Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bj229r on March 26, 2006, 05:28:30 PM
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link (http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=news&referrer=welcome&id=20060326/44261fd0_3ca6_15526200603261868407169)
Some Marines Declining Extra Body Armor
Sunday, March 26, 2006
HUSAYBAH, Iraq - Extra body armor - the lack of which caused a political storm in the United States - has flooded in to Iraq, but many Marines here promptly stuck it in lockers or under bunks. Too heavy and cumbersome, many say.
Marines already carry loads as heavy as 70 pounds when they patrol the dangerous streets in towns and villages in restive Anbar province. The new armor plates, while only about five pounds per set, are not worth carrying for the additional safety they are said to provide, some say.
"We have to climb over walls and go through windows," said Sgt. Justin Shank of Greencastle, Pa. "I understand the more armor, the safer you are. But it makes you slower. People don't understand that this is combat and people are going to die."
Staff Sgt. Thomas Bain of Buffalo, N.Y., shared concerns about the extra pounds.
"Before you know it, they're going to get us injured because we're hauling too much weight and don't have enough mobility to maneuver in a fight from house to house," said Bain, who is assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment. "I think we're starting to go overboard on the armor."
Since the insurgency erupted in Iraq, the Pentagon has been criticized for supplying insufficient armor for Humvees and too few bulletproof vests. In one remarkable incident, soldiers publicly confronted Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld about the problem on live television.
Hometown groups across the United States have since raised money to send extra armor to troops, and the Pentagon, under congressional pressure, launched a program last October to reimburse troops who had purchased armor with their own money.
Soldiers and their parents spent hundreds, sometimes thousand of dollars, on armor until the Pentagon began issuing the new protective gear.
In Bain's platoon of about 35 men, Marines said only three or four wore the plates after commanders distributed them last month and told them that use was optional.
Top military officials, including Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey, acknowledge the concerns over weight and mobility but have urged that the new gear be mandatory.
"That's going to add weight, of course," said Harvey. "You've read where certain soldiers aren't happy about that. But we think it's in their best interest to do this."
Marines have shown a special aversion to the new plates because they tend to patrol on foot, sometimes conducting two patrols each day that last several hours. They feel the extra weight.
In Euphrates River cities from Ramadi and Romanna, lance corporals to captains have complained about the added weight and lack of mobility. But some commanders have refused to listen. In the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, for example, commanders require use of the plates. End of story.
The Marine Corps has said a total of 28,000 sets of the plates, officially called small-arms protective inserts, or side SAPIs, will be in combat zones by April. The Army has said it is hoping to have 230,000 sets of plates in the field this year.
Last year, a study by the Armed Forces Medical Examiner said dozens of Marines killed by wounds to the torso might have survived had the larger plates been in use.
"I'm sure people who ... lost kidneys would have loved to have had them on," said 2nd Lt. William Oren, a native of Southlake, Texas, who wears the plates. "More armor isn't the answer to all our problems. But I'll recommend them because it's more protection."
Some Marines have chosen to wear the plates, particularly those in more vulnerable jobs such as Humvees turret gunners or those who frequently travel on roads plagued by roadside bombs.
But many Marines - particularly those who conduct foot patrols also carrying weapons, extra ammunition, medical equipment, night vision goggles, food and water - say the extra armor is not worth it, especially when the weather becomes unbearably hot.
"When you already have 60, 70 pounds on and you add 10 pounds when you go patrolling through the city or chasing after bad guys, that extra 10 pounds is going to make a difference. You're going to feel it," said Lance Cpl. David Partridge from Bangor, Maine.
Many Marines, however, believe the politics of the issue eventually will make the plates mandatory.
"The reason they issued (the plates), I think, is to make people back home feel better," said Lance Cpl. Philip Tootle of Reidsville, Ga. "I'm not wishing they wouldn't have issued them. I'm just wishing that they wouldn't make them mandatory."
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I'm just glad they at least have a choice now:aok
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Anyone give them a choice to come home?
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Since the insurgency erupted in Iraq, the Pentagon has been criticized for supplying insufficient armor for Humvees and too few bulletproof vests. In one remarkable incident, soldiers publicly confronted Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld about the problem on live television.
geesh is journalism even taught at schools anymore? It was one soldier and he was coached by a reporter prior to going to the event because the press was persona non grata.
But as many (including me) have said this is what happens when you mix politics with combat. The foot soldier get's something he doesn't want and nobody seems to want to listen to him.
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Anyone give them a choice to come home?
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They are volunteers. You do know this....?
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The problem is the highest campaign contribu... err I mean lowest bidder came up with this;
http://www.columbia.edu/~ns189/armour/images/full_suit.jpg
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zorch... I have seen a lot of body armor.... are you saying that there is something out there that will give 100% protection against high powered rifle fire (2600 fps 150 grain projectiles or more) and that will not hinder movement or unduly weigh down a soldier?
or.... after you criticized... was that all you had?
lazs
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That was humor, not criticism... but since if you insist, here's the next generation body armor;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=10620
http://money.cnn.com/services/tickerheadlines/prn/200602240730PR_NEWS_USPR_____NYF023.htm
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"The Left" held a meeting and decided to keep complaining about other stuff, so don't worry about any more opportunity for silly posts.
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pretty good zorch... course it still won't stop that pesky high powered rifle projectile and..... it didn't exist or was even thought of 5 years ago... 2 years ago there was no examples or prototypes and today there is no viable examples but...
lazs
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I'm confused....is body armor good now or bad now.....What would Rush do?
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Originally posted by Stringer
What would Rush do?
He would take another Oxycontin and chill . :)
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When where the last conserted complaints by the "left" about body armour?
What was the situation on the ground in Iraq when there where conserted complaints on body armour?
What is the situation now?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Anyone give them a choice to come home?
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They are volunteers. You do know this....?
Sure they are, they are paid volunteers. And how many are nat'l guardsmen? And how many have been kept longer than their original obligation? And how much less are they paid than Haliburton and Blackwater employees, or various other mercenary soldiers hired to protect corporate interests paid for by us?
And how does their volunteer status change my question? Did anyone ask if they wanted to come home?
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And how many have been kept longer than their original obligation?
As far as I know every person who signs a contract with the military is told about the clause that allows the military to keep them longer than their original obligation. They are told this before they sign the contract. I know I was. I still freely signed mine, and so did everyone who is in the military now.
That clause isnt normally used. Just happens that it is being used now. It's perfectly legal to keep them past their original obligations because they agreed to that condition by signing the contract.
There is also a clause that generally only applies to Marines and Sailors aboard ships that states if your separation date comes and goes while the ship is at sea you get to stay on duty until the ship reaches a port where you can be shipped home. Until that time you get paid time and a half.
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I always thought the complaint was more about the lack of armour on humvee's and such.
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humvees were never designed as armored vehicles, thats why they had no armor, when i was in i was assigned a jeep, it did not even have doors, let alone armor.
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Originally posted by Stringer
I'm confused....is body armor good now or bad now.....What would Rush do?
Rush the really bad band or Rush the really bad political talk guy?
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Originally posted by dread-
And how many have been kept longer than their original obligation?
Presidential Reserve Callup Authority. There is no backdoor draft. Once you sign that piece of paper, you're in for 8 years. You can be called back in to active duty for the duration of that 8, even after the active duty term you signed up for ended. It's all in the contract.
And how does their volunteer status change my question? Did anyone ask if they wanted to come home?
Kind of a stupid question isn't it? You're going to find a very, very small percentage that don't want to come home. Most would want to be with their families. So, does volunteering for duty, but preferring to be home with family, constitute enough motivation for a troop withdrawl? I would hope not.
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Originally posted by lazs2
pretty good zorch... course it still won't stop that pesky high powered rifle projectile and..... it didn't exist or was even thought of 5 years ago... 2 years ago there was no examples or prototypes and today there is no viable examples but...
lazs
Actually an Israeli scientist developed something similiar recently, and it's already moving towards production. Some of the technology has even trickled down to snowboarding. New helmets on the markets are soft beenies, but the compounds in it become intensely rigid when kinetic energy is applied. Combined that with transparent aluminum (posted that awhile back), and you're on your way to rifle resistant body armour.
Unfortunately much of it, including the US liquid treatment solution, are still going to rely on compressability of the body in shock absorbtion. That bullet may not kill you, but it's definately going to ruin your day.
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Originally posted by dread-
Anyone give them a choice to come home?
They had the choice to stay home, be lazy, get fat, puff refer and bad mouth the country BEFORE they volunteered.
Besides, how many people can get up and leave thier job because they'd rather be at home?
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
They had the choice to stay home, be lazy, get fat, puff refer and bad mouth the country BEFORE they volunteered.
Is that what you think of the people that make up our all volunteer army? Prior to enrolling in the armed forces they were unpatriotic, unmotivated, drug taking Americans?
Interesting sentiment coming from a marine, if you were/are one. I've known a few marines and they didn't share your view, Is your statement empirical or do you have some information you can share? I find it hard to believe that even half of the armed forces are reefer puffers....if you had said zoloft or welbutrin takers, that I'd believe. Actually alcohol is a much more common drug than reefer, and significantly cheaper.
Originally posted by x0847Marine
how many people can get up and leave thier job because they'd rather be at home?
They do all the time, they don't get paid for it either, but I'm sure if the members of our armed forces were allowed to "come home" they might make more than they do now. But you knew that didn't you. Who makes up the majority of BlackWater employees?
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Originally posted by bj229r
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Staff Sgt. Thomas Bain of Buffalo, N.Y., shared concerns about the extra pounds.
I know this guy. He was an officer at one of my week long trainings in the winter. That was 3 years ago...? He was leaving for Iraq later that month. Him and the other 3 Marines he brought along were top nouch guys. Definatly put a good impression on me. They taught us fireteam tactics and how to eat a MRE.
Just thought Id share.
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Originally posted by dread-
Is that what you think of the people that make up our all volunteer army? Prior to enrolling in the armed forces they were unpatriotic, unmotivated, drug taking Americans? You really put a spin on this one... read the dam question before you type.
Interesting sentiment coming from a marine, if you were/are one. I've known a few marines and they didn't share your view, Is your statement empirical or do you have some information you can share? I find it hard to believe that even half of the armed forces are reefer puffers....if you had said zoloft or welbutrin takers, that I'd believe. Actually alcohol is a much more common drug than reefer, and significantly cheaper. Have you served or are you just huffing and puffing and playing armchair commando? Still read the question before you type Junior.
They do all the time, they don't get paid for it either, but I'm sure if the members of our armed forces were allowed to "come home" they might make more than they do now. But you knew that didn't you. Who makes up the majority of BlackWater employees?
Were you fed paint chips? What is your point of logic in your questions. They are volunteers. They knew the risk before they signed up. Live with it.
Mac
U.S. Army Ret.
'75 ~ '95.