Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: schizer on March 27, 2006, 11:24:25 PM
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Stumbled upon this video, most amazing airshow crash footage I have ever seen. Can anyone translate what the voiceover is saying?
http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/content/airshowcrash27.wmv
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I'm curious, do they not have the same "no aerobtics over the crowd" rules in Russia?
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this is a horrible event. This film is edited. There is one out there, or was, that showed another angle (the worst and most graphic). Alot of people where hurt on the ground from this crash.
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Did it hit the crowd? The end footage looked like empty field. Crud!
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Its Ukrainian
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i cant tell if the pilot punches out right at the end or whether it is debris. did he get out ok?
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that pilot was a brave man. he didnt bail out, he faught that crash even after the wing hit the ground.
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I saw video footage from that show and it is most sickening thing one could imagine. Picture body parts of little children scattered all over pavement and their parents standing over and crying. …..
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80 or so were killed... Pilots ejected and were OK.
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You can see the ejected crew in the last part of the video. Looks like they didn't eject until after they had hit the trees and scraped the ground.
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If i recall correctly, the crew didn't eject. They were auto-ejected by the plane due to the damage sustained during the first ground hit.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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the true size of the jet becomes very apparent as it hits the trees. a sad event.
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that was one of the worst air show disasters in history. Killed lots of people.
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I have a slow motion video of the crash before aviation360.com took it down from their site. I had never seen it at full speed before and had no idea the aircraft came in that fast. Still very sad even to this day. :(
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News Article on the accident (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2155479.stm)
I did find more videos of the crash but cannot post the links here. Way too graphic for the general audience. I could only watch for a short time before I had to stop the video. Not anything fun to see.
A very sad and tragic event. Im very supprised I never read or heard anthing about this accident.
There is one very clear video of the pilots ejecting and getting out clear of the aircraft. One of them was on the ground pulling his harness off as the crowd was scrambling around him. This man had to feel horrible with all the carnage around him. I cannot even begin to imagine.
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WHy is it that russsian jets seem to fall out of the skys at air shows?
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They may fall out of the sky regularly due to inadequate maintenance or complete lack of maintenance but I hear that their ejection seats are top notch.
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Thanks for the article. From the text:
"The Defence Ministry has begun an inquiry and said it suspected that engine failure was to blame."
From the video, I didn't see any signs of flameout, it looked like a "controlled flight into ground" accident. The pilot executed the maneuver too low and no plane on earth would have had enough power to overcome wing loading and the rate of descent at that point.
Just checked via google and apparently the official cause was listed as entirely due to pilot error.
- SEAGOON
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Voiceover in Ukrainian says that main mistakes were different location of spectators in Zhitomir (their home base) and L'vov. First pilot asked his companion "where are the spectators?!". Second main mistake was that they trained in Zhitomir with much less fuel aboard.
IMHO it was airshow administration's fault - pilots didn't know where spectators will be and had to perform over the crowd. Anyway, pilots were accused and got sentenced :(
I already wrote here that after such an accident (and you didn't see more then 1/10th of the disaster) - they had one obvious solution to the situation :(
A 25 ton fighter literally ploughed into the ground in the middle of the crowd, leaving a deep trench :(
After that accident Russian authorities canceled demonstration flights on a show at Rzhevka near Leningrad.
Again: it was Ukrainian plane, not Russian. Just as that Tu-154 over Black sea that was shot down by Ukrainian SAM. It was an obvious lack of organisation and discipline :(
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Hey, there is nothing wrong with the jet and it's maintenance. :furious They seems to be a lot of Russian jet crash because the pilots push the flight envelop really hard to wow the crowds. Plus they work with extremely tight safety margins.
Look at airshows in USA, the jets have to stay at least 500ft high, not go over 300 kts , and stay reasonably inside the flight envelop limitations. Thus they crash less.
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Rule #7
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hmm.. Does the "Annual Russian Ejector Seat Board" know of this one?
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that's the one i was talking about. really nothing you want to watch though.
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One of the thunderbirds did something similar at Mt Home AFB last year. There was something amis with his altimeter zeroing (set it for the wrong runway altitude or something like that) and he couldn't recover in time. There were no injuries on the ground because of it.
I was in the Air Force when the tragedy in Germany occured (1988) and airshows in the U.S. were completely stopped and re-evaluated. New rules and guidelines were implimented that prohibited maneuvers that put the crowds at risk. This included restricting where the crowd could be, where the planes could maneuver and what maneuvers they could do. The air shows got a little boring until they figured out that launching an F-15 and having it go verticle for 30,000 feet was about as impressive as it got... or having an F-18/F-16 fly by at 80mph barely hanging in the sky.
The thunderbird crash occured with a maneuver intended to parallel the audience in case of a problem. Many airshows set up a "mock runway" for the performers to align to if the real runway is to close to the crowds for safety sake. This is something that doesn't seem to have been adopted with the same zeal in Europe. Maybe someone could correct me on that... but I have seen footage of several shows where people were scattered all over the airport (both sides and ends of the runway) and I always think back to the incident in Germany.
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Originally posted by Mini D
One of the thunderbirds did something similar at Mt Home AFB last year. There was something amis with his altimeter zeroing (set it for the wrong runway altitude or something like that) and he couldn't recover in time. There were no injuries on the ground because of it.
I was in the Air Force when the tragedy in Germany occured (1988) and airshows in the U.S. were completely stopped and re-evaluated. New rules and guidelines were implimented that prohibited maneuvers that put the crowds at risk. This included restricting where the crowd could be, where the planes could maneuver and what maneuvers they could do. The air shows got a little boring until they figured out that launching an F-15 and having it go verticle for 30,000 feet was about as impressive as it got... or having an F-18/F-16 fly by at 80mph barely hanging in the sky.
The thunderbird crash occured with a maneuver intended to parallel the audience in case of a problem. Many airshows set up a "mock runway" for the performers to align to if the real runway is to close to the crowds for safety sake. This is something that doesn't seem to have been adopted with the same zeal in Europe. Maybe someone could correct me on that... but I have seen footage of several shows where people were scattered all over the airport (both sides and ends of the runway) and I always think back to the incident in Germany.
I understand the differences in safety but it just seems that russain jets fall out of the sky all the time at air shows. It's uncanny. I can recall the recent F16 thunderbird (pilot error) an F117 (mait error) and that's about it as far as air shows go. It seems like once a month we were hearing about and Su or Mig falling out of the sky.
and yes the russain "K" series ejection seat is a superior design. I'm not sure if as of yet they have an automatic colision sequence (the us does not) but the envelope for survivability far surpases that of the US Aces series and the British Martin baker systems.
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Didn't they (the commies)arrest Bob hoover for dangerous flying at an airshow?
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When did this happen?
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I dont remember, but it is in his book
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Did any of you watch the military chan that was about the russian a/f. It was almost sad to see things in such disrepair over there. Air strips are falling apart, cracks, grass growing up and down... A shortage in just about anything you can think of. It did give me a greater respect for their planes though. The Mig29 is a monster. There is something about russian jets... Tho they will never come close to being as cool as a Tomcat.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Did any of you watch the military chan that was about the russian a/f. It was almost sad to see things in such disrepair over there. Air strips are falling apart, cracks, grass growing up and down... A shortage in just about anything you can think of. It did give me a greater respect for their planes though. The Mig29 is a monster. There is something about russian jets... Tho they will never come close to being as cool as a Tomcat.
Well, from what I have heard the situation in VVS got much better in last 5 years. They fly now as often as Americans. Nothing like 30 hours a year in early 90s.
Airstrips falling apart, grass etc - it happens, but Soviet planes are supposed to opearte from such airstrips, or even from grass fields. In 1993 when American F-15s visited training center in Lipetsk - they said they refuse to take off from such a dirty airstrip, so they had a Su-27 taking off before them to wipe concrete with exaust. Another problem for Americans was that they had problems with Russian fuel - IIRC they had engine failures on the way back.
Do you know when VVS decided to clean airfields from snow in winter? In 1940! In our climate concrete simply cracks, and we have to live with it. Even Tu-144 SST airliner was able to land on grass field, and did it at least once.
About airshow rules: in Russia on airshows there is at least 500m between the "zone" and public. On Moscow Airshow this distance is always secured by chains of internal corps soldiers. My first airshow in Kubinka, 1992 IIRC - the weather condidtions were so bad that I almost froze and got wet to the last thread in my clothes, clouds were so low that in Msk they covered half of the University building (180m tall on 80m hill), but pilots didn't skip a single maneuver.
In L'vov they didn't even inform pilots of where the public will be :( Amateurs, still trying to pretend they have air force :(
Another thing about Russian aerobatic teams: they fly unmodified combat planes, I mean they may simply attach weapons to hardpoints and take off for combat.
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zomfg the TOMCAT is the bestest aevar!!1 SPLURT!
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Most U.S. air shows use unmodified combat aircraft too. The only real exceptions are the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels, but they actually make up a small percentage of flight demonstrations at airshows.
The routine for every airshow I've been at in a work capacity in the U.S. (used to work with a mobile control tower) was to have familiarization flights with all of the arial demonstration pilots. There were briefings where aproach paths, speed restrictions, altitude restrictions and everything else were discussed. It wasn't a matter of telling the pilots where the people were and asking the pilots to avoid them.
The thing about that video that amazes me is the same thing that happened at Mt. Home: The pilot was way too low to try the maneuver he was performing. In Mt. Home, it was due to a pilot incorrectly setting his altimeter and doing the maneuver properly. The cause of this one seems to be a pilot not fully understanding what he was doing and how much room he'd need to recover. It almost looks unrehersed.
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Originally posted by Mini D
One of the thunderbirds did something similar at Mt Home AFB last year. There was something amis with his altimeter zeroing (set it for the wrong runway altitude or something like that) and he couldn't recover in time. There were no injuries on the ground because of it.
(http://www.georgiajets.org/20M_Mistake/a_Thunderbird_Ejection2.jpg)
Cockpit Video (http://www.georgiajets.org/video/tbirdcrashcockpit.mpg)
Ground view (http://www.georgiajets.org/video/thunderbird_crash_ground_view.wmv)
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Originally posted by Mini D
Most U.S. air shows use unmodified combat aircraft too. The only real exceptions are the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels, but they actually make up a small percentage of flight demonstrations at airshows.
We have only several airshows a year all over the country, with only 4 famous groups performing group aerobatics, and in the Ukraine they had to ferry a single plane across the whole country to show something to public... What they had in L'vov isn't called an "airshow" here. It was a "demonstration flight at a city festival".
Russian Knights fly Su-27, Swifts - MiG-29s, Sky Hussars - Su-25s, Rus' - L-39 Albatros. Only L-39 is an attak/trainer. We don't have almost any private aviation here, laws are even more stupid then in other fields, and DOSAAF (Army, Navy and Air Force assistance society, that trained youth for service) is almost completely destroyed now. Several aged pilots formed another aerobatic team flying DOSAAF L-29s "Dolphin" (I wonder where they found them and how they made them fly again).
It's interesting how Knights appeared. Back in 1947 VVS pilots were afraid of new jet fighters, Yak-15s and MiG-9s, Marshall Eugeniy Savitskiy formed an aerobatics team in Kubinka to show capabilities of Yak-15s. They trained to perform aerobatics in a formation of 5 around leader, what famous pilots of the 30s did. Later they changed many plane types and team pilots, but they still exist... I can't imagine a Marshall, a person at Savitskiy's rank, making a tour around some forgotten airfields to show new planes to pilots in our new times...
Originally posted by Mini D
The routine for every airshow I've been at in a work capacity in the U.S. (used to work with a mobile control tower) was to have familiarization flights with all of the arial demonstration pilots. There were briefings where aproach paths, speed restrictions, altitude restrictions and everything else were discussed. It wasn't a matter of telling the pilots where the people were and asking the pilots to avoid them.
In L'vov they never flew at the airshow location with full fuel load, and pilots were misinformed about flight zone. Ukrainian "justice" hanged everything on pilots, only to save some fat bellybutton with stripes on trousers who was in charge of the preparation.
Originally posted by Mini D
The thing about that video that amazes me is the same thing that happened at Mt. Home: The pilot was way too low to try the maneuver he was performing. In Mt. Home, it was due to a pilot incorrectly setting his altimeter and doing the maneuver properly. The cause of this one seems to be a pilot not fully understanding what he was doing and how much room he'd need to recover. It almost looks unrehersed.
They didn't realise that the plane is too heavy with full fuel load, and hit the tree tops, then - rammed into the crowd... Try to search for other photos of the crash, it was absolutely horrible :( meat grinder :(
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Originally posted by Boroda
IMHO it was airshow administration's fault - pilots didn't know where spectators will be and had to perform over the crowd.
So, the plan was to plough into the ground, but in a "safe" location?
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Originally posted by Boroda
In L'vov they never flew at the airshow location with full fuel load, and pilots were misinformed about flight zone. Ukrainian "justice" hanged everything on pilots, only to save some fat bellybutton with stripes on trousers who was in charge of the preparation.
They didn't realise that the plane is too heavy with full fuel load, and hit the tree tops, then - rammed into the crowd... Try to search for other photos of the crash, it was absolutely horrible :( meat grinder :(
Surely a man with your "intelligence" must know that when a pilot flys a aircraft into the ground during controlled flight it's known as "pilot error"
If the pilot did not "realize" the plane was too heavy for that specific maneuver with a full fuel load, that is known as "flying outside the envelope" which, btw , is also known as "pilot error".
for you to try to pin the the blame on "a fat bellybutton with stripes on his pants"
is, how should I say this, "erroneous"
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Originally posted by Boroda
Another thing about Russian aerobatic teams: they fly unmodified combat planes, I mean they may simply attach weapons to hardpoints and take off for combat.
There's a good show about the Blue Angels running on Military Channel here right now. Found out they actually use some of the oldest F-18s in the fleet. All the nicer upgrades are on combat duty. They do however pull their maintenance crew from the cream of the crop, and have the C-130 Fat Albert with them that can and will go collect spare parts with little to no notice.
btw, happen to know if they produced another Su-37 demonstrator? iirc, the only one crashed at a show. That's definately one of the most agile jets I've ever seen. It must've been amazing to fly it, especially being able to do a 540 backflip.