Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vermillion on January 29, 2001, 10:37:00 AM
-
I was watching a show on Discovery over the weekend, and I heard a statistic that I thought might interest some people.
Out of the 38 total air to air kills in the Gulf War, 33 kills were claimed by F-15 Eagles of various nationalities. Most of these were within the first 3 days.
I didn't realize that F-15's had such a large percentage of the total.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Well, it was primarily the Eagles that got the air superiority tasking, didn't they?
Might just be a factor of being the "designated shooters".
Not that it isn't a great airplane.
-
Wasn't there some Saudi pilot that had a 'double' one day as well?
Not much of an airwar when one side is simply fleeing to Iran with A/C....
Runstangs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
I spoke with a Tomcat pilot shortly after the war about the air taskings. The AWACS and F-15C pairings and their in-country operations over active Iraqi bases gave them the greatest chances at engaging Iraqi fighters. Their sole purpose was to clense the airspace. Other aircraft were left to the escort and BARCAP roles. A great many Navy aircraft (E-2's, F-14's, etc.) were tasked with a fleet defense, effectively taking them away from the action. This F-14 pilot complained about many long boring flights.
The Saudi kills on the Mirage F-1's were as much a political decision as a tactical decision. USAF F-15's, Saudi F-15's and F-14's had all intercepted the two F-1's but the opportunity for the kills was given to the Saudi flight. Almost purely a PR play as the two Mirages had nowhere to go.
Despite this great success, it seems like a very low number considering the 600+ airplanes that Iraq had in its inventory. IMO - The Iraqi pilots that attempted to fight were either extraordinarily brave or incredibly naive to the potential danger.
The Iraqis did score one kill, however. On the opening night of the war a MiG-25 shot down an F/A-18. That was the airplane flown by Cdr. Speicher.
MiG
-
Yep, figured as much on the political kills, Mig.. thks for additional info. <S>
-
Mind you, just because they were political doesn't mean that they had to feed the Mirage's to him extra careful. The Saudi pilot did his job professionally and when told to fire he did, just like our guys would have had they gotten the word to fire.
By saying it was political you were kind of insuating that we had to set the situation up for the Saudi. The situation was no more set up for him than it would have been for our F-15s or F-14s that were in position to shoot the Mirages.
My point is that all three groups were in position and any of them was just as capable of doing what was required.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
-
You need to talk to some of the guys that were up during that incident. "Spoon fed" doesn't begin to cover it.
-
Hehe toss in the Israeli totals from the 80s and it's even more lopsided.
That plane is a meat grinder. Not unbeatable, but unless you design tactics specifically aimed at defeating it (and its supporting systems), you'd be better off staying on the ground.
IMO it was given the lion's share of the AtA duties because the Navy planes were "irreplaceable" in their specialized duties of fleet defense and seaborne attack, while the Eagles were "pure" air superiority planes (a role neither the Hornet nor the Tomcat is "best" at). Wouldn't make much sense to lose a destroyer to some Iraqi Exocet attack because the Tomcats were off suppressing MiG-29s, or lose the mud-moving tonnage of the Hornets in order to have "excess" CAP.
And of course the Iraqi AF never really came out to "play" in numbers either. I was pretty surprised Hussein didn't make an all-out effort to sink a ship (any ship) at some point. Talk about a "high value" public opinion target...
------------------
-
F-15's are mean suckers.
How do they do when fighting F-16's in dogfights, assuming both are loaded for a2a? I'd guess it has more thrust to weight?
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
-
F-15 has amazing thrust, and it can pull enough g's to rip itself apart.
It has amazin thrust. It can even lift the whole FDB squad, INCLUDING Gordo.
-
The f15 is a brute force fighter plane. It uses the exact same engine as the f16, but has 2 of them. My guess is the f16 can turn better, but the f15 has superior thrust to weight and avionics. The f15 is probably superior.
I saw one of them take off at an airshow ... and climb straight up to 20k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That thing is LOUD with the afterburners lit.
If I'm not mistaken the f15 still has a perfect air to air record. (It hasn't been shot down in a dogfight.)
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Hey Toad - are you at liberty to elaborate on that? Even a little?
Sounds like it would be a pretty interesting read.
Sincerely.
-
Nash, sorry, no.
I used to be in an RC-135 unit and I still chat with them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I fly with Guard/Reserve guys that were airborne in fighters when it happened.
But...officially, "no comment".
-
so you had need to know in a security situation or the guys just leaked it to you and you wont leak it further lol. love to see you justify that or have they totaly changed security in the military ? bla bla bla but i cant tell you insinuation without confirmation is known as roadkill
-
p.s. was listening on the open channel when it happened . even that is suposedly classified . get a life toad
-
The Iraqis did score one kill, however. On the opening night of the war a MiG-25 shot down an F/A-18. That was the airplane flown by Cdr. Speicher.
Is Cdr. Speicher the pilot that was just listed as MIA? If so, I read he was shot down by a SAM. Also, on a History Channel show, they claimed no allied air force planes were shot down by the Iraqi aircraft.
BTW.. The F-15 has so much thrust/weight that it can actually beat the Space Shuttle to 50,000 feet.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 01-30-2001).]
-
well from what I understand the F-15's got all the fun because almost every aircraft that was dual-role was assigned to mud moving.
-
towd
I still talk to my squadron mates. The RC community is pretty small. The airplane is VERY capable. Things are exchanged between us in confidence. I also gave my word to the Guard/Reserve fighter guys that I've shared long nightime legs with as well. These stories are not for the general public, for a lot of reasons.
I'm not going to break that trust to justify anything to the most churlish, intolerant boor to ever grace a BBS.
Perhaps you can't understand that; after all, you still can't figure why folks are upset that Clinton lied under oath can you? You never will understand, either; you either have it or you don't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So, here, this is just for you:
It all happened EXACTLY the way you heard it on the world's most reliable news network, CNN.
Feel better? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, remember that little disagreement between the Carter Administration and the Nixon Administration over the deployment of Soviet MiG-23 fighter-bombers in Cuba with nuke capability?
I know all about that one too; I was Mission Commander. I'm not going to tell you about that one either!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-30-2001).]
-
churlish
10 point for using churlish well in a post...
-
Hehe toss in the Israeli totals from the 80s and it's even more lopsided.
IIRC the Israelis used the F-15s as a "mini AWACS" due to its powerful radar, the F-15s vectored the F-16s to the enemy aircraft.
The kill tally was approximately 84-1, the only Israeli loss was an A-4 lost to AAA if memory serves correctly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
ok smart boy i heard it in my capacity as a cic radio operator on the uss virgina os4 during combat duty the people you talk to were wrong. and i am really honestly not at libery to discuss the issue other that to tell you you are full of crap. go try an impress somone who was at home like you .
wasent around for mig 23s in cuba and get this i wont pretend i was. mission commander of what where and for whom and just and little one ,is it classifed ?and if so why are you talkin about it other than to try to impress folks? once again get a life.
p.s. you are a security risk if you arent totaly full of toejam
-
Originally posted by StSanta:
How do they do when fighting F-16's in dogfights, assuming both are loaded for a2a? I'd guess it has more thrust to weight?
AFAIK, F15C will outclimb, outdive and outaccelerate easily the F16, while F16 will outturn (in substained turns) and outroll the F15C.
IMO, F15C instant turn rate if better, it seems it can gain a tremendous AOA easier than F16.
F15C is faster at any altitude (but it seems is has vibration problems at lo level and hi speeds) and its operational celining is much higher.
Both planes can substain 9g turns, but pilot seat disposition in F16 is better suited to make substained hi G turns for a longer time.
-
Yup thats assuming one or both werent vaporized at 15 miles out by mutual AIM-120 launches.
-
Bet I held a much higher security clearance than you ever did. Do you know anything about the RC-135 program? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
These incidents are now public knowledge, whether or not they remain classified by the government.
I haven't said one thing here that confirmed or denied classified information, nor have I released any classified information.
I'll believe the guys who were actually in the air, thanks.
BTW, I was a volunteer in the draft era. In from late '73 to '80. I was out long before the Gulf but I was in while Vietnam was on.
How long were you in?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-31-2001).]
-
You've probably seen the F15 with security car wedged beneath it, here's a new one, we'll give you the report on it once its complete:
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/f15a.jpg)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/f15b.jpg)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/f15c.jpg)
-
yea bud how much higher than top secret is there? please tell me about you super decoder ring also.
rc-135 ?and how would i know about somting that wasent in my relm of duty ,see that is how security works you know what you "need to know" . you seem to enjoy talkin about things you dont know lets stick to the incident i know . i know you are not right there and thus i said so.
tryin to turn it into "i know more bullcrap scuttlebutt than you" is admirable for a windbag but you are still full of crap on the subject i called you on .
and yea the incidents are public knowledge but the details are classified, feel free to continue spewing but know you are busted. it didnt happen the way your buddies freinds uncles cousins barber told you. and the attempt to belittle our allies the soudis blows in my oppinion .what ever else you say about them, they were fightin a war like i was not wachin tv like you.
-
Towd, you really need to just shut up. Just when I think you couldn't be any more ignorant, you post again and prove me wrong.
If you want information on the RC-135, look it up on the web. The plane's existance is not classified. Many of its capabilities are. Toad has been spot on with everything he's posted.
AKDejaVu
-
You don't know of clearances above TS? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hey, believe whatever you want to believe; makes no difference to me.
But ask yourself why the "details" of this clean, superbly executed Saudi shootdown are still classified. After all, just a normal, everyday engagement right? PR has nothing to do with modern warfare.
Not like it's a big secret on how AWACS tracks targets, designates the shooters and does the C&C is it? They've shown AWACS ops from onboard on TV.
Go figure.
Still, you are absolutely right. It happened just like CNN said it did.
Fought your war, did ya? Where were ya in '73, sonny? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I did my service. Nope, didn't go to the Vietnam area until after it was over. US troops were essentially out when I got to my duty squadron.
I don't denigrate anyone's service. But I expect that from you. One just has to consider the source. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)