Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on April 01, 2006, 09:31:19 AM
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buff crews were able to transfer ammo can we have that option too? no more ammo loaded just ability to transfer it to the current gunner position?
say make it take a few minutes and you cant fire your guns for during the transfer?
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Well yes and no... Maybe some were able to, but it wasn't fast, it wasn't easy. Most in the B17 and B24 (the 2 most common bombers in this game now) were in large storage bins/lockers/whatever that were simply not easy to open, pull out ammo, and lug hundreds of pounds of bullets to another gun, open its locker and then link that ammo with another. And what if that ammo locker is full?
Ammo exchange was something done during lulls in the fight. Between point A and point B. In AH I can just see this being abused SO badly..... Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly. Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly, repeat 10,000 times and never move from the tail gun position.
I'm not for this idea at all. In fact, one might say I'm against it.
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We have a delay when you are rearming on hotpads and this delay could be upped to a minute or three in bombers to replicate the time it took to shift the ammo around.
The peanut gallery is interested.
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You can't really reload a formation of buffs, and takeoff with all three again.
Or am I wrong?
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i like the idea
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Good point, Krusty. Maybe go for Fester's idea but make the time delay have to occur while out of icon range of enema?
culero
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Krusty is wrong. The 50 cal boxes where heavy, but not so heavy they couldnt be moved around...easily no less. With the flip of one latch, the box was open, the ammo belt was pulled out and being loaded very fast. It was not "hundreds of pounds" per box either.
IIRC the belts where already hanging out of the boxes, which had handles on them so they could be moved around easily and loaded.
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(http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/ea_1.jpg)
Yeah, that looks very hard to lug around Krusty. You'd have to be a whole 90 lbs to pick this up full of ammo. :rolleyes:
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That's not the type you find on a B17. You might find that on an M2 on a jeep or something.
The ones I've seen photos of in B17s are the size of a large PC tower case, mounted to the wall, with a flip-top lid. The way you get ammo in and out is to remove the lid and lay the ammo chains in (like feeding them into a P51 wing, think of it that way).
EDIT:
Not to mention that in ww2 bombers the ammo chains are fed through long feeding tubes to the guns themselves. If you were entirely out (or at least there wasn't any left in the box, it was all in the feed tube) you could not attach more rounds to the end of the chain.
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Example:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1143934601_image020.jpg)
Example:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1143934575_b-17g_waist_looking_fwd.jpg)
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The type of box Morph showed was on early B-17's and in 25's and that ilk. They were replaced with large phenolic containers later on. The pics shown by Krusty are very interesting in that they show wooden type containers, which I have seen, but were not the standard factory locations for the ammo. Specifically the RH and LH waist guns both had ammo positions to their aft of the window located at eye level.
As for moving ammo around in flight. It was done, although I am sure the biggest pain was linking the belts together (or did they wait until they were empty?) As for linking it together to another belt.... I doubt they'd do it as the feed chutes are a pain in the arse as is the concept of emptying a belt outta the gun's can, and connecting it to another then having to try and put it all back in while tooling along in a bouncing bomber.
Who knows. I am in favor, but their needs to be a delay, and the out of icon range thing sounds good, OR just make it so ALL the buffs guns can not fire until the reload is complete.
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Originally posted by Krusty
..... Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly. Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly, repeat 10,000 times and never move from the tail gun position.
....
Well, I sense a smidge of exaggeration here, as I would think you would designate what gunner position to transfer the ammo from.. say, Right Waist, Nose, Upper.. ect.. which would limit the transfers to being from up to 5 other gunner positions..
Even then... if you're worried about the guy being able to sit in the tail and hammer incoming time after time after time.. I have visualizations of a scene from, I think, Mom and Dad Save the World where the idiot soldiers were 'attacked' by a grenade that said 'Don't pick me up'.. at which one of the soldiers would pick it up.. it would kill them.. then the next guy would pick it up.. and it would kill them... etc...
Or was it Spaceballs?
Either case.. if the enemy keeps coming in on 6, they deserve to die. Especially if they're dodging debris from their countrymen..
A delay would be appropriate. A minute or so.. Would be real nice if there were documented examples of how long it really took. I'm sure the ammo containers were relatively portable, as there are several documented events of crews dumping all guns and ammo overboard to reduce weight..
Now, if a gunner position is disabled, does that include the ammo? Or would that have to be modelled on the damage report?
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Wishlist (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151699)
http://www.thehewitt.net/sam.html (http://www.thehewitt.net/sam.html)
Sam Hewitt 15th Air Force WWII POW
"By now, because of the loss of so many ships (B-17s) that were behind us, we found ourselves to be in the unenviable position of "tail end Charlie"! The battle was now approaching two hours, which for an air battle was rare. Our tail gunner had run out of ammunition and came up to where I was (top turret) to get some of what I had left."
http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/b24a.html (http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/b24a.html)
George R. Insley
Brief Bio:
George R. Insley …major theater of wartime operations was in Europe (ETO), from September 1943 to July 1945, with the 66th and 506th Squadrons, 44th Bomb Group, 2nd Air Division, 8th Air Force, based in Shipdon, England. He flew a total of 48 combat missions and was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross with one star and 8 Air Medals.
"There we were, two groups, one a B-17 group and one a B-24. When the fighters showed up the B-24 leader slid our formation in under the B-17 group, for more protection as well as for more defense against the fighters. So where did they attack? Yes right in my corner, low left and last. You can see why they called it Purple Heart Corner. My tail gunner, George Federlin shot up all of his ammo and the waist gunner took more ammo to him."
Best Regards,
Cement
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Who knows. I am in favor, but their needs to be a delay, and the out of icon range thing sounds good, OR just make it so ALL the buffs guns can not fire until the reload is complete.
A delay is fair enough for the ammo to show up as being there.
BUT -
Why out of icon range?
I'm sure they didn't wait for the con to disengage before doing it during WW2.
All guns can't fire? -
Only the guns the ammo was being transferred from shouldn't be able to fire, the rest should be able to carry on.
A short pause on the gun that the ammos being transferred to should happen to simulate the reload.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That's not the type you find on a B17. You might find that on an M2 on a jeep or something.
The ones I've seen photos of in B17s are the size of a large PC tower case, mounted to the wall, with a flip-top lid. The way you get ammo in and out is to remove the lid and lay the ammo chains in (like feeding them into a P51 wing, think of it that way).
EDIT:
Not to mention that in ww2 bombers the ammo chains are fed through long feeding tubes to the guns themselves. If you were entirely out (or at least there wasn't any left in the box, it was all in the feed tube) you could not attach more rounds to the end of the chain.
WWII AAF B-17 B-24 M2 .50 Ammunition Box
These are .50 caliber machine gun ammo boxes used early in the war on B-17, B-24 and several other aircraft. These are brand new and in the original shipping box. The boxes are worn (see image) but the ammo boxes are in good condition however. They are Type O-1 Specification No. 93-24673, Assembly Dwg. No. 35 D 3891, Order No. 43-18410-P, THE BRUNHOFF MFG. CO. Boxes holds appx. 40 rounds. $20.00
(http://www.warbirdrelics.com/images/ammo_box.jpg)
B-17 Sperry Turret M2 Machine Gun Ammo Box
Left hand ammo box for upper B-17 Sperry turret. It is made of galvanized metal and was spot welded together. It has the rollers intact though one is showing signs of corrosion. One end is stenciled in red POINTS (shows arrow on direction of loading) USE M2 LINKS. The side is also stenciled in red and reads LOAD AMMUNITION THUS FOR L.H. GUN (has arrows showing direction for loading). $85.00
(http://www.warbirdrelics.com/images/ammo.jpg)
Oh, you can buy em here
http://www.warbirdrelics.com/armament.htm (http://www.warbirdrelics.com/armament.htm)
It would seem each position had its own particular type of ammo box.
so depending on which one it was you were trying to load the difficulty of reloading would change.
Here is an ammo box for the belly gunner.
Sorry. this one not for sale lol
(http://www.astory.com/aircraft/armament/3565.JPG)
Im not what one would call a buff driver. I do on occasion but the time I spend in buffs is very rare
I am not at all adverse to this idea so long as there is a re-arm delay similar to what we have on the re-arming pad.
IT has its advantages as well as its drawbacks.
While being able to have more ammo per gun per flight would be available.
Imagine that sick feeling you will get when caught in the middle of re-arming you suddenly see that 190 you missed boring down opn you
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Thanks Dred, I was too lazy to reply to him. The know-it-all, knows it all, even when he doesnt have a clue. I just dont have time to waste on people like him.
Edit: As for reload.... I've seen some guys reload a BMG in the blink of an eye at some MG shoots. If your life depended on getting that 50 loaded or getting blown out of the sky by some Nazi fighter, betcha you're going to hustle it and load that 50 as fast as humanly possible. A 30-45 second delay seems good to me. As it is now, we can pull a fighter in for a Nascar style pit stop and be off in 30 seconds flat. I dont think I've read much about WW2 fighters being refuled and remared in 30 seconds with engine on. (What Im getting at is its a game)
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Thanks Dred, I was too lazy to reply to him.
]
Google was my friend...for a change;)
oh, and the ball turret had two of these babies
(http://www.birkbinnard.com/photography/warbirds/images/B17G-14.jpg)
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Thanks Dred, I was too lazy to reply to him. The know-it-all, knows it all, even when he doesnt have a clue. I just dont have time to waste on people like him.
HAH.. That's rich, from you.
I've never seen any image of a B17 that uses that small 50-round canister. Every image I've ever seen is huge canisters bolted to the walls. I've seen quite a few B17 interior pics. I've even posted a couple. I think I'm justified in my response.
So stuff it.
EDIT: I didn't think it was possible for the tail gunner to get to the dorsal gunner's position. He has his own external hatch to get in, and the tail gear is between him and the rest of the plane.
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Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: I didn't think it was possible for the tail gunner to get to the dorsal gunner's position. He has his own external hatch to get in, and the tail gear is between him and the rest of the plane.
My turn to dogpile ( my preferred search engine.. http://www.dogpile.com )
Get a load of THIS link!!
Tail Gunner Bio (http://www.geocities.com/milbios/ecarsonbio.html)
Special note..
"Then came the unexpected; someone cut us off. We had to go around to avoid a collision with the other aircraft. The situation was still under control until we lost engine number two. There was no way we could continue to fly on one engine. I had moved from the tail to the radio room. When I looked out all I could see was the lights in those adobe buildings getting closer each second. The crew from up front had joined us in the radio room and assumed crash positions. Captain Train managed to belly land going up the side of a hill. It doesn't take much to persuade men to move quickly to get out of a crashed aircraft. Eight of us exited through the radio room hatch. The pilot and copilot, both big men, squeezed out of the side cockpit windows just as engine number three burst into flames. Our engineer, looking out for his airplane, as he always did, reentered through the waist door, obtained a fire extinguisher and put out the fire. No one was injured but Julie A was now only fit for spare parts. I guess sometimes even a milk run can be dangerous. "
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I wonder how??
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I like this ammo transfer idea a lot. Transfer ammo from a dead gun to a live one or from a relatively unused gun (such as the nose gun) to other guns.
I can see a time delay being necessary, say the same 30 second delay as on the rearm pads. However, I’m not sure I see the necessity of disabling any of the guns while the transfer takes place.
Neat idea overall.
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Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: I didn't think it was possible for the tail gunner to get to the dorsal gunner's position. He has his own external hatch to get in, and the tail gear is between him and the rest of the plane.
That is incorrect Krusty. The tail gunner has an extra hatch, which is about a third the size of the rar entry hatch. It was placed there for an emegency, in the knowledge that it can be a tight squeeze past the tail gear in an airplane bouncing all over the sky. Sadly for many tail gunners, it was rare for them to easily get in and out of the small tail gun hatch on the ground with out a parachute, and even impossible for many with a chute on.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well yes and no... Maybe some were able to, but it wasn't fast, it wasn't easy. Most in the B17 and B24 (the 2 most common bombers in this game now) were in large storage bins/lockers/whatever that were simply not easy to open, pull out ammo, and lug hundreds of pounds of bullets to another gun, open its locker and then link that ammo with another. And what if that ammo locker is full?
Ammo exchange was something done during lulls in the fight. Between point A and point B. In AH I can just see this being abused SO badly..... Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly. Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly, repeat 10,000 times and never move from the tail gun position.
I'm not for this idea at all. In fact, one might say I'm against it.
There is a book called Combat Crew by John Comer, he was friends with someone in supply on the squadron they were on and they would regularly max out on ammo, a figure that comes to mind is 16,000 rounds of ammo *dont quote me on that, it is years since i read it!*
They would distribute it in flight because they had to stack it near the CG at takeoff. One time they loaded up and the waist/tailgunner stacked the ammo boxes near their stations shifting the CG rear, nearly made them crash on takeoff because the pilot couldnt get the tail up. They did the first Schweinfurt raid and were pretty much the only bomber in their squadron with ammo by the end of it, the LW coulda just lined up behind them and shot them all down at will if they had realised they were defenceless.
It is a very good book, recommended.
I have been in a 17, you can get down to the tailgun position from waist, but it is a squeeze - i found even up to the waist position very tight too.
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Furbie.
When I was working in Florida years ago with a guy named Dallas Jacobs, he used to tell us stories about his crew (he flew 67 missions in the 17) stacking bricks (from rubble left over on their airbase) in the rear of the aircraft which they promptly began throwing out as soon as they crossed into enemy territory. Apparently they got over zealous on one mission and stacked over a ton of the damn things onboard and the he had a hell of a time saving it on takeoff!
Kinda amazing when you think about it.
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:rofl
bet it was an idea from the pub one night after a few beers...
"HEY GUYS! I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!"
Reminded me of one funny thing in that book combat crew... the bombadier has the ****s one day after a heavy night on the drink the night before. He could have got off the mission sick but didnt want to get one behind the rest of the crew. So he goes along, go in the ammo can while flying and throw it over the krauts! great idea! except when he goes to throw it out, the slipstream blew it back in and all over the navigator.
bet that was a fun 3-4 hour flight home :lol
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oh... my... god...
I don't know whether to laugh or vomit!
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Furbie,
I met several 38 pilots last year at a meeting of sorts, and anyways, one of them was telling a story about how his wingies got him one time. Anyways, the guy had to pee real bad, and they were still over enemy territory. Anyways, he let his buds know, and proceeded to get his tally whacker out of his gear to use the relief tube. Well apparently his buddies were waiting for him to stop fidgeting around, and get started peeing. When they noticed that, one of them yelled "BREAK" and the poor guy broke thinking he had an enemy fighter on his butt. He ended up peeing all over himself, and at the alt they were at, it froze quite quick... until he came in for landing. He said none of his buds would own up to who did it!