Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mickey1992 on March 30, 2006, 04:04:35 PM
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This sort of crap makes me sick. And some wonder why the common man hates unions.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_re_us/philly_unions_urinals
Philly Plumbers Upset by Waterless Urinals
(Summary)
PHILADELPHIA (AP)- This city's hoped-for bragging rights as home of America's tallest environmentally friendly building could go down the toilet.
In a city where organized labor is a force to be reckoned with, the plumbers union has been raising a stink about a developer's plans to install 116 waterless, no-flush urinals in what will be Philadelphia's biggest skyscraper.
Developer Liberty Property Trust says the urinals would save 1.6 million gallons of water a year at the 57-story Comcast Center, expected to open next year.
But the union put out the word it doesn't like the idea of waterless urinals — fewer pipes mean less work.
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UNION's are a disgusting cancer that infects its host then slowly, and painfuly kills its victims (General Motors etc.....)
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I think there is a definate life-cycle for unions. They serve a purpose in the beginning, but they eventually become useless, or even worse, a parasite on the host.
What a great idea the waterless urinal is. Here is how it works (see the maintainance video)
http://www.waterless.com/video.php
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Hah, you think you have it bad?
I remember when Britain's trains made the transition from being steam powered to being hauled by diesel locomotive. The labour union still insisted that a "fireman" be present in the cab of the diesel loco - but of course there was no job for him to do.
Those were the days when the unions, with some input from the Labour Government, pretty much ran the country.
Margaret Thatcher changed all that. :aok
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All one needs to do is see the issues our French friends are having in France to see the "benefits" of a Union.
Life revolves around the employee, not the bigger picture. Which is too bad.
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So now we have to make sure to design in enough work for all the trades when we plan on building new structures? Yup Unions are a great idea about 100 years ago..no purpose for them nowdays.
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See Rule #5, #4
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It's easy to think unions are useless and outdated and serve no purpose in the modern world. Not surprising when you see some of the dumb things they occasionally do.
But sometimes you see the value of a union. Right now I could do with one. You see I was suspended from my job this week for making a mistake. One mistake. Not the last of a long list of mistakes but the first. To say I'm shocked is an understatement. This from a company (American) who says it wants:· To rely on one another, to treat each other well and to put the development and motivation of our people at the top of our priority lists
On Monday I meet my supervisor to discuss the issue. I've never had a problem like this in my entire working life. I suspect the hand of a certain individual who has made clear their dislike of me from the beginning and who was just waiting for a mistake.
I'll tell you something, if it was a unionised company this would not be happening. The reason unions were were formed in the first place was because of situations like this. So next time you slag off the unions think of how you would handle a situation like this without any support. I have to now. Unions have their uses.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
It's easy to think unions are useless and outdated and serve no purpose in the modern world. Not surprising when you see some of the dumb things they occasionally do.
But sometimes you see the value of a union. Right now I could do with one. You see I was suspended from my job this week for making a mistake. One mistake. Not the last of a long list of mistakes but the first. To say I'm shocked is an understatement. This from a company (American) who says it wants:
On Monday I meet my supervisor to discuss the issue. I've never had a problem like this in my entire working life. I suspect the hand of a certain individual who has made clear their dislike of me from the beginning and who was just waiting for a mistake.
I'll tell you something, if it was a unionised company this would not be happening. The reason unions were were formed in the first place was because of situations like this. So next time you slag off the unions think of how you would handle a situation like this without any support. I have to now. Unions have their uses.
Thats great to say, but what did you do?
Without that info we have no idea if they are justified or not.
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He shot his boss.
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Ok, without going into details simply put: I accidently marked the first part from a lot with the coding for the previous lot. It was discovered at the inspection end of the line quite properly as that is their job. But in fact I would have realised it had happened once I reached the end of the current lot anyway once the figures didn't add up. But it was found and pointed out to me before I finished. I held my hands up, made no excuses and tried to figure out how it happened. This is medical equipment related so errors are taken seriously particularly when the FDA are on the prowl. However similar or more serious errors have happened before (not to me) without anyone being disciplined or suspended.
I believe a certain individual who has a quality function told my supervisor they wanted me pulled off the line or else! Leaving him no choice. Quality in there act more like fascist police than in any place I worked before. You actually have to be careful what you say around them. Even the supervisor is scared of them. Little people with power. It's always the same. I never clashed with any of them but I was singled out in a most subtle manner. Initially I thought they treated everyone like that until colleagues pointed out that they seemed to have it in for me and to watch my back. Well now they got their chance.
Why? I don't know.
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SirLoin ,
Where do you work at (aka. sleep and smoke weed), Oshawa Car or Truck?
I will say that the CAW is better than thier UAW "bro's," but that's like saying cow sht. smells better than horse sht.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
This sort of crap makes me sick. And some wonder why the common man hates unions.
I wrote this a few years ago on this BBS regarding Unions:
They care only for themselve$ these days and have political agendas.
OTOH, I've been in a situation where a supervisor would have had 11 of us fired if there had not been a union to step in and chill this dude. He was out of line (and an ex-Drill sergeant at that)
Ya gotta sleep with the devil if you want alittle piece of heaven.
Oh, and I was IAW Union for 10, SPEEA (Engineers Union) for 4 years, and now I've been salary for 4 years. I've increased my pay by 1/3 since going salary (you get pay raises for performance)...where the union you're limited to contract. Best thing I ever did financially was go salary.
Update. Its now been 7 years that I've been salary, and my pay has double since leaving the union. Unions restrict the amount of money you have the potential to make.
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Guy I know in the Plumbers.. broke a hip. (off the job) Outta work almost 2 years. Back on the job now with a new hip, didn't lose his job, senority or pay.
Without that union he'd have lost his house, destroyed his credit and be looking at a lifetimes worth of medical bills.
Yah. Unions suck.
Like gravity sucks.
Turn corporate intrests loose without a Union muzzel.. be a nasty situation (like cpxxx's) for a lot of us. I wonder how many of our Fathers and Grandfathers would have fared without union protection?
Cpxxx.. hope your situtaion turns around. Sorry news, sorry to hear it. Hang in there buddy... hope you find a better job soon.
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Hang, there's too much **** going on to judge a situation like that in those 4 or 5 lines.
Like for instance, did he break his hip while on the job?
I believe in worker's comp, but it definately shouldn't be full pay. In my company, anyone who gets really hurt will be transferred to some less strenuous job, but they will still earn their keep. That is unless the accident and injury happened because of full incompetance of the owner / boss.
If your plumber friend broke his hip outside of the job, I'd tell him he'd have his same job and status waiting for when he got back, but I wouldn't pay him a cent. Of course I'd offer a lesser job.
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See Rule #4, #5
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Ah the rant reminded me of Airhead. All hail the Unions....pffft.
And this guy didnt have medical insurance?
Senority is for the birds. I've seen more issues at my one union post where senority affected production. So much for the best person for the job, its whose entitled to milk the clock best, etc etc.
But please, let's hear all these Union tales of how nothing they do is wrong. Dazzle us, Hang. Really.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Guy I know in the Plumbers.. broke a hip. (off the job) Outta work almost 2 years. Back on the job now with a new hip, didn't lose his job, senority or pay.
Without that union he'd have lost his house, destroyed his credit and be looking at a lifetimes worth of medical bills.
Yah. Unions suck.
Like gravity sucks.
Turn corporate intrests loose without a Union muzzel.. be a nasty situation (like cpxxx's) for a lot of us. I wonder how many of our Fathers and Grandfathers would have fared without union protection?
Cpxxx.. hope your situtaion turns around. Sorry news, sorry to hear it. Hang in there buddy... hope you find a better job soon.
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LOL.. c'mon Lepaul, what personal screwing has the union handed you, lately? I'm showing just one example where a good guy doing honest labor in an american trade union got a fair shake.
Insurance? THATS what the union contracts are for.. insurance. benefits. protection from being screwed outta yer job by a power hungry lil front office weazel who never got his hands dirty on a real job. Not everybody that works for a living want's to move to the office and become a stuffed shirt like Rip, and not every union member is an illiterate twit that can't tie his own shoes without a freakin apprentice.
The guy had 27 years in; what... yer bent because he was covered?
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Suspended for a single mistake? What kind of crazy place does he work at, B0ston Scientific?
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See Rule #4 (one more like that and you will lose your posting privs)
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Down with the Unions !
VIVA EL CORPORATE !
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Unions are a good thing when they work.. like everything else.
Without unions we would not have evolved to were we are, but some of them have grown too large and have spanned over too many fields.
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China is a good example of how harmful unions are to business. There are no unions in china, therefore, few labor laws. there fore, the kind and generous heart of big business grants its workers unlimited overtime at 33 cents per hour, straight time for all, average work week 75 hours. No age limits, imagine your children pulling these kinds of hours making tennis shoes. I can see why people think unions are bad, but big business will strangle the life out of each and every working family for the almighty dollar if there is nobody there to fight them.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
China is a good example of how harmful unions are to business. There are no unions in china, therefore, few labor laws. there fore, the kind and generous heart of big business grants its workers unlimited overtime at 33 cents per hour, straight time for all, average work week 75 hours. No age limits, imagine your children pulling these kinds of hours making tennis shoes. I can see why people think unions are bad, but big business will strangle the life out of each and every working family for the almighty dollar if there is nobody there to fight them.
Exactly...Unions in the private sector definitely have their purpose(and they are changing with the times)
Public service unions paid by your tax dollars are a different matter.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Ok, without going into details simply put: I accidently marked the first part from a lot with the coding for the previous lot. It was discovered at the inspection end of the line quite properly as that is their job. But in fact I would have realised it had happened once I reached the end of the current lot anyway once the figures didn't add up. But it was found and pointed out to me before I finished. I held my hands up, made no excuses and tried to figure out how it happened. This is medical equipment related so errors are taken seriously particularly when the FDA are on the prowl. However similar or more serious errors have happened before (not to me) without anyone being disciplined or suspended.
I believe a certain individual who has a quality function told my supervisor they wanted me pulled off the line or else! Leaving him no choice. Quality in there act more like fascist police than in any place I worked before. You actually have to be careful what you say around them. Even the supervisor is scared of them. Little people with power. It's always the same. I never clashed with any of them but I was singled out in a most subtle manner. Initially I thought they treated everyone like that until colleagues pointed out that they seemed to have it in for me and to watch my back. Well now they got their chance.
Why? I don't know.
Make sure every move that is made against you is documented in writing. DO NOT EVER IMPLY you are going to sue them or take any actions, you simply need the progressive discipline that is being taken against you documented for your records. If the documented violations are inacurate, file a complaint withe the HR department. (dont be naive, HR is pure company gestapo. They are just there to protect the company from lawsuits). Just say that your write-up, or whatever they call it there is, in your humble opinion, inacurate. Always act timid and humble. Once you get an accurate written description of your offense, check and see if this is a common error and others make these mistakes often, or even occasionally. You want to find someone before or after who has made a similar mistake and has no action taken against them. If your company is stonewalling you with the written stuff, file a complaint with HR, MAKE SURE YOU KEEP SIGNED COPIES OF YOUR COMPLAINTS. Say something like, "comapny is taking disciplinary action against Mr cpxxx, and is not providing mr cpxxx with any written documentaion." You, of course are completely confused with what is going on. You simlpy made 1 mistake, as all humans do. Once you get your written documentation, its time once again to go to HR with a complaint. A union shop would call this a grievance. NEVER ACCUSE ANY supervisor of haivng it in for you. Your whole mission here is to quietly step towards legal action, which is what HR is there to prevent. You want to HUMBLY accuse the company of wrongfully disciplining you for whatever it is they said you done, as others have done this or very similar to this and nothing has happened to them. It doesnt matter if you havent found anybody else who has made this mistake, you are sure there has been . If not the same mistake, then one similar or even more severe, If HR is stonewalling or stalling and as a LAST RESORT!! You can go to the labor baord and file a complaint there. Important things to remeber. Its scary, but you have to keep your cool. Losing your job is better than living a life in fear of abusive supervisors. BE HUMBLE AND CONFUSED. "why is this happening to me" Shed some tears. Keep in mind, HR will never show fear, if you challenge them outright, they will stay stone faced to the bitter end, it is best to quietly take steps towards legal action. Getting a lawsuit to the jury will mean the HR manager is crrapping his drawers. Winning one will mean the HR managers job. Good luck. BTW if you hjave to go to the labor board, at that point is is best to retain a cheap labor attourney to help you with the wording.
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Sorry, but your only protection against big business is yourself. What I mean is your skill and education. I have a certain skill set that I have achieved through education and experience. It commands a certain $$ on the open market. The only people that need Unions are the people that shovel sht for a living.
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Originally posted by Choocha
The only people that need Unions are the people that shovel sht for a living.
Prove that please.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Prove that please.
Let's go the other direction. http://www.ibew.org/
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I know a couple of general contractors in Florida that used to be from New York and Michigan.
These guys both hate unions with a passion, but they both love it when they can hire a guy who was a former union carpenter from up north.
I ask why if unions are so bad? "well because they get good training up there, a Florida carpenter with 15 years experience may have been doing nothing but laying roof deck all that time, knows nothing else".
So I guess its where your bread is buttered.
shamus
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When I was in Detroit I went outa my why to make sure that anybody working on my house was not affil. with any Union. I hired a truckload of Mexican illegals to roof my house once. They worked hard, didn't complain and finished the job for 1/2 price.
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My biggest problem with the unions when I was union was their politics and greed.
They would pummel you constantly (like a Born Again Christian trying to convert) with literature of who you should vote for in any upcoming elections at every level of Government.
Starting salary for a new hire secretary with no experience (in todays PC world called "OA" for Office Assistant") was what a MAXED OUT GRADE LEVEL MACHINIST MADE! In 1996, this was something like $70,000.00....for a damn secretary! :huh The highest paid Journeyman machinist with 30 years senority made $68k at that time!~
Of course, the union was good for people who worked the system, upped until our company allowed the union to go to a closed shop. Then the union stopped working for the common man when a grievance was filed...saw it happen over and over and over again with co-workers. It was sort of good in the way that the folks who "worked the system" no long could, but at the same time, when a valid grievance was filed, the union didn't give a crap...they got your money no matter how hard they worked for you. :mad:
Sure, they negotiated some really LOUSY contracts, like in 1989 when we went out on strike for 69 days, and settled for the same contract that the Company offered us on day 1. :mad:
In 1995 we struck for 45 days, and I think we got our medical co-pay for office visits down from $12/a visit to $10/ a visit. :mad:
Unions are like corporations, they're in it for themselves. If you think they represent you, then you're addicted to the Kool Aid.
P.S. THe union negotiated really high wages, like 25% more than our peers made outside of our company, eventually costing the union 25,000 members due to being overpriced. The company took the work elsewhere. Typical union greed. You see, when you make more, they get more $$ in union dues. I ALWAYS felt I was overpaid for the jobs I did as a union worker (and I knew I was overpaid by speaking to peers in the same business)
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There was a strike at a GM facility -Pontiac East. The UAW sheep walked out suddenly. Most of them had no idea why they were walking out but they acted like 3rd graders sent home from school...yelling and wuping it up. They struck for a few weeks and it was over. After returning, most still didn't know what the whole thing was about. Some time later the Detroit Free Press uncovered that the Head of the Union Local had a brother that was hired by GM as an executive (very high pay) around the time the strike ended.
classic
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Originally posted by Choocha
When I was in Detroit I went outa my why to make sure that anybody working on my house was not affil. with any Union. I hired a truckload of Mexican illegals to roof my house once. They worked hard, didn't complain and finished the job for 1/2 price.
WTG!! Lowereing the standards of all working families a bit more.:aok
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Ok, without going into details simply put: I accidently marked the first part from a lot with the coding for the previous lot. It was discovered at the inspection end of the line quite properly as that is their job. But in fact I would have realised it had happened once I reached the end of the current lot anyway once the figures didn't add up. But it was found and pointed out to me before I finished. I held my hands up, made no excuses and tried to figure out how it happened. This is medical equipment related so errors are taken seriously particularly when the FDA are on the prowl. However similar or more serious errors have happened before (not to me) without anyone being disciplined or suspended.
I believe a certain individual who has a quality function told my supervisor they wanted me pulled off the line or else! Leaving him no choice. Quality in there act more like fascist police than in any place I worked before. You actually have to be careful what you say around them. Even the supervisor is scared of them. Little people with power. It's always the same. I never clashed with any of them but I was singled out in a most subtle manner. Initially I thought they treated everyone like that until colleagues pointed out that they seemed to have it in for me and to watch my back. Well now they got their chance.
Why? I don't know.
Does the company you work for start with a "G" by chance?
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Hang, for every "good union"...and there are some out there...I can point out zillions of examples where they are simply greedy. I also dont agree with them spending union members money endorsing a political candidate and pressuring their membership to vote that way. The people they represent are varied, so to claim to know each and every members political outlook is stupid and narrow minded. Any shop that *requires union membership* indicates to me they are bent on anyone having a conflicting opinion.
While at UPS, I got tired of the Teamster clones who knew only what the union boys insisted they know. Like herded sheep. If you tried to talk to these pro-union folks, all they could do was spout off the predictable pro-union mantra over and over.
I got injured on the job and my loving Teamsters dropped the ball. I was out of work for a month and they did nothing. But rest assured, the dues were deducted. So call me biased or what have you....but the notion that unions are all about the members is hogwash. Unions are about the union leaders and their political ambitions.
I think the bad unions, like the UAW and others we see that gasp at paying a $9 a month medical co-pay are the ones making whatever good ones look bad. To me, it looks like protectionism for overpaid and over-benefitted positions. Refusing to install toliets that save water? C'mon, if this doesnt make one go "ya know, we've got a problem", then perhaps the close to$3000 extra a GM car costs due to Union member benefits will.
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Oh yeah, unions are a good thing,..sure. Tell my Father that after the unions burned his business to the ground after the reps were run out of the store by the employees.
Tell my Grandfather that after his home was burned down to the ground (lost my Grandma in that one) after unions reps were run out of his place of business by the employees.
Whenever I have any work done, which is coming out of my pocket, I ask if they are union and keep asking until I find someone who isn't. Unions can stuff it.
Now you know why I detest them. There is not a bloody thing anyone can say which will make unions appropriate from where I sit.
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What kind of union burns down businesses skuzz?
I've never heard of any. Sounds more like mafia than any union I ever seen :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
What kind of union burns down businesses skuzz?
I've never heard of any. Sounds more like mafia than any union I ever seen :D
Corrupt, arrogant ones (most of them from what I can tell). I really do not give a rats poop about the unions, nor anyone else's opinion about them. They can all drop off a cliff and I will not blink an eye over it.
They are a plague on humanity and only there out of greed and some cheesy notion of power. Not any better than the terrorists who took out the towers.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
What kind of union burns down businesses skuzz?
I've never heard of any. Sounds more like mafia than any union I ever seen :D
Don't know about today but the mafia ran the longshoreman and teamsters ubions.
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I'm not a member.. never have been. As managment, they sat squarely in my way when I had a problem that needed solving. Yup, I'd have to agree that for the most part a modern unions protections are far outweighed by the millstone they affix to any progress by small to medium businesses, and the actual transitory protection they may provide to a modern worker.
In a cost-benefit analisis in a modern workplace, most workers can do better with private insurance and supplentals like aflac.
But, sometimes they work. The best and still farthest-reaching effect they have is that they etablish a wage and benifit 'standard' that non-union shops generally stay with to keep union organizers out.
Now, with corporate america on a head-hunt for cheap labor and the AFL/CIO rubber stamping the guest worker program... man if that ain't a scary indictment of corrupt unions, corrupt corporations and corrupt politicians all rump humping the american middle class outta jobs, then I don't know WHAT is.
Bottom lines.. I don't wanna see the American Working Class.. the guys that actually BUILD stuff, manufacturing; in what little is left of real American Job Sector sold out to big business intrests.
So, no.. I ain't ready to toss unions aside and let corporate america create slum cities around their crummy job handouts. Are you?
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I am a member of NHO.. The english name for it is "Confederation of Norwegian Enterprise"
Perhaps more the oposite of a union, but still a union..kinda. Make sense of it if you can :D
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I can't remember where I read this but Major unions spent 70% of their earnings (the dollar figure as up there in the hundreds of millions) on, care to guess:
A. Salleries
B. Workers Pensions
C. None of the above
If you chose C you where correct.
They spent hundreds of millions of dollars on POLITICAL CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS
In my minds eye the unions are using hard earned dollars of the working man to help elect political leaders that suposedly help out the unions even when said members don't support said political leader.
It's all about power base.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
So, no.. I ain't ready to toss unions aside and let corporate america create slum cities around their crummy job handouts. Are you?
I, for one, have never been out of work, have always had decent benefits and have been quite happy with my work over the last 35+ years. I see no benefit to unions whatsoever.
You are asking a loaded question. Loaded to presume all corporations are evil. Not all are. Just don't work for the ones that are. It has worked for me.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Ok, without going into details simply put: I accidently marked the first part from a lot with the coding for the previous lot. It was discovered at the inspection end of the line quite properly as that is their job. But in fact I would have realised it had happened once I reached the end of the current lot anyway once the figures didn't add up. But it was found and pointed out to me before I finished. I held my hands up, made no excuses and tried to figure out how it happened. This is medical equipment related so errors are taken seriously particularly when the FDA are on the prowl. However similar or more serious errors have happened before (not to me) without anyone being disciplined or suspended.
I believe a certain individual who has a quality function told my supervisor they wanted me pulled off the line or else! Leaving him no choice. Quality in there act more like fascist police than in any place I worked before. You actually have to be careful what you say around them. Even the supervisor is scared of them. Little people with power. It's always the same. I never clashed with any of them but I was singled out in a most subtle manner. Initially I thought they treated everyone like that until colleagues pointed out that they seemed to have it in for me and to watch my back. Well now they got their chance.
Why? I don't know.
That really sucks.
I run the QA department where I work. One of the 1st things I tell my inspectors is that their job is to be a part of the solution, not just to find errors. If they go on a power trip it ruins the morale of the entire company. They also need to be diplomatic. Diplomacy is the art of telling someone his daughter is ugly without pissing him off.
Sounds like they need to suspend the process controll guy for designing a system that allows you to make an error. Then they can suspend the QC for not finding the root cause of the problem. Then they can suspend the President of the company for poor leadership....
you need a new job.
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Skuzzy.. I don't disagree. Just take into account that your intelligence and your job skill set are not the kinda working skill or brainpower a plumber or assembly line worker brings to the table. Because they ain't as bright doesn't mean they ain't as deserving of a fair wage for their work.
Unions may be a disease.. but the cure could very well be worse for the american work force.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Oh yeah, unions are a good thing,..sure. Tell my Father that after the unions burned his business to the ground after the reps were run out of the store by the employees.
Tell my Grandfather that after his home was burned down to the ground (lost my Grandma in that one) after unions reps were run out of his place of business by the employees.
Whenever I have any work done, which is coming out of my pocket, I ask if they are union and keep asking until I find someone who isn't. Unions can stuff it.
Now you know why I detest them. There is not a bloody thing anyone can say which will make unions appropriate from where I sit.
Wow, its a wonder anybody would allow themselves to be represented by these goons. Are you sure this wasnt organized crime?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
That really sucks.
I run the QA department where I work. One of the 1st things I tell my inspectors is that their job is to be a part of the solution, not just to find errors. If they go on a power trip it ruins the morale of the entire company. They also need to be diplomatic. Diplomacy is the art of telling someone his daughter is ugly without pissing him off.
Sounds like they need to suspend the process controll guy for designing a system that allows you to make an error. Then they can suspend the QC for not finding the root cause of the problem. Then they can suspend the President of the company for poor leadership....
you need a new job.
Midnight.. he's already been canned. In a country that ain't exactly booming with his kind of job skill requirements. Out on his ass, no recourse.
And that sucks.
Hope he makes it over here.. maybe he'll find a sponsor.
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Skuzzy,
Working for GM for 10 yrs makes me understand you're post very well. We were always threatned by them. We had our cars keyed and tires slashed frequently. My job often dealt with competative issues so we were often targets of thier thugery.
Unlike most saliered workers I wan't scared of them. If you key my car, I'm going to beat your ass. My friend was stabbed in the back with a screwdriver, and the UAW fought to have this guy return to work instead of going to jail. Guess what, after a year of thearpy, he returned to work and my friend had to face that humiliation. I would have taken care of it the old fasion way.
Henry Ford used to hire goones and club them if they got outa line. I can't say I blame him.
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Anyone that works deserves a *fair* wage. Now, define "fair".
I know people who are intelligent, but just flat lazy. They joined unions so they could get outrageous pay for minimal work. One of the guys makes more than I do, and he is a floor sweeper. His actual work time is 5 hours a day. The rest is breaks and lunch. 3 hours worth.
Sorry Hang, but all I see of unions are waste, arrogance, corruption, and greed.
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Hey, Skuz .... lemmee know if that floor sweeper job opens up. Things here are lookin' a bit shakey. :D
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Wow, its a wonder anybody would allow themselves to be represented by these goons. Are you sure this wasnt organized crime?
Absolutely sure. The union rep won a city council chair a couple of years later.
That is how they got businesses to go union. They threatened the owners and employees. Everyone on the block of my Dad's business gave in out of fear. They burned my Dad's place down and let everyone else know if they ever thought about trying to get out of being union, the same would happen to them.
The police were useless. Corruption ran rampant in those days, and maybe still does.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Hey, Skuz .... lemmee know if that floor sweeper job opens up. Things here are lookin' a bit shakey. :D
It will never open up. He is union, and cannot be fired as long as he shows up everyday.
He laughs all the way to the bank about it. Bastiage.
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skuzzy,
read my post four posts back..
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It will never open up. He is union, and cannot be fired as long as he shows up everyday.
He laughs all the way to the bank about it. Bastiage.
Well ... he's not immortal, right? :D
Hey, you guys taking interns? *nudge nudge* :cool:
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I, for one, have never been out of work, have always had decent benefits and have been quite happy with my work over the last 35+ years. I see no benefit to unions whatsoever.
You are asking a loaded question. Loaded to presume all corporations are evil. Not all are. Just don't work for the ones that are. It has worked for me.
And you can thank the Unions for those decent benifits. Find one country that does not have or allow unions that provides its workers with benifits. Unions raise the living standards for everybody in this country. The only way to avoid organized labor is by gun. The slave. Your good jobs and decent benifits are a product of a society born out of a war on companies by the Unions. You dont really believe the companies wouldve cleaned up thier sweat shops if somebody dint make them do you? Bad mouth the unions all you want, just be aware that health insurance was unheard of until the unions fought and won this from the company. Now its standard for everybody. 8 hour work weeks? gimme a break. 12 hours 6 days a week until the the unions forced the companies fork out overtime pay. You and Your people at HTC take in a lot of money from union people thanks to decent wages. You dont have to like them, but just do some research so you can see just what a difficult battle it was and still is for unions to continue the fight for their members, as well as everybody elses standards of living.
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Skuzzy.. are you supposed to be an impartial mod or not?
If so, you aren't doing a very good job of acting like it. If not then I guess I misunderstood your role.
I can honestly appreciate you having an opinion on issues. I can even understand you censoring people who have different opinions if they don't toe the line when they post. What I can't appreciate is you NOT censoring people who share your opinion when they violate the "rules" you "punished" (censored) people with differing opinions for violating.
It kind of smacks of favoritism. If that was the intention all along, I apologize for being dense.
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On the ranges we have two types of employees, government and contracted. The contractors are typically electronics technicians, eletrical engineers, etc.
Things are a bit different today, but in the past this is how the system worked.
The government would allow companies to bid for the employee contract. This happened every three to five years (or so). The government gives preferential treatment to small businesses that are minority owned. Typically, at the end of a contract period, the company was no longer eligible to bid for the next contract because they became to profitable. Keep in mind... the employees never changed. They stayed on from employer to employer, but did the same work. The only thing that really changed was the administration.
So... the companies have a competitive bidding process. Wages were not allowed to decrease from one contract to the next, but benefits were being cut every time there was a new contract. Wages were seldom increased.
I was a contracted employee and we had a big push to go union. In addition to the wage issues, we had a program manager (lead contractor) that was a horrible totalitarian type. He wasn't particularly qualified to be in his position, but had managed to land the position simply by being in the right place at the right time.
I was on the union board and negotiated the collective bargaining agreement with the company. During our negotiations, a couple of things happened. The PM got fired and the IBEW provided us with current county wage determination guidelines. Many of the employees enjoyed 15-20% wage increases.
Everyone looked up and thought... we don't need the union.
They overlooked one small detail. If there was a CBA between the company and the employees any new company that came in would have to honor it. The employees would in effect have a voice in the government/contractor bidding process.
Anyway... there are still good reasons to have unions. Sometimes, unions are abusive. Same can be said for corporations.
Sorry for the wall of text.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Skuzzy.. are you supposed to be an impartial mod or not?
If so, you aren't doing a very good job of acting like it. If not then I guess I misunderstood your role.
I can honestly appreciate you having an opinion on issues. I can even understand you censoring people who have different opinions if they don't toe the line when they post. What I can't appreciate is you NOT censoring people who share your opinion when they violate the "rules" you "punished" (censored) people with differing opinions for violating.
It kind of smacks of favoritism. If that was the intention all along, I apologize for being dense.
Your post was edited due to it being disrespectful to another member of the board. I could care less what opinion you have about anything. But I will intervene when you start calling others names. And I am pretty damn consistent about it. If I see it, then it will get censored.
EDIT: By the way, this is the second time you have accused me of this. Do not do it again. I have little to no patience for this useless tripe. You have an issue with me, then take to email.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
And you can thank the Unions for those decent benifits. Find one country that does not have or allow unions that provides its workers with benifits. Unions raise the living standards for everybody in this country. The only way to avoid organized labor is by gun. The slave. Your good jobs and decent benifits are a product of a society born out of a war on companies by the Unions. You dont really believe the companies wouldve cleaned up thier sweat shops if somebody dint make them do you? Bad mouth the unions all you want, just be aware that health insurance was unheard of until the unions fought and won this from the company. Now its standard for everybody. 8 hour work weeks? gimme a break. 12 hours 6 days a week until the the unions forced the companies fork out overtime pay. You and Your people at HTC take in a lot of money from union people thanks to decent wages. You dont have to like them, but just do some research so you can see just what a difficult battle it was and still is for unions to continue the fight for their members, as well as everybody elses standards of living.
That was then and this is now. They (the unions) are now a cancer, as far as I am concerned, and have been one for quite some time. Not meant to be a personal reflection on any individual.
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So... unions, fighting for improved benefits for workers won concessions from corporations that led to improved conditions for everyone.
Even you, who hate unions with a passion, will admit this, correct?
And you expect that those corporations, who were forced to make concessions, will VOLUNTARILY keep any of those concessions in place were they not forced to?
Why would you believe this?
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See Rule #4 (take it to email if you have a problem with me or anyone else)
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Agian, blight or not; the unions have establised a wage/benefit scale that even non - union shops emulate.. just to keep the unions out. Kill the unions you kill decent work conditions, hours, wages and benefits... everywhere.
And, but for that one small important detail; I'd tend to agree with yah completely.
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General Motors spends, on average, $150,000 per year Excluding benifits for thier Janitors. WHY you ask? Because in the UAW, the career path END's with being a janitor. YES, thats RIGHT, they desire and want to end up as Janitors. It takes years to make it. If you had any self-respect you would think that cleaning toilets is the last thing you want to do. But for them, a Janitor is free and away from the assembly line. That means its an easy job (the easiest of them all). Maybe they work 3 hrs doing half bellybutton work and the rest of the time they hide away sleeping.
I know one Janitor on third shift who ran a succesful auto detailing shop during the day. I asked him when he slept and he said "at work" and didn't even flintch. It's a culture of scamming, violence, and crime.
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Chooca, if you don't mind me asking... what kind of business do you operate?
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I'm a engineer
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So... unions, fighting for improved benefits for workers won concessions from corporations that led to improved conditions for everyone.
Even you, who hate unions with a passion, will admit this, correct?
And you expect that those corporations, who were forced to make concessions, will VOLUNTARILY keep any of those concessions in place were they not forced to?
Why would you believe this?
I believe it happened 50 years ago. Today, I see no benefit from unions. All I see is waste, arrogance, corruption, and so on. Nothing beneficial about any of that.
I see one dead family member, one home and business destroyed. I see lazy people (the ones I personally know) getting paid outrageous salaries for doing little to nothing.
Let me save you some time. You are not ever going to convince me unions are a good thing, today.
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My pay and benefits are pretty good...No thanks to any union..in fact It's illegal for my profession to form a union.:D
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I have not yet seen anyone discuss the extra costs of the current unions being passed on down to the consumers.
with all the overhead the companies pay for salaries, they pass the cost on, at least in every situation i have witnessed.
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Yep good point,
And it makes me proud to see our economic system finally catching up with the UAW.
For, years the American Consumer was funding this criminal outlaw organization. But no more.
Get the Popcorn ready because a very large dinosaur is about to CROAK.
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Originally posted by Urchin
So... unions, fighting for improved benefits for workers won concessions from corporations that led to improved conditions for everyone.
Even you, who hate unions with a passion, will admit this, correct?
Everyone?
Union members simply extort money from the rest of us.
Don't tell me that you think that the corporations pay for your goodies. They do not, they just pass the cost to the customers (the rest of us), or fold and ship your job to India or Mexico.
Those bastards.
Everybody should be paid what he is worth. Not based on the group membership, but based on what he can produce. Effort does not count, the result does.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
My pay and benefits are pretty good...No thanks to any union..in fact It's illegal for my profession to form a union.:D
You're underpaid. Bet on it.
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LOL !!!!!
what about me???
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Originally posted by Choocha
LOL !!!!!
what about me???
No idea. :)
I used to be in the same line of work as ASTAC.
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Originally posted by mietla
Everyone?
Union members simply extort money from the rest of us.
Don't tell me that you think that the corporations pay for your goodies. They do not, they just pass the cost to the customers (the rest of us), or fold and ship your job to India or Mexico.
Those bastards.
Everybody should be paid what he is worth. Not based on the group membership, but based on what he can produce. Effort does not count, the result does.
Sure, and once corporations finally get rid of unions, we can return to the glory days of the late 19th century. Unions won some important concessions that are taken for granted today as "status quo".
Slowly but surely, we are returning to the day of Lassez-Faire capitalism, and I imagine that if there is any coherent form of civilization in a couple hundred years (assuming we "stay the course", your descendants and those of everyone else will be a special sort of "subject" that is so despised on this interesting board o' contradictions.. a McSubject.
But it will be a slow process, corporations will have to buy politicians slowly in the beginning, and continue to crush the spirit and will to resist of the "common man". Medical benefits? Cya. In the near future, the only people that will be able to afford medical care will be the "elite" (corporate officers, CEOs, and their families). 5 days a week, 8 hours a day? Inefficient. Lets try 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, to start. If we still can't "compete", then maybe 6 days, 14 hours. Overtime? How on earth can American corporations compete in a GLOBAL ECONOMY if they have to pay OVERTIME?
In short, the life your grandchildren will live will be nasty, brutish, and short, unless you happen to be a millionaire. But at least "America" will be able to compete, her economy will be stronger than ever, and the wealthiest 1% will be better off than ever before.
But the really awesome thing is that the wealthiest 50% (the "middle class") buys into the idea that the wealthiest 1% will share... lol. The bottom 40% has already been sucked dry by the corporations... to stay competitive they need YOUR wealth (well, your money anyway, since very few people outside of the top 10% have any "wealth").
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If our society is really in that bad of shape, then we are dead already. I mean, if we really have to depend on the graft, corruption, and arrogance of the unions, we are in deeper poo-poo than I thought.
Trading one evil for another is never a win.
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very weak. It's not even an argument.
Tell me why should people be rewarded based on a group membership, not based on their own merit.
Perhaps a janitor is a janitor is a janitor, but it pretty much ends there. Clearly you are not suggesting that an engineer is and engineer is an engineer.
I, for one, would never join a union. It would limit me instead of help me. I want to be paid for what I can deliver and not have my reward being limited by the weakest engineer anywhere.
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Uhm... how can we revert back to 19th century sweatshops if we already have laws on the books, thanks to unions, that prevent it?
Unions are useful, for very brief periods of time, to correct unfair practices. However, once the unfair practice is outlawed, why should the union continue to exist and hamper the business? Form it up when you need it, and disband it when it's no longer useful... unless you like paying for a bunch of people $100k+ a year to send you on a strike over a $1/hr pay increase. I'd be willing to bet that union dues are higher than what you'd gain off of a strike anyways.
There's a really big difference between corporations returning to sweatshops, and somebody demanding $30/hr for a minimum wage job.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
That was then and this is now. They (the unions) are now a cancer, as far as I am concerned, and have been one for quite some time. Not meant to be a personal reflection on any individual.
I can easily see how people can believe that and it may be true. But you have to look at the big picture. From my experience with big business, I have no doubt in my mind that without any sort of protection, fair value as you call it, the middle class would be wiped clean. Just think of where we would all be if we couldnt afford to buy or upgrade our computers every cupple of years. Illegal immigrants from mexico making half the prevailing wage arent gonna be playing many computer games if they cant buy a computer. How does the middle class affect your life and your familys. Maybe your kid aint good in school and winds up on an assembly line. Good luck making 20 bucks an hour in a non union shop. Good luck making minimum wage in a nonunion country.
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Originally posted by Choocha
When I was in Detroit I went outa my why to make sure that anybody working on my house was not affil. with any Union. I hired a truckload of Mexican illegals to roof my house once. They worked hard, didn't complain and finished the job for 1/2 price.
Yes but if you had a room addition to do and handed that same truckload of Mexican illegals a set of blueprints and said "rough this in for me" , I think you may have been in for a few surprises.
shamus
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Originally posted by indy007
Uhm... how can we revert back to 19th century sweatshops if we already have laws on the books, thanks to unions, that prevent it?
Unions are useful, for very brief periods of time, to correct unfair practices. However, once the unfair practice is outlawed, why should the union continue to exist and hamper the business? Form it up when you need it, and disband it when it's no longer useful... unless you like paying for a bunch of people $100k+ a year to send you on a strike over a $1/hr pay increase. I'd be willing to bet that union dues are higher than what you'd gain off of a strike anyways.
There's a really big difference between corporations returning to sweatshops, and somebody demanding $30/hr for a minimum wage job.
Indy... was abortion illegal once? Would a lot of people like to see it be made illegal again? How can that happen if there are already laws on the books making it legal?
A lot of the "laws" you take for granted aren't laws, they are custom. And the ones that are laws are so full of loopholes that they amount to custom anyway.
Corporations are a means to transfer wealth. They are not some altruistic group of rich people thinking "hmm, how can I improve the lives of my fellow americans?" they are groups of rich people thinking "hmmm... how can I cut costs today to fatten my quarterly bonus check even more?"
Somehow the vast majority of Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that making the wealthiest 1% even more wealthy is good for "everybody". It isn't. It is good for the wealthiest 1%, and it is good for the politicians they own. That is about all it is good for.
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I didnt have time to check to see if this some unpartial sponsered study or paid for by the Jimmy Hoffa foundation, but its a cut and paste.
Unions have a substantial impact on the compensation and work lives of both unionized and non-unionized workers. This report presents current data on unions' effect on wages, fringe benefits, total compensation, pay inequality, and workplace protections.
Some of the conclusions are:
• Unions raise wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise compensation, including both wages and benefits, by about 28%.
• Unions reduce wage inequality because they raise wages more for low- and middle-wage workers than for higher-wage workers, more for blue-collar than for white-collar workers, and more for workers who do not have a college degree.
• Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries.
• The impact of unions on total nonunion wages is almost as large as the impact on total union wages.
• The most sweeping advantage for unionized workers is in fringe benefits. Unionized workers are more likely than their nonunionized counterparts to receive paid leave, are approximately 18% to 28% more likely to have employer-provided health insurance, and are 23% to 54% more likely to be in employer-provided pension plans.
• Unionized workers receive more generous health benefits than nonunionized workers. They also pay 18% lower health care deductibles and a smaller share of the costs for family coverage. In retirement, unionized workers are 24% more likely to be covered by health insurance paid for by their employer.
• Unionized workers receive better pension plans. Not only are they more likely to have a guaranteed benefit in retirement, their employers contribute 28% more toward pensions.
• Unionized workers receive 26% more vacation time and 14% more total paid leave (vacations and holidays).
Unions play a pivotal role both in securing legislated labor protections and rights such as safety and health, overtime, and family/medical leave and in enforcing those rights on the job. Because unionized workers are more informed, they are more likely to benefit from social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance and workers compensation. Unions are thus an intermediary institution that provides a necessary complement to legislated benefits and protections.
The union wage premium
It should come as no surprise that unions raise wages, since this has always been one of the main goals of unions and a major reason that workers seek collective bargaining. How much unions raise wages, for whom, and the consequences of unionization for workers, firms, and the economy have been studied by economists and other researchers for over a century (for example, the work of Alfred Marshall). This section presents evidence from the 1990s that unions raise the wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise total compensation by about 28%.
The research literature generally finds that unionized workers' earnings exceed those of comparable nonunion workers by about 15%, a phenomenon known as the "union wage premium."
H. Gregg Lewis found the union wage premium to be 10% to 20% in his two well-known assessments, the first in the early 1960s (Lewis 1963) and the second more than 20 years later (Lewis 1986). Freeman and Medoff (1984) in their classic analysis, What Do Unions Do?, arrived at a similar conclusion.
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Our pension paln is through the Union, it is managed by professional money guys and is doing extremely well. As you all have heard, companies are taking pensions away from their retirees. Lucent for one and there are many others to come. companies are changing the laws that allow them to yank retirements away from their workers at the slightest sign of trouble. Maybe the unions are evil but Golly-geemit, big corp aint no angel.
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But I don't understand.... how can the companies change the laws? They are.. laws!!!
Lol.
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Companies are groups of people.
Groups of people vote for politicians.
Politicians write laws.
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Reads like a marketing ad for unions. Let's don't mention the businesses they have shutdown/ruined, or the family members murdered or the fear inducing tactics used to entrench themselves in businesses.
The block of small businesses my Dad's business was one all went bankrupt 6 months after the unions got thier hooks into them. While my Dad's insurance premiums went up due to the fire, he stayed in business up until he retired.
Keep talking about how unions are a good thing. I have alot more examples of this kind of crap.
One thing not in your study. How much do consumer products prices go up strictly due to unions? Someone is paying that floor sweeper's outrageous wages.
Yes, yes, all corporations are evil. I guess that is why John Adler (CEO/President retired) of Adaptec Inc handed out large bonuses to all the employees every year they met thier goals. I knew John well enough to call him friend. He liked seeing people reap what they sowed. He made his money off of the stock and did quite well for himself. But come to think of it, I did too. Yes yes, evil.
Now, that is not to say some corporations are not evil and plagued with greedy execs. They exist. They exist because people are too weak to just walk out and get another job. who the heck wants to work for some greedy butt head anyways? I sure don't.
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Today I get to choose between rent and groceries. Ok ..ok .... no choice really. Rent.
Next payday I choose between child support and .... hmmm ... no choice there, either. ;)
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Originally posted by LePaul
While at UPS, I got tired of the Teamster clones who knew only what the union boys insisted they know. Like herded sheep. If you tried to talk to these pro-union folks, all they could do was spout off the predictable pro-union mantra over and over.
I got injured on the job and my loving Teamsters dropped the ball. I was out of work for a month and they did nothing. But rest assured, the dues were deducted. So call me biased or what have you....but the notion that unions are all about the members is hogwash. Unions are about the union leaders and their political ambitions.
LePaul: I had an identical experience with Teamsters Union I was a member of for almost 20 years when I worked with Purolator Courier. When I did finally need some assistance they were of absolutely NO help whatsoever. One of my biggest gripes of all is unions. As you said: "Unions are about the union leaders and their political ambitions." I could not agree more!
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Yes, they are just as corrupt and evil as the evil corporate execs.
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Sorry Skuzzy..I think u are way outta line here..I calling my Union steward on you.
:furious
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Well, being a shareholder of multiple companies, and an evil corporate executive in my own company, maybe I'm looking at it through tinted lenses.
So, I unionized my only employee (me) and ordered a strike. I wandered around in my driveway for a few minutes, got bored, called off the strike, and went back to work. The realization that I was losing money by the second kicked in.
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SirLoin,
Call him quick because the CAW/UAW are staggered and on the ropes. If Delphi is succesful in dropping thier hourly rate from 28/hr to 17/hr (they originally asked for 11/hr) your bro's are going to strike. That's going to be fun to watch because that will put GM into chapter 11. That's what Kurt Kirkorian is counting on. Do you think he is buying up big chuncks of GM for fun? Hell no. Once GM goes into chapter 11, then they will ask the courts to negate thier agreements with the UAW/CAW. Can you say 50% pay cut? You don't work for GM but your bro's do, and they ain't going to be happy with you making 50% more than them. Let's see, with a 50% pay cut, a man with a 9th grade education can start at GM for $15 with benefits. That's still a bit on the high side.
Notice to investors: once GM goes through bankruptcy court and unchains inself from the UAW yoke, the stock will soar. Why do you think Kurt Kirkorian is buying all he can.
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Originally posted by indy007
Well, being a shareholder of multiple companies, and an evil corporate executive in my own company, maybe I'm looking at it through tinted lenses.
So, I unionized my only employee (me) and ordered a strike. I wandered around in my driveway for a few minutes, got bored, called off the strike, and went back to work. The realization that I was losing money by the second kicked in.
You too? Damn, I negotiated with myself for a pay increase, settled before it went to arbitration and then raised all my prices.
I love America.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Sure, and once corporations finally get rid of unions, we can return to the glory days of the late 19th century. Unions won some important concessions that are taken for granted today as "status quo".
Slowly but surely, we are returning to the day of Lassez-Faire capitalism, and I imagine that if there is any coherent form of civilization in a couple hundred years (assuming we "stay the course", your descendants and those of everyone else will be a special sort of "subject" that is so despised on this interesting board o' contradictions.. a McSubject.
But it will be a slow process, corporations will have to buy politicians slowly in the beginning, and continue to crush the spirit and will to resist of the "common man". Medical benefits? Cya. In the near future, the only people that will be able to afford medical care will be the "elite" (corporate officers, CEOs, and their families). 5 days a week, 8 hours a day? Inefficient. Lets try 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, to start. If we still can't "compete", then maybe 6 days, 14 hours. Overtime? How on earth can American corporations compete in a GLOBAL ECONOMY if they have to pay OVERTIME?
In short, the life your grandchildren will live will be nasty, brutish, and short, unless you happen to be a millionaire. But at least "America" will be able to compete, her economy will be stronger than ever, and the wealthiest 1% will be better off than ever before.
But the really awesome thing is that the wealthiest 50% (the "middle class") buys into the idea that the wealthiest 1% will share... lol. The bottom 40% has already been sucked dry by the corporations... to stay competitive they need YOUR wealth (well, your money anyway, since very few people outside of the top 10% have any "wealth").
BS, I have worked in the corporate world a long time. You have no clue.
People have value, they get paid based on that value or they find another company that will pay it. That is why the pay stays fair because if your work is in demand the company better pay you what you want or you will find another company that will.
If your work is not in demand you may need to find a union job or retrain in something that is.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
BS, I have worked in the corporate world a long time. You have no clue.
People have value, they get paid based on that value or they find another company that will pay it. That is why the pay stays fair because if your work is in demand the company better pay you what you want or you will find another company that will.
If your work is not in demand you may need to find a union job or retrain in something that is.
Lol... gee, I can't imagine why you'd disagree with me.
I do agree with one thing you said though... people do have value. Not just the CEOs and their flunkies and their kids.... EVERY person has value. And EVERY person has a right to a job they can support themselves with.
I should probably be amazed that you folks think it is not only OK, but actually RIGHT that someone who was unable/unwilling to be a cog in the corporate machine should be nothing but a wage slave to those who were.
I should be, but I'm not. Everyone needs to feel like they are better than someone, after all.
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Originally posted by Urchin
EVERY person has value.
Well, every person has "some" value, but every person has a different value. Just because two guys do the same job, does not mean that their value is the same (which you seem to imply).
Originally posted by Urchin
And EVERY person has a right to a job they can support themselves with.
now this is simply absurd. "Right" to a job? Provided and guaranteed by whom?
You have a right to look for job, change the one you have for a better one, or even create your own job.
But "right to a job"? Where did you get that? Oh, never mind, I know where.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You're underpaid. Bet on it.
Yeah..but I get by alright.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I should probably be amazed that you folks think it is not only OK, but actually RIGHT that someone who was unable/unwilling to be a cog in the corporate machine should be nothing but a wage slave to those who were.
I should be, but I'm not. Everyone needs to feel like they are better than someone, after all.
Ok, you got me. I cannot even imagine that perspective, let alone come up with something worthwhile to say. What is a 'wage slave'? And why would anyone need to feel better than someone else?
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Good luck making 20 bucks an hour in a non union shop. Good luck making minimum wage in a nonunion country.
Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ok, you got me. I cannot even imagine that perspective, let alone come up with something worthwhile to say. What is a 'wage slave'? And why would anyone need to feel better than someone else?
(From wikipedia)
In terms used by critics of capitalism, wage slavery is the condition where a person must sell his or her labor-power, submitting to the authority of an employer, in order merely to subsist.
That is the definition I prefer.
Because someone doesn't have a college degree, they don't deserve a house, or a car, or all the other things that Americans take for granted today?
How many Chinese or Africans own cars? Or have single family houses?
THAT is the life you want for Americans? Simply because they aren't "good enough" to deserve a house for their family, or a car to get to a job that pays a living wage?
Because that is the life that Americans are going to get, as soon as every "blue collar" job gets outsourced by corporations. Skuzzy, for God's sake.. you work at a company providing a LUXURY GOOD and you think that unions are out to get you? Unions made your job POSSIBLE. Without unions, your customer base would be you, HT, Natedog, Pyro, and Superfly. Oh, and maybe a rich kid or two who's daddy bought him a computer and a subscription. 5,000 people wouldn't HAVE $15 a month to send to you.
Anyway, I'm getting myself all worked up or nothing I suppose. I'll leave you all to your circlejerk.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.
EVERY job in a "non union" country is a "minimum wage" job.
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Originally posted by Urchin
EVERY job in a "non union" country is a "minimum wage" job.
A non-Union country...let's see..
NO restrictions on age/hours worked/enviromental laws/workplace harrasment/wage cuts...etc
No pensions or hopes of making enough dough to raise a family..etc
It really is setting back the working bloke by unilaterally slamming(ranting) on trade unions.
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Well Sirloin, to a capitalist all of the above fall under the cost of labor, so I guess it is ok to bunch it up into a lump "wage".
And actually, it is possible to raise a family, etc. making very little money, you just can't do it in the fashion that Americans (nor Canadians I'd imagine) are accustomed to. Although one thing that fascinates me (kinda like a train wreck fascination though) is that the American economy is now almost completely a service economy, so the "Blue collar" jobs are no longer in manufacturing, but in lesser paying fields like retail. On top of that... the economy is driven almost entirely (~70%) by consumer spending... the very people that our fellow posters feel do not deserve the basic nescessities.
The only question I have is, once the "average american" (after all, we can't all be the top 1%) cannot afford a house, car, or any other "luxuries"... what is going to keep the U.S. economy going?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Now, that is not to say some corporations are not evil and plagued with greedy execs. They exist. They exist because people are too weak to just walk out and get another job. who the heck wants to work for some greedy butt head anyways? I sure don't.
And why dont the companies just kick out the greedy floor sweepers and sht shovelers instead of signing on to labor agreements and the wages and benefits that go along with them? Lockouts are a perfectly legal tool in the big corps box. they can use it whenever thye feel like it. The argument that its somehow unfair for a collective bargaining group to strike a company is ludicris. If the sht shovleres can be replaced so easily, then the companies would do it. And should do it.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.
Yea? Unless that screw is the one holding on the airbag acuator assembly in the nose of your familys car. And one goofed screw can cost the company 100 million dollars. Or maybe its the screw on a landing gear of an airplane. Now if its the screw on a dishwasher, thats a 5 dollar per day job and is headed to mexico. If its the screw on a toy,its a 2 dollar per day job and its headed to china. So things are working out well for everybody as we speak.
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I've run some of the pro-union posts here through babelfish, fascinating results:
"Rise up, comrades! The proletariat must throw down their tools and face down the bourgeoisie! The dialectic demands it!"
I don't know what it means, but it sure sounds impassioned!
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Thanks for that, ahem, respectful post. It sure added a lot to the conversation.
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My pleasure! As a small business owner, I guess that I'm seen as "the enemy" of my union friends. It's funny, not all business owners are fat cat executives smoking cigars lit with $100 bills.
Criticizing merit-based wages set by market forces sounds kinda communist to me, but then again.... I'm the enemy.
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No, I really don't consider small business owners to be the "enemy". The problem is that most small business owners are stupid and greedy, so they help the large business owners tear down pro-"little people" regulations (employee, consumer protections) thinking that whats good for the goose is good for the gander. That is true, until the big box version of whatever small business you run moves into town and runs you out of business.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Corrupt, arrogant ones (most of them from what I can tell). I really do not give a rats poop about the unions, nor anyone else's opinion about them. They can all drop off a cliff and I will not blink an eye over it.
They are a plague on humanity and only there out of greed and some cheesy notion of power. Not any better than the terrorists who took out the towers.
I am a Union member and can see that you aren't, but I still would never want anything to happen to you such as dropping off a cliff or being referred to as a terrorist and really hope you didn't mean that about me.
AFL-CIO local 258 certified natural gas lines welder.
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No, he didn't mean it about any particular union member, because I think that would constitute being disrespectful. Unless maybe he asked you to fall off a cliff and called you a terrorist politely. Like "Please go jump off a cliff, you filthy unionite terrorist!".
Anyway... it was just rhetoric, he doesnt actually want you to jump off a cliff.
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"Me" was as in any union member, as it takes union membership to have a union at all.
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Originally posted by Urchin
No, I really don't consider small business owners to be the "enemy". The problem is that most small business owners are stupid and greedy,
Oh gosh! I don't want to be stupid and greedy! I recant my ways, I have been SHAMED! Please sir, put me down as a union supporter sir!
I'm not stupid... I'm not!
EDIT: Removed great big 'ol exaggerated rolleyes.gif for readability.
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Relax, relax... I never said YOU were stupid and greedy. I'm sure you are a fine, upstanding small business owner. IIRC, you run a pizza shop or something, don't you?
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Of course not, you never tell someone that THEY'RE the stupid one. No, just imply that some unspecified third person would be stupid if they did X or Y. This makes the target either change their position or else tacitly accept that they've just been called stupid.
Pretty subtle, my 4 year old almost missed it when he read the thread.
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The government becoming involved in things via OSHA releives the old argument of unions "protecting" employees.
If you wish to artificially inflate wages based on thoughts like "deserve"...then there's your union chants.
Unions can never be competitive, they cant by design. The seldom, if ever, give up anything to keep their livelihood. They always want more, more more.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Of course not, you never tell someone that THEY'RE the stupid one. No, just imply that some unspecified third person would be stupid if they did X or Y. This makes the target either change their position or else tacitly accept that they've just been called stupid.
Pretty subtle, my 4 year old almost missed it when he read the thread.
Have it your way then.
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Originally posted by LePaul
The government becoming involved in things via OSHA releives the old argument of unions "protecting" employees.
If you wish to artificially inflate wages based on thoughts like "deserve"...then there's your union chants.
Unions can never be competitive, they cant by design. The seldom, if ever, give up anything to keep their livelihood. They always want more, more more.
Unions aren't designed to be competitive, they are designed to force corporations to share the wealth with the workers.
Besides, you'll get your wish soon enough, IIRC there has already been legislation passed limiting who is eligible for overtime, and the government is standing by encouraging various corporations to ditch pension plans, medical benefits, and other "union mandated" employee safety nets. You can't even go with a "boosh is evil" type rant here, since politicians of both parties are equally anti-labor, the Repug's are just more honest about it.
Personally I hope everyone that is priviliged enough to post here on these boards can maintain their lifestyle in the face of increasing global "competition". I really don't think it is going to happen... I have a feeling that quite a few folks here aren't as important as they think they are.
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"I'M RITCH, BEEEYACTCH!!!"
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Originally posted by Urchin
Unions aren't designed to be competitive, they are designed to force corporations to share the wealth with the workers.
Well you just pointed out the problem with unions.
In the real world, when your company is not competitive, they go out of buisness.
Unions force companies to pay workers more then the job they do is worth(in some cases). That cost adds to the product. That raises the price. When your competiter does not use union labor, and puts out a better product at a cheaper price, all those union workers getting paid to much to do the job will be out of work.
Many UAW workers are going to find this out very soon. Those UAW union leaders won't care, they will be laughing themselfs to sleep in their million $ homes.
The sadest part about this whole thing is you can't see that most big union leaders are the same as the corporate leaders you despise.
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Originally posted by Urchin
the Repug's
Self identified Democratic Underground troll...figures.
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So let me ge this straight, Urchin. Americans and (parenthetically, for some reason) Canadians, are the only humans on the planet living above squalor and poverty?
How would you explain the correlation of a country outside North America having weak unions (actually sponsored by companies) and an average liquid (cash) savings of $109,000 per family?
"...most small business owners are stupid and greedy..."
:)
I don't want to pry, but do you have a severe physical or mental handicap that prohibits you from leaving your room to interact with people? Is the internet your sole window to the world?
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He hasn't shed that thorny shell yet:p
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My dad belongs to a union, whichever union Lockheed Martin has all of its assemblers in at the Fort Worth plant. I asked his opinion on the whole thing.
"They've got their ups and down," he said. "They certainly ain't perfect by any means."
I've never belonged to a union so I can't really comment on the whole thing. :(
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The idea that someone else than a direct superior should tell me how to do my job repels me more than quitting for another job.
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Unions force paying more for less results. They'll forever claim management is greedy and want what they have, despite the *fact* there are difficult skill sets involved. Joe Blow pushing a button on an assembly line all day neednt get the same level of pay as the engineering department who designs the blasted machine Mr Blow pushes all day.
Unions thrive on envy. Its not fair, by God, that others make more than you [edit out all the work, education and skilled training that others do...but anyways!]. Its this whole "You deserve" mantra. Its greedy, its tiresome and its just outright stupid.
I dont see managers clawing up other managers cars if they have a differing point of view....
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Originally posted by texace
My dad belongs to a union, whichever union Lockheed Martin has all of its assemblers in at the Fort Worth plant. I asked his opinion on the whole thing.
"They've got their ups and down," he said. "They certainly ain't perfect by any means."
I've never belonged to a union so I can't really comment on the whole thing. :(
Thats my opinion as well, Tex. Regarding unions, I've said in the past that "Sometimes you have sleep with the devil..."
Financially-speaking where I work, if you can get a better education, and land a salary job, you'll no longer be under the wage limitations that unions restrict you to. Like I mentioned earlier, I've doubled my wage since leaving the union in 1999.
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SNO,
Everybody in Michigan is in a Union. You got the, "brother hood of this and that."
Why do you think Michigan has the highest unemployment in the United States and Leads the country in chaper 11's?
Go to a non-union state, say Texas or Florida and its seems to me that people are thriving.
I moved from Michgan to Florida and I find it surprising how many people from Michigan are looking for work here.
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Prices are driven by the law of supply and demand--unions and socialism try to get around that-- a guy sweeping a floor ought to make 6.50 an hour--if he's making 30.00 and hour.. more power to him. But I don't want to hear a F$$$%n thing when he can't make the payment on his house when the plant he works at gets shut down and moved to Mexico because it's too expensive to operate. If the job you do requires little knowledge, experience and no education, chances are someone in another country will be doing it in the not too distant future. Not too many places that poor guy is gonna make that money again.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Unions force paying more for less results. They'll forever claim management is greedy and want what they have, despite the *fact* there are difficult skill sets involved. Joe Blow pushing a button on an assembly line all day neednt get the same level of pay as the engineering department who designs the blasted machine Mr Blow pushes all day.
Unions thrive on envy. Its not fair, by God, that others make more than you [edit out all the work, education and skilled training that others do...but anyways!]. Its this whole "You deserve" mantra. Its greedy, its tiresome and its just outright stupid.
I dont see managers clawing up other managers cars if they have a differing point of view....
You make a good point for unions. If that engineer was in a union, he would be making a decent wage with overtime and benifits.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
You make a good point for unions. If that engineer was in a union, he would be making a decent wage with overtime and benifits.
Yeah, that's an idea. Have an engineer belong to the union too.
But then what about his manager? Well, let's have him belong to the union as well. And then the CEO...
Once we all belong to the "union", we'll all make what we "deserve". Not based on what we produce, but based on what we want (there is no such thing as need).
I've alway said that communisms is an incurable and terminal disease.
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If unions are so bad and are killing all the companies that are unionized then why is it that the CEO's and their main subordinates of these unionized companies make 6 and 7 figure salaries? Why wouldn't these corparate leaders lower their salaries to make "their" companies more competitive in the market instead of wanting all the terrible union workers to make $10 an hour and hope they can buy food after paying rent, all the while they maintain their 6 and 7 figure salaries wondering why all the unionized workers are upset? There are a share of workers union or non union that don't carry their weight, but to just blame a union for all the trouble is a little lopsided. I also realize that no matter what is said on this thread is not going to change anyones opinion on the matter as each individual is more than likely relating what has or has not happened to or around them. The prior question in this response is something that troubles me and I do know that some of the leaders have taken concessions but I think that is abnormal.
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I worked for Garden State tanning.The company OWNED the union.They got good wages,but they worked their tulips off for them too.6 days a week working and the union made a killing off the dues.They did squat for the employees so you can say I think unions Ive had to deal with blow goats.They look out for their own intrests more so than the overall bigger picture.Short term goals all designed to benifit them.
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I am an engineer,
My skills command a certain $$ on the open market. I'm paid well and don't need a criminal extortion ring to help, thanks.
Imagine if Hitech had to join a Union. I can see it now, "Hey Hitech, we called the commitie man on you cause your working to hard....slow down your making us look bad......Hitech were going to strike cause Larry overthere has a son that needs to get a kick back........not with us?...ok we'll kick the **** outa you.....which do you prefer, meth or crack?"
This company (HiTech Creations) , and to a large extent, the rise of the SOUTH as an economic power, is PRIMIA FACIA evidence that Union's are irrelevant.
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US Department Of Labor (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t16.htm)
Average hourly earnings of production or nonsupervisory workers(1) on private nonfarm payrolls
by industry sector and selected industry detail
Total private...................... ..... Feb 2006 $16.52
Far more than enough to own a reasonable house, a reliable car and cloth/educate/feed 2.5 children.
Right? I mean that's TONS o' money for a family to live on.
That's $553.42 a week. Raising a famliy is a cakewalk on that, right?
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With communism, this sense of entitlement can be met! Everyone is equal!
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One thing I don't think you guys realize is that it really is one way or the other. Marx had the scenario right, I'm not sure he had the ending right though.
But eventually, unless the wealthy manage to crush them entirely, the impoverished majority will *make* them share.
Whats the old saying? The rule of law is made at the end of a barrel of a gun? Something like that, anyway.
By the way Chairboy, how many "undocumented aliens" you got working at your pizza shop? You at least pay em the minimum wage?
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There are some notes to that data, Toad:
"The series are the average earnings of all production or nonsupervisory jobs, not the earnings average of "typical" jobs or jobs held by "typical" workers. Specifically, there are no adjustments for occupational, age, or schooling variations or for household type or
location. Many studies have established the significance of these factors and that their impact varies over time."
The average family is 3.18, not 4.5 people. We just reduced expenses...
In the average family of today, the spouse contributes another 60% to that amount, but the data set of that group will show a much higher rate of spousal contribution (two-earner families). We just increased the average family income...
Also, US workers are in the top 5 worldwide of missed days of work. That would be employee responsibility, not employer.
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Urchin, back in kindergarten and grade school, the top grading students split their grades with you?
Did you split your grades with lesser scoring students?
In life you get what you deserve, no more, no less.
Difficulty is symptomatic of incorrect method.
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Originally posted by mietla
Yeah, that's an idea. Have an engineer belong to the union too.
But then what about his manager? Well, let's have him belong to the union as well. And then the CEO...
Once we all belong to the "union", we'll all make what we "deserve". Not based on what we produce, but based on what we want (there is no such thing as need).
I've alway said that communisms is an incurable and terminal disease.
Buy, thats a tuff one. The button pusher belongs to the union and makes more than the engineer. So unions are bad. The engineer doesnt belong to a union and doesnt make what he deserves. So companies are good, err, unions are, uhhh, ok, im confused. :confused: :huh. I think the engineer needs to either join a union or gather up his nads and demand a raise.
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I may be wrong (just ask wife) but I think the largest block of union members nowadays are PUBLIC employees. (15% of all union employees)What frightful things they must have endured at the hands of the Man.
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Self-employment is great.
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Originally posted by Urchin
By the way Chairboy, how many "undocumented aliens" you got working at your pizza shop?
None, next please.
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Originally posted by Rolex
There are some notes to that data, Toad:
It wasn't meant to be definitive, it was meant as a quick, reasonable, somewhat reliable observation.
It boils down to this: the only thing man truly has that is of great value is the actual moments of his life.
Some feel that taking 33% of a man's daily allotment of time, the workday, and reimbursing him ~ $600 for the five day workweek is a more than fair exchange. MORE than fair; some think that's too much.
Yet it's quite obvious that $600 a week doesn't really "pay the bills" for a family with children in the USA. It's more than enough in China... but not here.
So, we drag Mom into the workforce too, usually paying her a bit less than her male counterpart. We now have our "latchkey" children, a system that really works well for us, eh? All the while taking 1/3 of Mom's life away from her as well.
The solution? Ship all the jobs to China.
Yeah... THAT'S the TICKET!
THAT will give us a booming economy in the world marketplace.
I'll close with a biblical verse for those of you that can understand the basis of this argument:
Deuteronomy 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
Perhaps our CEO's find that too mystifying; maybe this one from Proverbs?
Proverbs 12:10 (New International Version)
A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.
Quite simply:
Corinthians 9:10 (New International Version)
Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.
These days, the plowman and the thresher get meager, penurious share indeed.
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Originally posted by Toad
US Department Of Labor (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t16.htm)
Total private...................... ..... Feb 2006 $16.52
Far more than enough to own a reasonable house, a reliable car and cloth/educate/feed 2.5 children.
Right? I mean that's TONS o' money for a family to live on.
That's $553.42 a week. Raising a famliy is a cakewalk on that, right?
jeez, and after taxes is what 420. Take out groceries and gas and utilities, health insurance comes out of that also, if you cxan afford it. Good luck. man i am fortunate, as much as i pss and moan about my job. I hate working 65-75 hours a week, but I guess i would hate wathcing my kids wearing potato sacks to church even worse. Im telling you guys, the insourcing is coming our way. I can see it in my business. Service technicians for high speed packaging companies are 50% no habla. And 50% the pay, i presume. And they are happy to have a job. Like choocha said, 50% the cost, no benifits, will work all day and no complain. Its just not blue collar, they all want a peice of the pie. Unions force a base pay so the undercutters cant come in and lower the standards.
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WWCGD?
(http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~calcio-d/auto/che%20guevara%20kakou.jpg)
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Yea.. actually Chairboy you were right....
I was just being polite earlier.
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It's not just the lowly blue collar worker as 500 more GM engineers just found out.
China and India are pumping out better engineers at a higher rate than we are that will work for 20% of U.S. pay.
In a few years when these U.S. graduate engineers are working for technician wages a few eyes will open.
shamus
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No, they won't.
Well, maybe they will. But I have a feeling that some of the not so important important people will have such a hard time admitting that they were wrong that nothing will change.
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Unions do actually do some good. Im in a union for the first time in a LOOONG time the CWA. I have awsome health care because of the unions. I only pay a co payment the rest tis free. I get a choice of 4 health care providers + dental and vision.
To date i havent needed my union steward to helop in a disputed in managment. . We get 2 very respectable raises per year. I've heard guys with more senority complain about the union and they dont belong to it. Here in texas they dont have to. Yet they dont mind getting the benifits the union was able to get from the company. Ussually the complaint is the union dues. Which are tax deductable.
We are fortunate that our company and the union has a good relationship. Im still new to unions but, I think that as long as they have a good relationship with the company and dont make stupid demands thay can be a good thing for the common man.
No system is perfect but having a union to go to bat for ya when ya need it gives me some peace of mind i didnt have without a union.
Comunications Workers of America local 6171 since 1/3/06
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Nice post Wildcard...Like most people(including myself) never thought much of unions.
That is until you sign up and see what representation is really all about.
Haven't seen 1 card carrying (UAW/CAW/Teamsters..etc) member in this thread bash their union..only second hand BS and disinformation.
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That's cause they are protecting thier Gravey Train. If you had a 9th grade education and made 125k for cleaning toliets would you complain (remarkabley they actualy ***** and moan alot lol...) .
Meanwhile your the reason your kids will never work on an assembly line and make a decent wage.
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Graduated highschool w honours,4 years college(Aircraft Maintenance Engineering),worked 5 years at DeHavilland's before my job at Ford.
:huh
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Just read this in the paper, I'm to busy to check the primary source but it seems plausible.
According to the National Low Income Housing Coalition, last year was the first year on record that a full-time worker at minimum wage could not afford a one bedroom apartment anywhere in the country at market rates.
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Originally posted by Choocha
Meanwhile your the reason your kids will never work on an assembly line and make a decent wage.
Hardly.
The reason North American kids will never work on an assembly line and make a decent wage is that there are kids in third world countries that will work for $500 a month and North American CEO's that are falling all over themselves to hire them.
That's where the competition is. If NA kids aren't competitive with $500 a month, the jobs are leaving.
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Yes i agree that is happening Toad...But when the lack of a skilled workforce there results in terrible quality,those same CEO's are gonna be taking early retirement buyouts.(Talkin auto sector)
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The execs couldnt care less about the company they work for.. they'll be floating down on their golden parachutes while the companies go bankrupt.
Rich people are still rich during an economic depression, so they don't really have any incentive to care.
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Toad and SirLoin,
Then how can Toyota and Nissan make 20% margin hiring US workers and paying them a great wage?
Answer: Thier workers actualy work for a living.
Really my statement should be refraised: SirLion, You're the reason you're children will have to move to Alabama and EARN thier money.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Yea.. actually Chairboy you were right....
I was just being polite earlier.
Do you not see the similarities between what you're saying and communism?
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LOL....
Here bud... see if you can figure this out.
Toyota Powers Ahead at Kentucky Plant (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5062797)
....Renee Brown works assembling the Camry -- the nation's best-selling car. She puts in seat belts and cup holders at Toyota's plant in Kentucky horse country....
...Brown previously worked as an assistant manager at Dairy Queen, where she made $20,000 annually. Six years ago, she got a job at Toyota.
Now, Brown makes $70,000 a year -- more than twice the average manufacturing wage in the area.
The United Auto Workers have tried to crack the Toyota plant since before it opened. Last spring, they opened their own organizing office just down the road.
But Brown says that Toyota's wages are so close to the union's, she doesn't see the advantage.
And one other thing:
In 1997, the state of Alabama granted huge subsidies to Mercedes in exchange for a plant that would employ 1,500 people.
What were the details of this huge incentive package?
$300 million in tax breaks, $253 million in direct incentives, $60 million in Alabama taxpayer money to send fellow Alabamans to Germany for training, and a promise to buy 2,500 of the new Mercedes SUV’s at $30,000 each.
Based on just the initial $300 million grant alone, those 1,500 jobs will cost Alabama taxpayers $200,000 per job. Apparently Alabama, not Mercedes, will be paying those salaries for years to come.
Think that would help Mercedes be "competitive"? Think it's the "non-union" labor that makes them competitive? Maybe it's the State paying their workers for about 3 years that helps them be competitive?
Toyota and Nissan got sweetheart deals on the taxpayer too.
Lastly............ Toyota is the best selling brand in the world. Think that helps them be "competitive"? Maybe it's the fact that GM and Ford are turning out the bland Malibu and Focus that make them lag Toyota?
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You know how long it takes Toyota to bring a new car to market?
We are now developing a new model vehicle that we target to complete within 12 months," said Kousuke Shiramizu, executive managing director at Toyota.
You know how long it takes Detroit?
That's not a "union" problem, that's a leadership problem.
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Nonsense, everyone knows they pay the janitors $125k a year to design the new cars.
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I think that the time of factory workers getting paid much more than teachers, policemen, paramedics and nurses is coming to an end.
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Whitehawk thanks for the advice. Made use of some of it already. Met them this morning and it looks like they'll keep me for now. Although when contract renewal time comes up, well who knows. In any case, I will move on soonest. I just don't want to leave under a cloud. On the bright side I got a few days off on full pay.
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Toad,
I guess you don't realize that the UAW is heavly involved in the design phase too. Prototyping, tool and die makers etc.. GM has good designs (for the most part), GM falls down in the execution of thier designs. You should tour the protype shop in Warren, Michigan someday. Count how many slobs are sleeping. The slobs sleeping are the good ones, its the ones you don't see that you got to worry about....
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So sleeping tool and die guys in the pattern shop is the reason that GM is producing so many models that no one wants to buy, OK got it!!!!
shamus
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just an example, GM has no control over half its work force
We have an expression, "the inmates are running the asylum." That sums it up.
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Originally posted by Shamus
So sleeping tool and die guys in the pattern shop is the reason that GM is producing so many models that no one wants to buy, OK got it!!!!
shamus
:rofl
Pwned!
Don't forget Ford.
It's those dang tool and die guys! They're screwing up ALL the designs!
Ford, GM Sales Down 23 Percent (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174166,00.html)
But Ford and GM have problems attracting consumers that clearly seem to go beyond any seasonal, short-term issues. They have been bleeding market share to Toyota and other Asian rivals as some of their bread-and-butter vehicles lose appeal on Main Street.
If only we could get the guy that bolts on the bumper to design a better car!
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Regarding skills that America is losing out to high tech job markets, recently I was at a Toro dealer. He had something like 150 lawn mowers in the back waiting for some sort of service. I asked him why the big back log, he said its very difficult to find small engine repairmen these days since all the kids are going after high tech jobs. He's only got 1 mechanic and is in desperate need for more. (shrugs)
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I dont think anyone is saying ford and GM are going under because of unions, just that they are part of the problem. Bad management and bad products that don't apeal to anyone are just as big of a problem.
Without solving all three they are boned.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
IBad management and bad products that don't apeal to anyone are just as big of a problem.
It's the BIGGEST problem.
Ford might produce the "perfectly built" Focus that rolls off the line without a single assembly or paint flaw. GM could do the same with a Malibu.
Neither one will outsell the Camry or the Accord.
Management makes the build decisions. They aren't building what the people want to buy except in a very few market segments. Mostly, they are ceding entire segments to foreign companies through their lack of innovation and lack of vision.
The US still owns the pickup market but look around; that may be about to change too. And it won't have a single thing to do with the UAW. It will have to do with Honda, Toyo and Nissan building what folks really want in a pickup.
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Originally posted by Choocha
We have an expression, "the inmates are running the asylum." That sums it up.
Thats odd, I have heard some of the financial staff at GM say that exact same thing about engineers.
shamus
P.S. you know the "bean counter v car guy thing". They both will blame the hourly guy when the **** hits the fan though.
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If the inmates are running the asylum, what does that say about the quality and capability of the asylum's management?
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Not much managemnt can do when the snake is around thier neck and squeezing.
I spent many of my years comming up with proposials that were not accepted because of "political" reasons i.e. would piss off some union ass****.
I did enjoy, whenever, possible putting them of the street. I luved seeing them go from GM to Taco Bell and then getting fired from Taco Bell cause they couldn't keep up.
LOL...
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At long last we now KNOW the reason why the US car makers can't conceive of, design and build a car that looks, lasts and works as well as a Camry or an Accord, even though they've had 20 years to study the Accords and Camrys.
It's because of the Union ASSEMBLY LINE workers.
Gotcha.
:rofl
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Or could it be that US car engineers are the suxxors and can't match the competition?
:rofl
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Frog,
Read my above post. Salaried workers are paid market rate and held accountable. Hourly workers are paid 3 times thier market rate and not held accountable in any way for thier actions. GM has many problems. Management has made some bone headed decesions, no doubt.
Again, the UAW is involved in the design and engineering of a vehicle from the start. Hell, we still have "Clay Ferries," on staff eventhough clay protoyping is now only done for show. So we have 5 times the number of them required but can't get rid of them because the Union Protects them.
If they were salaried, they would have been gone along time ago (rightfuly so).
Frog, you must be 12 because you keep rendering things down into simple management vs Union when it is infinately more complex than that. But I will say, BAR FAR THE WEAKEST PART OF THE BUSINESS STARTS AND ENDS WITH THE UAW.
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The weakest part of the business is people that don't respect other people.
See your post heading for an example.
The second weakest part is leadership that can't come up with a realistic counter to the Camry or Accord in 20+ years.
No matter how you slice it, the working stiffs only bolt together what the outstanding engineers design and far-sighted and innovative management envision and approve.
Hey... wait a minute.... it could be just that the managers and engineers keep lying to themselves about where to place the true blame. Maybe that's why Detroit continues to lose out to Japanese competition.
Watch that pickup truck segment, the last bastion of Detroit sales... it may be the next to go.
Motor Trend Names 2006 Truck Of The Year (http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2005/112_news051220_truck_of_the_year/)
With two full weeks of thudding over concrete, howling around tight curves and bouncing over rocky roadways, Motor Trend editors unanimously awarded 2006 Honda Ridgeline to be Truck of the Year.
Motor Trend Selects 2005 Truck Of The Year (http://www.trucktrend.com/oftheyear/truck/163_news041215_truckoftheyear/index.html)
“The new Tacoma is a good example of Toyota listening to its customers and delivering the best materials, fit and finish for its price class,” said Angus MacKenzie, editor in chief of Motor Trend. “Buyers get Toyota’s legendary durability and quality in a beautifully built little truck. Proving there is no penalty for buying a reasonably priced, more fuel-efficient truck, especially significant in this time of rising fuel prices, the 2005 Toyota Tacoma is truly deserving of the title of Motor Trend Truck of the Year.”
:rofl
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Nuclear Cars.
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You want to know how dense the management of Ford and GM are? They can't understand why they have almost no market share in Japan.
Would you buy a car in the US if the steering wheel was on the right and all the switch and panel markings were written in Japanese?
Now, I know you're probably thinking, "What? No company could be that stupid to not localize their product..."
They must have cement blocks sitting on their shoulders. If Japanese carmakers were as smart as American carmakers, you wouldn't see a Japanese car on the road.
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Originally posted by Rolex
You want to know how dense the management of Ford and GM are? They can't understand why they have almost no market share in Japan.
Would you buy a car in the US if the steering wheel was on the right and all the switch and panel markings were written in Japanese?
Now, I know you're probably thinking, "What? No company could be that stupid to not localize their product..."
They must have cement blocks sitting on their shoulders. If Japanese carmakers were as smart as American carmakers, you wouldn't see a Japanese car on the road.
Back in 1978 GM had a right hand drive car in production for japan, however the UAW screwed all of them up and put the steering wheel on the wrong side.
The corporation was stuck with 850,000 cars with japanese labeled controls and the wheel on the wrong side...it cost billions!! damned UAW.
shamus
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Originally posted by Choocha
I spent many of my years comming up with proposials that were not accepted because of "political" reasons i.e. would piss off some union ass****.
You were about 7th level wernt you?
shamus
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yep,
contract 1-3
6th 4-6
7th 7-10
Now, work for the Navy and love it. I left on my terms. I miss my friends there...good people. I feel like I gave up my youth for GM. However, I was tired of the backroom deals and coorpution with the Union.
So I work in a place NOW that just gets the ****ING JOB DONE.
NICE
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I dunno, I've followed this thread and read some good points of view ...and some I just dont get.
Some want to fault management and their "greed"...yet look what these UAW types make in pay & benefits. That's a crapload of money.
Others point out that the Asian's are just making cars people want to buy. Be it style, fuel economy, hybrid, etc...they R&D faster than our guys do. Our guys lead the pack in defects and recalls.
I just wish the Unions would skip the "company greed" mantra and take a deep, hard look at what they are getting. Forget the "deserve more" kneejerk, look what the average person makes a year and tell me shoving a button on an assembly line for $40 an hour deserves more?
Management aint perfect, but strangling the future of the company for more seems to be like killing the magic goose.
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My last strike for more pay was so successful I'm voting tonight on a strike for more vacation time, medical insurance and a retirement plan.
I'm stickin it to the man! hell yea!
Rousing Chorus: "Look for the Union label.. "
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Originally posted by LePaul
Some want to fault management and their "greed"...yet look what these UAW types make in pay & benefits. That's a crapload of money.
....Renee Brown works assembling the Camry -- the nation's best-selling car. She puts in seat belts and cup holders at Toyota's plant in Kentucky horse country....
...Brown previously worked as an assistant manager at Dairy Queen, where she made $20,000 annually. Six years ago, she got a job at Toyota.
Now, Brown makes $70,000 a year -- more than twice the average manufacturing wage in the area.
The United Auto Workers have tried to crack the Toyota plant since before it opened. Last spring, they opened their own organizing office just down the road.
But Brown says that Toyota's wages are so close to the union's, she doesn't see the advantage.
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Originally posted by Choocha
However, I was tired of the backroom deals and coorpution with the Union.
Never got tired of the management corruption, greed and ineptitude though, did ya?