.
Its not about domination, its about easy money. And THATS what everyones after.
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Tuo, I'm just guessing here, but I'm guessing your a student, about 25 years or younger.(young, dumb, vulnerable to propoganda)
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Ripsnort how was it with chosing the leaders in USA?
Wasnt it like this: Al Gore got majority of the votes and Bush got elected?
You dont vote directly your leaders, and that makes us all wonder; why not? As far as i know, the real democracy means, that people will lead and the leaders will follow. So USA is as far away from Democracy, as the China is from real Communism. The people are in both countries for the government and not the other way around, as they should be.
Btw, that democracy thing applies to all todays "democracys", but the thing, that rednecks claim their country to be something very special in the world is just plain bulls**t.
Edit: Im fairly young, but im not dumb. Rip, are you over 30 years, conservative and afraid of everything new, like new music scenes etc.? The older the man gets, the more hes willing to claim hes knowledge to be superior, because of "been there done that" claim? Every situtation is unique, you just _sometimes_ can make good estimates based on your earlier experiences.
World would be MUCH better place, if it were lead by less than 30 year old, freshly educated (as the science changes, but you dont), "free" and filled with energy types of youngsters. The "been there" type of thinking is just too narrow to be suitable for major decicions (knowing whats best for everybody, for example).
[This message has been edited by Tuomio (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Wasnt it like this: Al Gore got majority of the votes and Bush got elected?
An incorrect statement, the final vote counts from Florida gave Bush the victory - even using the counting "criteria" the Gore campaign advocated.
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I was right, young dumb and full of C__ (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No no i know the system (atleast the basics), which the leaders in the USA are elected. I just wanted to point out, that YOU dont elect anything, the electors elect and youll have to be satisfied for that or revolt. YOur votes are just a "signal" for the electors.
I dont believe any conspiracys or things like that, but i wonder, if someday theres man that electors dont want to vote, but the people wants? Whos interests will be on the stand?
Ripsnort, the man that says the arguments doesent matter, only the arguments matters. If you can only make your point by picking my age or something like that, is to admit, that you dont have anything to add.
And if you have something to add, but dont want to say that, keep yourself away from the discussion. So, what makes me dumb? My age? I mean, i mustve been read some propaganda, as i dont praise USA?
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Tuomio wrote:
a bunch of anti-American nonsense.
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Do yourself a favor and think before you spew. You have made it plain that ignorance really is bliss.
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I dont believe any conspiracys or things like that, but i wonder, if someday theres man that electors dont want to vote, but the people wants? Whos interests will be on the stand?
In some states they are bound to the polls' vote, their casting of it is a mere formality. In others it is true they do actually cast the votes, but the electors themselves are selected by the respective parties and which goes depends on the popular vote of that state.
In other words it's not something we're likely to ever see that electors selected by the Democratic party vote for a Republican candidate despite the vote of that state, or vice versa.
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Originally posted by jihad:
Wasnt it like this: Al Gore got majority of the votes and Bush got elected?
An incorrect statement, the final vote counts from Florida gave Bush the victory - even using the counting "criteria" the Gore campaign advocated.
Also not quite accurate. The final vote counts from Florida gave Bush the Electoral College win (ONLY using the Gore campaign's criteria - had the Bush criteria been used, Gore would have won), however, Gore still had a higher popular vote total, which is, I believe, what TUOMIO was referring to.
- Yoj
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The states elect the President. It's up to each state to determine who they vote for. They could draw the name from a hat or pick the person with the brightest teeth. They happed to have systems based on a statewide popular vote.
Wait long enough and there will be another big war. Hopefully, it will be long after we are all dead from old age.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
When we arrived at the Yala river, we met over 1 million Chinese. Remember Chosen Reservoir?...the Chinese kicked our ass.
Yes, the Oval office did hesitate from escalation, but at that point, the only escalation was of one to nuclear exchange.
We didn't have cruise missiles then. They that control the air control the war. We control the air!
As for economically, the US can live without the Chinese junk/toys but they cannot live without our $$$$$$$$$$
But nothing will happen. It is all tough talk. China has to spew their line to "save face" with their people.
Eagler
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RIPSNORT wrote:
Within 5 years would be my timeline. China attacks Taiwan, US reacts, conventional war for about 6 months, escalating into nuclear war.
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Possibly in 25 years, but not before then and hopefully never.
China may want Taiwan for its very large and modern computer factories. (a very large part of all the PC parts in the world come from them) but they are better off building thier own on the mainland, and that will take time.
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Originally posted by funked:
Another comment:
Let's not forget who initiated this problem. The Chinese have for several years been building up their missile, air, land, sea forces that can strike Taiwan, while spewing increasingly agressive rhetoric towards this Democracy. Unfortunately the previous administration, either due to corruption or lack of testicular fortitude .....
Monica would argue this point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm afraid it was the former.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
Ripsnort, the man that says the arguments doesent matter, only the arguments matters. If you can only make your point by picking my age or something like that, is to admit, that you dont have anything to add.
And if you have something to add, but dont want to say that, keep yourself away from the discussion. So, what makes me dumb? My age? I mean, i mustve been read some propaganda, as i dont praise USA?
So doesn't that count for your "rednecks" comments as well?
Silly boy....
Udie
[edit] BTW, Ripsnort could debate circles around you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) he's a very intellegent man. He likes debating in large groups of people, this makes him a mass debator (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
sorry rip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sturm:
"only reason the russians were able to hold at Moscow was from the vast amount of resources given to them from the allies[This message has been edited by Sturm (edited 04-26-2001).]
"Panzer Battles" by Maj Gen Von Mellenthin is a book I read and re-read often for refernces. Moscow was lost in two parts; 1 due to the under equipped Wermacht (most artillery was still horse drawn and had rough times navigating the country side), the 2nd part of that was Russian defense. Instead of the Wermacht being able to punch a hole thru and incircle, the Russians would see a bridgehead being formed and fall back to another line.
Hence when they did reach Moscow, there Russian forces in the area were just simply too strong to punch thru. There were no lines, only 1 very large Russian army.
Funked,
Mellenthins book is very anti-Bolshevik near the end, but the vast amount of info describing the campaigns is EXCELLENT. It remains in my top 5 wartime books.
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I don’t understand how some people hold the views they do about war. It would seem that some think of war as some sort of glorious event where meaningful things are accomplished with a rational undertaking rather than viewing it for what it is.
Personally I can not think of one war in the history of mankind that was worth debating, let alone worth fighting. Killing one another over, perhaps in too simple a view, what ends up being words is to me absurd.
Going off to kill and to die in the name of some form of government is absurd as well. I mean think about it for a minute, no matter what you label it or how its run it boils down to living in a fiefdom where you are the peasant and the lords, what ever title they chose to go by, could care less about you or your needs or wants. We are all slaves in the end.
I personally can not imagine a word, or a cause or idea that would be worth even one of you reading this going off and being killed over. Perhaps my hair is too long and it keeps me from understanding the whole concept. Perhaps I partook of too many mind altering substances when I was younger and so can see through the lies. Perhaps I’ve just grown too old, who knows; I tell you though I would much rather sit down and have a beer, share a joke and a laugh with "them" than go out and kill or die over some words "they" don’t really believe in either.
"I can tell by your coat, my friend, your from the other side. There’s just one I’ve got to know, can you tell me please, who won?"
Wooden Ships
David Crosby & Steven Stills
Oh and yea I saw that movie too. No that word isn’t worth fighting over. If you think it is, then I think you probably don’t understand what that’s all about … its that other F word ….
[This message has been edited by Sod (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Redneck wasnt an insult for ripsnort. Its just the type of people; the "in god we trust" types (who btw can one trust something, that doesent exist?). Easy to persuade with smiling faces.
If ripsnort is such an highly intelligent person, then he should say something intelligent. I just made my point clear and if somebody can point out, that i was wrong, then I WAS WRONG (maybe.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). I dont lose my face over some BB discussions. I like to argue about issues, but i dont like to argue about me. Well atleast not in this context; face to face, anytime.
Listening is learning and im all ears.
Its just funny sometimes to read about the fury, which many US people talk about their rights to "defend the freedom of the world" but in the meantime their hands are in funding of many guerilla groups in far-east. In fact, somehow the "govt offices" like CIA etc. have always something going on in every place, that has opportunity to make big money or achieve something thats worth of it. Thats the Nazi type of policy, that "results justify the means".
I dont like the idea of "worlds police", when the "worlds police" cant deal with its own social problems, like the worlds largest drug user-rates. How could such an country to make good decicions over the whole planet Earth?
Let the Taiwan to deal with its own problems, since USA will risk MY life by acting like it had a right to do so.
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"It would seem that some think of war as some sort of glorious event where meaningful things are accomplished with a rational undertaking rather than viewing it for what it is. "
Yups..it appears someone is desperate to have "an enemy" again.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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Tuomio:
I dont like the idea of "worlds police", when the "worlds police" cant deal with its own social problems, like the worlds largest drug user-rates. How could such an country to make good decicions over the whole planet Earth?
I agree 100% with that statement, although I don't think the drug use statistic is correct. But I don't like my country's troops being sent all over the world to attempt to fix the locals' problems.
However you don't seem to understand the Taiwan situation too well. Talk to some people from Taiwan and maybe you will understand. They have democracy now. An imperfect democracy, but still much better than the totalitarian communist regime on the mainland. I know people from both countries, and it's pretty clear that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be a terrible step backwards.
These people don't want to be invaded by China, and the US has a long alliance with them, which the US is obligated to honor.
It's not like some of the other stupid situations which US has gotten involved with. This is an old ally and you don't leave allies hanging in the breeze.
Of course if you are from a country which has a tradition of attacking its allies, then maybe it's hard to understand this point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]
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So, Tuomio, what statement could we expect from you if in the future, our Finnish friends and allies find themselves faced with Russian agression (again)?
I don't think Americans see protecting the freedom of the world as a "right" or a "privilege", but rather as a bloody unwelcome responsibility. The US is usually asked, nay, implored to help.
There are certainly some evil, nasty people in the world (everywhere) who manipulate these things to their own interests, but the majority of the American people are just trying to get on with their lives, just like you. They have the luxury of not having any aggressive, powerful neighbours, and are inexplicably willing to help other countries acheive a similar goal.
Have you asked any Taiwanese how they feel about the situation?
Not that I like Bush. But then again, I don't like Gore either. Actually I don't like many politicians. Libertarians are OK, but can't get organised (kind of to be expected).
[This message has been edited by agosling (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sod:
Personally I can not think of one war in the history of mankind that was worth debating, let alone worth fighting....
I personally can not imagine a word, or a cause or idea that would be worth even one of you reading this going off and being killed over. Perhaps my hair is too long and it keeps me from understanding the whole concept. Perhaps I partook of too many mind altering substances when I was younger and so can see through the lies. Perhaps I’ve just grown too old, who knows;
Perhaps you weren't a Jew in Berlin in '39?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I can't believe some of the chickens*** posts in this thread. Like the idiot who is "siding" with the ChiComs.
BTW, unlike some yo-yo further-up this thread, i'm not ANYBODY'S freakin' "slave" and yes, some things ARE worth fighting/dying for.
If you don't know what's worth fighting/dying for, and worse, WON'T fight, i suggest you look for a heart surgeon ASAP.
Because it's obvious the heart you have is weak, inadequate, or missing altogether, and you need a transplant.
Cabby
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Originally posted by Toad:
Perhaps you weren't a Jew in Berlin in '39?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Toad;
I very seriously doubt that the millions of Jewish peoples are glad that they were put to death or forced to suffer the nightmare of concentration camps in a war over the words spouted by some former Private come political leader.
The war was not over the Jews. As far as I can tell the war was fought because of the ravings and promises of glory spouted by a mad man. Millions of people died over the words he chose to lead his people to war over. Had those words only been, "We are better than the Jews," I would still think it was insane that millions of people gave their lives over those words.
You point out only the horror of war. The insanity that comes from following the whims of a mad man who would have you die for the words he decides to war over. Religion, government, power, culture, money . All simple words that some mad man chose to start a war over, not one letter of which is worth even one life, save perhaps the life of the mad men that chose to war over them.
No I was not a Jew during 1939 in Berlin, but if I were I would most assuredly not have thought that the ravings of a mad man were worth the lives of millions of my fellow human beings.
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War within five years?
hey rip; I'll buy you a keg of radioactive beer if you're right. If you're not, you give me a keg of the finest microbrew you can find.
Sounds fair to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Except you might aggrevate the Chinese just to win the bet.
"Boeing employee challenges China". I can see it in front of me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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Sod,
If you think there has never been a war worth fighting you are seriously deficient in history. If you think there never will be a war or cause worth fighting for then you lack a basic fundamental part of nature. That is the willingness to risk / lay down your life for something bigger than yourself. You obviously do not care about anyone more than yourself or you would understand the drive that people have that makes them risk it all for another. In fact I cannot think of a more succinct definition of selfishness than the inability to know that feeling. An adult knows the drive to protect something or someone that transcends mere apathy. I cannot fathom that much apathy or lack of caring as you have expressed.
Fortunately there are others who do care about what they believe in to stand up and fight for it. It doesn't take a war to require that effort or sacrifice either. Everyday thousands of Firefighters. Police and Soldiers risk their lives for others they have never known and will never know. They are willing to risk themselves for a greater thing than themselves.
In case I am missing the meaning of your posts I will check in another direction. If you think that war is a waste, I agree. If you think it is a poor method for settling differences between governments, I agree. If you think there has never been a conflict worth fighting over you are sadly mistaken. There have been many conflicts that were worth fighting for in and out of wartime.
Do not fall into the misconception that just because a person joins the military they WANT to be in a war. The people who desire peace the most are those who have to fight in the conflict. Ask any combat Vet, they will tell you that.
Mav
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No Sod, indeed you weren't. I wonder if you would think there were things worth dying to stop if you had been.
But you spent a goodly portion of your post pointing out that there is NOTHING is worth fighting a war. That's the part I quoted.
It doesn't matter really WHY Hitler took the German people to war. What matters is that he and they had to be stopped.
Unfortunately, in order to stop folks like that, other folks that have absolutely no interest or enthusiasm for going off to war end up going off to war. And fighting. And dying.
I took your post to mean that there is NOTHING for which you would fight and, if you were one of the unlucky ones, die for.
Is that what you meant to say?
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You can't compare China now with China from the Korean war era. The Peoples Republic of China was only a few years old at that time. They have had 50 years to build up a massive, and I mean massive, military.
It would be World War III.
United States
Britian
Canada
Australia
France
Germany
vs (Russia would probably remain neutral)
China
North Korea
Iraq
Syria
Cuba
China has the largest military in the history of this planet. Their soldiers are very well trained and very dedicated to their cause. Their technology rivials the U.S. and you can be sure they have many weapons being held secret.
America has superior air and naval power. With Britian's help their ground troops could rival China's.
Nuclear war? I highly doubt it.
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Originally posted by Betown:
If the US went to war with china. What would happen to Saddam? While America plays war games saddam will be biding his time and eventually he will strike...
I think if we actually went to a full-scale war with Saddam, we would bomb the hell out of Iraq just to make sure they didn't get any ideas. OTOH, If we went to war with China, I think Saddam would step right in to back them up, maybe.
Midnight
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How and where would America deploy troops if war broke out in China? China is isolated and most of the battles would be fought in Korea, Mongolia or even Vietnam again. It would not, and could not, be fought on mainland China. Deploying forces in Taiwan would basically be a death trap.
China has the geographic advantage.
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Maverick and Toad:
I think I’ve chosen a very poor way of trying to express my views and feelings. Let me try to clarify what I meant. Please forgive me if this gets a little long.
There are indeed things in this world worth fighting for. I’ve no problem thinking of a few things I would gladly die for if the need arose. Examples would be my children, my wife, family and friends. The ideals I would fight for would indeed include stopping the marauding of a mad man or the ending of a genocide such as in our talk of WW2.
I’m in no way saying that defending ones self, or perhaps to a lesser degree ones beliefs and ideals is wrong. Far from it. But, and perhaps here is where my views are a little on the skewed side, I can’t think of a war that was started for those reasons.
Here as our example in this thread is China and Taiwan. What would be the actual cause of the war? In my eyes it would be Taiwan refusing to bow down to China and refusing to say they were a part of China,. The words causing this war would be "You are a part of China" Simply words that are not worth, in this case China, starting a war over. To me its absurd to think that the lives of people are worth those words. Defending that freedom would be worth it, but the cause of the war, the thing that started it, would not be worth even one life lost in it.
Maverick you’ve hit the nail on the head. War is a tragic waste. It seems they are usually started by, and please understand I speak of the people that start them and not the people that actually end up having to go off and fight them, mad men for reasons that in retrospect are so petty and meaningless.
What actually set me off on reading this thread was the thought that, and I’m not speaking of anything I’ve actually read here, people seeming to think that war between the US and China would be a good thing. Specifically things supposedly posted on other boards by Chinese students, and some things said by some friends of mine. That people would actually talk as if they wanted a war just astounds me. That there is even the remotest of possibilities of that war coming to be truly frightens me. The reasons that war might be started, a spy plane, an arms deal or a declaration of separatism made by a small island to a vastly larger nation, makes me truly sad.
I think there is where I was unclear. It seems the wars of our past and those still to come have or will have their start at the hands of mad men who seem eager to end the lives of sometimes tens of millions of people over things that are not worth actually starting a war over.
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I agree. However, we must remember the history of the Peoples Republic of China and how it was formed. China invaded small countries along its borders and claimed they were "renagade provinces". Tibet is a good example. Thousands of priests were murdered, ancient documents and temples demolished, nuns raped and killed and Lamas kidnapped. China is currently holding the Panchen Lama in prison. Buddhists believe he is second to the Dalai Lama. He was 6 years old when kidnapped and Tibeateans and Buddhists world wide do not know how he is. On top of all this, China (even though they are against religion) has said that they, the government, will choose the next Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama.
I do not agree with a draft, going to war should be a very personal decision. Nevertheless I do believe that I would go to war if it meant freeing a peaceful, oppressed people if there was absolutely no other course of action.
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'If we would cut trade with China they would be in trouble..'
Again it sounds like some of the Americans think that US is the whole world outside of China..
China does trade to hundreds of countries, your country (admittedly a big one) is still just one trade partner along with others.
One of the most ludicrive fields of trade for China is pirated products, cd-roms, t-shirts, nike shoes etc etc.. 90% of that trade happens through Russia.. You think they would cut trade with China in case of a conflict? LOL.
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Cutting trade with China would hurt you just as bad.
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I don't know what they will be fighting with in world war 3, but I know what they will be fighting with in fourth World War: rocks & sticks more or less accuratly quoted from A. Einstein
I seriously doubt that any of the parties will summon a open conflict. Both countries should have enough brains to see that neither of them would gain anything from it. They will probably fight it out on a smaller scale on the back of second line countries - like they did before.
I agree on the statement that there was never a war being worth fighting it. Whatever motives were used to justify it - the main reason was power/control/money/whatever. Sure those poor people who fought and died in the war believed in religion/freedom/justice/whatever but they were misslead. Have you noticed that there were not many wars won by the bad guys? The victor writes history and sets moral standards. Since the western culture has almost conquered the world by luck/brutality/technological advancement/whatever people tend to think that everyone has to think and act like they do; that the world belongs to them. World domination will/is not be accomplished by rifles/tanks/nukes/whatever but by economy/media/ideology/whatever...
Brings me to the question: Can you get a BigMac in Beijing?
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what war ??? make a no-fly-zone over
Taiwan and here we go, problem solved ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Eloquently put Kirin.
Most wars it seems are about a few *individuals* at the top deciding, often based on personal preference, on what will happen.
Ego plays a huge role. It's human interaction almost 1 to 1 brought out.
Of course there are examples of wars being fought over more ideological reasons, but in the end, it's Mr Average Joe who gets to die and fight.
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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My last .02 worth here. Seems we have a few pacifists running around here. At any rate I have come to this scoring card which will help you all out. This is based on a boxing card 12 round event.
Round 1 US 10 China 8
Round 2 US 10 China 8
Round 3 US TKO China not getting up for a long time.
Sorry but China cannot compete with us, and we will shut all your damn Chinese restaraunts down as well, and maybe the US public can come back from being so obese.
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Tuo, First, you stero-type folks, (See Redneck comment), then, you belittle folks who do believe in God. Then you make off hand comments about our election process you know nothing about. So, you've proved several points to me. You're hardly worth a rational debate with at this point.
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Theres big difference in defending yourselfs and your friends and attacking to somewhere to defend somebody that you dont even know.
USQ cant justify any attacks unless they are for defending its own country. Why? Becouse wars are not computer games, they are things, where you end up killing millions of innocent people and very likely your own youth.
If you want to defend Taiwan, you cant do it with sendind unknown (for you) persons overseas to be massacred in the name of big money and big balls. Honour? Whats that? Is honour the thing, where you smoke a big fat cuban and decide, whos squad will be the first ones to sent in the sure death? Soldiers are just units to the officers.
I have been in the army of my country, but thats becouse our army is dedicated only to defend, not to attack. Sorry all you US military fanatics, but i see no benefits in war between china and usa. Theres no way, that USA could held the war in just Taiwans territory. It would end in USA sending its missiles to chinese cities to kill innocent children and women.
So, please dont talk about honour in this context, honour was something that was when man faced other man with swords. Today its all about pressing buttons and killing faceless "enemy" using your own youth to accomplish that.
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Tuomio please see this link it might calm your nerves.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum4/HTML/002017.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum4/HTML/002017.html)
And besides that, we are the big brother of all the other countries that cannot defend themselves against a larger foe. A few Examples
France
Great Britain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
South Korea
Kuwait
Somalia
7-11 stores
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Patton? Who the hell is Patton? That bonehead general from a stupid "stars and stripes" movie?
Sturm, in 1944 the "second front" was useless, and it's only purpose was to get some property before Russians will wash their boots in Atlantic. Very american decision.
Damn, Stalin sacrificed more then a million soldiers just to save the "allies" from 2 panzer divisions, when yankees got their pants wet and cried for help...
As for Russian position in the probable conflict between US and Chinese People's Republic - I think that we'll have to make some test launches and state that Russia will consider any massive missile launch form any side a direct danger to itself.
It should be much better then to help Chneese military against our main enemy. Too bad that our relations with China will not result in another "Weidadi Yui" because of upcoming economical crisis in the West.
Very sad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda: "against our main enemy"
The "main enemy" of the Russian people is and always HAS been the leaders they allow to govern them.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad, I have to completely agree with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It have been so for the last 1000 years, since St. Vladimir, "the Bright Sun".
The problem is that current Russian administration slowly turns public opinion against USA, and US govnmnt helps them. Look at the story with Pavel Pavlovich Borodin.
/*hehe, I wanted to mail iEN because they caught the wrong person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) */ Look at mr. Pope's case, "spies" in Russian embassy, etc. Cold war again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Look, even you use the same cold war lexics now, like "Chi-coms".
Two sides of the problem: Putin preparing to take over the industry and save Russian economics by "wartime measures", and Bush wanting to evade the upcoming crisis by another "successful war" overseas.
As Cinese say: "I wish my enemies to live in an interesting time" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda,
So there is no misunderstanding, I think the normal "everyday" people are no different than those of the US or most any other country.
We all enjoy lifes simple pleasures... family, friends, a jug of wine, a loaf of bread and just about anyone of the opposite sex that we can get to hold still long enough. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I feel sorry for the "common" people of your nation. They are long-suffering and deserve better from their leaders than they have received "for a thousand years."
I just don't know how it will ever change unless from within.
Good luck.
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Boroda, I have always left an open venue for everyone. No matter what our government has said about them. I have relatives that are ukranians so I can sympathize with them about their political plight. It is funny how we can sometimes forget what is actually being shoveled out by our government to mask the others intentions.
I am quite sure we could get along with RUssians if the government would allow it. Hell we get along with the canadians and they are a rowdy bunch. The french well no one likes them, besides the french so we will leave them alone. I think it is time we let our political venues go in this forum and relate to what we really want and that is WW2 planes we all love and studied with a passion.
If we go to war with china so be it, I will still do the same things over here. I did my time in the service and will not be recalled unless there is a drastic shortage of fodder. Hope this message will help others understand as well.
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Toad, I meant that Russians will be always unsatisfied by ANY government we have. Living according to your personal moral principles ("po ponyatiyam") and always fighting the Big Brother is a common thing here. From this POV - government is always an enemy number one. This doesn't include defencive wars against invaders, Russians will resist them by all means.
Sturm: "So be it"...
Well... Unfortunately, I doubt that many people here will keep their jobs, and simply live like they did, in case of US war with China (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Should you stay away from "service" if your Army skills will be nessesary in, for example, civil defence?
What we have now is the first worldwide crisis since the cold war times. Now it's much more dangerous because the balance is broken...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Look at the story with Pavel Pavlovich Borodin.
Could it be that we are looking at it differently?
Russians assume that law is secondary to the government wishes and if something happens it is US governmemt responcibility bacause the law is just irrelevant.
That is not so. Once there was a legal order for arrest and no legal immunity, US government had no influence on the case, no matter what it's wishes were.
miko
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Originally posted by Boroda:
From this POV - government is always an enemy number one.
Well, then you'd make a damn fine Republican in the U.S. Repubs want a smaller Gov't, less taxes, Dems want bigger Gov't, more taxes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Boroda:
This doesn't include defencive wars against invaders, Russians will resist them by all means.
You should have qualified it, like "some Russians will resist them by all means".
If you've read your russian history, you would have seen that it is mostly treachery. "History of the Russian State" by Karamsin is quite an eye-opener. There hardly seemed to be a decade that a russian did not invite foreigners to help destroy his neighbours. And that was written by a patriotic court historian!
How many hundreds of thousands of russians/ukrainians fought on the side of Germans in WWII?
Russian people are very much like any oher people. No less capable, no more noble.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by MrSiD:
'If we would cut trade with China they would be in trouble..'
Again it sounds like some of the Americans think that US is the whole world outside of China..
If you knew the numbers, you would have posted them here, MrSiD, so apparently you do not. It seems that the only thing you know relevant to this argument is that there are other countries other then US and China. So what?
I cannot tell you not to get into arguments if you cannot substantiate your statements, but I can tell you that you sound like an ignorant.
Here are the numbers for you for 1999:
12% of Chinese imports are from US
22% of Chinese exports are to US.
Just the trade imbalance between US and China is $60 billion a year in Chinese favor - money flowing (being invested) into their economy.
You think that a loss of 22% of exports, 12% of strategically important imports (we do not sell them consumer junk and clothes but serious technology) and $60 billion a year in investments would not cause a HUGE trouble to any country?
I am not even talking about the direct investments etc.
Do you think Japan likes the idea of China occupying Taiwan? Is there a chance they would side with US if the situation gets tough?
Because those guys have There %20 of chinese imports and 17% of chinese exports.
miko
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Boroda:
You may think the "Yankees"(yechh)cried when they got their "feet wet" and your Brilliant Leader,(LOL) Stalin and the Russian People, and the peoples of the Soviet Occupied Territories, carried the brunt of the fighting in Europe,(and they did)but don't forget the savage fighting in the disease-infested South Pacific against a fanatical foe more than willing to die for their Emperor. I don't recall any "Rooskies" in that Theater until it was "safe" to be there. And the Rooskies were never asked to help the Allies there either....
In any case, haven't you figured it out yet?? The Americans generally fight a helluva lot smarter and don't like to engage in those Slaughterfests the Euros are so fond of......
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 04-27-2001).]
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Heh cabby, yeah, we were really begging for WWII.
All men women and children here wanted the war.
The reason we allowed it to become a slaughterfest had nothing to do with *survival of nations* but everything to do with a wish to see some blood.
You say you're smarter than this - prove it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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I think what cabby is referring to is the rcok em sock em bip boom bah wars you have had over there. Dunno but what about the civil war here in the US? We lost over 1 million would that not qualify as a blood bath as well cabby?
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Cabby, here we go again... US was playing war on some small islands forgotten by god for almost 4 years, while Soviet army destroyed Quantung army (1.5 million soldiers!) in 2 weeks. It started hostilities exatly when it was agreed in Yalta. Remember how many times "second front" was postponed?
Miko, maybe you think that Latvian "SS legion" murderers are "hundreeds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainians"?! Or maybe this "hundreeds of thousands" are the Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army? Something wrong with arythmetics?
Miko, my grand-uncle was a Cossak officer who survived civil-war cleansings on Don. When GPW began he volunteered as a soldier, only thinking that he will desert and join Germans to fight Bolsheviks. He thought that the new war will be like WWI. But then he saw what are that brave Arians doing to Russia... He finished a war in Germany in 1945.
BTW, when I first noticed your posts - I though that you are a Ukrainian nationalist, banderovets, who emigrated from katsaps (or do they call us "moskals"?) and waves the yellow-blue flag with a "volya" trident in another hand. Now you speak like that again, and according to a discussion logic the next thing you'll say will be that Babiy Yar was arranged by Bolsheviks, and western Ukrainians are the best friends to Jews. Am i right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Miko: what stops China from increasing its trade through russia for the similar amount?
I'm pretty sure that if the US starts messing with China, the russians will do their best to help the chinese.
All they have to do is increase the price of pirated cd:s with 20% (so you get only 10 cd's for $20 instead of 13)
Everyone of you, who are pro-war are the true ignorants. War is barely acceptable only when it happens to protect your own country from invasion. Even then it creates a huge tragedy for all involved. Something you video-game numbed kiddies won't seem to understand.
The US government did a nice job censoring the last war, it looked just like playing falcon 4.. It was a big media victory for the coalition. They learned a lot from Vietnam, now it's a lot easyer to sell a war to the crowds.
Hollywood producers are probably the only ones who will profit from this conflict (if Chinese won't manage to nuke h-wood first..)
I agree that Taiwan should be helped to protect itself somehow.. This missile hungry attitude of the people up there is just beginning to make me sick.
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I think the numbers are $80 million USD on the imbalance, in China's favor.
Why don't they go to Russia? Probably because the Russians aren't nearly as stupid as we are about trade. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Think the Russians are going to lend them the money to buy from Russia? In USD? Last I heard, the Russians wanted all the USD they could get. Think the Chinese want Rubles?
Think the Russians will give them MFN status?
Think the Russians will run an $80 million USD imbalance with them?
Think the Russians will be willing to swap front line technology for little GI IVAN toys, Barbiskie dolls and flip-flop sandals?
You guys crack me up.
They trade with us because it is a deal so forking good for them that NO other nation on earth would be foolish enough to give them anything remotely like it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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A newer, freer China. I guess before their newfound progressive government, he would have simply been shot?
Man arrested for posting on the internet. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010427/aponline104144_000.htm)
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Fer Cripes sake Fatty!
He was advocating POLITICAL REFORM!!!!!
You can excuse anything can't you? Political Reform, Man! There HAS to be a limit!
Anyway, he only got 4 years. Probably in a cell full of potential pets... likes rats and roaches. Gifts of a benevolent government.
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Toad: the $ aren't coming from Russian government or even russians themselves.
The Russian mafia deals the marketing via russia to all over the world, and the business is very big.
Biggest part of the profit remains with mafia (they don't obviously pay taxes..)
But the final profit ends up to the chinese economy.
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i think yer right!
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A russian complains about the delay of overlord.....As if the Russians could have crossed the channel except on the bodies of their dead.
Some one says that Lend lease was the only reason the Russians were successful in WW2.
I can see why this isnt in the History area.
Someone says if the chinese beat the US then they will just have to fight one of the American Allies...I hope he doesnt mean Canada..we cant do squat to keep Chinese illegals out of canada Forget keeping the Peoples army out of Taiwan.
If the Chinese hand it to the US over Taiwan..then it is a done deal. No one else can affect the issue at all except the Japanese..I doubt the Taiwanese will invite them in.....
China vs Taiwan and the US is an interesting Harpoon Scenario but a pretty silly war.
I dont think the Chinese have the ability to cross 100 miles of ocean that the US doenst want to let them...not yet.
The most likey "war" that would happen is that the Chinese would nuke Taiwan.
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Sid,
The problem is that the Chinese sell us primarily toys, footwear and cheap clothing. That is their export.
Now are you telling me that there is a huge demand in Russia for GI Ivan toys, Barbiesky dolls, flip-flop sandals (fur-lined model for winter)and cheap cotton T-shirts?
You have to have a market. I doubt there is any country in the world that truly wants most of the stuff the Chinese are selling to create that trade imbalance we have with them.
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Pongo, two words: Manchurian operation. That's exactly how Russians do massive offencive operations.
Toad, I liked that "GI IVAN" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Very nice joke!
The case is that China exports to Russia contain so-called "mass-consumption goods", exactly as you described. Chineese goods are usually very cheap and the quality is extremely poor. Hehe, 5 or 7 years ago I saw a very funny street advertising: "Come to our shop! Chineese goods from all over the world!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for Russian mafia - what exactly do you mean? It reminds me of an old joke. An old Jew calls the Russian nationalist party office. "Is it true that Jews sold out the whole Russia?" - "Yes, you Jewish freak! Why the hell do you call us!?" - "Just wondering where can I get my personal share?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) RuSsIaN MaFiA \m/ is another stupidity invented by Western press, another "newspeak" phrase like "ethnic cleansings" or "evil empire".
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Toad: I'm talking about mass production of ALL kinds of pirated products. CD-Roms, Audio-CD's, Nike shoes, Levi jeans, Kodak cameras, Playstation games.. The list is neverending.
I suggest you go to a marketplace somewhere in central-europe or eastern europe and you'll have a small idea of the scale of the business.
Truckloads of bootleg products get caught daily being delivered through russia to different countries.. And always most of the products skip customs officers. They even sell women for slaves for crying out loud!
It's a huge business, and it doesn't show on any official figures because even in russia the business is illegal.
However in China the factories work on legal basis so I'd expect some percentage of the profit to end up also to the government.
Probably not enough to cover the loss created by losing US customers, but still quite big enough to be taken into consideration.
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Just ended readin the whole site about this.
Wow.
I'm gettin ripped between two oppinions. First - Some Warhungry Egomaniacs have nothin better to do as to start a war. Damn you, isn't enough dead and sorrow in this world?? Crazy Lunatics. I worked 2 years for the Doctors without Boarders Organisation and saw lot's of victims - mostly and only children. After I got almost killed two times my wife begged me not to go anymore - for the sake of my own children.
Then the shootin start is the "Ideology" or "Politics" or what ever humbug forgoten. Everybody just shoot - on other Humans. For what? Doesn't matter anymore. The main thing is to kill someone. Have you ever smelled burned Flesh? Ever seen a little Child in a total shock from lookin at his dead Mother? People dying just because there is no water? This is and this only the real war. The rest is Hollywood.
The second oppinion? Doesn't matter anymore.
Homo Homini Lupus est.
Sailor
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I think all we are seeing is posturing.
To the Chinese, the US is as evil and one-sided as the US view the Chinese as evil and one-sided. Famous documentary on the life of a Canadian student living in Beijing that re-enforced this fact - can't remember the name...
I've seen this all before in my U.N. work experience. This is all about posturing, image, and diplomacy. China is trying to become a world power and is attempting to flex it's muscle, and it has every right to do so.
Will it lead to war? Probably not. Nukes are the deterrent.
RIPSNORT, stop reading Tom Clancy!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Vruth
[This message has been edited by Vruth (edited 05-02-2001).]
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I had to post this... a friend of mine from the States sent it to me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://casal.upc.es/~danig27/usa1.JPG)
Daniel, aka CyranoDB
[This message has been edited by CyranoAH (edited 05-02-2001).]
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Quote:
"To the Chinese, the US is as evil and one-sided as the US view the Chinese as evil and one-sided. "
But the Communist Chinese government IS evil. That's the difference. If you can't SEE the difference well, either you are ignorant or a Communist/Totalitarian sympathizer. Don't give me that "our country is no better than their country" drivel...
As for "burnt babies", the USA maintains a strong National Defense precisely because we want to prevent the possibility of that happening to Americans on American soil. Again, if you can't comprehend that.......
Good for GW for not kissing totalitarian ass.
Cabby
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Ah, I get now Sid.
The Chinese factories that produce toys, flip-flops and cheap T-shirts for the US trade will suddenly and seamlessly switch to "pirated goods" quickly and painlessly making up for the shortfall of no trade with the US.
Man, that's such a good deal I just can't imagine why they bother to trade with the US right now, can you?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Toad: I doubt any of the factories produce anything just for US trade. Like I said earlier, US may be big, but it's not the world (even though many of you seem to think so.)
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In yesterdays news, it went almost unnoticed that the U.S. has broke off any Military Communications with the Chinese military.
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Hmm, Rip, I heard it on the radio this morning, but only because Pentagon officials said it's not true...
Looks like someone spreads rumours to make the situation worse?
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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LOL, Sid.
Check the trade numbers again. You'll see the answer. These are for 1999. The 2000's are out and I think the US share is a bit higher.
Check Table 4: China's Top Trade Partners (Total Trade, $ million)
Country 1999 % change % of Total PRC Trade Rank 1998
1 Japan 18.3%
2 United States 17.0%
3 Hong Kong 12.1% (and they RUN HK now, so they're now trading with themsleves. Not export then is it?)
4 South Korea 6.9%
5 Taiwan 6.5%
6 Germany 4.5%
7 Singapore 2.4%
8 United Kingdom 2.2%
9 France 1.9%
10 Netherlands 1.8%
http://www.uschina.org/press/tradetable.html (http://www.uschina.org/press/tradetable.html)
Hmm. Gee, Mr. Sid WHERE'S RUSSIA? Russian is NOT one of their top 10 trade partners now but is going to jump in and soak up the US's lost 17%?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-03-2001).]
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Yep, you are correct Boroda, apparently it was a Pentagon goof, not a media one:
BEIJING (Reuters) - China stressed on Thursday the importance of
military ties with the United States after the U.S. Defense Department
reversed an order that mistakenly suspended bilateral military
exchanges.
"China-U.S. military to military ties are an important component of the
bilateral relationship," a Foreign Ministry official told Reuters. "Military to
military exchanges have always been two-way and based on equality
and consultation."
A Pentagon spokesman said on Wednesday Defense Secretary Donald
Rumsfeld had ordered that all of the modest military ties between China
and the United States be suspended.
But two hours later, another Pentagon spokesman said the order had
"misinterpreted" Rumsfeld's intention to subject bilateral contacts such
as ship visits and military personnel exchanges with Beijing to a
case-by-case review.
"We took note of the comments from the Defense Department
spokesman but we have not yet received a formal notice from the U.S.
side," the Chinese foreign ministry official said.
Reuters News Service..
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MrSid, you are correct the US is not the world.
Chinas two largest trading partners are the US and Japan. Japan and the USA have almost half of the worlds (GNP) between them. if you think that China could replace that market with Europe you may be mistaken. The US. economy is larger than most of Europes combined. And it is almost four times larger than Germanys (Europes largest economy)
China knows where its economic stability lies and it is not in European markets.
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Rip I work for the Pentagon as a contractor, and I have heard of no such thing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
Rip I work for the Pentagon as a contractor, and I have heard of no such thing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thank God! The day our contractors know more than the Pentagon is the day I move to Canada!
That news story was on the AP wire this morning (See above post)
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This mornings newspaper said the Army trashed the beret deal with china. They won't put chinese berets on Soldiers. I'm not sure if that is really going to happen but I for one am not sad to think the beret deal is going away! Damn stupid idea.
Mav
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Thank God! The day our contractors know more than the Pentagon is the day I move to Canada!
That news story was on the AP wire this morning (See above post)
Sad day it is, a lot of the work force is civilian (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Cut backs has done its job. I separated almost 1 year ago and moved a whopping 2 blocks from my old work center. And BTW where I work I deal with a lot of what is going on in the world. Search and rescue, Nuc Ops, just to name a few. Funny I am a contractor but my boss is a 0-6 up at the pentagon some 200 miles away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
HQ/USAF at its finest.
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[This message has been edited by AG (edited 05-03-2001).]