Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: EN4CER on March 22, 2006, 11:36:27 PM
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This is for Seagoon. I asked this question in Theology Class my junior year in High School and got suspended for three days because the teacher (Nun – Sisters of Mercy) could not answer my question. I didn’t help myself in that I pushed her buttons because she really didn’t have an answer for me and tried to tap dance her way through it. I kept replying “But sister that still does not answer my question.” After three or four of my replies I get called an atheist and get broomed to the principals office for the old chat with her and my parents. Personal history aside I always enjoyed a good creationist debate especially when I was at St. John’s University – Ontological Argument, Theological Argument, Cosmological Argument, Pascal’s Wager, etc.
The question is “If God is so all forgiving then why is there a hell?”
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"You have to ask for forgiveness to be forgiven... *******."
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Let me check my new Bible that Seagoon got for me...in Mark 9:15 it basically says that they deny God as their creator, that they loved darkness instead of light. In Revelation 21:4 it is said, "Scripture describes heaven as a spatial reality that touches and interpenetrates created space". It is what you want it to be.
That probably didn't help much but I tried.
In Mark 9:15 it also states that hell is basically the counter to Heaven (obviously). In thinking that heaven is great beyond all imagination, Hell is a horrible place, the direct opposite of heaven. Hell is to scare people into not sinning. Who want's to live in a land of fire and gnashing teeth for the infinite future?
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'Cause god needs someplace to send the queers and those of lesser faiths.
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Hell is life on earth. Thats what motivates (some) people to look inward for faith in a better place, the afterlife. Of course, the more evolved cultures become, the lazier and fatter the people get and the more they enjoy the here and now and the less inclined they are to believe in God and pray....until that semi trailer crosses the centerline and heads for their slovenly oil gushy stuffy SUVs, then of course, they pray hard and sincerely for a few miliseconds......
and poor places like afganistan, sudan.... craphole places like that, where life literally sucks so bad that just waking up in the morning is a bummer, they get real high on God real young and the thought of getting to heaven quickly seems like a real fine alternative, theres some trouble in that.
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Originally posted by SOB
'Cause god needs someplace to send the queers and those of lesser faiths.
I note you seperate yourself from those of lesser faiths in this. ;)
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I thought it was for everyone that didn't vote for Bush.
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Originally posted by rpm
I thought it was for everyone that didn't vote for Bush.
Ah .... so lesbians being the exception to rule. :D
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ying-yang
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According to Judaism there isn`t hell.
IMO there isn`t heaven either.
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Heaven is here on earth, living in a western society.
:cool:
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The question is “If God is so all forgiving then why is there a hell?”
Mrs. God had a better lawyer.
"Heaven is here on earth, living in a western society."
Oh yeah? You have never seen my Japanese girlfriend...
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hell is the place where Arlo is the only form of entertainment. welcome back.
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His invitation is simple. Either except it or not. Those too proud, or too worldly, will find out.
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Originally posted by Arlo
I note you seperate yourself from those of lesser faiths in this. ;)
Nah, I worship the sun and cheeseburgers. I'm going to hell too. :t
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Originally posted by storch
hell is the place where Arlo is the only form of entertainment. welcome back.
Thank you. And now ... for my next trick .... ;)
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Originally posted by SOB
Nah, I worship the sun and cheeseburgers. I'm going to hell too. :t
Mmmmmm ... cheeseburger. Now ya done it. :rolleyes:
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mmmm...cheeseburger, SOB must be the devil, he tempts me.
best cheeseburger in tampabay, ted peters restaurant in Pasadena.
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Yes God is all forgiving, but we have to ask for this forgiveness. The dark angels fell becuase they went against God. They needed a place to go that will sepereate them from God for ever.
Our mortal life is an experience of free will to love, but unfortunatly we can fall into sin, but we have to repent and ask for forgiveness. Our souls do not want seperation from God, but our flesh is week. Eternity lasts for ever, what do you want? To know God will be the answer to these questions.
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If God is so forgiving, then why is there a hell?
'Cause god needs someplace to send the queers and those of lesser faiths. -SOB
Please don't denigrate Islam this way, somebody will put a fatwa on your hide.
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Hello En4cer,
Originally posted by EN4CER
The question is "If God is so all forgiving then why is there a hell"ďż˝
Judging from the current state of the thread it looks like the decision not to go with a dedicated ask Seagoon thread was probably wise.
Anyway, while I'm happy to answer, I sense this is not a question that you are genuinely struggling with, but rather more along the lines of the kind of "if your religion is true (which I don't don't for a moment believe it is) then answer this conundrum" question that I used to pepper the members of the "Christian Union" at my old University with. The unfortunate thing about that kind of question of course is that there are no answers that will ever satisfy the questioner, because he doesn't want an answer so much as to have his own presuppositions proven right.
In any event, your question includes an assumption about God that scripture tells us isn't true. God is not all forgiving, he is truly good, truly holy, truly just, and truly merciful. And the way those qualities work together will tell us a lot about why there is a hell and why it is possible for some men to go to heaven. So that for instance, in displaying his nature to Moses the Lord proclaimed in part: “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty” (Exodus 34:6)
God's Holiness and his Justice demands that evil be punished, it would by no means be fair or good or just for evil-doers to get away with their wrong-doing, or worse yet to be rewarded for it. Our own natural sense of equity, for instance, would be repulsed at the idea that Hitler or Stalin might commit acts of desperate evil all their lives, never changing in that, and yet enter into heaven at their death. We would say, no if God is good and just, although they have escaped the justice of man, their must be a final accounting for such evil.
But while we are usually o.k. with Hell as Hitler's final reward, we seldom stop to consider who amongst us is really without sin and "worthy" of Heaven? What is the estate of all mankind? Simply put, the Bible tells us that soon after his Creation man sinned against God and fell from his original state of innocence. Sin is defined biblically as disobedience (either by ommission or commission) to the commands of God. From that point onwards, man was by nature inclined to sin, a rebel against God and not the friend of his Creator, but his natural enemy (Gen. 8:21, Eph. 2:1-3, etc.). Now from the very beginning God would have been justified in simply letting a race of rebels and traitors receive the reward of justice by letting us all go to Hell. But in addition to being just and good, God is also merciful.
Accordingly, the Bible also tells us that God determined to save mankind from the eternal punishment they deserved by an act of unmerited mercy. This salvation though, could only be accomplished if someone else was to satisfy the demands of justice in the place of sinful man. Someone would have to suffer punishment in our place. And the person who did this would Himself have to be sinless and perfect. In turn, those saved by this sacrifice would need a righteousness that would qualify them to inherit heaven and allow them to live forever in the presence of a Holy God. This is what Christ, the Son of God, came into the world to do: "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21)
This work of Christ as the Savior of His people was proclaimed throughout the Old Testament, but perhaps the most moving and striking of these prophecies occurs in Isaiah 53:
"4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked -- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors."
Christ who came into the world to save sinners, from Hell frequently warned them of the reality of it, saying that it was a place where the "worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched", a place of "darkness; [where] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and urged men to repent and believe in Him that they might be Saved from it.
So, as Romans 9 puts it, sinful man receives either God's perfect justice, in receiving the due reward for his sins through punishment in Hell, or mercy through faith in Christ. Those who believe in Him are assured that He has "paid in full" the penalty due for their sins, and has suffered the pains of Hell on their behalf. Therefore all their sins are forgiven and they are forever changed, going from rebels and enemies, to adopted sons of God and heirs of heaven by his redeeming grace.
That in a nutshell is the good news of the Gospel as it is spelled out in the Scripture. That is the answer to your question. Of course believing it is another thing entirely...
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by BTAirsol
Yes God is all forgiving, but we have to ask for this forgiveness. The dark angels fell becuase they went against God. They needed a place to go that will sepereate them from God for ever.
Our mortal life is an experience of free will to love, but unfortunatly we can fall into sin, but we have to repent and ask for forgiveness. Our souls do not want seperation from God, but our flesh is week. Eternity lasts for ever, what do you want? To know God will be the answer to these questions.
OOOOOOOKAY,
Here's a couple for ya. Granted they are "tongue in cheek" but they do touch on those issues that are a quandry to earthly "knowledge" or conjecture anyhow.
If God is all knowing, all powerful and omnipotent why did he make angels that would reject him? If He is all knowing, why bother with creating a llife form that has "free will". He would already know how any of his creations would turn out and what they would decide so why bother? Goingin along with that issue, if a soull, another of God's creations, is created by God, and already in Heaven, why send it to live an earthly existance where it could go afoul of God's plan and there by earn unending torment in Hell? In other words why torment the lil' critters?
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Hi En4cer,
One final thought, if you are interested, two books that might help in understanding what the Bible teaches about Hell are:
(http://www.cvbbs.com/inventory/0851518117.gif)
Heaven and Hell by Edward Donnelly (http://www.cvbbs.com/inventory.php?target=indiv&search_back=keywords%3D%26searchstyle%3Dadvanced%26page%3D1%26session%3D2a3cd44253a0c1df9d65455f2d102b52%26title_keyword%3DHell%26isbn_keyword%3D%26publisher_keyword%3D%26author_keyword%3D%26sort_by%3DAUTHOR&bookid=3656)
(http://www.cvbbs.com/inventory/0852343035.gif)
Whatever Happened to Hell? by John Blanchard (http://www.cvbbs.com/inventory.php?target=indiv&search_back=keywords%3D%26searchstyle%3Dadvanced%26page%3D1%26session%3D2a3cd44253a0c1df9d65455f2d102b52%26title_keyword%3DHell%26isbn_keyword%3D%26publisher_keyword%3D%26author_keyword%3D%26sort_by%3DAUTHOR&bookid=5207)
- SEAGOON
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Maverick, God wants us to love him out of choice our choice. He does not want robots. Our mission on earth is based on what he wants us to do? What that means is, we have to know God, have a relationship with him. He graces us with our gifts. Gifts like God given talents. We all have gifts. We have to share these gifts with our fellow brothers and sisters. Just as the gospels tell us. This is our mission, but to understand this mission we have to know God/Christ/Spirit...Trinity.
A simple anology is the image of our human family. We have a father and mother who are one flesh, we have children that are gifts from this union. Our kids experience free choice based on their choices they make in life. Our kids are not robots. They choose to love us or hate us. The role of parenthood is like a very small example of how God works.
I forgot to answer your about the angels. God did not make them go against him. They chose to. Free will.
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That still brings us back to the same situation. If God is all powerfull and most importantly, all knowing, why bother about free will. If He knows everything already there is no reason to create angels or people including ones with free will is there? It's not like He's rolling dice or flipping a coin to see what happens. He already KNOWS what will happen. No suspense there.
I know I'm pulling your chain and am not serious with these questions but they do highlight the earthly impression of or concept of God. ;) He's kind of quixotic at times. :confused:
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Originally posted by BTAirsol
Yes God is all forgiving, but we have to ask for this forgiveness. The dark angels fell becuase they went against God. They needed a place to go that will sepereate them from God for ever.
Our mortal life is an experience of free will to love, but unfortunatly we can fall into sin, but we have to repent and ask for forgiveness. Our souls do not want seperation from God, but our flesh is week. Eternity lasts for ever, what do you want? To know God will be the answer to these questions.
Yeah baybeee ... I'm all for free love. :D
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Mavrick, I feel the chain and its heavy!. To answer why God allows this? We can never know God fully, he created this life, so the answer is because he is God. It is not done for him, it is done for us for growth to attain enternal being with him. He gave his Son up for us, that say's a lot so we are not lost. A two way street. Yes he knows how all will end, but we don't.
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god laughs at you stupid mortals and thinks "what a mess i made, i will do better next time".
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Hello Seagoon,
Thank you for the response. I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic Household. I graduated from Catholic H.S. and a Catholic University. I would consider myself Semi-Agnostic for now. I believe that some higher being or entity is responsible for our existence (Design and Cosmological Argument are suffice for me), I just don’t buy the Bible word for word – never have never will. For the record, in all my years of asking this question (Recently had the dust blown off it thanks to you – haven’t discussed this one in quite some time) – Best answer to date. I wish my Theology teacher in H.S. would have responded with that answer – might have saved me a suspension. I agree that the answer to the question hinges on not just ones religion but more on their interpretation of God and what they expect from him (or her – who knows) and their religion – accountability, responsibility, etc. omnipotent deity or moral ruler / both? That foundation coupled with the framework of Heaven and Hell which paradigms the classic struggle of Good vs. Evil / Ying and Yang / “For every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction.” To simply state it in one word is “Balance.” With balance comes Order and Chaos. If God forgave everyone for everything then what is the purpose of the religion, judgment, and Heaven – it creates chaos so Hell is established thus balancing out the situation. Is it a correct answer – No not at all but it satisfies me based on my expectations of my religion and God. On a side note I will be purchasing the books you recommended. I need a little change from the normal conservative books that I’m usually occupied with.
Originally posted by john9001
god laughs at you stupid mortals and thinks "what a mess i made, i will do better next time".
I won't go that far John9001 but sometimes I wonder if he put us here for his own personal amusement.
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EN4CER, I am a convert of 7 years now in our Roman Catholic faith. The gift we have is the Eucharist. The grace from the Eucharist is what provides us with Christs Spirit fully body soul divenity. It is the real presence. Maybe you might be experiencing the hunger? Come back to the table. Read John 6.
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Again I thought that God was all things. If that is the case, why would He limit Himself to accepting the accolades and worship from only one narrow religious format? (IE a specific Chritian sect) Sounds like men (humanity if you will) placing limits on that which by definition has no limits.
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Originally posted by EN4CER
Hello Seagoon,
Thank you for the response. I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic Household. I graduated from Catholic H.S. and a Catholic University. I would consider myself Semi-Agnostic for now. I believe that some higher being or entity is responsible for our existence (Design and Cosmological Argument are suffice for me), I just don’t buy the Bible word for word – never have never will. For the record, in all my years of asking this question (Recently had the dust blown off it thanks to you – haven’t discussed this one in quite some time) – Best answer to date. I wish my Theology teacher in H.S. would have responded with that answer – might have saved me a suspension.
Just thought it might be worth noting, I also went to a Roman Catholic school for some of my elementary and all of my middle school education (St. Rose of Lima, Millburn, NJ). At the time, I was a skeptical unbeliever, but the "Religion" class coupled with the general hypocrisy of the students and staff (for instance we had a Priest the boys referred to as "Father Touchy McFeeley" for obvious reasons) actually moved me from skepticism about Christianity to open antipathy. I too was disciplined for asking irritating questions, and I wish I could say it was only once. Religion was taught by a Nun whose pat answer to everything was "its a mystery" - the final straw came for me after she taught that "the change that occurs in the Mass is a mystery to us, just like the change of colors of the leaves. We don't know how either of them happen, but they are both marvelous." I didn't even wait to raise my hand, but just blurted out "That's ridiculous! Of course we know why the leaves change color, what you mean is you don't know why the leaves change color." This resulted in an immediate trip to the principal, where I was lectured on respect, and told that if the Sister said we don't know, then I should keep my trap shut. I left the school determined that if that was Christianity, then I heartily despised it.
Suffice it to say, that while I was a thoroughly rotten kid, I later discovered that what I had observed there was a bad caricature of the Christian faith.
I'd encourage you to do what I eventually did and unlearn the bad lessons and examples of youth. I've found as a pastor that you and I aren't the only people whose impressions of Christianity were tarred and warped by childhood experiences of lousy teaching, blatant hypocrisy, and baseless tradition. If you can do that, and actually begin to examine the truth claims of the Christian faith from a fresh perspective you might be surprised. Finding people whose living out of the faith is authentic rather than contrived doesn't hurt either.
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So Seagoon,
Using your example, for example. Are you stating what you saw was an imperfect religion or merely an imperfect human who has an imperfect interpretation of a religion? Secondly what would make another human interpretation of a religious document any more valid than anothers? Please, no more scholastic references complete with footnotes from another individual who also is making a human interpretation of a religious document.
Does religion constitute faith or does faith constitute a religion?
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Maverick did seagoons opinion not set well with you? I read that the imperfect person can affect anothers opinion when you are young and not fully educated in the faith. Simple answer people are imperfect, faith is our belief in God who is perfect. Religion is a term used to classify or define. Nothing todo with perfection.
I teach RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for adults). I see some adults knowledge of Catholic teaching is from a adolesant point of view. Not fully knowing the faith. I see fallen away Catholics come back to the faith. The reason they left was because of people. Faith is in God not people.