Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: soupcan on April 01, 2006, 08:04:43 PM
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all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
say aye
aye!
:aok
then again what would happen to the BB?:O
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Originally posted by soupcan
all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
say aye
aye!
:aok
then again what would happen to the BB?:O
I'm not sure if that is such a good idea, the griefers, left with noone's fun to watermelon on may adopt even more anti-social behavior. I'd hate to see all these little frustrated sociopaths walking into day care centers and unloading with semi-automatic rifles to grief the 'fun' of life they sorely lack instead the fun of fighter pilots in AH...
Zazen
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I think it might be an interesting idea to try. It would be a way to make more people happy without the flame war suggesting separate arena's seems to generate. It'd also be nice to chill some of the angst generated griefers.
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Agreed... maybe add TT/FT way the hell off in the corners of the map, away from the "war" so the toolshedding "win teh war!!!!!" crowd can ignore it, and fight like-minded people.
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I think the only way it would truely work is if they disabled bombers. You'd still have the guy who insist on bombing the bases "just because he can". Much like the donut fighter town.
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disable ord and troops at FT bases. make the fields at FT grass strips instead of runways!
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No just kill FT!!!!!!!
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Nay.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I think the only way it would truely work is if they disabled bombers. You'd still have the guy who insist on bombing the bases "just because he can". Much like the donut fighter town.
Form a fighter alliance just to go around killing the ord and troops. Much like how alliances are formed when a certain country takes a base in FT.
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Nay
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I think the only way it would truely work is if they disabled bombers. You'd still have the guy who insist on bombing the bases "just because he can". Much like the donut fighter town.
in my suggestion i said "diasable ORDs at these bases"
which effectively gets rid of not only heavy buffs but also any
jabo pilots who feel they can still/must ruin fightertown.
the surrounding it with very high mountains (100k for example)
stops any outsiders from geting in.
go fightertown and tanktown!:aok
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wow only 10 posts and already 2 nays and 1 "kill FT"
if u nay sayers can give me 1 good reason why there shouldn't
be a tanktown and fightertown i might understand your postion.
otherwise i will have to side with "furballers" and say you are
just griefers.:huh
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i like it :)
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Originally posted by soupcan
if u nay sayers can give me 1 good reason why there shouldn't
be a tanktown and fightertown i might understand your postion.
You'll die from holding your breath waiting for this to happen.
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:confused: if any suggestion on FT or TT was implemented it would kill this forum :D
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NAY!!!!!! If you want an absolute FT go to the DA.
I personally don't bomb FT except when the rooks seem to want to VULCH and take the Bish base, then they deserve all the bombs I can take over there.
Any way this is a null post HT will never allow such an untouchable FT/TT to exsist in the MA, I believe he has said so, not in these words but similar ones.
I THE KING OF ILK WILL ALWAYS BOMB THOSE THAT HAVE NO HONOR!!!!!:D
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Originally posted by Flayed1
NAY!!!!!! If you want an absolute FT go to the DA.
I personally don't bomb FT except when the rooks seem to want to VULCH and take the Bish base, then they deserve all the bombs I can take over there.
Any way this is a null post HT will never allow such an untouchable FT/TT to exsist in the MA, I believe he has said so, not in these words but similar ones.
I THE KING OF ILK WILL ALWAYS BOMB THOSE THAT HAVE NO HONOR!!!!!:D
Im so sick of people comparing the DA to a FT. DA is for DUELING. ALL THE PLANES ARE ENABLED. THERE ARE NO PERKS. The layout is insane...its really not made for massive furballs.
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BigR said...
Im so sick of people comparing the DA to a FT. DA is for DUELING. ALL THE PLANES ARE ENABLED. THERE ARE NO PERKS. The layout is insane...its really not made for massive furballs.
Only because no one has stepped up and made a new DA map or even a massive number of players going in there and trying it out. If all the planes are enabled then why do you need perks or even worry about them? I for one would be willing to join a hundred or so others in there to see how the DA works out as a fighter arena.
In another game I played a long time ago (Fighter Ace 2) they had a Fighters Arena with air starts that was immensely popular with 5 bases to fly from and you randomly spawned over different ones so it kept it fluid. They had this with "Arcade" mode and "Full Real" mode as well. The arcade mode was the most popular but I don't think I ever saw less than 75 people in the full real room at one time during peak hours.
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Originally posted by soupcan
wow only 10 posts and already 2 nays and 1 "kill FT"
if u nay sayers can give me 1 good reason why there shouldn't
be a tanktown and fightertown i might understand your postion.
otherwise i will have to side with "furballers" and say you are
just griefers.:huh
Ah-Ha...another of those " agree with me or else" people. I don't bomb TT or FT ( I think that's the made up definition of a griefer on here ). I have taken fighters into TT because great furballs develop at low-level on a couple maps & it suits my favorite plane also because I hate losing gv's to bombs & heavy low-level planes are easy targets for pay-back.
"Any way this is a null post HT will never allow such an untouchable FT/TT to exsist in the MA, I believe he has said so, not in these words but similar ones."
I think HT's position on this point has been made clear as stated above & it's the only " 1 good reason " I need to say....Nay. It's my opinion & if you don't like it...don't read a thread that is likely to have peoples individual opinions posted.:aok
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I think any future maps should have both a TT and FT incorporated in them somewhere. And out of the way somewhere, surrounded by 30k mtns. Also make them a tad smaller. As far as it taking people away from the MA capture thing, those type of players usually arent all that interested in that part of the game anyway, and other than shooting a few planes down, usually dont carry ord or participate in the capture.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
Form a fighter alliance just to go around killing the ord and troops. Much like how alliances are formed when a certain country takes a base in FT.
Do you really want that to happen? It would effect people that have nothing to do with the furballer vs retard war, and could not care less about it.
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Originally posted by soupcan
all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
That would be, in effect, a seperate arena which the furbyallers say they don't want. They want to play in the MA without interference from guys playing in the MA.
That, and a seperate furball arena would be dead in a week.
Oh, Nay!
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If they do a FT you will fun into one serious problem. People will CAP the field and vulch. In nights where one side has the greater normally rooks lately I dont know about yall but I wouldnt go there. Now if they did something like make the AAA indestructable and more dealdy I would consider it.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Ah-Ha...another of those " agree with me or else" people.
what? where does it say agree or else?
i am very interested to learn what it is that people
are so afraid will happen to the MA if fightertown were to exist.
if hitechs position on this issue were to change in favor of fightertown
would your position change too?
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AYE:aok
Let's face it - it sucks to get evicted from TT or FT by a countries Fun Police.
"Get more Subscriptions - Stop the Evictions!"
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Originally posted by soupcan
Originally posted by Brenjen
Ah-Ha...another of those " agree with me or else" people.
what? where does it say agree or else?
i am very interested to learn what it is that people
are so afraid will happen to the MA if fightertown were to exist.
if hitechs position on this issue were to change in favor of fightertown
would your position change too?
Well; I posted that as a response to the "then your just griefers" remark. I apologize if you were offended, but; just becasue I don't want what has been outlined does not mean that I am a griefer ( made up internet slang is a burr under my saddle too but that's a different thread ). Fighter town does exist, if you don't want buffs bombing down the hangars, run a c.a.p. it's boring I know...I don't like to climb forever & fly c.a.p. either but that's the closest thing to a cure. I have a great idea...if realism is what some of the people are after & some of the other people want un-bombable gv's & structures....how about Hi-Tech installing a random wheather generation code? It's not always sunny in real life. MYSELF...I like the game o.k. pretty much the way it is; I would like to see more models to play with ( Panther Tanks ) & more maps & any changes to make the game more like being there in real life are cool with me; but then again if HTC decides they aren't ever going to change another thing, that's fine too.
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Fighter Town and Tank Town on each map. These "towns" to be unreachable by those spawning outside the towns. Create a slightly modified version of current fields (vehicle base and airfield) in which there is no ordnance, fuel, bomber hangers or troops. Put these modified fields in their respective towns. That doesn't separate out anyone and it would allow those who wish it to battle to their hearts content without being griefed by those who simply get off on griefing or who are trying to pad their scores.
I don't believe I've ever seen HT write he's opposed to this idea. Nor has anyone referenced a thread in which he posts against this idea and I haven't seen anyone quote him as being against this idea. What I have seen is he's opposed to a different arena, which this would not be.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Well; I posted that as a response to the "then your just griefers" remark.
i do realize now that i could have used a better choice of words
for the above and i apologize if this annoyed u....
guess i had just finished reading the "kill FT" post
and thought that sounded like "griefing" (sorry for the term
couldnt think of one at moment to replace it)
Myself i am a base capture kinda guy (for the most part)
i really love all aspects of this game and cant see how a fightown/tanktown
will hinder the enjoyment of the game.
no hard feelings here Brenjen
and thank you for pointing out how my language could have been
offensive to others.
btw i like your weather idea:aok
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it wouldn't hurt MA at all and would soon be used by very few as it would get boring very quick, or at least often and most would hop back into the normal MA fray...quickly or often. That's what she said..:D
What would hurt is the time it would take to be designed instead of those resources being used to get ToD done!
Bet those WW2 Aces wish they could have called a no bombers rule!:lol :lol
my 2cents.
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Just make the Donut FT bases UNCAPTURABLE. ONLY WAY to end of this.
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Originally posted by soupcan
no hard feelings here Brenjen
and thank you for pointing out how my language could have been
offensive to others.
btw i like your weather idea:aok [/B]
:aok No hard feelings here either :aok
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soupcan said:
all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
Nay!
I oppose having TTs and FTs on maps because they go against the purpose of the MA (assuming it has one). Basically, the MA is there for all the team effort stuff, even if that boils down to the usual porkdweeb/landgrab BS. But that's why it supports many hundreds of players instead of just 64.
What happens when you have a TT/FT area is that one side or the other will gravitate there instead of fighting the war, with the result that it gets reset, or pushed back into such a hole that nobody not in FT/TT can have much fun. Needless to say, this is highly annoying to those on the same side who are trying to prevent this, or actually want to win the war for a change. And when the country gets reset, or its FT/TT bases finally get taken after it has also lost most of the map, those in FT/TT, who did nothing to prevent this themselves, get annoyed at those who were doing the MA thing for not succeeding.
I'd rather see FT/TT areas banished from the MA. If you want to play that type of game, do it in IL2, CFS, or some such limited-capacity, non-persistent game. Or beg HT to build you a separate arena for such stuff. OTOH, if you're in the MA, you should do the MA thing.
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EDIT:
NOTE: this is NOT to say I'm a big fan on the MA thing. When TOD/CT or whatever they're now calling it comes out, you'll find me there. And if there was a separate FT/TT arena, maybe I'd be there instead of the MA. But I don't like what I've seen in the MA as a result of many maps having FT/TT areas.
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Originally posted by soupcan
all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
Seems a more logical solution would be to re-configure the DA or the backup MA so that it resembles the FT + TT that you guys love so much. You are advocating a de-facto separate arena anyway, so why not take it to its logical conclusion? Wanting "special arrangements" within the MA seems silly if you don't want any part of the MA's design to begin with.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
soupcan said:
... because they go against the purpose of the MA (assuming it has one).
Actually, BH... there isn't one purpose... this entire thread and the rest which are alike goes to show that people have different purpose, each for his/her own. Each with different style of playing.
As for myself, I was an advocate for Fightertown in AirWarrior and we got it when we discussed it on Gamestorm. The discussion here is no different from then.
If you ask me, my real preference on a map structure is like that of AirWarrior Classic where only the bases in the middle was capturable. We didn't have discussions like this then. This line of discussion only came when all bases became capturable in AW2, because imho, the objective of the game suddenly shifted to annihilating the opponent by capturing all their bases. This induces horde-like behavior because it is easier to attain the goal that way. So, although my view is not restricted to AH, which came first, an arena with bases that are not capturable or an arena with bases that are all capturable? I have been lobbying for a map like AW Classic and will continue to do so. Of course, if this type of map is placed in the MA, it will change the nature of the "war" in your definition.
Now that I am going into history of gaming online for flight sims, you what I miss in AH and AW alike? Deep penetration missions, where bombers will go high up to take out a strat target deep inside enemy territory. Before, in AH, the HQ was not resuppliable. It went down for two hours once it was taken out. Similar thing was with the Spit factory in AW Classic, once the factory was destroyed, Spits were not available for 30mins or so.
Why am I bringing this up? Because let's face it, We all like to get on each other's cases. Whether that be out-manuvering the opponent in superior ACMs, or taking out an HQ (hence radar) or a Spit factory, we just want to hear the other guy whine and complain about what you have done. It is the sure sign that you have proven something to yourself. Well, saluting the opponent is more of the gentlemanly act in this case.
So, what do I do in TT? I take a Jeep or M8 or T34 and just dash through the battlefield and take out as much opponent as much as possible. I don't take a Tiger because I would be sitting in an armour comfortably without much fear of dying. In FT, I would take an A6M2, which is slow and with relatively low ammo and would have difficulty getting out of a furball.
So, why don't I lobby for another arena? Because I enjoy the company of the other players there and the choice of being able to furball or landgrab in a given arena. Those are the only reasons.
Does any of this make sense to anybody? I am not sure, but one thing that I know for sure is that this is the way I find the most fun.
I am going to stop here and get back to work before I spill more guts out...
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Originally posted by Bullethead
soupcan said:
Nay!
I oppose having TTs and FTs on maps because they go against the purpose of the MA (assuming it has one). Basically, the MA is there for all the team effort stuff, even if that boils down to the usual porkdweeb/landgrab BS. But that's why it supports many hundreds of players instead of just 64.
What happens when you have a TT/FT area is that one side or the other will gravitate there instead of fighting the war, with the result that it gets reset, or pushed back into such a hole that nobody not in FT/TT can have much fun. Needless to say, this is highly annoying to those on the same side who are trying to prevent this, or actually want to win the war for a change. And when the country gets reset, or its FT/TT bases finally get taken after it has also lost most of the map, those in FT/TT, who did nothing to prevent this themselves, get annoyed at those who were doing the MA thing for not succeeding.
I'd rather see FT/TT areas banished from the MA. If you want to play that type of game, do it in IL2, CFS, or some such limited-capacity, non-persistent game. Or beg HT to build you a separate arena for such stuff. OTOH, if you're in the MA, you should do the MA thing.
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EDIT:
NOTE: this is NOT to say I'm a big fan on the MA thing. When TOD/CT or whatever they're now calling it comes out, you'll find me there. And if there was a separate FT/TT arena, maybe I'd be there instead of the MA. But I don't like what I've seen in the MA as a result of many maps having FT/TT areas.
I oppose having TTs and FTs on maps because they go against the purpose of the MA (assuming it has one).
What is that purpose ? (assuming it has one).
the usual porkdweeb/landgrab BS is not the only team effort stuff that the MA has to offer ... there are other teaming opportunities beside landgrabbing.
What happens when you have a TT/FT area is that one side or the other will gravitate there instead of fighting the war, with the result that it gets reset, or pushed back into such a hole that nobody not in FT/TT can have much fun.
From what I have seen ... the amount of participants in FT/TT are pretty equal amongst all 3 countries.
So what if some gravitate there ... make believe that they aren't even logged on ... maybe that will take the edge off.
Please give more detail on how those not in FT/TT can't have much fun.
I have never heard from those who participate in FT/TT get pissed or berate those who "lost" the war ... I think you are streching it a little bit.
Or beg HT to build you a separate arena for such stuff. OTOH, if you're in the MA, you should do the MA thing.
Please ... the current map is Trinity ... it has 155 fields ... 3 field set aside for TT ... that leave 152 fields left to do the landgrab thing. Sounds a bit selfish to me.
When TOD/CT or whatever they're now calling it comes out, you'll find me there.
It can't come soon enough for me either ... although I won't be there.
But I don't like what I've seen in the MA as a result of many maps having FT/TT areas.
Yeah ... it's a cryin' shame that grown men/women can't see and understand the design of FT/TT and leave it for what it was meant for ... instead it pulls the griefers from the depths of the MA sewer to do what they do best ... enjoy, at any cost, ruining someone elses idea of fun.
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I think anything that thoughtfully includes a variety of features meant to appeal to as many of HTC's customers as possible, while taking reasonable measures to prevent exploits and griefing, is a good thing.
Anyone who doesn't agree is obviously a griefer.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I think anything that thoughtfully includes a variety of features meant to appeal to as many of HTC's customers as possible, while taking reasonable measures to prevent exploits and griefing, is a good thing.
Anyone who doesn't agree is obviously a griefer.
Yup, succinctly that is the whole point...The fact that cannot be denied is a significant portion do one thing and one thing only, grief, and for no other reason than to deprive others of fun.
AH is not unique in this respect, I remember the early days of FPS's and games like Ultima Online, griefing was a major problem, it completely ruined many otherwise great games, rendering them financially non-viable if the designers failed to re-act or were slow to do so. Griefers and griefing has a deleterious effect upon the morale and continuity of any gaming community, as is evidenced in AH in-game and on these forums. AH by its very open-endedness is especially vulnerable to griefers and griefing. There is, at this point, very few limitations or restrictions on the ability of relatively few griefers to ruin the gaming experience for the majority of other paying customers (removing fuel porking to 25% was the last major restriction on this type of behavior). It is the repsonsibility of the designers and to a lesser degree the community itself to curtail griefing or suffer the grim yet inevitable consequences...
Zazen
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one solution for FT .... (Air Start !!! ) hint hint
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, succinctly that is the whole point...The fact that cannot be denied is a significant portion do one thing and one thing only, grief, and for no other reason than to deprive others of fun.
AH is not unique in this respect, I remember the early days of FPS and games like Ultima Online, griefing was a major problem, it completely ruined many otherwise great games, rendering them financially non-viable if the designers failed to re-act or were slow to do so. Griefers and griefing has a deleterious effect upon the morale and continuity of any gaming community, as is evidenced in-game and on these forums. AH by its very open-endedness is especially vulnerable to griefers and griefing. There is, at this point, very few limitations or restrictions on the ability of relatively few griefers to ruin the gaming experience for the majority of other paying customers. It is the repsonsibility of the designers and to a lesser degree the community itself to curtail griefing or suffer the grim but inevitable consequences...
Zazen
So, in short Zazen, we, as a community, just have to learn to play with each other nicely... anyway? Right?
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I say yes...
There is no reason to say no unless you were one of those kids your mom had to hang pork chops on in order to get even the dogs to play with you.
No problem... I realize that there are such people.
Furball hit on what it would need tho... grass strips with no hangers... There is precident.. the alied vs axis arena has this so it is possible..
Those in a panic that no one will play with them if not forced to need to realize that this is not a seperate arena... it is maybe an arena within an arena but not a seperate arena.
There is a huge difference... in a FT or TT you could take off there and if you felt like you had your fill of it you could die or land or auger and then take off somewhere else on the map.... all seemlessly and all... using the same map and map tools. Most would fly the FT for a while and then switch to an area on the rest of the map that looked good maybe... or.... vice versa
It would simply be about more choice and keeping people from logging or quitting from boredom.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Force Fields. The ultimate solution, muahahahahah :O
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
So, in short Zazen, we, as a community, just have to learn to play with each other nicely... anyway? Right?
:huh Sorry? Play nicely with each other? What planet did you say you came from?
The purpose of games like AH is to inflict pain upon your opponent. You can do this by besting him/her in ACM, tank tactics, taking his/her territory, etc. Given that and human nature, you're going to find griefers. They do it to cause pain and they'll continue to grief others as long as it is possible to do it. It may seem perverse, but it is human nature. That's the way it is on this planet.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
:huh Sorry? Play nicely with each other? What planet did you say you came from?
The purpose of games like AH is to inflict pain upon your opponent. You can do this by besting him/her in ACM, tank tactics, taking his/her territory, etc. Given that and human nature, you're going to find griefers. They do it to cause pain and they'll continue to grief others as long as it is possible to do it. It may seem perverse, but it is human nature. That's the way it is on this planet.
ah, well, perhaps I didn't phrase it, right. nevermind, it is not a matter to pursue.
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Originally posted by soupcan
all those in favor of every map having a fighter town
and a tank town (each surrounded with 100k mountains and
no ords or troops)..........
say aye
aye!
:aok
then again what would happen to the BB?:O
NO FT
NO TT
Laissez faire !
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I like it would keep the fun poilce away and just let peeps have fun!. I hate going to TT or FT and seeing a base has been taken away from any side:cry
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Dutch!
You brought fond memories back of destroying the spit factory!:aok
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Yes to FT/TT.........
But Hitec needs to comeout with a few rules for the maps with FT/TT. And maybe a few MODs to inforce them.
One being no bombing inside FT/TT....
But on the same note... All other bases outside of FT is a target and open to attack even if the "Fighter only" types are trying to furball there...
Or HiTec need to comeout once and all and state what type of gameplay in the MA is OK.....Furballing... capturing territory.... Maybe he made so he watch us have a never ending food fight on the BBS. :O LOL
CAVALRY
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Actually Chopsaw, the point of games is to have fun. The desire to inflict pain and suffering on others is likely the result of underlying emotional or behavioral issues. While the game may be a vehicle for those possessing such issues, it's not actually part of the game's structure or goals. ;)
FDutchmn, what you said makes perfect sense. :aok
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FDutchmn said:
Actually, BH... there isn't one purpose... this entire thread and the rest which are alike goes to show that people have different purpose, each for his/her own. Each with different style of playing.
But that's my point. The idea of walling off an FT/TT area that's off limits to the landgrabbing porkdweebs is effectively the same, from the POV of those in FT/TT, as being in a separate arena. So why not just go for another arena instead of setting up an anomalous area within an arena that's designed to be the very opposite?
The real rub is that FT/TT is NOT just like being in another arena from the POV of everybody else in the MA who is not in FT/TT. Every FT/TT guy counts towards his country's perk balance, for one thing, so everybody else on that side is penalized unfairly due to country numbers, when many of the guys on that side are focused ONLY on their private 2-3 square sector area in FT/TT. That's wrong. Therefore, I see no reason why FT/TT on an MA map should be impervious to outside porkdweebing and landgrabbing. If you're gonna affect the game for everybody else, then you shouldn't complain when everybody else affects your game.
If you ask me, my real preference on a map structure is like that of AirWarrior Classic where only the bases in the middle was capturable. We didn't have discussions like this then. This line of discussion only came when all bases became capturable in AW2, because imho, the objective of the game suddenly shifted to annihilating the opponent by capturing all their bases.
I much preferred the DOS AW system, too. But it only worked back then because we could only have 60, later 90, people in the whole arena. We can have 700 now, and even in AW2 we could have 2-300. But neither the host, nor our FEs, then or now, could handle that many people being crammed into the center few sectors of the map. The only way around that was to make more bases capturable, to spread the players out. And once Kesmai got beyond Scavenger Sound, they decided, "why not make ALL bases capturable?" And at that time, the RTS craze was at its peak, so making the whole arena into a huge RTS game with "tank rushes" composed of airplanes looked quite attractive as a way to bring in business. So things perforce have remained, thanks to ever-increasing numbers of players and the inability of contemporary computers to be able to deal with them all at once.
We can't go back to the AW method, so the only alternative is lotsa capturable bases. And unlike AW, where individual bases could be set to be capturable or not, in AH all bases HAVE to be, because they all require a map room to work, and the setting for the number of troops to take a map room applies to all fields. Thus, without a major change to the whole AH terrain system, we're stuck with all fields being capturable. Furthermore, because getting a reset requires reducing a country to a single field, the FT/TT fields MUST be capturable if everybody else in the MA is to be allowed to do their thing.
So, why don't I lobby for another arena? Because I enjoy the company of the other players there and the choice of being able to furball or landgrab in a given arena. Those are the only reasons.
That's all well and good, but IMHO there's no place in the MA for a sacrosanct FT/TT area. If you're in FT/TT, your very presence in the arena has a noticeable effect on how the game plays for everybody else, and everybody else needs to capture your FT/TT area to achieve the object of the MA. So you can't have it both ways. Either you have an FT/TT that's subject to porking and landgrabbing just like everything else on the map, and accept it without whining when that happens, or you go off in your own arena or a completely different game where you're safe from interference and your presence has no effect on anybody else. Those are the only possible options with the way the AH map system works at present.
Now, if HTC was to change the MA map system, so you could make uncapturable, unporkable fields, and these fields and the people at them had no effect on achieving a reset or perk balance, then the MA and an FT/TT area could co-exist on the same map. But it's still silly, because then the FT/TT area would effectively be a separate arena, except for the ability to talk to people in "another arena", so why not just go with a completely separate arena? That sounds like the simplest way to satisfy both sides.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Actually Chopsaw, the point of games is to have fun. The desire to inflict pain and suffering on others is likely the result of underlying emotional or behavioral issues. While the game may be a vehicle for those possessing such issues, it's not actually part of the game's structure or goals. ;)
FDutchmn, what you said makes perfect sense. :aok
:lol Actually, hub, you're depositing the biggest load to date and I'm sure you know it. (sniff, sniff) Yep. That's Bait-n-Bull, a fine old BK recipe. If there is a member of the BK's that doesn't love it when their opponents squeal in frustration, I've yet to hear from them. In the game or on the boards, you guys just love to inflict it. This is not too different from the rest of the players. Everyone loves the tingle of besting their opponent. If that isn't inflicting pain and loving it, I don't know what is.
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2 counter points to all that, BH.
Things are the way they are, not because they have to be, but because HT hasn't felt like rewriting that part of the code.
The fields don't require a maproom to function in the game; the fields only require a maproom for the capture mechanic to work. At some point in the past, an update was released with a small bug in it. No V bases, if memory serves me correctly, had maprooms. Everything worked, except the capture process at that particular base type.
Also, the separate arena idea is bad in so many ways, it does not even merit discussion. When you start talking about the purposes and proper methods of gameplay, you're putting words into HTC's mouth. The only real mention of structure is that there's a 3 sided war with land that can be taken in order to have a premise for combat. That's it. Every other statement regarding gameplay goals, objectives, and the noticeable impact that furballers have on each other is solely your opinion.
Continuing along your line of logic, anyone not actively capturing land, or attempting to, should be booted to another arena. I disagree. There should be room for everyone to do whatever, without denying others their idea of fun.
Until such time as HTC lays down a specific all encompassing set of rules that dictate what is, and what isn't, acceptable gameplay, the folks only interested in FT/TT aren't affecting your gameplay, at all.
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You know BH, we are not too different in our ideas... I do see your reasoning, and what you are suggesting is also a solution (eg. another arena) Quite frankly, I do think it is very viable solution. Why? good example is when AW introduced several arenas of the same type. As far as I recall, we had several arenas for Relaxed Realism Europe and people did learn to live with that, while before we only had one. Well, for Full Realism there was only one.
But then again why does FT/TT have to be in a different arena when I would like to yell and scream with the guys that I usually do? It's a matter of communication and going into a different arena will put a wall to it. So, having a different arena for will not do... at least for me. Yeah, you can say that I should learn or adjust into it... but... well. I can't see it that way at the moment.
Ok, another thing about AW... I think when they made all bases capturable, it was too much a quantum leap of things. I think the solution should have been a bigger map with more bases capturable but not all. And this is what has not been tried out yet, on AW or on AH. Btw, I also suggesting a change to the definition of what constitutes to "winning a war" because the way we have it today induces hordes. HTC has tried to balance that with perk point multiplier or the ENY restriction, but that hasn't really worked as much as we all had hoped... I am assuming HTC feels the same. The bottom line, there must be something not right with the objective that many people have in the arena. This has to be changed. I have suggested on these BBS several options that HTC can consider... including a map with the middle part capturable with several layers of bases capturable. If we take a look at what was going on the ETO map in AW Classic, the furballers only need the bases at the edges. The rest could have been made capturable, thereby increasing the area for capture. I think this has to be given a fair try. We can design a map in such a configuration. I still think this would bring the best of two worlds.
Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end. It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az, I am gonna put an end to this!" He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down. Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done! They can't up any more! Our fun has stopped!" So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.
So is there any chance of applying this to AH... I think so. Landgrabbers and Furballers can co-exist imho. We just have to adjust the configuration right and the community needs to learn to co-exist.
This all is again my opinion...
Originally posted by Bullethead
FDutchmn said:
But that's my point. The idea of walling off an FT/TT area that's off limits to the landgrabbing porkdweebs is effectively the same, from the POV of those in FT/TT, as being in a separate arena. So why not just go for another arena instead of setting up an anomalous area within an arena that's designed to be the very opposite?
The real rub is that FT/TT is NOT just like being in another arena from the POV of everybody else in the MA who is not in FT/TT. Every FT/TT guy counts towards his country's perk balance, for one thing, so everybody else on that side is penalized unfairly due to country numbers, when many of the guys on that side are focused ONLY on their private 2-3 square sector area in FT/TT. That's wrong. Therefore, I see no reason why FT/TT on an MA map should be impervious to outside porkdweebing and landgrabbing. If you're gonna affect the game for everybody else, then you shouldn't complain when everybody else affects your game.
I much preferred the DOS AW system, too. But it only worked back then because we could only have 60, later 90, people in the whole arena. We can have 700 now, and even in AW2 we could have 2-300. But neither the host, nor our FEs, then or now, could handle that many people being crammed into the center few sectors of the map. The only way around that was to make more bases capturable, to spread the players out. And once Kesmai got beyond Scavenger Sound, they decided, "why not make ALL bases capturable?" And at that time, the RTS craze was at its peak, so making the whole arena into a huge RTS game with "tank rushes" composed of airplanes looked quite attractive as a way to bring in business. So things perforce have remained, thanks to ever-increasing numbers of players and the inability of contemporary computers to be able to deal with them all at once.
We can't go back to the AW method, so the only alternative is lotsa capturable bases. And unlike AW, where individual bases could be set to be capturable or not, in AH all bases HAVE to be, because they all require a map room to work, and the setting for the number of troops to take a map room applies to all fields. Thus, without a major change to the whole AH terrain system, we're stuck with all fields being capturable. Furthermore, because getting a reset requires reducing a country to a single field, the FT/TT fields MUST be capturable if everybody else in the MA is to be allowed to do their thing.
That's all well and good, but IMHO there's no place in the MA for a sacrosanct FT/TT area. If you're in FT/TT, your very presence in the arena has a noticeable effect on how the game plays for everybody else, and everybody else needs to capture your FT/TT area to achieve the object of the MA. So you can't have it both ways. Either you have an FT/TT that's subject to porking and landgrabbing just like everything else on the map, and accept it without whining when that happens, or you go off in your own arena or a completely different game where you're safe from interference and your presence has no effect on anybody else. Those are the only possible options with the way the AH map system works at present.
Now, if HTC was to change the MA map system, so you could make uncapturable, unporkable fields, and these fields and the people at them had no effect on achieving a reset or perk balance, then the MA and an FT/TT area could co-exist on the same map. But it's still silly, because then the FT/TT area would effectively be a separate arena, except for the ability to talk to people in "another arena", so why not just go with a completely separate arena? That sounds like the simplest way to satisfy both sides.
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This needs to be read by everyone again and fully understood, because this is the core of the problem as it manifests itself in AH...
Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end. It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az, I am gonna put an end to this!" He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down. Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done! They can't up any more! Our fun has stopped!" So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
This needs to be read by everyone again and fully understood, because this is the core of the problem as it manifests itself in AH...
Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end. It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az, I am gonna put an end to this!" He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down. Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done! They can't up any more! Our fun has stopped!" So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.
Item #1: You now have to convince 3000 people to play by unwritten rules.
Item #2: How many 13 year olds were playing AW @ $6.00 per hour?
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Item #1: You now have to convince 3000 people to play by unwritten rules.
Item #2: How many 13 year olds were playing AW @ $6.00 per hour?
That is the value of threads like this one and the 2 or 3 similiar threads active right now. The BBS and the posters therein educate the portion of the community that reads it. Those readers in turn disseminate that information to countrymen, squadmates and friends in game. It is by this process that we develop a standard of conduct within the community that tends to fascilitate the best gameplay possible within the framework of the game. That's how it was done for 15 years in AW and that's how it's done here. If anti-social/anti-fun griefing behavior is responded to with disdain and ostrasization, as we have done to LCA, then eventually the perpetrators will seek out a pattern of behavior that garners them more favorable accolades from their peers.
There were alot of teenagers playing AW. AW became flat-rate in 1990 or thereabouts so, FDutchman's anecdote from the past was almost certainly from the flat-rate era when there were a healthy number of youngsters playing. I was 19 myself when I started playing AW circa 1990. Obviously, we, as a community, do not expect those very new to the game to be automatically able to distinguish 'right from wrong' but we do expect a certain level of accountability in terms of adopting acceptable behavior based on their ever-increasing knowledge of the game and in-game feedback on the ramifications of their actions, both postive and negative.
So, it is our duty as aged and experienced members of the community to re-enforce and ingrain these standards of conduct within the game. It is necessary and vital we do so to preserve this game and this genre from the anti-social behavior that plagues any and all massively-multiplayer games to one degree or another. If griefing behavior is tolerated and permitted with no reprisals from the community, gameplay will suffer, customer patronage will in turn suffer and eventually this game and this genre will devolve into something that will have lost its appeal to the vast majority of paying customers and will almost certainly fail. We owe the community and this fine product our best efforts to prevent this griefing trend from snowballing into inevitable disaster...
Zazen
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Given the way the DA was fixed, if I were you and wanted TT or FT to stay around, I would stop complaining and/or asking for help. Just do what I do. First 2 runs every night are hitting ord of BHs. Then post on 200 "News at 11 o'clock. Ord down at ## field"
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Originally posted by dedalos
Given the way the DA was fixed, if I were you and wanted TT or FT to stay around, I would stop complaining and/or asking for help. Just do what I do. First 2 runs every night are hitting ord of BHs. Then post on 200 "News at 11 o'clock. Ord down at ## field"
Yup, there should be a gentleman's agreement between all furballer that ord at FT bases is never allowed to come up. Announce you are killing ord and the enemies let you through to do the job. Then it's back to "Air Combat"