Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on March 30, 2006, 12:06:29 PM
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Was watching the MILITARY channel last night...There was an episode on about the Airlift Mobility Command, and near the end of the show I heard the Narrator comment that KC-135 would often tow damaged fighters with their boom into gliding distance to a friendly field! can anyone go into more detail about this or point me to some articles? How about pics?
thanks
cav
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I don't know one way or the other, but it sounds outlandish at face value.
Having precisely zero real-time experience with KC-135's, I await a better informed analysis.
Kinda hard to swallow, though.
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Yea I think it sounds crazy too and thats why I posted to see if there is any authenticity to this...I cant see how the boom could possibly be strong enough to tow an un powered 20 ton phantom or thud without snapping
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There was a case of an F4 in Vietnam, and I believe a Panther in Korea that pushed their damaged wingmen to gliding distance when their engines were developing only partial power.
Widewing should know this 1.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
There was a case of an F4 in Vietnam, and I believe a Panther in Korea that pushed their damaged wingmen to gliding distance when their engines were developing only partial power.
Widewing should know this 1.
Wolf
F-86
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0598valor.asp
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NASA tested towing an F-106 behind a C-141.
That was a step to a private launch to orbit.
After a 747 pulled it to 30 or 40K ft the "Eclipse Astroliner" was to be a second stage to get a paylod to 400K ft, then the payload was to have an 'accellerate and climb to orbit' motor.
The Eclipse would then glide to a conventional landing.
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Not only would pulling 20+ tons of effective weight seem unlikely, just imagine the lateral forces. Betcha' million dollahs the thing would snap like a twig in the first strong crosswind gust.
The pushing thing seems closer to possible, considering equivalent weights and such, but I can't picture how. Stick the nose up the tailpipe? What was supposed to be the point of contact? Stilll...seems a little wrong somewhere...
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It would need very precise controlling by both the tower and trailer.
But two shoulder joints would work fine.
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Yea, but I think the question isn't really about towing per se, but specifically about towing with a refueling boom. Another horse altogether in my book.
I've no doubt that heavy lift specialists could tow amazing amounts of weight when properly equipped and rigged.
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Originally posted by Sandman
F-86
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0598valor.asp
that is honestly one of the most amazing stories i have ever heard.
:O
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Oh, its FUEL BOOM. I guess it is possible, but very very very dangerous.
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Could they be talking about a fighter that's got a gas leak sustained from damage, and the tanker is constantly pumping fuel to the fighter while they head for a base?
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I remembered this from a JAG episode where they refer to the actual event that inspired the episode highlight.
Link:
http://www.onscreen-credits.com/JAG/19991005g.html
JAG Comment:
On March 10th, 1967, U.S. Air Force
Captain Robert Pardo used his
F-4 Fantom to push a fellow
American's badly damaged jet from
North Vietnam into friendly territory.
We salute Captain Pardo for his
inspirational courage and ingenuity.
An F4 Phantom in Vietnam:
http://www.historynet.com/vn/blpardospush/
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/1096valor.asp
There are pilots who fly fighters, and there are fighter pilots. Retired Lt. Col. Bob Pardo is one of the latter. When he's not flying corporate jets in Colorado, he's doing aerobatics in single-engine planes with fighter pilot friends.
Of the 132 missions he flew in Vietnam with the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing, the most memorable is that of March 10, 1967, when he and his weapon system officer, Lt. Steve Wayne, went against steel mills near Hanoi. In their flight was Capt. Earl Aman and his "Guy in Back," Lt. Bob Houghton. The Hanoi area was the most heavily defended in the history of air warfare, and on that day enemy ground fire was the heaviest Captain Pardo had seen in his many trips downtown.
Before they reached the target, Captain Aman's F-4 was hit, but he was able to stay with the formation. As they were rolling in on the target, antiaircraft gunners found Aman again. His aircraft began to leak fuel rapidly. Pardo also was hit but was able to continue with the strike, though his F-4, too, was leaking fuel. By the time they were above 20,000 feet on their way out, it was obvious that Aman did not have enough fuel to reach Laos, where he and Houghton could bail out with a reasonable chance of being rescued. If they punched out over North Vietnam, they were almost certain to be captured and either killed or sent to reserved accommodations at the Hanoi Hilton.
Bob Pardo, on the other hand, probably had enough fuel, with careful management, to reach a tanker, leaving Aman and Houghton to an uncertain fate. That was not Pardo's way. "How can you fly off and leave someone you just fought a battle with?" asks Pardo. "The thought never occurred to me." He would stay as long as Aman's fuel lasted, then think of some way to get the two men to safety.
Pardo didn't have long to think about it. While they were still over North Vietnam, Aman flamed out. What to do now? Desperate situations demand desperate measures. Pardo decided to do something that, to his knowledge, had not been done before. He would push Aman's F-4 to Laos. (In 1952, during the Korean War while Pardo was still in high school, fighter ace Robbie Risner had pushed his wingman out of North Korea in an F-86. Pilots then were ordered to refrain from attempting the hazardous act again, and the event, which Risner hardly ever mentioned, faded from memory.)
With delicate touch, Pardo brought the nose of his damaged aircraft into contact with Aman's F-4, now plunging toward the Laotian jungle at 250 knots. He soon found that the pointed nose of an F-4 was not designed for pushing anything more solid than air. After several failed attempts, Bob Pardo came up with a brilliant idea. He told Aman to drop his tailhook. He then maneuvered his windscreen against the tailhook. It worked, but about every thirty seconds Pardo would lose contact because of turbulence, then back off and come in again. It was an extraordinary job of flying. Aman's rate of descent was reduced to 1,500 feet per minute.
Their problems were not over. Pardo's left engine caught fire. He shut it down, then restarted it, and again it caught fire. Never mind that. He would be at zero fuel in 10 minutes anyway. It was time for everyone to hit the silk. Aman and Houghton bailed out at 6,000 feet, followed shortly by Wayne and Pardo. Once on the ground, Aman and Houghton were pursued by the enemy but managed to elude them. All four men were picked up by rescue helicopters--Pardo, who bailed out last, was rescued 45 minutes after the others--and returned to their base at Udorn RTAB, Thailand.
Bob Pardo was an instant hero to the other pilots but not to some higher-echelon accountants, who threatened to bring charges against him for losing an expensive airplane. Good judgment prevailed, and the charges were dropped. Two decades later, he and Steve Wayne each were awarded the Silver Star for what came to be known as Pardo's Push, immortalized in a striking painting by aviation artist Steve Ferguson.
Bob Pardo still is concerned for the well-being of his fellow airmen. When he learned that Earl Aman, now a retired lieutenant colonel, is suffering from Lou Gehrig's disease and had lost his voice and mobility, he founded the Earl Aman Foundation, which has raised enough money to buy Aman a voice synthesizer, a motorized wheelchair, and a computer. The foundation now is working to buy a van for Aman and has expanded its work to include members of the Red River Valley Fighter Pilots Association. In peace or war, says Bob Pardo, "if one of us gets in trouble, everyone else gets together to help."
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Could they be talking about a fighter that's got a gas leak sustained from damage, and the tanker is constantly pumping fuel to the fighter while they head for a base?
That's it. I read about it happening during the Vietnam war. It was not that uncommon for a damaged aircraft leaking fuel to hook up to a tanker and be 'towed' back to a safe landing. It wasn't actually towing the aircraft. Simply topping up the fuel tanks constantly.
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Question: Is the locking mechanism on the fuel boom really strong enough and can the fuel probe really sustain the stress without being pulled out of the A/C? Those things aren't exactly manufactured as trailer hitches are they
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Originally posted by cav58d
Was watching the MILITARY channel last night...There was an episode on about the Airlift Mobility Command, and near the end of the show I heard the Narrator comment that KC-135 would often tow damaged fighters with their boom into gliding distance to a friendly field! can anyone go into more detail about this or point me to some articles? How about pics?
thanks
cav
I remember reading about a 135 towing an F-4E back to Newfoundland
after it's engines started losing power. Apparently the aircraft "broke lock"
a couple times but the boomer was able to rejam the boom back into the
receptacle. This should be around 1982-3, and I believe the aircraft
involved was from Seymour Johnson AFB. It was attempting to deploy to
Europe.
Anyway, happy ending and medals all around for the refueler crew :aok
P.S. The Phantom's refueling receptacle is better placed for this kind of
thing than alot of other aircraft as it sits behind the rear cockpit on
the fuselage.
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Id love to see a pic of Steve Fergusons Painting...Did a google search to no avail though -(
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l33t Googal skillz! (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3227/push.htm)
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3227/push.jpg)
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I think it happened more than once.
The toggles on the receptacle are held in place with 3000 psi hydraulic pressure. There are three "male" toggles on the boom that lock into female receptacles on the fighter and three male toggles on the fighter that lock into three female receptacles on the boom. Idea being if one system is working out of the two, fighter or tanker, it will be enough to transfer fuel.
Still, if you "pull" hard enough it should disconnect. There are examples of boom nozzles being pulled out of the boom and remaining attached to the fighter though. (Usually a problem with nozzle attachment)
I do seem to remember a story about an F-105 being "towed" by a tanker. The F-105 flamed out/engine failure and they went into a slow descent, boom engaged. They towed him just about to his home base IIRC and the 105 driver then punched out in a "safe" area. This would be a combo glide/tow but a "Thud" didn't glide all that well, so there had to be a bunch of "tow" in it too.
It's been a long time though and I don't really remember the details.
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Was just talking to Miguel Badillo, one of my employees who is also a
reservist KC-135 boomer operator. He said as long as the towee has
some power, it can be done. He said he's able to shift an F-16 around
quite easily with the boom.
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Wow...
I wouldn't have believed it, but looks like this stuff might be true. I would not have thought a fuel boom strong enough.
Even with the recorded experiences, and the visuals, I still have a hard time intuiting how that F-4 thing could work, but clearly it did. It still looks like that tailhook would just ride right up the windscreen, if not through it.
Oh, well...Truth is stranger than fiction! Who'da thunk it?
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I was gonna say I would imagine as long as the fighter being towed dosn'te have COMPLETE power loss this wouldn't be entirly impossible. I wouldn't think they'd be able to do this over vast dinstances but just enough to get to an air strip or be able to punch out over a safer area.
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there's an immense amount of pilot skill involved.... and those tanker drivers are superb pilots.. delicate handling of massive aircraft with an intuitive skill at mentaly solving speed, time, distance and placement problems with just a few verbal cues and a spinchter to seat connection that defies credibility.
incredible flying.
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Actually, the tanker's driver's main job is to provide a "stable platform".
He can climb, dive, turn, whatever as long as it is smooth and the rate is predictable or constant.
The tanker autopilot is almost always used unless inop.
Hanging on the boom is a bit tougher than being the tanker. Trust me on this one. Particularly when refueling during a thunderstorm or with the aurora borealis playing havoc with your tendency towards vertigo.