Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ChopSaw on March 31, 2006, 02:44:50 PM
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I'm not an advocate of using buffs for JABO, just wondering if it's a real problem.
Many find it annoying and many would like to see a "solution" to the "problem". I've always used buffs to level bomb, so I don't know from experience how effective a buff is when used as a dive bomber. From all I've observed, a level style of bombing is far more effective (i.e. more damage done per trip).
If it isn't as effective as level bombing, is there really anything to gripe about? Shouldn't we just let JABO buffs waste their time? I can remember having a lot of fun shooting them down with Ostwinds. Three of us shot down wave after wave of these guys. They never did get enough ordnance on the target they wanted. The fighter guys seemed to like the low altitude targets too.
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its true! i dont see dive bombing buffs very often, and if i do, they're easy kills. buffs are far more accurate and effective if used properly
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Dive bombing bombers are effective as they are lame.
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Not effective at all. That is why when a base is under attack by GVs you rarely, if ever, see a formation of Lancs roll after someone dies in a jabo a couple times.
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Extremely effective. If it didn't work, you'd have never heard a word about it.
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It's just as easy as dive bombing in a fighter, except you get 20x as many bombs.
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Very effective ...Just try saving a CV from a flock of diving Lancs. dropping 42,000 lbs of bombs :furious As Slash says just as lame too.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Dive bombing bombers are effective as they are lame.
Couldn't agree more.
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I've actually seen people use JU88s in divebombing runs, just how they would be used (actually, a steep drive rather than the traditional invert ad pull back) but more often than not, divebombing buffs miss since they aren't calibrated!
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As someone who defends horded bases alot I see two types of buffs... Those at 15k+ pin-point hitting strats and those under that divebombing strats..There's about an equal number of each, so 50% of all buffs in the air either intend to or decide to dive bomb with them...
Zazen
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Originally posted by PropNut
Very effective ...Just try saving a CV from a flock of diving Lancs. dropping 42,000 lbs of bombs :furious As Slash says just as lame too.
See? That's the point I'm curious about. It takes a flock of dive bombing Lancs to down a CV. I can down two CV's with one formation of B-24's when used as level bombers.
Seems from that, level bombing is far more effective. I know they do, but I can't figure how these guys are getting through a fighter screen and 5" guns. Nobody manning the guns?
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Heck...24's... I got more luck I than deserved one day and dropped a carrier with a tight Ki-67 drop in level bombing right up the stern from 10K.... far as I could tell the CV had no previous damage.
(And before the CV's-too-easy-to-sink crowd comes out....you want to protect a CV?... put up some CAP to protect the thing! An unprotected CV in enemy waters deserves to sink......)
Ju-88's can dive bomb decently. Designed to. B-26's...level bomb...low..., then go a strafing. 67's, 17's, 24's, Lancs.....never try to dive bomb..... I'm accurate enough when level bombing even at high altitude. Too easy if you just follow the basics.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
..... I'm accurate enough when level bombing even at high altitude. Too easy if you just follow the basics.
You're exactly right it is too easy, let's bring back the more complicated calibration procedures...
Zazen
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They don't calibrate, they use the F3 view and drop from there. Ostwinds usually will kill most of them, but they take up to 7 hits sometimes more some times less to kill one buff. Now multiply that times three and you can see that they will usually get the bomb load off.
One well-known low level buff driver, as of this post, is showing 247 kills in B-17s, and 794 deaths in them. That is really effective isn't it?
As stated in other posts, it is a problem if you spend a lot of time on the ground defending bases. A formation of 3 Lancaster’s dropping 42,000 pounds of ordinance to kill one defending ground vehicle using dive and loop tactics happens quite often. I have evaded some of these attacks, but more often than not you can't get out of the range of three 4000-pound bombs no matter how you evade. I can say that I am fair at "Gunning and Running" but you can't get out of the way of three Lancaster’s flying 200 feet off the ground and dropping there entire load to kill ya.
The Ju88 was designed to be a shallow dive-bomber, but the Lancaster’s, B-24s and B-17s (Heavy Buffs) were not. They are the main problem. Why up Jus when I can do the same thing with Lancaster’s with no consequence.
Urchin:
I have seen lots of times when Lancaster’s continue to drop on GV spawns. Then reload and up again and again. It will continue until either one GV or possibly a fly guy kills the ordinance, or Cap is established and maintained. And on the down side, when cap is established, once a few kills are made, the cap usually runs home to "Cash the Kills".
But this is just low level buff work. Not the dive bombing that is the main topic.
Dive Bombing Buffs are just for dweebs that can't hit crap with a jabo. It is like a shotgun verses a sniper rifle. One doesn't take hardly any skill at all to exploit.
2- 1000 lbs. bombs VS. 42,000 lbs. in mixed ords. to kill an Jeep. What would the noob take. :rofl
LTARsqrl <>:aok
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Funny, I know exactly the bomber pielut you're talking about too. I looked up his score just to be sure, and whaddayaknow... He's the perfect example of everything that's wrong with bombers in AH.
BTW, Urchin's being sarcastic. ;)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Funny, I know exactly the bomber pielut you're talking about too. I looked up his score just to be sure, and whaddayaknow... He's the perfect example of everything that's wrong with bombers in AH.
BTW, Urchin's being sarcastic. ;)
Hmmm, does his name mean a large defensive structure? If so that's pretty funny..He is the epitome of the dive bombing buff dweeb...
Zazen
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;)
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I never dive with level-bombers. Sinking a CV with B26's at 8K is no problem.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
See? That's the point I'm curious about. It takes a flock of dive bombing Lancs to down a CV. I can down two CV's with one formation of B-24's when used as level bombers.
Seems from that, level bombing is far more effective. I know they do, but I can't figure how these guys are getting through a fighter screen and 5" guns. Nobody manning the guns?
As another one who defends against hordes a lot, cv guns become more useless the higher the enemy is. A flight of level bombers 3000 AGL (according the the range shown in the 5"gun) is very tough to hit UNLESS they divebomb you, but the bombs glide in for hits even after the bombers are dead. In a fighter the actual height of these same bombers is more like 6000-10000.
IRL early radar showed the height of the enemy giving a CAP time to prepare. Ours doesn't. You have to wait til you visually see the dot (about 10k away) and guess its height. The speed differential between fighters that have to both climb and catch up to the bombers is too narrow to make it a worthwhile defense for a CAP.
Bottom line? Our acks are not capable of enough range and our radar does not give us the true picture making it too easy for the offense.
Simple solution? Harden ALL targets by a factor of at least 4 and make acks killable only by bombs.
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A CAP only tells the enemy where your cv is and cv planes do not have much success against bombers when only armed with machine guns.
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Originally posted by Docc
Simple solution? Harden ALL targets by a factor of at least 4 and make acks killable only by bombs.
silly idea. im all for hardening structures a little more, but the only ones that really need to be hardened IMHO are the field strats like ord and fuel. im fed up of having every front line base being porked by some lame typh pork dork.
you can kill a hardened concrete building with guns lol. crazy. now ack, they shoulnt be hardened really, because the gunner in RL isnt protected...
one cannon round would kill him, so the ack is fine as it is. the real problem is the things like fuel and ord, and maybe harden the hangars just slightly
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Forget real life.........this is a game. We already have a lot of compromises with reality in this game that favor the offense. We need some that favor the defense as well.
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Seems the faster one goes, the more accurate ack becomes. I've been in screaming 450+ dives getting plugged by ack at 90-degrees of deflection. :p
I think being able to get an altitude fix on dar contacts would be a DEFINATE help, and one that WOULD be realistic.
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Originally posted by Pooface
now ack, they shoulnt be hardened really, because the gunner in RL isnt protected...
In RL the ack would be in a dug in, snadbagged position. i.e. protected
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Originally posted by Docc
A CAP only tells the enemy where your cv is and cv planes do not have much success against bombers when only armed with machine guns.
My experience against CV fighters indicates they are actually a little better against bombers than other categories of fighter. The Corsairs are heavily armored and the .50 caliber guns are nothing to sneeze at. Additionally, if you want cannon, the Seafire has two 20mm cannon and the C-hog has 4 of them. Used correctly, any of the CV fighters are more than a match for buffs. You just have to cap around 10-14K and you can intercept most level bombers. Combine it with a lower level CAP for buffs that come in at 4K and you've got a nice fighter screen going. All it takes is 2-4 guys.
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I dont know how hard it would be to fix this,
but if they just made it so your could only drop eggs from the Bombadier position, that will help stop it
excluding the Ju88 and whatever others Bombers did it historicly
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Originally posted by Docc
Forget real life.........this is a game. We already have a lot of compromises with reality in this game that favor the offense. We need some that favor the defense as well.
Actually, I'd consider it a boost for defense if you hardened the "bunkers" (ammo, fuel, troops) a little and brought back 25% minimum fuel at the fields. Make them so that ordnance or a lot more cannon fire is required. Perhaps even make them impervious to fighter guns (mg and cannon) altogether. Only let them be damaged by rockets and/or bombs.
This wouldn't be for emulation of real life so much as an attempt to increase game play by increasing the strategy component of the game.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
In RL the ack would be in a dug in, snadbagged position. i.e. protected
One of the changes made from AH1 to AH2 was to slightly increase the hardness of ack positions. Some speculate this was done to emulate a short wall of sandbags around the guns.
In AH1 you could rake 50's across an ack gun and it'd pop. Now it takes a sustained burst on target or you can rake with cannon.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
One of the changes made from AH1 to AH2 was to slightly increase the hardness of ack positions. Some speculate this was done to emulate a short wall of sandbags around the guns.
In AH1 you could rake 50's across an ack gun and it'd pop. Now it takes a sustained burst on target or you can rake with cannon.
It takes 5 .50 hits on the ack to kill as tested by one of the guys a while back. One or two 20mm rounds in the vacinity does the job. If my memory isn't faulty I believe I have killed one with a pilots .45 also a while back.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
It takes 5 .50 hits on the ack to kill as tested by one of the guys a while back. One or two 20mm rounds in the vacinity does the job. If my memory isn't faulty I believe I have killed one with a pilots .45 also a while back.
Yes, maybe less than 5 .50s. And your guns fire those .50s at least 10 times faster than the ack can......from over 1K out with degree of accuracy of 15 feet (a little saw of the rudder ensures a kill) while one never knows where the ack shell is going due to dispersion built into the game and "realistic" ballistics and 'invisible' tracers.....cannon-armed planes have even more of an advantage...rendering the plane's survivablity much higher than IRL.
Basically, killing an ack in this GAME from 1K out with machine guns is COMPLETELY unrealistic.
And when a single burst of .50s can kill 100% of the manned ack (which is usually more accurate than the AI ack) at a VH or 33% at a large airfield, its no wonder that vulching is so easy and field defense is so poor. IRL there was a lot more than 3 guns shooting at any plane that dived on a field and most were accurate at longer ranges (88s).
I live in field guns in this game, get a lot of kills in them, but die a lot more.
The kills I get are from shooting at planes that are shooting at other acks or objects. If a plane dives specifically on my ack and fires from 1K+, I die 19 out of 20 times which is just plain gameplay for the sake of offense and completely unfair.
The hordes provide more than enough offence if they get their priorities right. Lets add a little defense to counter them.
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Docc:
"its no wonder that vulching is so easy and field defense is so poor. IRL there was a lot more than 3 guns shooting at any plane that dived on a field and most were accurate at longer ranges (88s)"
Yup:aok
WWII fact: More planes were down from AA fire than another plane.
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We seem to have come off topic here and that's okay. It happens with all threads. I just wanted to thank those that gave input in response to the initiating post.
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Effective in capturing? Proly not.
Effective in stoping a fight? YES!
When only 2 FHs are up and there is no capture attemt, there are no osties on the ground (since no enemy plains are vulching or trying to cap). So, diving in and droping, even as you die, will take the last FHs (or the CV) down and stop the fight. Mission acomplished.
If you really want to know how effective they are, ask an expert like 999. Only, he does not really dive bomb the CVs. He flies level over the deck (so technicly it is not dive bombing) and drops his bombs as he dies in the puffy ack. He will die 10 times in a row, but eventually, the CV will go down. Mission acomplished.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Effective in capturing? Proly not.
Effective in stoping a fight? YES!
When only 2 FHs are up and there is no capture attemt, there are no osties on the ground (since no enemy plains are vulching or trying to cap). So, diving in and droping, even as you die, will take the last FHs (or the CV) down and stop the fight. Mission acomplished.
If you really want to know how effective they are, ask an expert like 999. Only, he does not really dive bomb the CVs. He flies level over the deck (so technicly it is not dive bombing) and drops his bombs as he dies in the puffy ack. He will die 10 times in a row, but eventually, the CV will go down. Mission acomplished.
While he may eventually kill the CV, I have to ask myself where the fighter support is. Ten times he comes in?
When I take a CV down it is from a minimum of 8K and is usually 10-14K. With B-24's I can take two CV's in one sortie and still land. Compared to ten sorties for one CV and dying every time? I'd say my method was more effective.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
While he may eventually kill the CV, I have to ask myself where the fighter support is. Ten times he comes in?
When I take a CV down it is from a minimum of 8K and is usually 10-14K. With B-24's I can take two CV's in one sortie and still land. Compared to ten sorties for one CV and dying every time? I'd say my method was more effective.
They are there. why do you think he dies so many times. 5" is useless because it explodes on the friendlies, until he gets close.