Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman_SBM on April 29, 2001, 08:33:00 PM
-
Arianna has a point... (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/04/26/drug_war/index.html)
What kind of twisted reasoning or vindictive social agenda could lead to a law that denies financial aid to a student convicted of smoking a joint but not one convicted of rape, murder, arson or armed robbery?
------------------
cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
-
Yup.
Smoking dope is a victimless crime and therefore, where's the crime?
Besides, it's no worse than alcohol.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
-
For anyone who doesn't know, Swoop lives in
Amsterdam. So we know where his sympathies lie, eh mate? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Can't fault you.
That is simply ridiculous sandman.
-
hey - the u.s. govt. says smoking marijuana is a crime and that it is a bad thing - and by god if the government says it then i will snap to attention and wave the flag and salute with patriotic pride.
even if other countries and a host of medical professionals have proven how ridiculous and hipocritical it is to jail people for marijuana when addictive and deadly drugs like tobacco and alcohol are legal - i dont care because i'm a 'murcan by damn! its what the duke would do....it's what george kennedy (from breath assure) would do.....it's what ol' grandad woulda done....<swells with pride> i mean why would my government - which i follow without question - ever do something that wasnt in my best interest?
lets beat and jail as many hippies as possible, lets snatch nonviolent people out of their homes and put them in prison with murderers for as long as we can! and if a state, like california(prop 215) votes to legalize it with restrictions for medical purposes - it is our god-bestowed duty to say screw your pansy states rights! this is america and everyone knows states dont deserve rights, a centralized government is what you signed up for and knows whats good for you!
now i will eat some apple pie and have a cigarette and some jack daniels feeling safe and secure knowing those drug crazed pot smoking maniacs are rotting in prison where they belong. and when i'm done drinkin i'll grab muh gun, get in muh truck and cruise over to wobble's house for some manly drunken gun shootin -- (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by Swoop:
Yup.
Smoking dope is a victimless crime and therefore, where's the crime?
Besides, it's no worse than alcohol.
Alcohol is many times more worse than MJ, any study except those of DEA's prove that. The most recent study said that cannabis is less harmful than aspirin.
------------------
mora
Lentolaivue 34
[This message has been edited by mora (edited 04-30-2001).]
-
Second-hand dope smoke kills!!!!
-
"We already know how African-Americans are unfairly targeted by the criminal justice system -- making up only 13 percent of the country's drug users but 55 percent of those convicted of drug possession and 74 percent of those sent to jail on possession charges."
That is a blatant lie. African-americans comprise 13% of population. It does not mean they comprise the same percentage of drug users.
miko
-
"And why make poor kids pay for the same crime twice, while children of privilege are allowed their "youthful indiscretions" without fear of losing the chance for a college education?"
I am not afraid that Downey Jr. will rob me because he needs money for drugs.
miko
-
If it is greater than 13%, then poverty might have something to do with it miko2d.
But then you believe poor people must be feeble-minded and of low intelligence to be poor in the first place, so they get what they deserve!
-
The situation of legalizing cannabis has been well studied in past researches.
The Mary Jane was legal in 11 states of USA until , if im correct, -82 when the MJ were heavily demonized (and eventually criminalized) with absolutely no locigal reasons.
The studies show, that the legalization of cannabis has NO effects on ANY hard or soft drug (including cannabis) usage statistics. Infact the most recent (The British Journal Of Psychiatry) study showed, that Holland has dramatically lower HARD drug usage AND average cannabis usage rates even that its "de-facto" legalized the USAGE AND LO-QUANTITY SELLING of CANNABIS AND PSILOBY MUSHROOMS.
The cannabis legalization could improve dramatically our anti-hard-drug-selling force and would put the hard-drug user-rates (as the studies show the soft drugs doing only little or no harm to community) near to their lowest minimum (as it cant be ever wiped out).
People should; and many of them have realized, that "harsher penalty" policy has come to its end is not at any means effective, as to its survival, would be necessary. There isnt any sigle study, that shows any progress being made by criminalizing and thus demonizing ALL the drug usage by inviduals, even than that kind of studies are wery well subsided.
If you didnt already know, the US government subsides _only_ studies, that are oriented of studying the NEGATIVE effects of MJ legalization and its usage. Even with that the studies made in the purpose of negative effects founding, has every time found, not negative, but absolutely positive effects in reasonable cannabis usage (not meaning the "i smoke pound of weed every day" types of people).
Cannabis has also very sophisticated medical purposes, as it eliviates Neuropathic Pain (when pain is caused by the neurons itself) almost completely, which BTW is almost impossible to do with any recent synthetic drugs and it stimulates your apetite. The cannabis is clearly rising beside of the Morphin and Amfetamine used in medical purposes (which is pretty big. many of the hard "pain killers" are based on Morphin).
BTW the medical usage of cannabis is illegal almost everywhere, even than your own doctor had prescribed it to your SYMPTOMS (remember, it doesent _heal_ any diseases) and thats sick (basically making the using of your medicine illegal. Thats protected by the constitution, but why should we care about that?)!
This may sound like i was rallying, but im not. Im just sick of all the roadkillting thats going on in political stands. Laws should obey the truth and not the fears of inviduals.
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
But then you believe poor people must be feeble-minded and of low intelligence to be poor in the first place, so they get what they deserve!
If I am only talking about USA, then definitely yes.
My personal experience and detailed statistical studies I've read led me to believe that is the case.
I do believe that inability to find a place in life despite abundant opportunities, tendency to commit crimes or be involved in other kinds of self-destructive or anti-social behavior is closely linked to intelligence. Since intelligence it to a great degree inherited, there is no fault of an idividual for having low intelligence.
That is why I would never use a derogatory term like "feeble-minded". Also "deserved" can hardly be used here since it is hard to imagine how someone could "deserve" a certain set of parents (unless you believe in reincarnation). I would definitely not combine the above two with an exclamation mark.
I would be much obliged if you abstain putting words in my mouth.
If you must quote me, here it is - the current inequality of incomes and crime rates among various ethnic groups in USA other then first-generation immigrants reflect inequalities in their genetically inherited capabilities and to much lesser degree their cultural and socioeconomic differences (also inherited to some extent).
It would be a very strange coincidence if evolution or creator made races/ethnicities different in every single biological/physical aspect but exactly the same in terms of brain complexity. Multiple studies indicate that it is not a case.
The only way to determine intelligence is to give person a test and see the ratio of right answere to wrong - intelligent people making more right choices and cognitively-challenged people making more wrong choices.
Now, if seems obvious that making wrong choices is detrimental to an individual's success in life, unless you live in a socialist country where equality of outcome is insured.
In order to be a college material a person should have IQ around 115 which puts it one standard deviation above average. That means 16 people out of 100 are that capable.
In order to be an executive/scientific material, a person should have IQ score of around 130 points or 2 standard deviations above average. That means 3 our of 100.
Since having a college education or being an executive or qualified professional is highly related to a person's financial success, it is easy to see how a difference in average intelligence affect their outcomes.
For a race with average IQ, 84% are above the borderline retarded level, 16% are capable of attending college and 3% of becoming executives.
For a race with average IQ of 85, 50% are above the borderline retarded level, 3% are capable of attending college and 0.3% of becoming executives.
That is a natural state of things. The issue is what is possible to do to minimize social problems.
Lowering educational standards till everyone can receive a certificate of graduation is not going to help.
Creating social campaigns that intended audience cannot mentally comprehend is not going to help either.
Providing training for people incapable of absorbing the knowlege is not going to make a difference.
Ensuring jobs simple enough for less-capable people would probably help.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-30-2001).]
-
Does anybody remember "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Miko, are you an Alpha?
-
Originally posted by DA98:
Does anybody remember "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Miko, are you an Alpha?
My intelligence as measured by IQ or by my proficiency puts me considerably higher than average. In that respect I have something in common with Aldos Huxley's Alpha's.
I am also pretty sure that intelligence was high on a list of requirements that my parents had for each other, so there was some concious decision resulting in me being smart. Still, I cannot take credit for that. neither am I sure it makes me more happy. So besides being smart, I must also be wise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Not too modest... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I made sure to marry a very smart girl too, no children yet...
My income is also considerably higher then average even though I am a first-generation immigrant and had no money when I came to US.
I had to rely on loans, schoolarships and work in college to pay for my M.S. in Computer Science - all those contingent on my intelligence and hard work. Also very easy to get - provided you make a grade.
I work real hard for my living and I pay taxes out of proportion to my relative income.
In my work environment or among my friends I happen to be of pretty average intelligence, though - that helps to keep me humble. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I do not mind helping the society but a lot of that money is spent based on wishfull thinking rather then scientific knowlege. Laws of sociology only seem more arbitrary then laws of physics - ignoring them will cost us.
My knowlege in biology, math and familiarity with studies on intelligence make me believe that intelligence is mostly inheritable and - in extremely mobile socieaty like US - is the primary attribute of a personal success.
I understand that many things would have been much easier and simpler if all people, or at least all nations/races were equally intelligent. Unfortunately wishfull thinking does not make it so.
Salut!
miko
-
Jesus Miko. You are more in need of a joint than anyone I've ever known.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
-
MrFish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) funny, can I go too <S>
-whwk-
-
Originally posted by Swoop:
Jesus Miko. You are more in need of a joint than anyone I've ever known.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
I dunno if he passes I am open running down the sideline with a bag of cheetos in arms waiting.
------------------
(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-30-2001).]
-
Originally posted by miko2d:
My intelligence as measured by IQ or by my proficiency puts me considerably higher than average. In that respect I have something in common with Aldos Huxley's Alpha's.
I am also pretty sure that intelligence was high on a list of requirements that my parents had for each other, so there was some concious decision resulting in me being smart. Still, I cannot take credit for that. neither am I sure it makes me more happy. So besides being smart, I must also be wise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Not too modest... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I made sure to marry a very smart girl too, no children yet...
My income is also considerably higher then average even though I am a first-generation immigrant and had no money when I came to US.
I had to rely on loans, schoolarships and work in college to pay for my M.S. in Computer Science - all those contingent on my intelligence and hard work. Also very easy to get - provided you make a grade.
I work real hard for my living and I pay taxes out of proportion to my relative income.
In my work environment or among my friends I happen to be of pretty average intelligence, though - that helps to keep me humble. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I do not mind helping the society but a lot of that money is spent based on wishfull thinking rather then scientific knowlege. Laws of sociology only seem more arbitrary then laws of physics - ignoring them will cost us.
My knowlege in biology, math and familiarity with studies on intelligence make me believe that intelligence is mostly inheritable and - in extremely mobile socieaty like US - is the primary attribute of a personal success.
I understand that many things would have been much easier and simpler if all people, or at least all nations/races were equally intelligent. Unfortunately wishfull thinking does not make it so.
Salut!
miko
Interesting stance. Somehow you seem to be relating intelligence, a quality which has yet to have a generally accepted standard of measurement, with race, a concept that is, by its nature, undefinable. You then take the immeasurable with the undefinable and somehow derive "facts". As Darth Vader would say, "impressive!"
- Yoj
-
Originally posted by miko2d:
My intelligence as measured by IQ or by my proficiency puts me considerably higher than
So besides being smart, I must also be wise
My income is also considerably higher then average
gee i have a confession to make too...i am super super smart....and when i am not engaged in being insanely intelligent i am usually being funny, thoughtful and/or dashing.
sometimes i like to mix it up and be dashing, funny, alluring and then polish it off with a little unexpected poutiness - that always gets em swooning
and of course i like to do these things while being extrememly wealthy and admired by my peers. they all look up to me as i am so cheeky and terrific - ahhhhhh to be me - but enough of me talking about myself....why dont you talk about me for a while - you can draw graphs if you want i know its hard for you to express yourself with that inferior intellect
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
"The most recent study said that cannabis is less harmful than aspirin."
Heh..I disagree strongly here.
I've known several regular users of cannabis and they all suffered from bad memory.
OTOH, they also smoked so much, that had it been alcohol, they would probably have been utterly unable to function (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Had two guys drop out of college because the smoked too much..both smart enough to easily pass (but not smart enough to stop smoking).
It might not be physically addictive, but it certainly can be mentally addictive. It still provides some escape from reality.
I happily agree that cannabis is on par with alcohol (if not "safer"..never known anyone stoned to go looking for a fight)...but harmless it aint. (Dunno what the side-effects of regular overuse of aspirin is:P).
I've personally never been a big fan. I can enjoy a drag or two, but only being able to sit down and say "plbbtttthhhhhhhh" for 2 hours and then go raid the fridge never really appealed to me.
Daff
------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
-
It has been a LONG time since our good friend Miko2D has been in college.
I'd say about 9 out or 10 people I meet are college material. And I'm still IN collese, so I should know! Maybe only 1/16 or so are "Ivy-league" material. College classes are simply NOT very difficult.
Finally, I think Miko2D puts too much faith in "IQ". My sister has an IQ of more than 170, yet she's the stupidest person I know. She may be smart, but she has no common sense at all.
By Miko's shandards she should be incredibly rich, yet she makes less than I do at my part-time job. She just turns off most anyone who meets her, and she's her own biggest obstacle to success.
Having good sense and a good personality is VASTLY more important than simply being "smart".
J_A_B
-
Daff, the studies have shown, that cannabis doesent do any permanent damage and the short-term memory loss comes with heavy usage, when the metabolites of cannabinoids dont get enough time to get out of the system and eventually they _impair_ some of your brain functions (they store themselfs in fatcells and in some parts of brain) untill you stop smoking and let the metabolites to burn (takes month or two).
Most of the "known" problems comes when the person is high all the time, as you cant study or learn efficently if you are high. This can be strongly linked to the "drop-outs" of schools, who are chronic potsmokers.
There are many cases, when the invidual has had multiple problems in his life and sometimes smoked pot. Now you can imagine the gossips when he drops out of school: "Thats what the pot does yep" and such types of BS.
The pot doesent harm you if you use it properly (which is very very easy) so you cant blame it for your problems.
Pot doesent come even close to the physical harms made by alcohol. Everybody knows, that the morning after tells you just how bad the dinking is doing to your body.
Occasional drinking wont kill you as you dont live long enough to suffer the PERMANENT damage done by it. There aint no safe alcohol drinks, but there surely is safe joints if we think about the chronic damages. The short term impairments dont mean nothing, since they are all well below the same made by alcohol.
Pot smoke isnt good for your lungs, but there are other ways to use it, like eating, so if youre worried about your lungs, just make some Space-Cookies.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
For Miko: The wealthiness of person isnt by any ways linked to his/hers integellience. People can be very very rich and still be stupid as a monkey (go Bush, go Gore!). It goes just as well otherwise; You being poor doesent mean, that you arent integellient. You can be good in everything, but still not get any situations in your lifetime, that would make you rich using your skills.
So, if you see a poor person walking past of you, you just cant know, that he could count 43252x155325 faster than you with your calculator or he can see all the patterns of the shapes in IQ tests instantously. He just doesent know it, or just doesent know anyplace, that he could use his skills.
The wealty=intelligence is always pointed out by a wealthy persons, as they usually think, that they must be something special when they have had such a good money making opportunities in their life. Most of todays multimillionares have made their money by an accident, like investing 10 years ago in Nokia just for the phuck of it.
Oh and our society supports only few types of skills. The arts/philosophy/musical types of persons get often nothing, no matter how good they are in their things. IQ test is as good as predicting the weather from the frogs. Intelligence is something so widely featured, that it just cant be measured by any single tests.
-
Originally posted by Daff:
I can enjoy a drag or two, but only being able to sit down and say "plbbtttthhhhhhhh" for 2 hours and then go raid the fridge never really appealed to me.
Daff
Heh. Yeah it does have that effect on people doesnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There's more to dope than "pffft.....munchies" ya know. Try doing something....anything ya like, when you're stoned. Even something so simple as making coffee becomes a major military operation. I swear, the guy who came up with 'Time & Motion' studies hadda be a spliff head. And yes you can have too much....just like alcohol. Most people do......which is why it turns into "plbbtttthhhhhhhh".
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Swoop (edited 04-30-2001).]
-
Originally posted by J_A_B:
Finally, I think Miko2D puts too much faith in "IQ"..... Having good sense and a good personality is VASTLY more important than simply being "smart".
J_A_B
No doubt of that. IQ tests all contain strong cultural and eduactional biases. While they do give some information on the relative performance of certain types of activities for members of specific groups, they are notoriously unreliable when generally applied. And those certain activities they do measure don't include common sense or good judgement - things that are awfully important in getting through life.
By the way JAB - nice to see you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Yoj
-
Finally, I think Miko2D puts too much faith in "IQ". My sister has an IQ of more than 170, yet she's the stupidest person I know. She may be smart, but she has no common sense at all.
J_A_B[/B]
J_A_B I think that is kinda funny, I have a 171 IQ yet have not completed college. 1 semester away just to damn lazy to get up and take the last few classes. I do not think IQ weighs heavily on a person as one would assume. We have people who can adjust "street smart" and those that are "book smart" and of course the "common sense smart".
Each has there own values , +'s and -'s with each of course. You also have to look at 1 individual that brags about their IQ, from my experience those that do, either are borderline "as in their tests show they are below that 150 mark but fall a couple short so they improvise and say yeah I have above a 150 IQ" "or those that are smart but can't answer a freakin question to save their life"
Sorry but braggin about one's IQ is childish IMO. Save the bragging for when you toast someone that followed you into a Hammerhead.
------------------
(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]
-
I do believe that inability to find a place in life despite abundant opportunities, tendency to commit crimes or be involved in other kinds of self-destructive or anti-social behavior is closely linked to intelligence.
Let's run with this. Given that a disproportionate number of black people in the US are poor, compared to the caucasian population, let's look at your next comment:
Since intelligence it to a great degree inherited, there is no fault of an idividual for having low intelligence.
The inference from this is that black people are inherently stupid, to be so poor in the first place. Moreover, the black race has lower mental capacity than the white population.
Please clarify your position on this, miko.
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
The inference from this is that black people are inherently stupid, to be so poor in the first place. Moreover, the black race has lower mental capacity than the white population.
Please clarify your position on this, miko.
Gee Dowding - I thought he made that conclusion abundantly clear.
- Yoj
-
Originally posted by mrfish:
.why dont you talk about me for a while - you can draw graphs if you want i know its hard for you to express yourself with that inferior intellect
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I was asked a specific question and I answered to the best of my knowlege.
I must tell you that misquoting someone is equivalent to lying. My statement "So besides being smart, I must also be wise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)" takes a very diferent meaning when you chop off a smile glyph.
miko
-
oy gevalt miko! - attacking a parody now?! you are hard up.
-
Returning to the original topic - sorry but roadkill. Bush or Gore did not get federal aid for school - they paid for it.
If you have to rely on the government to pay for your school ( aka MY DAMN MONEY ) then how can you excpect to get away with breaking the law ?
I agree that all federal crimes should have same effect when considered for the help, but to say that this is a wrong system is BS.
If you want to go to college you are a "grown up" ( note the quotation marks )
In "grown up" world there are actions and their result. You smoke dope - you're breaking the law. If is so fricking important to you - decide on one or the other - dope or school, cause my fricking tax money shouldn't pay for you to smoke dope in dorm.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Gee Dowding - I thought he made that conclusion abundantly clear.
Well... err... yes, but I want his take on it.
His comments are openly racist and have no place here. But that's not necessarily his intention.
-
Originally posted by Yoj:
Interesting stance. Somehow you seem to be relating intelligence, a quality which has yet to have a generally accepted standard of measurement, with race, a concept that is, by its nature, undefinable. You then take the immeasurable with the undefinable and somehow derive "facts".
The fact that you have not bothered to read relevant literature does not mean that there is no knowlege on those subjects. Both race and intelligence have been studied extensively for the last two hundred years.
Intelligence tests are batteries of problems that people must solve. Considerable expertise has be developed in creating objective, consistent and cuture-neutral tests.
Any doctor will know that races differ by their genetic makeup, their physical features (average height, weight), eye and hair color, shape of the facial and other features (nose, lips, eyes, cheekbones, facial and body symmetry, etc.
They also differ by biochemical and biological parameters, so different races have different life expectancy, greatly different suseptability to ilnesses, etc.
With everything so different it would be strange if brain functions were exactly the same.
Yoj: IQ tests all contain strong cultural and eduactional biases
Not true.
J_A_B:
I'd say about 9 out or 10 people I meet are college material.
First, your circle of interaction must be very limited if you can make that assumption - and that would be very natural. If you went to work at a factory or joined the army, you would see more representative sample.
Second, the college standards in US are really low - at least for BS. Most colleges should be really called trade schools. I am interviewing college graduates many are not capable of understanding things that should be prerequisites for entering a college.
My sister has an IQ of more than 170, yet she's the stupidest person I know. She may be smart, but she has no common sense at all. By Miko's shandards she should be incredibly rich, yet she makes less than I do
Intelligence is just an ability to process/create information.
She must be in a certain environment to realise that potential and there are other character traits then intelligence that greatly affect the chance of that happening - good memory, motivation, concentration, persistence, charisma (you get opportunities from people), etc.
There are probably things that she can understand or perform and you would not with any amount of time and effort.
Most important - what kind of education does she have? I know some brilliant people with no common sence that are making millions for themselves and much more for their bosses. Is she looking for a job? Does she know programming/math?
Second. Statistical results cannot be used in determining an outcome of any particular case. Not only does not statistics insist that all smart people are rich, it predicts very accurately how many of the smart people are likely to be poor. Conversely, it predicts how many dumb people are likely to be rich.
Dowding:
Please clarify your position on this, miko.
According to "The Bell Curve : Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Richard J. Herrnstein, Charles Murray,
certain ethnicities have avarage intelligence as much as one standard deviation below the average.
The Bell Curve (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684824299/qid=988746726/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_2/103-9045367-5334258)
So if half of white people are smarter them average (IQ 100), 16% are smart (IQ 115 - college material) and <3% are very smart (IQ 130+), for such ethnicity only 16% would be smarter then average, 3% percent would be smart and only about %0.03 would be very smart. So it would not be very common to see representatives of such ethnicity among professionals and very rare among scientists, executives or top-level specialists. Not impossible - just rare.
It is obvious that members of such etnicity would more likely end up poor or in poverty. It is obvious from such numbers (if you trust them), that in order to help such ethnicity, other methods should be used other then providing access to education because they may not be capable of taking advantage of such opportunities.
Other kinds of opportunities created for them may bring them more good.
If you check the numbers US education and economic systems are biased towards rather then against minorities - a minority member with the same intelligence as a white person has much higher chance to get an education and is paid more for equal job. That is a result of some very controversial but widespread policies like "Affirmative Action".
That of course promotes racism as people resent losing opportunities because of quotas in favor of less qualified candidates. Or they work with representative of an ethnicity that are much less qualified then normal for that position and form negative impression.
Read that book. It is a large and comprehensive study and not difficut to understand.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 05-01-2001).]
-
FDSKI... not really the point concerning Bush and Gore. The point is that neither would have been eligible for federal aid had they sought it. The law is arbitrary... you can receive federal aid if you commit a crime that has a victim. If you smoke pot and get caught, you can't.
Seems disproportionate to me.
-
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
FDSKI... not really the point concerning Bush and Gore. The point is that neither would have been eligible for federal aid had they sought it. The law is arbitrary... you can receive federal aid if you commit a crime that has a victim. If you smoke pot and get caught, you can't.
Seems disproportionate to me.
Fine, ban the federal aid for the felons - voila.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Miko2d - you're making some bold statements there...
Measure of IQ is a measure of effect not a cause. You are using it to justify that some races are better - oh excuse me, smarter - then others. Adolf would have loved that, although your slant of this theory goes quite again that ( in another post you stated that Jews are hated because they are hardworking and "more intelligent then average" ). That statement combined with you saying that you believe that intteligence is something hereditry for me is nothing more then racism.
Education and social life of a child is a biggest factor in the development of the inteligence in a child. To say that IQ is depended on race is something of a kick back to 1950s and segragation.
If what you're saying is indeed true, then we should segregate the schools again because black kids will have degrading influance on white kids, right ?
I strongly recommend you rethink your view on this matter.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Originally posted by fd ski:
Fine, ban the federal aid for the felons - voila.
That would certainly be more consistent. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Originally posted by miko2d:
The fact that you have not bothered to read relevant literature does not mean that there is no knowlege on those subjects. Both race and intelligence have been studied extensively for the last two hundred years.
Simply stating that writings that disagree with your stance are not "the relevant literature" is devoid of any content as an argument. So is the assumption that reading the "relevent literature" will force one to agree with it. True, both race and IQ have been extensively studied. Very few who have made those studies would maintain there is anything conclusive to be gained from the study.
Intelligence tests are batteries of problems that people must solve. Considerable expertise has be developed in creating objective, consistent and cuture-neutral tests.
Considerable effort has been expended on that task. There is no concensus on how effective that effort has been.
Any doctor will know that races differ by their genetic makeup, their physical features (average height, weight), eye and hair color, shape of the facial and other features (nose, lips, eyes, cheekbones, facial and body symmetry, etc. They also differ by biochemical and biological parameters, so different races have different life expectancy, greatly different suseptability to ilnesses, etc.
Absurd! I will only say that "race" in that sense doesn't exist, since there in no consistent way to determine who belongs to what. Races are socially not scientifically
defined.
According to "The Bell Curve : Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Richard J. Herrnstein, Charles Murray....
Yes, I knew "The Bell Curve" would find its way into this. Somehow Miko manages to overlook that mass of literature that thoroughly debunks the methodology, content and conclusion of that book. Of course, that disagrees with his belief so its not "relevent" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Yoj
[This message has been edited by Yoj (edited 05-01-2001).]
-
Originally posted by fd ski:
Miko2d - you're making some bold statements there...
I would love to take credit for that but none of those is my original idea. Of course my primary expertise is not sociology or psychology.
Measure of IQ is a measure of effect not a cause. You are using it to justify that some races are better - oh excuse me, smarter - then others.
I would never use that word "better" because it is a judgement of moral. I am using IQ to argue with real racists that some races are not worse or less moral or lazier then others and difference in behavior is easily explained by difference in mental abilities among other things.
Adolf would have loved that, although your slant of this theory goes quite again that ( in another post you stated that Jews are hated because they are hardworking and "more intelligent then average" ).
If Adolph mentioned that the Earth is round, would you ban astronomy and geography? He thought (like many other racists) that some races are inferior and inherently evil.
That does not mean that all races are equal.
As for jews, considerable numbers of studies indicate that ashkenazi jews are about 1 standard deviation higher on intelligence scale then average.
If you consider 3 standard deviations from average extremely smart, you would have 1,300 out of one million fall into that cathegory or 78,000 out of 60 million - about the population of Germany.
For ashkenasi jews that would be only 2 standard deviations above their average, so 22,800 out of a million would fall into that category. Out of 3 million (number of jews in Germany before WWII) that would comprise 68,400.
Almost as much as out of the rest of the population not counting jewish cultural tradition of learning and mentally-demanding occupations. No wonder Hitler saw jews everywhere in top positions of influence. Simple math would predict that.
Of course it may be more attractive to attribute their success to jewish inherent evilness, greed and conniving, while not giving black a status of humans at all.
BTW, most people of oriental-asian decent have IQ about 3 points higher then average white.
Also, some processes in US society over the last four generations are leading to creation of a segment of population with extremely hight intelligence due to selection, social and geographical mobility.
That statement combined with you saying that you believe that inteligence is something hereditry for me is nothing more then racism.
Experiments were conducted that I could not find flaws in. All other hypothesae (sp?) do not seem hearly as convincing. I have no choice but believe the results. How is that racism?
Education and social life of a child is a biggest factor in the development of the inteligence in a child.
That statement contradict the experiment. IQ at birth or IQ of the parents are much better predictors of a success in life then socioeconomical status at birth.
All things being eqial, education is a plus. Things get complicated because socioeconomical status and education also corellated with intelligence, but simple statistical methods allow you to factor them out and compare valid parameters.
To say that IQ is depended on race is something of a kick back to 1950s and segragation.
HOUSE BILL NO. 246 by the State of Indiana of 1897 tried to set the value of Pi to 3.2 That would have been convenient but unfortunately not true.
If what you're saying is indeed true, then we should segregate the schools again because black kids will have degrading influance on white kids, right?
That is what is and was happening. On average a white parent sending his child to an average school (no special student selection) with more black kids can be sure he/she will be exposed to more antisocial behavior then if sent to a school with fewer black kids. Many people attribute it to black being evil while it is nothing more then less smart people more likely to act in certain ways.
Segregating schools by abilities of students would easily prove that black kids are no worse then white kids of equal intelligence.
I strongly recommend you rethink your view on this matter.
I would love to. Do you have any data?
Since statistics does not work with individual people, I do not see how my views affect anyone - I hire people as a result of personal interviews, not statistics.
I believe that government programs intended to bring representations of minorities in various occupations or wealth distributions to the same percentage they have in general population are contrary to the nature and a doomed to fail. They also waste money and create lot of negative side effects for society - like witch hunts, backlash racism, reverse racism, etc.
Tests requirements are lowered until some groups can score as well as everyone else. Since that is not possible with any tests that reflect intelligence, the tests are oversimplified or abandoned altogether.
Also, colleges are fighting for minority students in order to fill quotes, even though the students are much lower then general requirements for that college. This way we get poor specialists and the rest of the students form negative impressions about minorities.
People far from real economy assume that discrepancy in income/positions is a result of racism, while in my 10 year career I have seen no indication of such.
In fact any minorities and first/second generation immigrants like chinese, peole from India, russians and others are very successfull.
I do not have the book with me, but if I remember correctly it shows that average black student of Harward has grades as good as the bottom 5th percentile of general grades. Out of 20 the [a]average[/a] black student is 20th.
And those are definitely not underprivileged students or the ones with not enough knowlege or any other reasons - they would not make it there otherwise.
It just means that admission procedure for minorities is so relaxed that much less capable students get in then it takes to study there competitively.
BTW, what is that about intelligence determined by education, etc?
In my life I saw plenty of examples of people growing in the same area with the same eduation and family income and when it came to studying no amount of effort or time made them successfull in something a brighter person could do without noticing.
So it must be either random or inherited.
It seems to me it is inherited to a great degree.
Want to hear my opinion why women on average are not as successfull as men in reaching top positions? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Guys, I see you have interest in the subject. Please read the book I mentioned and I would love to discuss specific points. People who wrote it knew what they were doing. I cannot reproduce it in a format of this forum.
miko
-
Originally posted by Yoj:
Simply stating that writings that disagree with your stance are not "the relevant literature" is devoid of any content as an argument. So is the assumption that reading the "relevent literature" will force one to agree with it.[/B]
Not at all. I did not argue a validity of a certain knowlege. I argue your statement that there is no knowlege.
After thousands of people working for two hundred years there may be different standards and different ways to define a race, but ther are certainly some standards and some ways.
Very few who have made those studies would maintain there is anything conclusive to be gained from the study.
Look at bibliography section of any book, then look at bibliography sections of a few hundred books mentioned there. I would not call that "very few".
There is no concensus on how effective that effort has been.
Very few people are going public aftew what was done to those that did (Like Herrnstein and Murray). But you can look at a trade magazines that publish science articles for internal consumption. What you see in popular newspapers is not the current state of knowlege.
Absurd! I will only say that "race" in that sense doesn't exist, since there in no consistent way to determine who belongs to what. Races are socially not scientifically
defined.
Common gene groups. Origins. Physical features. You have trouble telling a black guy from a white one? Look for one with black skin and curly hair who originated from sub-saharan africa 20,000 years ago and who has 6 times higher chance to have hypertension.
I say there is a multitude of very consistent ways to determine who belongs to what.
Yes, I knew "The Bell Curve" would find its way into this. Somehow Miko manages to overlook that mass of literature that thoroughly debunks the methodology, content and conclusion of that book.
Not only did I read those books, I even read the books thoroughly debunking the books that thoroughly debunks the methodology, content and conclusion of that book. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Of course, that disagrees with his belief so its not "relevent" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Why do you use "of course"?
You are assuming that I form a belief first and then read supporting evidence? That would not be rational, would it?
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 05-01-2001).]
-
Yoj RULES!
Uhm... crap... Now that I've stuck my head in the door and blurted that out, I guess I better contribute to this somehow...
Erhm... Nah... Cool thread though.
Bowl awaits...
Chowder...
Latte...
-
Miko, Miko, Miko Call your security partner immediately!
They told us at the institute, that if we ever revealed this to the "OTHERS", that 90% wouldn't believe us and the other 10% would argue that it did not apply (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
OhNooo
smile awhile
-
Originally posted by miko2d:
Common gene groups. Origins. Physical features. You have trouble telling a black guy from a white one? Look for one with black skin and curly hair who originated from sub-saharan africa 20,000 years ago and who has 6 times higher chance to have hypertension.
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 05-01-2001).][/B]
There is way too much ground to cover to address all of your comments - I have neither the time nor the inclination. However, the fact that you can specify a set of characteristics and find people who match them does not mean that there is a scientific basis to that grouping. Obviously you can find representitive "black" and "white" people, point to them and say "look, they're not the same", and you'd be right. The problem with doing this is that it implies that there are a set of specific groups that people fall into. In fact there is not - all "racial" groups blend seemlessly from one to another. There are no definable borders. There are people with very black skin, very white skin and every shade between. There is kinky black hair, straight blond hair and a continuous range of colors and textures from one to the other. For every characteristic you can name there is no specific point at which that characteristic can be said to belong to one group or another.
I never said that there are not visible differences between members of our species. I said there is no scientifically valid method of categorizing who belongs to which. Racial groups are socially defined by taking certain easily identified visual characteristics, finding people who fall in the middle of that range and calling the people who match it a "race". One could just as easily choose height, define a Tall race and a Short race, and then do studies that showed some supposed significant difference between the two. In reality there is only one race - Human - that comes in a wide variety of flavors.
And, yes, I believe that you came to your conclusions and then found literature that supported your bias - though I am willing to believe you were not aware of doing it. Its the only reason I can think of that someone with obvious intelligence can look at the huge amount of data and reach conclusions that are not supported by the vast majority of it.
- Yoj
[This message has been edited by Yoj (edited 05-02-2001).]
-
After reading what Miko stated I have to agree with him. Call me a racists too then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
------------------
(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-02-2001).]
-
Miko, i'm simply speachless. I didn't know that anyone who learned to read and write would event cosider such notions seriously.
What do you say we start with the least inteligent groups and start killing them off ? They have no chance of improvement, by their nature they are a drag on your superior society, they are nothing but a virus in a gene pool ? Think about it.. unemployment would go away... no more welfare .. improvement all around ?
Should we start with Blacks ? Which in your book is the dummest set ? Then what ? Spanics ? Gypsies ? Arabs ?
Your opinions are those of a rasist trying to justify his hate with psudo-research. I'm ashamend to be associated with you in any way. Sorry.
Signed,
fdski
<slav, therefore prabably inherently dumb.. but way... my grandfather was a bastard child of some german guy and a maid... well... she was prabably dumb then... so ... oh well , i'm the dumbdiddly. Note to self - burn all the books and cancel school. Move to the ghetto next week >
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Originally posted by fd ski:
Signed,
fdski
<slav, therefore prabably inherently dumb.. but way... my grandfather was a bastard child of some german guy and a maid... well... she was prabably dumb then... so ... oh well , i'm the dumbdiddly. Note to self - burn all the books and cancel school. Move to the ghetto next week >
Ski from your website and under the link OUR SQUADRON it states this.
We are using a unit name and insignia under which many brave men fought and died. A few of us have had the pleasure of meeting some of these heroes. To dishonor the name of their unit with profanity and hostile behavior in the arenas, chats, or message boards is not acceptable.
Seems you might be breaking the rules of your own squadron's ethical codes there. Just to point it out I know you probably allready realize this. Just goes to show that squadron based ethics are not enforced. Words are just that words, what happens if you so deface the meaning of the 308th? Nothing.
------------------
(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-02-2001).]
-
AG , if you haven't learned what sarcasm is at this age, i'm afraid i can't help you.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
I'm simply astounded that you believe such things miko.
All your arguments hinge on the validity of IQ tests. It is far from conclusive that they in any way assess intelligence. You also disregard any argument relating to the upbringing of children and also their biological history. Lack of good food, good teaching and guidance do not enter the equation in your theory of racial supremacy.
You are the most dangerous kind of racist - one who uses pseudo-scientific research to justify racial supremacy. Research that has been shown to be fundamentally flawed.
I seem to remember you mentioning you were a father. Do you bring your children up with such a view on race? That any black person they meet is statistically likely to be intellectually inferior to them?
'Weise uber alles?'
After reading what Miko stated I have to agree with him. Call me a racists too then.
Racist.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 05-02-2001).]
-
Ski, in turn I was poking at you. At any rate so using vulgarities on this BBS is ok but not on other ones? Explain that please.
Dowd, I agreed with a lot of what Miko was stating. Did I say what I agreed with? Nope I left that rather vague. I have also brought my argument tones down to you as well. See the aircraft and vehicle section post. We are all racists to a certain extent. Might not be towards another race of people. I admit I am a racists, I hate everyone equally, except those I run into on the highway.
------------------
(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-02-2001).]
-
Look, I'm not pursuing this discussion any further. It is already pretty ugly, but I'm pretty sure it could get much, much worse.
And for the sake of civility now, and in future.
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
Look, I'm not pursuing this discussion any further. It is already pretty ugly, but I'm pretty sure it could get much, much worse.
And for the sake of civility now, and in future.
Hmmm! Actually, I thought, considering the nature of the topic, its managed to keep itself remarkably civil. I've noticed that some real "hot button" issues are brought up in these forums. Nothing wrong with that so long as the discussion stays civil. I find some of the ideas personally distasteful, but we live in a world where people have them, and its their right. Who knows, some stances might even be swayed or at least moved as a result of discourse?
- Yoj
-
Who knows, some stances might even be swayed or at least moved as a result of discourse?
You haven't been around the O-club for very long, have you Yoj? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
This forum seems to polarise people's views like nothing else - I'm as guilty of it as anyone.
-
So, Bush can have his "youthful indiscretions" but young people now are screwed permanently if they make the same, or even a more minor mistake?
Way to go on the compassionate conservatism!!!
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
You haven't been around the O-club for very long, have you Yoj? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
This forum seems to polarise people's views like nothing else - I'm as guilty of it as anyone.
You're right - I'm a newbie here. Ah well - one can hope (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Yoj