Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: leonid on January 26, 2001, 11:05:00 PM
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Well, I seem to have reached my limit of tolerance for extreme conservative values: you know, threats of revolution, righteousness, meanness, generalizations, and propaganda. I swear, you guys would've made great Bolsheviks.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against conservatives in general. In fact, many of them are quite willing to find compromise with their liberal bretheren, and view the antics of the extreme right with embarassment. Just as I find leftists like those who egged the President's limo on his inauguration as deplorable.
Dowding, Fd-ski, and the rest of the crew, carry on. I'm on R&R (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Huh?
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Mietla,
I think he means the liberals are still unable to present convincing arguments for their pet causes so he's taking a break.
Note the last gun thread, the school voucher thread, etc. Check to see who is proposing compromise and who isn't. Check to see who is making the bigoted statements and who isn't.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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you are so full of crap you sting over 23 jumps in my internet connection . how can any human try to present the conservatives , on this bbs or anywhere in the universe as the voice of comprimise . or non bigoted . still got some of the coke bushes dady imported socked away? sheesh
sorry fellos dmocrats just cant let um get away with beeing all for everyone even in their own little standard issue minds.
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Hmmmm,let me see, towd doesn't address the issue but starts personal attacks. Name calling seems to be the maggot infested, dope smoking, FM types favorite tactic, hehe ya gotta love em though. They make everyone appear as mental giants (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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So true 1776.
Towd, thanks for proving my point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Aye Leonid. I've been asked by fellow Brits why I post here. They can't stand it. And I can't give them an answer.
I think I miss my uni. debating, and I was used to getting entangled with right-wing, Christian fundamentalists. Maybe the conservatives on this board remind me (only in a small way, you understand (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) of them.
To many on this board a socialist will always be a communist, and a liberal a liberty threatening Stalinist. Dope-smoking will always be a filthy, sordid affair, whereas alcohol is quite all right (it makes you a man, right?).
And then there are those who are surprised when they are attacked for expressing overtly racist opinions (a minority, thank god).
I have to say, that my opinions of Americans has been coloured since posting here. I used to think they were pretty liberal and not that much different from us (except for the spelling thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
That has been pretty much turned on its head, especially in relation to the gun control issue. But I guess this community is far from a representative sample of the American population.
It's been... interesting.
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I think the basic difference is that those that are labeled "conservative" are more likely NOT to interfere in the affairs of others.
The guiding principle, for me at least, is that if what you are doing is not a danger to another person or the environment and is not illegal in your government/society then what you do is your business and your business alone.
What possible business could it be of mine?
OTOH, those that are labeled "liberal" seem to be the most likely to interfere with a person's right to do as he pleases under the same above stated conditions.
I now feel that "liberals" are more likely to try to force conformation to their way of thinking. These threads have reinforced that feeling to an incredible level.
While you feel uncomfortable, I do as well.
With my outlook, I thought everyone would just have their own views and accept the other person's views as just that: personal views. As long as the above conditions were met, no harm done, no freedom lost...just animated discussions.
Now I'm beginning to feel that I will eventually be the target of a "holy war". I don't think I'm going to be left alone to live my life as I see fit, within the above mentioned constraints. This is not a good thing.
For the first time ever, I'm beginning to wonder if it's all going to work out.
While I don't care WHAT you do as long as it's legal, many people seem deeply interested in stopping ME from doing things that are legal within the above constraints.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Basically, believe what you like and allow others the same privilege. Is that so hard?
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Here is the line I found interesting:
Well, I seem to have reached my limit of tolerance for extreme conservative values: you know, threats of revolution, righteousness, meanness, generalizations, and propaganda. I swear, you guys would've made great Bolsheviks.
I totally agree a lot of that happened, but it happened both ways; witness the last eight words of the quote. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have been as guilty of any of venting my spleen, but that hasn't been intended to be directed at anyone but my own government. I have tried to respect the opinions of those who have posted in the same threads. So what if people disagreed with me? I didn't call their discussion "banal", now did I?
Fundamentally it seems many of us are intolerant, but don't for a second think that is only the conservatives. Leonid, I like you as much as I can like anyone I've never met, but your posts have been as combative as anything I've read. None of us have been entirely right or wrong, IMHO.
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Well, Kiren...maybe there is hope. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Just curious? Since Bush won, does anyone know what country Alec Baldwin moved to (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Are you guys talking about politics?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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I won't be wronged,
I won't be insulted,
I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to other people,
and I require the same from them.
- --John Wayne, from "The Shootist
Pretty simple, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Have the .wav file but don't know how to make it work here. Always eager to learn tho...
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-29-2001).]
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Hey, I'm not pissed, so much as burned-out. I've gotten used to this forum's 'style' for awhile now, and I don't really take it as a place of meshing ideas anymore. Not my choice, but others appear set on using this forum as their own verbal bludgeoning tool. Hey, whatever. I think the only reason I post here is to let people who visit this forum know that not everyone thinks alike in the USA.
And it looks like Bush won't let me go on R&R, not with talk of funding 'faith-based' organizations with federal money. Why are religious groups now being referred to as 'faith-based'? To get a better shot at dancing around the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights?
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Originally posted by Toad:
I think the basic difference is that those that are labeled "conservative" are more likely NOT to interfere in the affairs of others.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.
That is too funny. That has got to be the biggest joke I've seen posted on this board.
Let me see, things that I've seen stated by Conservatives as things they would like to enforce on others personal lives:
You MUST speak english.
You MUST pray in school.
You MUST NOT have an abortion.
You MUST NOT use contraceptives.
You MUST NOT read things that are outside of the community's standards.
You MUST NOT view things that are outside of the community's standards.
Things that I've seen stated by Liberals as things they would like to enforce on others personal lives:
You MUST submit to a background check when buying a firearm.
You MAY NOT own certain kinds of firearms. (I have problems with this one).
Your children MUST be educated in such a way that modern science is included in their curriculum.
Conservatives are way, WAY more interested in intruding in our personal lives.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Drug test for Karnak please! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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No, I'm not.
You have pretty selectively framed your examples.
Where is the all inclusive monolithic conservative group that:
Insists one speak English at ALL times? School? Yes, I've seen that. Public offices, yes I've seen that. Seems to me a single language in these areas is a benefit to society. However, I'm labled a "conservative" and yet I have no real big concern in this area. I don't lose sleep over it either way.
Must pray in school? LOL, the argument I've seen is that those THAT WISH to pray be given a moment of silence to do that. Yet even THAT is not acceptable to the intolerant opposition. Isn't that a personal freedom to believe? I've yet to see any attempt to FORCE prayer on those who don't want to do so.
Must not have an abortion? I've seen groups that want to prevent legal abortion except in certain circumstances. They do exist. As well as groups that don't care if a person gets an abortion except that they think the government should be paying for it.
That's pretty much little old "conservative" me; I don't care what you do as long as it's legal. It's your business but I don't see why I should have to pay for it.
Must not use contraceptives? I'm guessing you're talking about the Catholics and the Pope. Otherwise, I haven't heard of a conservative group pushing this idea either. With the Catholics, it's religious belief/guidance from their leader. Not all of them follow it. But, by your description all Catholics would thus be *($%&*#(_@ conservatives, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Banning books and video that doesn't meet "community standards"? Yes, I've seen attempts to do this as well. It's another thing little old conservative me doesn't agree with...IF...it's just a personal thing. For example, I wouldn't want to see "snuff porn" broadcast on TV or "kiddie porn" sold to minors in the local Waldenbooks. But if you're an adult what you do for entertainment in private sure isn't any business of mine. I'm a conservative? I guess so.
I differ with you most certainly. My beliefs are simple and straight forward. I've stated them in the previous posts.
I think most _true_ conservatives think that way.
I have no time for those that would forcepersonal beliefs on another person. No matter what side of the political spectrum they purportedly occupy.
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Leonid, I personally think that a minority of each party can smear the party in general, but I know many liberals and conservatives that are great folks...I think its time we meet half way on some issues, and not let the talking heads and politicians make a dividing line between the parties.
I try and keep an open mind about everyones special interests, and have even voted for local Dems in the last two elections.
My biggest problem is 'more federal control'...I don't believe Big Brother is a very good authority over my life. If there is going to be more control, I'd rather have it be state control, that way I can move to a state that has no such big brother control and not have to worry about it being a federal issue.
<S> Leonid, hope we get to meet someday!
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Gotta respond (though I know I will be sorry):
You MUST speak english.
And how do we expect people to survive in our society if they don't even speak the language? Talk about putting up barriers! Standardized testing (required by universities for entry) are going to heavily favor english-speaking students. English is the language of most of the businesses in the country. English is accepted in about every city you go to. This does not seem to be an unreasonable demand.
You MUST pray in school.
This has never happened, unless you went to parochial schools which were founded by churches. Public schools have never demanded you pray. They used to allow the opportunity if you desired, but even that doesn't happen now. Further, I have never seen one conservative proposal to make prayer mandatory. As it is now, even Parent/Teacher organizations are not allowed to pray if they desire- that's right, even if it is their choice to do so.
You MUST NOT have an abortion.
There is a wide spectrum on this one. Some say absolutely none, some say to limit so that it is not as casual as a drive-through restaurant. Our friends on the other side like to call it "Pro-choice", and trivialize the whole event. I'd have to say that anytime you are ending a life you need to have a good reason, wouldn't you?
You MUST NOT use contraceptives.
This is perhaps my favorite one- set aside that not all religions ban contraceptives (mine sure doesn't), our friends on the other side have us passing out contraceptives in our high schools. All they need do now is provide a free period and a dark room. It's one thing to say "teens will have sex, no way to stop it", it is another thing altogether to encourage the growth of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases in our very own schools. Might as well pass out liquor and dope too, because they won't stop doing that, either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wonder why schools are doing so poorly, don't you?
You MUST NOT read things that are outside of the community's standards.
If you are talking about schools again, let me let you in on how public schools work. You have a Superintendent who assembles a staff. They coordinate the daily operations of the school and manage the long-range status as well. They recommend curriculum, but the school board must pass the recommendations given to them. If the community is conservative, you will see a conservative agenda. If you see liberal, liberal agenda. What is wrong with that? Education is a state concern, and local input is valuable too. What you seem to suggest is that we socialize education to make certain that it is applied exactly the same throughout the country. Fine, but that isn't the way it is currently legislated, so there is nothing wrong with a community setting its own standards. Being conservative or liberal has nothing to do with it.
You MUST NOT view things that are outside of the community's standards.
How about funding for works of art? Who pays for that? The taxpayers. Quick show of hands... who wants to see a canvas splashed with elephant dung? Who thinks that is art? Who is happy the price tag came out of their pocket? NEA (National Endowment of the Arts) has the responsibility, since it is funded by the American public, to be responsive to its "patrons". If we say we don't want to see another gallery of state-sponsored photographs of bungholes, I think we should have the right to say so, right?
FWIW, I think the concern is mostly about who is paying for the crap that is displayed more than the judgement of the people who would display such garbage. In the case of pornography, look at it all you like, just don't make it accessible to children.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 01-30-2001).]
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So the reply to Karnak is essentially:
"Not at all! Er, well, yah, BUT..."
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No, the reply to Karnak is what I replied, not what you say I replied.
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Oh..... ok... sorry. So what yer REALLY saying is:
"Not at all! Er, well, yah, BUT..."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Leonid, I personally think that a minority of each party can smear the party in general, but I know many liberals and conservatives that are great folks...I think its time we meet half way on some issues, and not let the talking heads and politicians make a dividing line between the parties.
I try and keep an open mind about everyones special interests, and have even voted for local Dems in the last two elections.
My biggest problem is 'more federal control'...I don't believe Big Brother is a very good authority over my life. If there is going to be more control, I'd rather have it be state control, that way I can move to a state that has no such big brother control and not have to worry about it being a federal issue.
<S> Leonid, hope we get to meet someday!
You know, Rip, I don't expect the country to be just the way I want it to be. And it's not really what I want, either. The only thing I want is respect for my opinions, and my vote. Consider my views, trying to find a middle ground, and I'm happy, because even if it doesn't quite go my way, at least I know that those who aren't of my political persuasion are aware of me, and actively wish to respect my views.
And in turn, I will do everything in my power to consider and respect those who do not hold my opinion.
Mutual respect and consideration is all I'm really shooting for.
<S!>
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 01-31-2001).]
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I think I do a pretty fair job of being clear, without an interpreter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If a person makes a series of statements that are not only stereotypical, but one-dimensional, I think it is fair to clarify the situation. Further, my job relates directly to many of the misconceptions pushed forward by those statements. Schools receive enough criticism for things that are way beyond their control. At the very least I think those comments need to be qualified.
Sheesh, and I used to think Alex Trebek was the only snotty, know-it-all Canadian... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)