Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on April 01, 2006, 10:18:25 PM
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The P38's low speed handling completely sucks since 2.07. Once flaps are extended 75% or more it wont even nose up. I've noticed with full throttle, auto pilot and full flaps, the P38 loses alt. It feels like I am flying with "stall limit enabled" but I checked and it is in fact off. I've had 109's with gondolas loaded out turn me, which did not happen before. The only thing that flaps seem to do for the 38 is add drag and no lift. The new stall FM seems good for most planes; for example before 2.07, planes such as P51s and P47s would use full flaps to help them turn, but in WW2 pilots wouldn't dare extend flaps to that degree while in a combat situation. But for planes with Fowler/ Butterfly flaps it does not seem realistic at all.
I do not fly the Ki84 often so I do not know how effective its flaps are now compared to before.
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Ki-84 seems to be the same.
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Maybe they're not porked... Maybe they were fixed. Seems that way across the board. One to two notches of flaps = old benefit. Full flaps = landing only. <-- that's how it is post 2.07.
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Yea, I came back after a short break to find the P38 now unable to enter a snap roll stall like it used to, but now it feels like things are flying on rails since the combat trim has been made much more efficient.
Simply put, the P38 could climb with flaps fully down and AH's doesn't.
IMHO, this new flight model is a step backwards... it is more gamey and feels more like AW than something from this decade.
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Ki-84 is great for slow ropes and scissors; one night I was able to rack up some good numbers. Take in mind I consider myself a HORRIBLE fighter pilot.
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Just take care when you deploy the last notch of flaps and don't ride it for too long and it won't be a problem. This last patch in no way hindered the abilities of the P-38.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Krusty
Maybe they're not porked... Maybe they were fixed. Seems that way across the board. One to two notches of flaps = old benefit. Full flaps = landing only. <-- that's how it is post 2.07.
Maybe so for conventional flaps. P38 and Ki84 flaps are meant to be used at higher degrees. One or two notches is not the norm for the P38, 3 or 4 is closer to normal fighting conditions.
I have to disagree ack ack, it cannot loop, nor can it spiral climb anywhere near as well as it use to. It just seems as if the new flap system does not properly effect fowler flaps.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Just take care when you deploy the last notch of flaps and don't ride it for too long and it won't be a problem. This last patch in no way hindered the abilities of the P-38.
ack-ack
how do you know it hasn't?? have you been on a shade account or have come back?????:noid
Edit: Yes also the 38 seems to have lost a lot of low speed performance.
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AKAK, I fly 38 little more than most people, especially slow.
Its lost a lot of ability. I used to be able to tangle with spit16 at low speed, now its not worth trying. Flys the same at speed, but 75% flaps its porked.
PLEASE give old 38 back HTC. :D
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Well, you now have air brakes. Not bad at all ;)
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i think the messed up more thing then they fixed with patch, the world doesnt need a slower corsair.
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if it's any consolation to you, they made 109's fly better. they still suck tho.
~rat
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sorry guys i notice nothing.
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Originally posted by wetrat
if it's any consolation to you, they made 109's fly better. they still suck tho.
~rat
I noticed that, I upped a 109G2 WITH gondolas and got 6 kills easily. I think that 1 sortie got me more kills than I got in a P38 all day.
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The low speed flight characteristics have definetly changed bug , if you aren't noticing ANYTHING, they your keeping it fast . The just above stall , full flap turn fight is a thing of the past with this new patch . Right or wrong , i cant say , ive never flown a real 38.
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:lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol
:rofl :rofl
:rofl
wahh! wahh! my fat ugly plane now is not only fat and ugly but it is no longer modelled like a ufo!
:t
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I thought Speed = Life :)
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Originally posted by Delirium
Yea, I came back after a short break to find the P38 now unable to enter a snap roll stall like it used to, but now it feels like things are flying on rails since the combat trim has been made much more efficient.
Simply put, the P38 could climb with flaps fully down and AH's doesn't.
IMHO, this new flight model is a step backwards... it is more gamey and feels more like AW than something from this decade.
Did the real P-38 climb with FULL flaps?
BTW, these "full flaps close to the stall" endless maneuvers of the AH's american irons have always amazed me ...
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Originally posted by gatt
Did the real P-38 climb with FULL flaps?
BTW, these "full flaps close to the stall" endless maneuvers of the AH's american irons have always amazed me ...
Rightly so. I think now it's much more realistic. Whether it still needs tweaking on the P38 (the nose down is kinda odd) but in general I think it's far far better than what we've had since AH2 came out.
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been flying the G only its not that fast and i fly it on the stall alot.
maybe i just flew to little but i cannot feel minor differences.
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Where did HTC stated that it changed the FM ?
I mean yesterday i tangled with hurries,F4's and there no extra problems with it.
The P38 is still amazing.
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(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/150101.jpg)
EDIT: Not My Work BTW......
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Maybe you aren't supposed to use flaps in landing positions for combat purposes.
Maybe being able to use such a high-degree of drag-creating mechanism at its fullest for purposes outside of temporary stabilization before landing, was the really "gamey" thing, which was rightfully fixed with the new versions.
I wouldn't know.
Anybody have real-life accounts of planes flopping around and maneuvering at 2mph above stall speed with flaps out in a full landing position?
By the way, the P-38 Fowlers seem no different than other slotted types once they go over some 3~4 notches of deployment. The Ki-84 Fowlers extend just straight back from the trailing edge of the wing, almost making it look like the wing area is growing. Even at landing position it extends and arcs only slightly downward.
If you look at the P-38s, its own Fowlers does the same up to about two notches or so, but with full deployment it arcs down at a steep angle. As a layman, the way it looks doesn't seem to be any more 'efficient' than any typical slotted flap that was fully extended.
ps) Not to mention the fact that the sight of seeing US planes being unable to do the ol' "hovercraft" crap is unmeasurably satisfying to my eyes.
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You guys misunderstand me... even tho the P38 has lost some of that low speed handling, it doesn't snaproll anymore and that is a really decent trade. I'm not saying the P38 has been 'nerfed', but the overall flight model has been made alot easier.
It just seems to me that there is alot less departure and it feels like it flies on rails now. Except for the rare times I'm turn fighting at 90 ias, the P38 is even incredible... and I hate to say it, I don't like it.
I don't like that 'rail' feeling... I feel it is a step backwards in the FM model.
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"Maybe you aren't supposed to use flaps in landing positions for combat purposes."
that may be part of the key .. but as a jug dweeb we cant slam the over 3 notches in a turn fight or we get the "Floppity Brick" .. what i see/feel now is the heavy management to manuver type planes are having to suffer a slower feel and air speed in the game ..
We want our 38's and jugs tuned back up so we can keep hurting "barbie spit 16's" even the p51 seams to be more manuverable as of late.
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It just seems to me that there is alot less departure and it feels like it flies on rails now. Except for the rare times I'm turn fighting at 90 ias, the P38 is even incredible... and I hate to say it, I don't like it.
I don't like that 'rail' feeling... I feel it is a step backwards in the FM model.
But technically, shouldn't that be how a P-38 flies and feels? It neutralizes it's own torque with counter rotational props.
I agree that I also feel the amount of general stability of all the planes have increased a lot, but there could be any number of reasons behind this - for one thing, the visual buffeting effect makes controlling planes immensely easier than before. I never realized that getting a visual input alongside audio input, was this effective.
Maybe people are avoiding going over the limit much more easily than they used to.
that may be part of the key .. but as a jug dweeb we cant slam the over 3 notches in a turn fight or we get the "Floppity Brick" .. what i see/feel now is the heavy management to manuver type planes are having to suffer a slower feel and air speed in the game ..
We want our 38's and jugs tuned back up so we can keep hurting "barbie spit 16's" even the p51 seams to be more manuverable as of late.
Maybe you should just accept the fact that a 13,000lbs plane just cannot really 'hurt' a 6,000lbs plane in their own game, no matter how much flaps are used, Rosc :).
As for the P-51s, I'm hearing mixed opinions about it too - for instance, Magoo points out that he feels the P-51s are also heavily hit by the FM change,.
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13,000 lb s' ... nah mine is still on its diet ..(at least they didnt mess around with the secret jug society tricks )
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I was never a great fan of the flaps overusage. When I get past the 2nd notch of flaps I'm not really turning but trying to stop myself in mid air. Flying a Jug that is.
They do seem more realistic now in the way they bleed your E. Flaps do not improve the sustained turn rate - just reduce the turn radius and the instantanious turn rate below max G speeds. That is how it works now and I'm happy about it even though it hurts my plane to some extent. People will just have to realise that "combat" flaps means just the 1st or 2nd notches and that using it comes at a price.
Bozon
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LOL this thread sucks. Poor P38. Maybe after its been completely de-nut'd we can remove one of the engines.
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The 38 is so dweeby we have to give them clueless dweebfire and lgay7 pilots a chance. :t
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Like I said in my original post, yes it seems more realistic with planes with conventional flaps. Now they can only really use one or two notches of flaps. But the P38 is meant to fly with 3 or 4 notches of flaps out. Full flaps is 5 notches. The old FM was unrealistic, I was able to out turn spits with 2 DTs on. Now it is unrealistic because even with no DTs, heavy 109s don't have trouble out turning a P38. My arguement is the new stall feature does not seem to add any lift, only drag.
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Here are the stall speeds listed in the Pilots Manual.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/images/pohstall.jpg)
Here are the speeds in ISA that the buffet kicks in at 1000 Ft, idle power with auto-pilot engaged in a P-38J with aprox. 2010 lbs of fuel and ammo, for an aproximate gross weight of 15,000 lbs.
No Flaps 107 mph
1 notch 106 mph
2 notch 105 mph
3 notch 106 mph
4 notch 99 mph
Full Flaps 103 mph
Full Flaps & Gear 89 mph
Lockheed's Hanger Flying Issue: 6, test pilot Ray Meskimen
For greatest maneuverability we have found that the maneuvering flaps should be extended only long enough to complete the particular maneuver and then be retracted immediately. For example, in an effort to stay on an enemy's tail, you might feel in a tight turn the buffeting which is characteristic of an accelerated stall. You can "reef" her in and tighten your turn by lowering the maneuvering flaps until you have completed the maneuver, then retract them. By doing so immediately, little air speed is lost, and the plane is set again for maximum operations.
With virtiually no difference in conditions for stall between clean confituration, and maneuver flap setting, there is no "reefing" in.
For delerium, here is Tony Levier's description of the stall from Hanger Flying Issue: 2
The '38 is a pilot's dream-come-true when it comes to the stall characteristics. They are unusually good and-although not generally used-are worthwhile investigating so that in an emergency you will know what performance to expect from your ship. We have discovered that the power stall occurs at about 70 M.P.H. with about a 50-foot loss of altitude. The counter rotating propellers eliminate torque and there is no tendency for either wing to dip or fall away.
You will find "she" is just as steady in a power off stall with gear and flaps retracted or extended.One of the finest characteristics of the '38 is the accelerated stall. Such stalls, accompanied by normal buffeting, occur on any ship when the angle of attack is increased to the point that the airflow over the wing becomes turbulent.
As you know, this can happen in sharp turns, pull-outs or other severe maneuvers. The '38 is designed to take the buffeting of the stall and has no tendency to fall off on either wing at any altitude. If combat necessitates, you can hold it in the accelerated stall as long as you can take the buffeting -- the ship will take it much longer. To get out of an accelerated stall immediately, ease up on the stick, permitting the airflow to reestablish normal lift.
For Kweassa regarding low speed maneuvering:
The Great Book of WW2 Airplanes, P-38 Chapter by Jeffrey Ethell quoting Major John A. Tilley (http://www.475thfghf.org/Aces/tilley.htm) of the 475th FG
John A Tilley, a squadron mate of McGuire's and an ace himself, remembers that Mac was notorious for going "round and round" with Japanese fighters. McGuire told those under his command never to turn with an enemy fighter in the heavy'38 but he did it anyway with great sucess, particularly at low altitudes and low airspeeds of 90 mph.
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Althought dogfighting in the Lightning was often played down officially, it was more common than not. Tilley remembered "most of our fights with the Japanese started out above 20,000 feet but damned soon everyone was milling around on the deck. And that lovely Lightning just didn't have any competition at low altitude. I've flown the P-51 (liked it very much) and the P-47 (disliked it very much), and I've engaged in mock dogfights against just about all our WWII fighter planes. The only one the ole Lockheed Rocking Chanir and I had trouble staying behind was a pretty savvy Navy type in an F4F Wildcat.
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"Alright, so how come I got my second kill by turning a full 360° circle to the left, at low speeds and on the deck with and Oscar? Primarily I think it happened because the Jap and I both believed he could out turn me. I never would have tried to stay with him if there hadn't been 12 of us and only two of them. I figured I could always holler for help if I got in a jam. And I'm sure the Jap figured the usual tight turn was his best bet when he didn't have enough air under him for a split-S. Miracle of miracles, the big old P-38 actually turned inside the nimble little Oscar. I was on the deck, in a vertical bank, the airspeed under 90 mph, and the yoke was bucking and shuddering in my hands. That turn was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. But without torque (good old counter-rotating engines) I didn't worry about 'snapping' out of control and into a spin, as with a single engine aircraft, so I was able to pull enough lead for my guns to really hit him hard. By the time we had completed 360° of this turn he was a ball of flames, and my aircraft was drenched with oil from his engine. I couldn't see a thing through the windshield so I had to ask a squadron mate to lead me home."
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(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/images/pohstall.jpg)
This sounds nothing like the 38 in AH2.
Uncontroled most often unrecoverable flat spins from as high or higher than 15k down to the deck and into the dirt.
I have been flying the 38 for as long as I've been flying AH. In AH 1 there was almost no tendency for the plane to get into a flat spin. (Do a search) When AH2 came out, my first post about AH2's "new/better FM" tweaks was that the 38 now was able to enter a stall/flatspin that was hardly ever recoverable. I remember going afk ending up at 20k with a con on my long 6. I went to reverse slowly to meet nose to nose and before I could reverse fully I was in a stall and falling straight down... from 20k or so right into the water. It was an agressive reverse, but no more agressive than the 1000's of other times I've reversed with someone on my 6. My speed entering the reversal was aprox 250mph after I had been level for a short while.
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It is, and should be possible though to stall one wing while maneuvering hard, and send the 38 into a spin. I do have a quote here from the same book describing that situation happening in combat. In AH2 this is most likely to occur in a nose low turn.
edit: cant seem to find the quote now, may have been in another book. Anyways, that pilot had no stateside training in the 38, and was bounced on his first combat mission. When he tried to split-s he threw himself into a spin, and bailed out.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Ki-84 seems to be the same.
yep
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Morph, keep in mind that those speeds and that behavior is describing a straight and level 1G attitude, whereas your example was not straight and level, even a very low G turn can make a plane (any plane) enter a spin/stall.
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Yeah, 38G seems to do ok against the turn and burn, but the others are porked.
Glad Murdr got on here and posted some cold hard facts. This bird is fubar, it shouldn't just fall out of the sky with full flaps at 150-200mph.
Please FIX!!!:cry
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I just did a test offline to compare with what Murdr posted.
All of my tests were done with 25% fuel, began at 4k, and loaded 200 rounds per gun, 150 rounds in 20mm.
P38L - Power Off Stall Test
Flaps and gear up
- stall horn began to sound at 120mph Indicated Airspeed, 128mph True Airspeed.
- Began to buffet at 110mph indicated airspeed, 116mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 105mph indicated airspeed, 109mph True Airspeed
Flaps and Gear Fully lowered
- Stall horn sounded at 96mph Indicated Airspeed, 102mph True Airspeed
- Began to buffet at 90mph Indicated Airspeed, 96mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 80mph Indicated Airspeed, 86mph True Airspeed
P38J - Power Off Stall Test
Flaps And Gear Up
- stall horn began to sound at 121mph Indicated Airspeed, 125mph True Airspeed.
- Began to buffet at 105mph indicated airspeed, 109mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 100mph indicated airspeed, 104mph True Airspeed
Flaps and Gear Fully lowered
- Stall horn sounded at 93mph Indicated Airspeed, 101mph True Airspeed
- Began to buffet at 86mph Indicated Airspeed, 94mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 80mph Indicated Airspeed, 86mph True Airspeed
P38G - Power Off Stall Test
Flaps And Gear Up
- stall horn began to sound at 115mph Indicated Airspeed, 123mph True Airspeed.
- Began to buffet at 97mph indicated airspeed, 104mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 96mph indicated airspeed, 102mph True Airspeed
Flaps and Gear Fully lowered
- Stall horn sounded at 94mph Indicated Airspeed, 101mph True Airspeed
- Began to buffet at 82mph Indicated Airspeed, 89mph True Airspeed
- Began to stall at 75mph Indicated Airspeed, 86mph True Airspeed
Other notes:
- With Gear and Full Flaps Extended, flying at Full throttle, the P38L would level off speed at 83mph Indicated Airspeed, 88mph True Airspeed
- With Gear and Full Flaps Extended, flying at Full throttle, the P38J would level off speed at 83mph Indicated Airspeed, 88mph True Airspeed
- With Gear and Full Flaps Extended, flying at Full throttle, the P38G would level off speed at 79mph Indicated Airspeed, 83mph True Airspeed
- All P38s rapidly lose airspeed as soon as flaps are deployed. Will go from 120mph to 80mph in less than 4 seconds. Even with full throttle.
I would say Possible Human Error of 3
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Murdr,
One needs a complete data on the types and configurations of the plane tested, in order to compare it to the game. The type of plane teste, and some other parameters. For a loose comparison, here are the figures I got for a quick test for two P-38s, in turn.
-Parameters-
* 75% fuel, clean configuration
* 1k alt (minimal difference between TAS and IAS)
* Power Off stalls during level flight
* props feathered
* maintain manual control so the climbrate indicator holds 0
variance in climb/sink contained under +/- 50 ft at a given time
* when a plane can no longer hold the "0" point, and gives away
with sudden fall of the pitch, that point is considered 'stall'
-Planes-
P-38G
- no flaps: 95mph
- full flaps+gear: 72mph
P-38J
- no flaps: 110mph
- full flaps+gear: 78mph
The impending signs of stall, and the "mush", is all as described in the report. The stall warning starts to get louder, the plane shakes, and the climbrate indicator cannot hold "0" any longer. The pitch starts to drop suddenly, and as if some magic is occuring, the planes just stops buffeting and mushes over despite elevator input via stick. No tendency to spin.
When left alone at clean configuration the plane gains speed, the stick input comes alive, and the plane recovers. Unfortunately, with the gears out and flaps at landing position, Power Off stalls were unrecoverable naturally - probably due to the fact that the plane had no thrust at all and mega drag hanging under it.
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The real problem where people seem to be always disagreeing about, is what might happen at accelerated stalls..
Take into consideration that every one of those accounts have some very specific conditions on the point that the P-38 will refuse to stall out violently. Meskimen's account for example, specifically relies on a situation where the flaps are momentarily deployed and then quickly tucked back in - indicating an 'instantaenous turn' rather than a steady and continuous turn. This, is possible with AH2 P-38s.
The descriptions of the plane's inherent resistance to spins, is associated with stalls during level (essentially) level flight, test prcedure conditions with either Power On or Off. Tony Levier himself, in the very account you've quoted, clarifies;
One of the finest characteristics of the '38 is the accelerated stall. Such stalls, accompanied by normal buffeting, occur on any ship when the angle of attack is increased to the point that the airflow over the wing becomes turbulent.
By clarifying that it happens to 'any ship' - he also implies it DOES happen to the P-38 indeed. Also note that he clear mentions accelerated stalls separately, apart from stalls during level flight.
Also - look at the last account of McGuire's that you were kind enough to post for me;
I was on the deck, in a vertical bank, the airspeed under 90 mph, and the yoke was bucking and shuddering in my hands. That turn was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall.
This, is the part which is described as 'buffeting effect' in AH2, and indeed, even in the game, you can maintain that status for quite a long time without snapping over. If it were an AH2 Fw190 for example, the plane will just instantly flick over to its left side when the buffet starts to show. The real question here is, what happenes if you go even over that?
Will the P-38 still refuse to spin out of control?
In real life controlling the planes were a much heavier burden than the troubles we go through with a small joystick. Pulling the stick aroundto start turning the plane upto Gs itself required some amount of strength and control. When the plane begins to stall, the 'buffeting' manifests in your hand, as the stick starts to vibrate and shake, indicating a stalled status.
My take is that this is usually more than enough motivation to let the pilot ease off on the stick and return to controlled flight. In AH2, every single game pilot walks over that line routinely. Yes, the AH2 P-38 will dip one wing and fall under a spin during a turn. But my take is that this is a result of going over the 'controlled' status of the plane and pushing the stall even further upto a point of no return - which, quite contrarily, was something even the best of pilots would rarely venture into, and often payed price with death when they did so.
In other words, when you take up a P-38, and go into a sharp left turn, the plane shakes around. This is the point where McGuire, in the above account, already considered as a stalled status which he claims could control(and also the point where many single engine fighters would become highly sensitive and susceptible to falling under a 'snap roll' - which, is also true in AH2). This tendency is also observed in AH2 - keep a gentle coordination of the controls, and the P-38 will continue to turn despite the buffeting.
However, the point where the game pilots complain about that the P-38 will spin, IMO, is actually a point beyond the controllable stall which McGuire above boasts that he had no problem with. He says he pulled enough lead to get a shot in, but that does not necessarily mean that he just kept on pulling the stick harder and harder all through the buffeting.
So, what would have happened, if McGuire pulled the stick even harder despite the "yoke bucking and shuddering in his hands"? I say the P-38 would have spinned to one side and crashed, like any other plane. Which ironically and ultimately, killed McGuire on his last mission.
To sum it up even shorter, I think the reason the AH2 P-38 'snaps' to one side, despite its famous reputation for being resistant to violent stalls, is just because game pilots would frequently step over the line which should never have been crossed, torque or no torque. Like bozon said some time ago, if normal flow is cut off from the plane then anything can happen.
Remember, in real life the 'buffeting' itself, would have been something scary enough to motivate the pilot to back off on the controls. In AH2, we just ride the buffeting for fun - something IMO, only a seasoned expert would ever do in real life. And only when we go over that line, and the plane goes out of control, do we consider it as a 'stall' - despite the fact in real life, that would be a point which would have been considered something way beyond a normal, accelerated stall.
That being said, I'd not object if the P-38 pilots wanted a little more resistance to the 'roll' experienced at the point where the plane is already buffeting. When I tested the plane out, if started a turn and gently tightened it, the plane would start buffeting at some point (the 'McGuire point' as explained in Murdr's quoted account). If I pull a little bit even further than that, the plane would want to spin, just like any plane.
Given that the P-38 was especially notorious for its resistance and stability against spinning tendencies, I'd say it won't be too bad if the P-38 could resist a little more stck input and harder buffeting, before it 'snapped'.
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Yeah I mean those VSTOL flaps they're suppossed to by themselves lift the aircraft, don't worry about it am sure they'll find something to "fix" this problem quickly.
Instead of doing like the LW guys have done and learn to fly undermodeled planes for quite a while.
Quit your whining,Ameriwhiner!!! :D
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Kweassa,
I made no complaint about what happens at stall in varying conditions. All I did was answer others complaints. What happens seems to be modled very well. I have no idea why you would direct those comments toward me.
Tilley, not McGuire was the pilot in the example I posted performing the "90 mph" 360 on the deck. I do not believe this can be recreated under the current model due to both the rapid speed drop off, and the high stall speed.
I did make 2 observations. One is that the stall speeds appear high to me, which in subsequent posts, seems to be a consistant observation. The other is that the condition with the accelerated stall and maneuver flaps setting described by Ray Meskimen cant be recreated because the window between accelerated stall conditions under clean and maneuver configurations are more like a hairline crack instead of a window.
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Murdr,
Nor did I say you complained about it. I was merely using what you've kindly posted as a back-up material in answer to the other people who actually did complain about it. I just addressed it to you since you addressed the last account for me - thanks for it, by the way. :D
On part of measuring stall speeds - I actually found this procedure incredibly difficult - as I had to test it in some 6~7 attempts for individual planes... and I tested only the G and the J, by the way.
The problem was that the stall buffet does not show up in the film viewer, and also the auto-level function does not keep the plane really level - as stall speeds are reached, for some reason the auto-level function keeps dropping the pitch down a little bit so a small amount of descent rate is maintained. It's almost as if the auto-level function is trying to trade off a bit of altitude to try and maintain a condition as close to level flight as possible for the longest time possible.
Therefore, I had to manually fly the plane and keep them at 0 climbrate condition - which ofcourse was no easy task... and I disregarded both the sound and the visual buffet effect and used only the pitch-down momentum that threw off the climb rate, as an indicator of the power-off stall(since buffet doesn't show in flims anyway). Then I goto the film viewer, zoom in a bit at the climbrate indicator, wait until it suddenly sinks, pause the frame, and check the speed indicated on the information screen.
This way, I got figures pretty close to the ones in the report you've posted.
One last observation, is among the combat accounts, none of the pilots mention anything about flap usage being close to the full, landing position. Ironically, other pilots like Akak do report that while the plane flies within the limits of its first one or two notches, they don't feel any real difference with the plane.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
The 38 is so dweeby we have to give them clueless dweebfire and lgay7 pilots a chance. :t
I would have you know Kind Sir...I am NOT a clueless Dweebfire Pileit.
I have the Candlestick , rope , knife ,Col. Mustard , Ms. Scarlet , Professor Plum , the Den , Kitchen AND Library for clues....So:p :p :p
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Originally posted by Grits
Morph, keep in mind that those speeds and that behavior is describing a straight and level 1G attitude, whereas your example was not straight and level, even a very low G turn can make a plane (any plane) enter a spin/stall.
I am calling it like i see it. From AH1 though AH2 with the "new and improved FM". I dont beleive I'm wrong. Why? Because I flew the 38 for hundreds of hours in AH1 each tour. Then was hit with the "new and improved FM" and got a kick in the bellybutton with this fantastic new flat spin.
Keep on porkin em. If that's what brings in the bread, good for HT.
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Something I have noticed is all of the twin engine fighters seem to be much more prone to unrecoverable flat spins than single engine fighters are. I dont know why this would be so in R/L, but it is definately the case in AH. While I dont think the P-38 should be immune to flat spins, it should be harder to get into them than any other single or twin engine fighter because of the counter-rotating props.
Regarding the P-38 after the 2.07 patch, I dont fly it enough in general, and I have only flown it once since 2.07 so my experience with it is rather limited.
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Still my favorite 38 turning story, from a combat report done by a 370th FG pilot in July 44. He's flying a P38J-10. Note he fought the entire fight with his 500 pound bombs still on and he out turned that 109 on the deck.
He didn't use full flaps obviously, but he clearly mentions using his flaps. I think it speaks to what Murdr is talking about with the John Tilly comments.
Not meant as a comment on the AH 38s. The G still seems fine to me but that's the only 38 I fly, and I still won't get out of it!
Lt. Royal Madden, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
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Lockheed's Hanger Flying Issue: 6, test pilot Ray Meskimen
For greatest maneuverability we have found that the maneuvering flaps should be extended only long enough to complete the particular maneuver and then be retracted immediately. For example, in an effort to stay on an enemy's tail, you might feel in a tight turn the buffeting which is characteristic of an accelerated stall. You can "reef" her in and tighten your turn by lowering the maneuvering flaps until you have completed the maneuver, then retract them. By doing so immediately, little air speed is lost , and the plane is set again for maximum operations.
This quote has some good info about flap usage in combat.
Note how it is emphesized that flaps kill the speed and should be retracted immdiately.
As for adding lift for a short period the stall tests by people here seem to show that it does add lift and reduce stall speeds.
I can't tell if it's spot on, but it seems to work more like described above than before.
Bozon
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
how do you know it hasn't??
Maybe because it's the only plane I fly...
ack-ack
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*Chuckle
A P38 whine?
Yankywhiners?
No offence, you guys seem to be hurt.
How bad hit did P38 K/D ratio get because of this unwanted feature in flight behaviour?
:D
-C+
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Guess I wouldn't mind so much, if the arena wasn't crawling with la7 pukes and spittards.
I guess goal here is to create uber rides without perk cost, to keep new guys around, while at the same time porking the others.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
As for the P-51s, I'm hearing mixed opinions about it too - for instance, Magoo points out that he feels the P-51s are also heavily hit by the FM change,.
Yeah as I fly the P-51 about 95% of the time, I have noticed that it is now very unstable at low speed with 25% flaps and without 25% flaps. Any sudden nose up will cause a snap spin and a dirt nap.
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I guess goal here is to create uber rides without perk cost, to keep new guys around, while at the same time porking the others.
Or perhaps the goal here is to stop some planes weighing in at an average of over 15,000lbs from out-'hovering' planes that weigh less than half its weight, by exploiting the inexplicable stability shown with high degree of flap usage.
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A couple of issues here. 1- There is a bug in the last flap position that is making the drag go crazy high. That part is obvious when you take it from the 4th to the 5th notch and it acts like it just popped a drag chute.
2- You can't derive much from a table of IAS stall speeds from the pilot manual without also posting the airspeed calibration table. Otherwise it's either inconclusive or misleading. You also have to take the same thing into account when dealing with pilot anecdotes.
Here's the chart for the 38.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/p38ascal.jpg)
According to the chart, in a clean condition the IAS on the 38 is only accurate at 200 mph. Above that it displays too high and below that it displays too low. If the real plane was indicating 377, that would be a calibrated airspeed of 360. If the real plane was indicating 83, it was really doing 100.
In landing configuration, IAS is accurate at 140 mph and keeps getting lower as airspeed falls. At 89 mph IAS, its really doing 100 mph. It's not like that in the game so you can't compare the two without switching to CAS.
Even after the bug in the last flaps position is fixed, it's still going to be undesirable to go to full flaps in a dogfight for all but a few unusual conditions.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/images/pohstall.jpg)
This sounds nothing like the 38 in AH2.
Uncontroled most often unrecoverable flat spins from as high or higher than 15k down to the deck and into the dirt.
I have been flying the 38 for as long as I've been flying AH. In AH 1 there was almost no tendency for the plane to get into a flat spin. (Do a search) When AH2 came out, my first post about AH2's "new/better FM" tweaks was that the 38 now was able to enter a stall/flatspin that was hardly ever recoverable. I remember going afk ending up at 20k with a con on my long 6. I went to reverse slowly to meet nose to nose and before I could reverse fully I was in a stall and falling straight down... from 20k or so right into the water. It was an agressive reverse, but no more agressive than the 1000's of other times I've reversed with someone on my 6. My speed entering the reversal was aprox 250mph after I had been level for a short while.
Here's the next paragraph that follows the one you cited:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/p38spins.jpg)
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I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.
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Pyro, I have films of me literally falling out of the sky from 10k+ right on down into the deck. No amount of engine, rudder, aliron or elevator input makes a difference for the vast majority of these flat spins. Throtling 1 engine up or down, or both to slow the spin makes no difference either. It is nearly impossible to get the nose pointed down to regain air speed in most of these situations. This has ONLY happened when flying the 38 and a few of the other twin engine fighters.
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Originally posted by storch
I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.
Is that what you said when the 09's would do a back flip in a milisecond? I dont think so.
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Originally posted by storch
I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.
LOL so much for those of us Allied Iron drivers who supported getting the 109 to the level the 109 drivers seemed to believe was accurate :)
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Originally posted by Pyro
A couple of issues here. 1- There is a bug in the last flap position that is making the drag go crazy high. That part is obvious when you take it from the 4th to the 5th notch and it acts like it just popped a drag chute.
Even after the bug in the last flaps position is fixed, it's still going to be undesirable to go to full flaps in a dogfight for all but a few unusual conditions.
Glad to know that last position is a bug. I was checking it offline again in my old 38G and it just didn't want to fly with full flaps. Pushing it back to 4th notch and it felt better and would at least climb a bit.
What I do find is I'm much more aware of flap use in the 38G. I'm less apt to get slow and turn fight and am limiting myself to 'combat flaps' for the most part.
Not sure if that's a good thing or not :)
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Indeed.
Then it is confirmed that the observations on the full flaps by most people were correct - they do add a huge amount of drag. However, as it has been noted as a bug, then I'm sure it should be fixed pretty soon. I guess we'll just have to see what the fixed model flies like, to continue with this discussion.
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Originally posted by 38ruk
The low speed flight characteristics have definetly changed bug , if you aren't noticing ANYTHING, they your keeping it fast . The just above stall , full flap turn fight is a thing of the past with this new patch . Right or wrong , i cant say , ive never flown a real 38.
Slow speed character is the pork.. Its not right.
But if that is what HT wants then that is what we get to play with:(
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Pyro, I have films of me literally falling out of the sky from 10k+ right on down into the deck. No amount of engine, rudder, aliron or elevator input makes a difference for the vast majority of these flat spins. Throtling 1 engine up or down, or both to slow the spin makes no difference either. It is nearly impossible to get the nose pointed down to regain air speed in most of these situations. This has ONLY happened when flying the 38 and a few of the other twin engine fighters.
Did you retract your flaps as part of the recovery? The pitch caused by the flaps will prevent you from getting the nose down. I have this film (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=39) of intentionally flat stalling, inducing a spin, connecting a shot, and recovering, no problem.
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I fly the P-38 a lot myself.
It has already been said, so I will not beat a dead horse, but it is not the bird she was. If that is porked, fixed, or just right I have no idea, but I would take the P-38L prior the patch in a heart beat over what we have now. :(
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A lot of the characteristics seem to portray what was written in P38 reports which is good. For example when I tried to get airspeed for the stall test, 1 wing would dip down. Also the stall which leads to a flat spin seems correct as well. I have not gotten in a flat spin where I have lost too much alt without meaning to since the P38 stall was fixed in one of the earlier patches of AH2. If you get into a flat spin, throttle down 1 engine and turn full rudder in the direction of that one engine. It works with the mossie and 110 too. Most of the time anyway, 110 and Mossie have a bad tendancy to get into a flat spin upside down.
I'm glad to see I wasn't going crazy and it was confirmed something was amok with the full flap setting. What would happen to me was I would be in a fight and not be looking at how far down my flaps are and put down a 5th notch and lose airspeed at a very rapid rate.
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The only way i can get out of a flat spin is to use the individual throttles , and rpm controls . Depending on the direction of the spin , i try to pull the rpm , and manifold back to idle on the engine that is helping the spin . (If that makes any sense) I'm not gunna bullchit ya and say i know exactly how i do it , but ive been in 3 flat spins from 15+k , and by the time ive hit 3-5K ive got the nose to go down all three times, and have saved mself . IT's usually a big panic with me trying all sorts of throttle and rpm combo's when i pass 10k LOL 38
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Hmmm, maybe the bug fix will help then.