Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on January 30, 2001, 04:23:00 PM
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This may sound like heresy coming from a liberal, but I believe it's time to reform public education. I still believe strongly in public education, but for it to survive and thrive, things need changing.
Little background info.... I have a B.S. in Instrumental Music Education. I was a band director in public schools for five years, 1990-1995. Those five years were enough to totally disillusion a man who never wanted to do anything other than be a teacher for the rest of his life. After my fifth year, I was so frustrated and stressed out by my job that I resigned. I won't bore you all with the gory details of my experiences, but they will creep into my arguments about what is wrong with our public school system as it stands now. So, speaking from a teacher's perspective......
Better Teachers: It's too easy to become a teacher. Any mediocrity with half a brain can get a teaching degree. There should be a tough, "bar exam" like test that prospective teachers would have to pass to get their teaching license. This test, of course, should be tailored to the whatever field of education that teacher will teach. In other words, a music educator's test would be different from a science educator's test. The current basic skills test that teachers must pass is a joke.
Pay Teachers as Professionals: Teacher salaries, especially for beginning teachers, is very low compared to other professions. When I started teaching in 1990, my first contract was for $21,000/year. When I left the biz in 1995, I was making almost $28,000. Within a year of quitting teaching and working in the computer industry, I was making over $50,000 with half the responsibilty, and a tenth of the stress. This leads me to my next topic...
Get rid of the Teacher's Unions: As a good little liberal, I am pro-union. But it's my opinion that teachers are actually hurt more by being in a union, than they are helped by them. Teachers should be treated like any professionals, being hired and fired because of their expertise and accomplishment. Currently, it's too difficult to get rid of worthless teachers, and there's no structure in place to reward excellent teachers. No matter how dedicated and hard-working I was, I knew that my salary was only to going go up a small percentage each year, as negotiated for me by my union and the school district. Where is the incentive to perform with this rigid formula in place? There isn't, and that's why so many burned-out teachers are doing a half-assed job of educating our kids. Teachers should make a lot of money, just as any professional would, depending on their education level and experience and ability.
Year Round Learning: The old school schedule of Sept-May is outdated and bad for everyone involved. Teachers and Students should be educating and learning year round, with small breaks in between. In this scenario, nobody can ever say to me again "Yeah, but the reason we pay you teachers like toejam is because you get the summer off". My attitude as a teacher was "Work me like a professional, pay me like a professional".
Let Teachers Teach: Currently, teachers are asked to not only teach, they are asked to coach, be surrogate parents, and be discipline police. Teachers should teach, and let others do the other work. Speaking of discipline....
Restore Discipline: Kids know that teachers can't touch them, and can't discipline them without legal repercussions. Now, I'm not a violent person, and I would never think of throwing unruly kids up against the locker as I saw my teacher do when I was in high school. OTOH, trying to maintain discipline in the classroom sometimes takes more time than actually teaching the subject at hand. What schools need is the ability to remove unruly students that are preventing the educational process from continuing. And teachers need to be able to enforce discipline without legal repercussion, as long as it's within the law.
Parental involvement: Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, promotes a positive educational experience more than an interested, involved parent. Without fail, my students who did well and were not discipline problems were the kids whose parents came to conferences, and were in direct communication with me.
If you've read this far, thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sorry if I rambled on, but I've been meaning to get this off my chest for years.
Most teachers are self-sacrificing people who simply want to help other people. There are indeed some dead weight in the teaching profession, and they need to be weeded out.
With all the talk about how rotten our public education system is, you never hear much from the teachers' perspective. I hope my ideas reach out to Liberals and Conservatives alike. Education should not be about politics. Education should be about learning, and enabling learning. I purposely left out topics like testing and funding, to focus more on what the fundamental problems are as I see it as a teacher.
Kieren, I know you're still in the biz, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.
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Wow, a squaddie of mine got into teaching roughly when you did, was a band instructor just like you, and quit when you did. The stress drove him into a near depresion. And $28k in 1995 is peanuts. Crap job... and yer right, the system should require them to be professionals, get treated like proffesionals, and get paid as professionals.
Still need the summers off though... Travellin' etc. is a pretty good education in itself. And gettin' laid for the first time on a school night... well... just wouldn't be the same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thx for the post. I agree whole heartedly with what you have said. The parental involvement is one of the things I find to be such a joke. Also the discipline issue. I've talked to grad school teachers that spend more time making sure there kids are fed and bathed than teaching. Those kids cry when they have to go home because the teacher cares more for them than their parents. Their parents don't do a thing with them much less get involved with the school. Like you said they can't discipline them or they get in trouble. I got spanked when I was a kid at school by the principle. Then at home by my parents (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I never had a time looking back on it that I didn't deserve it. I know it can be abused but there MUST be a form of capital punishment that will help detour a majority of the kids from acting up in class. Spanking may not be the answer and it certainly wont work in high school very well. I'm sure there are solution that will allow a teacher the proper amount of control over their class room. Unfortunately the parental back up is a MUST in the disciplining and it isn't always there. The parents in a lot of the problem cases can't discipline themselves much less the kids.
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Hehehe, Got news for ya. TOP salary in Tucson for teachers with a MA (which is a requirement for all but starting teacher) is only $30k now in 2001.
Starting salary for me if I were to go into teaching full time with my MA would be $23k for Elementary. I won't even consider middle or high school.
Mav
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Absolutely banana, but I'll go further. We need to reform how we train teachers as well. In high school not too long ago, I was taught English by teachers with no training or interest in literature, "Citizenship" (cough cough) by the football coach, Economics by someone who didn't know what the term meant, Sociology was by someone who didn't know that was a field (she seemed to think the pop-psychology work "I'm OK -- You're OK" qualified), and History by a well-meaning ignoramus. My case is not unique among US Citizens going to public schools.
Why is this the case, if they're looking for people with MAs to teach? Well, they way I understand it, an MA in a certain discipline (like History) permits that person competence to teach High School in that subject and that subject alone. An MA in "Education" is much more versatile, permitting the teacher to crib from textbooks on any subject s/he chooses. Guess who wins in the marketplace?
In many civilized countries, teachers at this level are selected for their specific expertise and scientific training in the field in which they are to teach. In the US, such people are at a disadvantage.
In the end, many of the teachers I've had weren't qualified to be anything but baby-sitters.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-30-2001).]
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Better Teachers:
I can't disagree, but I think you hit it on the head in the preamble. It's a lot of stress for little respect or monetary reward.
Pay Teachers as Professionals:
No doubt this is right. Education is in competition with industry. I can leave teaching right now with the experience I have and be employed in industry, make twice as much, and have more respect. I love what I do and won't; how many people are like me?
Get rid of the Teacher's Unions:
Amen, brother! Our union is a joke, does nothing to protect jobs, and is allied with unions I wholeheartedly disagree with.
Year Round Learning:
I have mixed emotions here. That summer sure helps me avoid burnout, and with my state's requirement that I continue taking classes for the duration of my career (expenses out of my pocket, of course) summer is the best option. I coach, so no, night classes don't work.
Let Teachers Teach:
You're not kidding! Inclusion is the latest thing to hit us. Take a kid, I.Q. of 50, place him in a classroom of 30 kids and let him "socialize" all day. Ok, so his individual educational plan requires that I spend an hour of one-on-one with him in a day, regardless of the needs of other students. They will do ok, right? Wait, I can handle one special needs student, I can certainly handle five... No, this is no joke, happens to me every year. No way I can legally fulfill my job, and my administrators know it.
Restore Discipline:
Our school system is so afraid of being sued they discourage us from even talking sharply to kids, much less even thinking about physical methods. I have sat in so many conferences because some "I don't give a damn" kid smarted off to me and I raised my voice. People have no idea what goes on in public schools- all they see is the TV that says "teachers don't care". Teachers have no control, that has long ago been taken away. We all realize we are one mistake away from losing our jobs.
Parental involvement:
Right again. At conference time we always saw the parents of the kids doing well. We never ever saw the parents of the kids who weren't. Better believe it matters.
Hehe, you knew I would respond.
Here's how I see it: the public wants schools to be more responsive to their (the public's) desires. To that end I think most schools are, but the problem, as we have seen here on the BBS, is how do you ever unify a group of people under a common understanding of what school should or shouldn't be? You literally hear one end of the spectrum to another at any board meeting, believe me. The school system is like a puppet, with everyone pulling on the strings. It is a recipe for disaster.
Even with all that, I can't see myself doing anything else. In my little room, in my small corner of the cosmos, I feel I accomplish something, and I feel students learn. The money isn't important to me. I was made to teach. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 01-30-2001).]
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banana,
I hate to tell you that, but with those views, the libs will kick you out of their club in no time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am as anti-socialist/liberal as you can find, but I completely agree with your post. You have cerrectly identified what the problem is, the question is how to solve it. The libs in a government and the teacher unions will never allow any significant change. They'd lose too much power.
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Good points, banana. I agree with you on almost all points (think teachers should get summer off - teaching kids is pretty exhausting). Who needs vouchers - just allow teachers to do their jobs well, and unimpeded.
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Restore Discipline
For a science teacher all that's required is a shotgun.
"Alright class, since David is being an unruley love muffin we're going to see the results of a basic chemical-thermal reaction. The expanding gasses will propel a given mass a certian distance. Oops, my fault; we're supposed to be studying human anatomy..."
BLAM!
"Now this is how the human digestive tract works, you can thank David's parents for this exciting and very life-like model..."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Ugh
My oldest brother got a MA in math and physics and is teaching gymnasium students here. His salary is quite decent; around the middle of the spectrum.
Students are well behaved and in general interested.
Sounds like teachers have an uphill battle in the the US :/
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Teacher shortage in FL. One district had over 200 quit last year alone (Public school system).
Better salaries and better students would go along way. How can they stay motivated when they are trying to teach kids who do not want to learn for such low $$$$?
Vouchers I believe, in the long run, would create a need for additional schools (private, semi-private) which would require additional teachers which would require higher salaries to keep them. The kids would want to learn as they'd see a monthly check being sent to their school, hopefully also requiring them to wear uniforms and improve discipline, both from the school and the student.
Eagler
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Refreshing posts banana and Kieren, hopefully my faith in public education can be restored before both my kids attend a public school.
(One is in a Christian Pre-school, 2nd year, he starts Kindergarten next year, however we're torn between the decision of public or private schooling...)
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I know it can be abused but there MUST be a form of capital punishment that will help detour a majority of the kids from acting up in class.
Hehe, I think you meant "Corporal Punishment" Jim. I do admit, however, times when I would've been tempted to use some form of "Capitol Punishment" on a few of my students! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mietla, I don't belong to any club, and I could care less about what other liberals think of my views on teaching. Even though I now work a white collar job, I have blue collar roots, and I'll always consider myself to be a liberal at heart. But my definition of a Liberal might not be what your definition of a Liberal is.
The difference between me and a rock ribbed Republican, or a die hard Democrat, is that I think independently on each issue. I don't cow tow to the party line. IMHO, we'd get a lot more done in this country if more people would try that.
Kieren, I don't know about you, but the thing that frustrated me the most about teaching was dealing with student apathy toward learning. I could deal with the jokesters, the smart-asses and the rebels. But the combat against apathy was too much for me.
I don't think vouchers is the way to tackle this problem. There needs to be a whole paradigm shift in thought by society, and that could take awhile. The way schools are funded needs to change. Right now, in Minnesota, schools are funded mostly by people's property tax within the district boundaries. The state and federal government kicks in the rest. But when it comes time to try to raise more money, the districts have to go to the community for a bond levy or referendum. That directly affects the amount of property tax that the people in the community pays. And you can imagine how often these types of things fail at the voting booth. Everyone wants to have the best education for their kids, but nobody wants to see thier property tax go up. Governor Ventura(hehe, I love living in Minnesota) wants to abolish property tax and have the state pick up the tab for education. I don't know if that would work, but I bet it would be popular among homeowners!
Hey, maybe if some president appointed me Secretary of Education, I could get the job done? I can see it now..."President Jones has appointed some banana to be the next Secretary of Education...."
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Timely post! I'm starting to hope that we might see some change in education since it is one of Bush's priorities. I believe the problems in education are the biggest, most important challange we face as a nation today. I'm so relieved that the president considers this to be an important issue.
As far as I'm concerned, the responsibility for the current sad state of education in this country falls directly on us, the parents of the children. This actually goes to the concept of personal responsibility. I really wonder how there could be a difference of opinion between liberals and conservatives on this issue...
Gunthr
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From banana
I don't think vouchers is the way to tackle this problem. There needs to be a whole paradigm shift in thought by society, and that could take awhile. The way schools are funded needs to change. Right now, in Minnesota, schools are funded mostly by people's property tax within the district boundaries. The state and federal government kicks in the rest. But when it comes time to try to raise more money, the districts have to go to the community for a bond levy or referendum. That directly affects the amount of property tax that the people in the community pays. And you can imagine how often these types of things fail at the voting booth. Everyone wants to have the best education for their kids, but nobody wants to see thier property tax go up. Governor Ventura(hehe, I love living in Minnesota) wants to abolish property tax and have the state pick up the tab for education. I don't know if that would work, but I bet it would be popular among homeowners!
This is pretty much the problem here in Indiana, too.
As far as vouchers are concerned... I see two sides. On the one hand it is good to have competition in any business, but I am not sure that this is what would really happen.
Anything subsidized by tax dollars is subject to public scrutiny. That is as it should be, but we have come to the point where public scrutiny is so invasive it hinders education. Just about any change can be effected by an individual with a loud enough voice, and that is plain wrong. Public schools face this now; private schools will too when enough people take their vouchers and throw the money into the private school coffers. You can bet those parents will let the schools know who is footing the bill ASAP. In the long haul the private schools will have to bend to the wishes of the customer, or they will lose money.
Sounds good? Think again. Parent comes in and says "Pull this book off your library shelf, or I take my kids out of your school!" Now the private school has to decide if their principles are more important than the money. Private schools are businesses, I don't need to tell you what will happen. It winds up being a situation where you bend, bend, bend to the point that compromise is impossible. You have to make a choice, and someone is going to be angry.
I agree, we need a complete revamp from the factory paradigm, but for the life of me I don't know what mass-produced system is better. Undoubtedly lower student-teacher ratios help (as in the home-school situations, when done properly) but the public seems unwilling to fund that possibility.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 01-31-2001).]
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Very interesting thread here. From an historical perspective, I'm wondering exactly when (in terms of years) things started going to hell in American public education, and what were the causes. I've got my own theories, but I'd be interested to hear from the educators out there as to what the view within their profession is.
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Apathetic kids are a problem, for sure. This is where the motivational side of the game comes to play. Even then there are some that will remain unaffected by anything you do. People do fall between the cracks, and that will always be so. The trick to staying alive in the game for me is to understand that I have to satisfy myself that I have done everything humanly possible to make the situation work for a student. After that they are accountable for their end of the bargain.
Here's a true story for you... this sounds made up it is so ridiculous, but sadly it is true... I had a conference with the parent of a child who was failing in my elementary class. The mother showed up drunk, I mean literally slobbering, rolling out of her chair reeking of Jack Daniels drunk. She was upset that I was singling her son out for persecution, and that I wasn't giving him a chance.
Now mind you, I had never raised my voice, said anything critical to him in front of the class, nothing of the kind.
"But ma'am, he is failing because he won't turn his work in."
"Right! You are embarrassing him by making him walk up to your basket and turn work in every morning!"
"Ma'am, all the students do this. They come in in the morning, put away their coats, dig out their work, and place it in the basket. The basket is in the back of the room, so no one is singled out."
"Can't you give him a break!?"
"I would love to. He can still do the work and turn it in, that's all I ask."
"See!? You are singling him out! Give him a break!"
That is an extreme example to be sure, but that kind of thing happens more often than you may think. Some of my other favorites include the mother of the 14-year-old failing 5th grade student who looked me in the eyes and said "School doesn't matter, she's gonna quit at 16 and make babies.", or the dad who was going to sue me because I was not allowing his daughter to play on the basketball team- she had failed 5 of 7 classes, all with his full knowledge. Another clear-cut case of discrimination on my part....
The sad thing is that these people even had their ridiculous arguments heard, and that I was pulled from a classroom full of students to hear them. It is depressing when you look at those moments too hard...
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 01-31-2001).]
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We have a huge shortage of Science and Maths teachers over here. The government has decided to offer £6000 ($9000) to people who enter training (the fees of which are free), and another £6000 on completion. I almost considered it (I have an MSc in Applied Physics and might get even more incentives), but I think to be a good teacher you have to be passionate about it. In a similar way to the medical profession. I don't possess that desire to teach.
Graduates can earn far more outside of teaching. I just took a temporary contract with a company for £18,000 a year to do some environmental analysis. I have a friend who works for Anderson Consulting earning £30,000 a year. Another works in the IT industry earning a huge amount. We all graduated last July, and earn more than my mate's girlfriend who has been teaching for a year. I think that is unfair.
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I'm wondering exactly when (in terms of years) things started going to hell in American public education, and what were the causes.
When: The 1960s and early 70s, when the "me" generation vomited its hippy liberalism.
Causes: The mass media ate that vomit like a starving dog and has been regurgitating it every since.
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Originally posted by jihad:
I'm wondering exactly when (in terms of years) things started going to hell in American public education, and what were the causes.
BUSING!
Lowered all learning to the same sub standard level.
Eagler
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Originally posted by banana:
Mietla, I don't belong to any club ...
The difference between me and a rock ribbed Republican, or a die hard Democrat, is that I think independently on each issue.
That is clear from your post, I was only pulling your chain <S>
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As someone who spent time in a private school, I believe that going to a private school system of some sort would be a benefit.
Yes, it would have to be regulated, but I can't see any other way to do it. Despite the well-meaning cries of the left, there is only one motive that drives any organization to be effective and efficient, and that motive is profit.
Some sort of a regulated private school system is the best way to go IMHO.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Good post banana (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I read it at work and I agree with all of it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I went to public school for most of my school career except for 7th and 8th grades when I went to a great private school in Houston. Public school was a joke and a waiste of my time. I learned more in my 2 years in private school than the 4 years following. My first year of high school was review from what I had learned in the 7th grade. I got bored in the 10th-11th and ended up dropping out, best move I ever made. I had my GED b4 I should have graduated. There is no doubt in my mind that I could have passed the GED b4 I went to high school.
Anything that will get kids out of large overpopulated inner city schools is a good thing. I heard on the radio that in LA they pay something like $9,000 to $10,000 a year per student. Everybody should be making 99.999% scores for that money. That's abhorent, and should not be tollerated by anybody. I only hope that our politicians can do like you banana and keep the politics out of our education system.
S! banana, thanks for the "non" devisive post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 01-31-2001).]