Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on April 04, 2006, 07:44:18 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190515,00.html
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Yea I was waiting to see if Toad would chime in on this.
Im not a big Pro-Union guy (duh) but these guys gave up 1/3 of their pay to help the company save their necks. Now they say its not enough. Management has historically screwed the pooch and now its down to the last glimmer of hope. I think the company is really hoping to make the pilots look like the "cause of death", which it isnt
Toad if I havent summarized it well, correct me. I've been following it on http://www.aero-news.net/ (http://www.aero-news.net/)
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Do the pilots win if Delta is no longer?
There is a time for confrontation and a time for cooperation.
Now is the time for the latter.
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Don't Pilots work 10 days a month a make 100k+ ....hell at least they work.
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Don't Pilots work 10 days a month a make 100k+
HAHAHA!...that was a good lugh :rofl
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Originally posted by Choocha
Don't Pilots work 10 days a month a make 100k+ ....hell at least they work.
Proof once again that you haven't a clue but you're ready to pontificate anyway.
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What you are seeing right now is "negotiation".
The 95% strike vote is a tool, like any other negotiating tactic.
The basis is this: the company and the union have gone to arbitration over the second round of pay cuts.
The pilots already previously agreed to $1billion in annual concessions, including a 32.5 per cent wage cut, in a five-year deal in 2004.
They have offered to take another 14 per cent temporary pay cut aimed at saving Delta $143m per year.
The company (suprise!) wants more than that. They want 18 percent and they don't want it temporary. That's a big point for the pilots because dear old DAL has hosed them more than once in the last 30 years getting them to take cuts and then giving everyone else in the company raises. So, the pilots now link cuts to "temporary" times that "snap back" when the rest of the company starts getting raises again.
The arbitration panel wrote both sides a letter telling them that BOTH sides were being unrealistic. They castigated both the pilots and the management and told BOTH sides that neither side would be happy with the arbitration ruling. The arbitrators suggested the company and pilots make a serious effort to settle before a ruling was handed down. Wise advice, I think.
Here's a few excerpts from a financial analyst on the situation:
There are two very distinct and different shows playing on stage right now at Delta Air Lines.
One is external - on the road -- in Washington, DC.
The other is internal - at home -- in Atlanta.
One is being played before a 3-man arbitration board.
The other is playing out before 50,000 loyal, active employees and another 40,000 retirees - all watching and waiting - to see if Delta Air Lines goes out of business - as the company continues to warn unless they get the maximum additional demands and concessions from the pilots.
The playwrights themselves -- Delta management -- wonder why there is little trust among the audience - an audience of faithful workers -- from every department -- generally regarded as smarter viewers than the average bear - and not easily fooled.
One must then ask, how can two very different simultaneous stage shows be a truthful and fair representation -- when they are vastly different in both script and content.
Observe and draw your own conclusions:
Two weeks ago (2/28) -- COO Jim Whitehurst told a packed house of 700+ employees at the GICC that in 2005, if Delta had just been an average legacy carrier -- we would have brought in another $2.5 billion in additional revenue.
In other words, if Delta had the same relative RASM numbers (revenue per available seat mile) as our competitors -- AMR, United, Northwest, USAir and Continental -- we would have been not only the most profitable - but the only profitable legacy carrier among the majors in 2005.
Jim told the standing room only crowd -- of mostly non-contract employees -- that we had a very good chance the airline would be "in the black" operationally in the next 12-18 months. I was in the audience. I did not mistake what Jim said or what I heard spoken on stage.
One then asks: How much is just being average worth to Delta? Again, Jim says it would yield an additional $2.5 billion in revenue if we just catch up - and be on par with the other guys - who pay for the same fuel and have competitors of their own.
Next observation:
On Delta's website -- is a copy of the most current interview from the December NewsDigest with Glen Hauenstein, Delta's new Executive VP of Network and Revenue Management - whom we hired away from Continental in 2005, along with Bob Cortelyou - also from Continental.
Both gentlemen came to Delta because they saw an extensive opportunity to shine -- not suffer defeat. In fact, listening to and watching Glen Hauenstein, there is a certain "glee" in his optimism about the potential he feels certain we can and should achieve and thus, surpass the competition.
Jim, Glen, and Bob each project a "fight's on" attitude. They appear motivated to not rest until we succeed. Their mantra? We will not tolerate or accept any more excuses about our past failure to produce better results. We have the routes and the assets. We will do better.
From the December 5th interview with Glen, he clearly states that during the first nine months of 2005, Delta only achieved 85% of the RASM realized by the other network/legacy carriers. That additional 15% "shortfall" is worth -- in his estimate -- the same $2.5 billion in additional revenue to Delta - that Jim spoke of two weeks ago on stage at the GICC in Atlanta.
Jim and Glen - both agree on the numbers and the potential already being realized with the latest changes to our scheduling and increased route efficiencies - day to day.
Closing the gap on that 15% shortfall and additional $2.5 billion is what Glen and Bob Cortelyou were hired to do. Thus far, they appear to be making positive strides toward achieving parity with our competitors and "getting it done".
In January, Delta's year over year revenue jumped by 14% from the preceding year. By chance? By luck? No. By being smarter.
As Jim pointed out two weeks ago at the GICC, Delta had built the best route structure in the industry..for the last century. A large fleet of RJs were a good feeder mechanism to the hubs - until everyone else started getting them too.
The parallel focus on increasing our International flying from 20% to 35% of the total will also significantly help close the gap with respect to increased RASM. The moves at JFK, designed to feed our newly proclaimed International "hub" with more passengers is the kind of productivity and increased efficiency that wasn't being done prior to the arrival of these newly hired, motivated thinkers - who've joined the team.
Continued
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Continued
These guys are on a mission to succeed - the fresh blood we needed to feel hungry again. It's the same reason a JetBlue or Song becomes successful -- and popular.
There is a sense of purpose in every action and decision made - a driving desire to excel, to be the best -- and prove it -- with actions - each day. At the same time, those kinds of employees are building pro-active trust and respect with action - not words.
So this is one very important scene -- Act I -- being played out in Atlanta - live and on stage every day. Sounds promising and not at all similar to the doom and gloom being heard in the nation's capital this past week.
The other act -- Act II -- also live and on stage - is being played out in Washington, DC the next few weeks.
How very different is the script being heard by the audience watching and listening to Act II at the Marriott hotel in DC. Tickets are still vaialble.
In fact, is it possible we are watching the same play about the same company?
While COO Whitehurst and VP of Revenue Hauenstein are touting increasing our numbers by a couple billion - if we can just manage to achieve "average" status among our peers -- the company negotiators/lawyers are telling the world, the press, and three arbitrators that Delta is doomed if the company doesn't secure more deep sacrifices -- another 1/3 of a billion dollars -- from the pilots -- those lowly harbingers of destruction and greed.
ALPA and the company have been haggling over a couple hundred million for months - the equivalent of less than 2% of the company's operating revenue in a single year.
At this point, if the reported numbers are anywhere close - ALPA says they are offering an additional $140 million -- today -- on top of the $1 billion already contributed by the pilots in the past 12-15 months.
The company says they still need an additional $305 million. Or all bets are off.
Something was rotten in Denmark - and now in DC and Dixie.
Between the intelligent efforts being put forth to significantly increase revenue being touted in Atlanta and the dire straits of a sinking ship being portrayed by company attorneys at the Marriot Hotel in DC - there is a major disconnect between Act I and Act II.
And folks wonder why trust has been an issue the past couple years???
The two sides are now only supposedly $165 million apart on securing a deal.
How about the large amount of money the company saved six months ago, as well as now, by not making the required payments into the pilot's Defined Benefit retirement fund? Have we seen any credit given for that sacrificial lamb?
How about the additional savings realized by abruptly stopping all "Unqualified" dollars being paid to pilot retirees who earned every dollar of that money. What value has been contributed to the company pot by denying those promises to these men and women?
Or don't those dollars count towards the effort because they were "Unqualified"?
Every contract negotiated during a Delta pilot's career included the value of those "Unqualified" dollars, lest anyone forget that fact.
There's something else that deserves clarification and more attention with respect to those retirement dollars referred to as "Unqualified".
"Unqualified" is a bad term. Makes it sound like they weren't earned or were given out as extra compensation -- like a goodwill bonus or maybe a SERP -- or not really part of the benefits due to those retirees. Nothing could be further from the truth. The term "Unqualified" projects the wrong connotation of that well-earned value promised to those folks in retirement. Somebody along the way -- with the integrity and power to do so -- needs to right that wrong when we make money again.
But like every other crisis situation at Delta, those retired pilots have swallowed that bitter pill in stride - and continue to hope for the best. Many I talk with are not only saddened but have moved into the realm of both disgust and disbelief - a dark place they said they never thought they could ever go in their hearts and minds with regard to Delta.
At some point - which may be the crux of ALPA's current stance - there is a breaking point where you have to stop subsidizing bad decisions and a lack of good faith.
One might also ask - how much is being frittered away on legal fees and other resources? How much revenue has already been lost with book-aways over the last 3 months?
Arbitrator Richard Bloch's assessment with Monday's opening remarks was that both sides have failed at the collective bargaining process. Appropriate assessment - except I believe it to be one side not negotiating -- not both -- knowing the players in the play.
How much time and effort is being spent on squeezing every last nickel from our Delta pilot group vs. focusing on the real enemy - JetBlue, AirTran, AMR, and United?
Deep down, many want to see us avoid a strike, focus on crushing the competition, and be successful again. Who doesn't? (Other then a large contingent of our F/O's -- who feel cheated and lied to - repeatedly. Last time we told them we were going to grow the airline we ordered a large fleet of RJs. Who can blame them? They know what they see.)
As I've mentioned many times, the same strong personalities we specifically hired to be our future Captains and leaders are the same folks who are now willing to draw a line in the sand. It should be no surprise why.
Even a casual observer would have to ask how two very different scenes at the same company are being played on these two stages.
During testimony in DC before the arbitration panel this week, Ed Bastian, Delta's CFO, made it sound as though Delta is so fragile -- on literal egg shells -- that if we don't get the additional sacrifices from the pilots - the equivalent of about 2% of our total operating revenue in a single year - that it's over. The fat lady's warming up.
Shutter the doors. Send the airplanes to the bone yard. We're barely keeping her afloat. People are up at night wondering how we're possibly getting through the next day without the additional dollars from the pilots.
Something's not adding up here with respect to the true, honest, forthright health of the patient.
If we don't survive it won't be because the company didn't squeeze that last $305 million from the pilots - 2% of the company's total $15 billion size.
Delta Air Lines is a $15 billion company. It takes roughly $40 million a day to run Delta. $40 million x 365 days = $14.6 billion.
The difference between the company demands ($305 million) and what ALPA is offering ($140 million) is about four days' revenue.
There is still $2 billion in DIP financing available and revenue coming in daily. Are GE, Citibank, JP Morgan, Merrill, and Boeing really going to sit idle and let Delta close the doors -- for good?
A spade is a spade. And someone in a management/leadership position needs to call it.
It's the only way to start re-building the trust - at every level.
If we don't survive the current stand-off and continuing uncertainty, it will be because ultimately we lost all trust in the leadership, and consequently -- the spirit and the will to compete in a tough business - where your employees make the difference.
It will be because our leaders forgot the intrinsic value of the most valuable resource at any company -- its people.
Too many family livelihoods and futures are at stake.
This is not how Delta Air Lines grew up resolving differences -- and prospered.
Richard Bloch is right. We have failed at the collective bargaining process - at the increasing expense of the morale and faith of our current employees and retirees.
As has always been the case throughout Delta's history - the deal gets done when the company wants it to get done.
Shame on those who have the experience, the knowledge, the resources, and most of all -- the power -- to make the difference.
That pretty well sums it up. DAL can be a going concern but the BS has to stop now.
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Originally posted by Toad
What you are seeing right now is "negotiation".
The 95% strike vote is a tool, like any other negotiating tactic.
The Eastern Airlines mechanics union used the very same tactic. Been on an EAL flight lately?
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them delta pilots must be pissed ;)
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Let's not forget to mention the fact that the average salary of Delta pilots was still $157,000 per year after the 32% pay cut.
There is a fundamental flaw in the last part of your quoted material that negates the entire thesis of 'something rotten in Denmark.'
Total company obligations (fringed costs) are 3 times unfringed employee salary. That's a glaring error. Who the heck is that 'financial analyst?'
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American Financial Advisors LLC, Mike Stark.
Holden, would things have been better at Eastern if the Mechs had not struck? Anyone in the industry at the time that understood Lorenzo KNEW that he was going to fold the airline no matter what AND it was obvious long before the vote.
As for salaries, the 2001 contract was the first time the DAL pilot salaries were ever "industry leading". From 1980 until that time, DAL contracts usually ranked salary either 3, 4 or 5 amongst the "big five". With this one exception... and it wasn't by much $, DAL was always "market rate".
I understand that a lot of folks think a pilot isn't worth the money. Tell me, in the non-aviation world, what do you pay the manager of a $130 million factory? Consider that if the manager is found lacking in skills, the factory will be totally destroyed and 200+ lives lost in the blink of an eye. What kind of remuneration does that sort of responsibility draw in the "management ranks"?
Lastly, is it wise... for either side... to destroy the airline while arguing over 4 days revenue? Wouldn't it be easier to meet in the middle and reevaluate after a year if necessary? The DAL pilots have never refused to negotiate mid-term at management's request. Never.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Eastern Airlines mechanics union used the very same tactic. Been on an EAL flight lately?
I was going to bring up the IAM strike led by Mr. Charlie Bryan, the union idiot that effectively put the South Florida economy into an economic crisis from 1989-1991 as well as shutting down a great airline. The problem was that idiot bryan, he effective drove frank borman out of eastern allowing corporate raider lorenzo to step in and gut the airline. where are all those $25.00 1989 dollar per hour machinists now? making $18.00 hour and still performing hack work. unions are no good they are a labor racket and nothing more.
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I'm pretty sure they work 10 days a month and make 100k +
see Rolex's thread FROG
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Originally posted by Choocha
I'm pretty sure they work 10 days a month and make 100k +
see Rolex's thread FROG
Choocha, Toad WAS a pilot.
Toad, correct me if I am wrong, but don't captains make 6 digits after a certain amount of senority?
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Pilot,
Pfft....Was he pulling banners on the beach, spraying crops ..or what? I feel sorry for those guys but the Union that rep's the "heavy's" has a scam going. I know a few pilots...one fly's to Korea twice a month and thats it. makes like 200k.
good scam if you got it....
GO JET BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unfortunately ... not all Delta employees are pilots. Nor are they union. And they don't get to negotiate. ;)
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When it comes to airline pilots pay, I tend to feel they earn every dollar. My best friend is a American Airlines pilot doing the regional jets. If he's home 3 days in a month, that's pretty remarkable. He used to be based out of Boston, so he could get home more often, but they shoved him to Chicago (low seniority). So between the away from home time and some of the crap weather they have to fly in...I'm all for that professional, experienced dude being up front. There are some things you hate to go cheap on.
Choocha...you're just showing your ignorance trying to post a few witty retorts. Give it up.
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LePaul,
You fail to understand whats going on. It's true that regional guys get boned. I know one that was on wellfare to support his family. THATS WRONG.
THE UNION FOR THE HEAVY's IS DIFFRENT AND THEY GOT A SERIOUS SCAM GOING.
LePaul,
Do some reasearch before spouting off.
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I've done much more than you, if you bother to follow the thread.
But by all means, continue to be a tard. We all appreciate the entertainment
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Originally posted by Choocha
Pilot,
Pfft....Was he pulling banners on the beach, spraying crops ..or what? I feel sorry for those guys but the Union that rep's the "heavy's" has a scam going. I know a few pilots...one fly's to Korea twice a month and thats it. makes like 200k.
good scam if you got it....
GO JET BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
^^^
Always nice to see some box shifter, siding hanger or professional student 'pffft' the guys that did the homework, got the degrees, joined the service, flew in combat and pilot todays airliners. Guys that daily hold in their hands the lives of hundreds.. thousands of citizens. Guys that worked for next to nothing for 10-15 years to gain the experience and finally get to the top of their carreers only to have their skill set and competence and the pay they get as a reward for their lifetime of work'pffft'ed.
those 'people' ( i use the term loosely.. for 'people' comes with some aura of right to suck air) are normally just jealous lil chits that have no prospects, didn't bother to get an education, never served and couldn't because they can't pass a piss test or a math test.
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Hangtime,
This is a UNION issue. Between the haves and the have not's....between the regionals and heavy's.
Don't make this personal.
UNION's try to protect thier GRAVY TRAINS. However, in a free market, the laws of economics will catch up. Unless, of course, government intervenes (see FRANCE or Bush with steel tariffs) but in the end, you cannot hide forever (again see FRANCE).
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Originally posted by Toad
Holden, would things have been better at Eastern if the Mechs had not struck?
It certainly didn't help... anyone...
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after years of flying USAir i changed to southwest, nice new planes, friendly people, good service, CHEAP SEATS.
$49 tampa to pittsburgh one way, how do they do it? maybe they how to run a airline.
i saw a interview with jetblue's founder, the reporter said "your business plan is very similar to southwest's"
he replied" it's not just similar, it's exactly the same , we copied it"
the "legacy" airlines will change or go out of business.
the "hub and spoke" system works great when your shipping boxes, it doesnt work with people.
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Exactly
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Everyone pretty much pays market rate, Toad. This may be more about changing that market rate? Stark is a retired USMC aviator who earns his living now managing Delta employees 401k's, right? He is a personal asset advisor and not a financial analyst. Big difference. Sorry if my comment seemed negative (if he is a friend), but it is obvious he doesn't have any experience in private industry, corporate finance or corporate 'mindset.'
As I've said before to you, I don't presume to know enough about the technical aspects of the industry to preach anything. We've both been part of these types of negotiations in the past, on opposite sides of the table, so we could probably counter punch all day... but let's not. ;)
Taking the traditional tack about pilot responsibility wouldn't carry much weight in arbitration. The analogy to management compensation would be dismissed in the arbitrators' mind and would likely leave a lingering negative image. Not a good strategy, and here's why:
Pilot qualifications are blessed by the FAA, thus the company needs not even respond to such a claim. Silence wins big since the argument is flawed in that the pilot is not a full-time steward of the asset, has no fiduciary responsibility, makes no hiring decisions, does not have P&L responsibilty or manage the financing, marketing or maintenance of the asset.
The pilots are the skilled operator specialists of the asset.
Now, that is not to say that they are not professionals deserving of respect. All employees are deserving of equal respect for their contribution.
I will defer, as always, to your logbook and experience, but even us non-ATP rated guys understand that self reservation trickles down to enhance the safety of passengers and the asset. If we are safe, the passengers will be also.
I saw something the other day that the ranking member of the Congressional Commerce sub-committe during the deregulation period recently said that if the members could have seen what the industry looks like today, they would never had voted for deregulation.
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Originally posted by Choocha
Between the haves and the have not's....
Yup. For you.. a 'I have not the skill, education or training or experience to do this job, or I'd be on the gravy train too' and the guys that have the skills and have been doing the job. This is actually between those that have put the time in, earned their retirement pay, signed contracts with the job provider and expect the folks that signed those deals to stick to the contract. These ain't plumbers, they ain't screw installers.. they are pilots entrusted with the passenger lives, the airlines reputation and most expensive technologicaly sophisticated pieces of equipment in play in todays economy.
Being a professional commerical airline pilot is not about being on a 'gravy train'.. and reducing it to a union catcall is neither appropriate to the issue or fair to the pilots. I don't see delta's administrators, stewards and mechanics sucking up a 25% pay cut to save their ****ing company.. do you?
Finally.. when I walk up to one of those monsters on the runway, I don't think I'd be too charmed to consider the operator a scab that's sitting in that cockpit because he's got bare minimum skills and willing to work for peanuts. 'cheapest bidder' mentality only plays when it's somebody else's bellybutton in the firing line.. right?
But hey... that's just me.
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""they are pilots entrusted with the passenger lives,"" you do realize that the pilot is on the same plane as the passengers? i think it's in the pilots self interest that he fly and land safely.
back on topic, i saw a break out of the income and cost of airlines per pass seat/miles.
the legacy airlines had twice the income per seat as southwest or jetblue but their costs were 4times the costs of SW or JB.
so with twice the income per seat they are still losing money, they have to cut costs or go the way of the dinosaurs.
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It doesn't matter the training or experience you have, you're gonna have no luck milking a dry cow.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I don't see delta's administrators, stewards and mechanics sucking up a 25% pay cut to save their ****ing company.. do you?
Yes ... I do. Be careful making claims you know nothing about. :D
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(http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/Humor/pilotcartoon.jpg)
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:rofl
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It certainly didn't help... anyone...
It wouldn't have made the least bit of difference either way.
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Originally posted by john9001
the "hub and spoke" system works great when your shipping boxes, it doesnt work with people.
The hub and spoke system was EXCELLENT for carrying passengers when only one airline was doing it and everyone else was laughing at them for doing so.
That's when we made extreme profits.
When the others in the "Big Five" woke up and started doing it, the huge advantages of hub and spoke were pretty much negated.
Think pendulum. It won't be long before "hub and spoke" is castigated as the ruination of the industry and everyone will be point-to-point again. Which will leave an opening for one carrier to start hubbing again.... and so on, and so on, and so on.
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Rolex,
How much are you paid?
I'm guessing as much as you can convince your employer(s) to pay you? I'm sure "market rate" figures into it a bit.
How is it any different? The pilots negotiated for as much as they could convince their employer to pay them;"market rate" was a primary factor. That they were successful isn't a reason to castigate them for trying. Should they have asked for far less then their peers at other airlines were already being paid?
Stark is managing up over a billion maybe two, IIRC. He must have some "analyst" ability to do that successfully, don't you think? He is successful.
Pilot responsibility ISN'T an arbitration factor. It's a fact of life. Look around you in the economy. People that do things that get people killed get paid handsomely for their skills if they can do them without killing people. The pilots are indeed the skilled operator specialists of the asset. I think it's evident the skilled operator specialists of extremely expensive machines that can cause huge loss of life if mishandled get well paid in every part of society.
I saw something the other day that the ranking member of the Congressional Commerce sub-committe during the deregulation period recently said that if the members could have seen what the industry looks like today, they would never had voted for deregulation.
I'd say that guy gets the "DUH!" award.
Nonetheless, the industry will survive, will reinvent itself and will become profitable again. At least the airlines with intelligent management will do so. That means probably 50% casualties unless some intelligent managment can be found.
Think Southwest. IIRC, they've lost money in only one year of their existence. Ponder this: Their pilots get essentially the same pay as DAL pilots did before the cut. Fly the same equipment, actually get MORE days off per month BUT the company has managed to schedule so efficiently that SW pilots fly about 5-7 hours more per month than a DAL pilot.
This was pointed out by management in the 2001 negotiation. DAL work rules were compared to SW work rules and management wanted to "cherry pick" the SW contract for rules to put in our contract.
The union offered to accept the current SW contract in toto, not piecemeal.
Management lost interest.
Go figure.
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I smell an analogy:
South West, Jet Blue = Toyota, Honda
Delta, US Airways = GM, Ford
The snake, once constricted around your neck, never gives up...........
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Rainman voice: "About $100."
I've had my resume out for a while, but nobody picked me up.
When I first started my business, there were times when I didn't pay myself anything, Toad. I had to pay employees, or pay off debt, or buy equipment or supplies, or pay taxes, or pay ex-wives...
Anyway, I've been an employer, not an employee, for 25 years. Not having a boss has it's good points, for sure. But, it also means that I've never had anyone I could complain to about my working conditions or pay. ;)
Naw, I don't blame them for trying. I have a friend working in Atlanta as a Honeywell contractor to Delta (after about 18 years outside the US for other airlines). I spent some time with him the last time I went through there and he told me some horror stories of mismanagement. One or both sides are being unreasonable if a strike happens.
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Originally posted by Choocha
UNION's try to protect thier GRAVY TRAINS. However, in a free market, the laws of economics will catch up. Unless, of course, government intervenes (see FRANCE or Bush with steel tariffs) but in the end, you cannot hide forever (again see FRANCE).
Obviously you don't have a clue , you canno't compare US unions to French unions.
They simply don't work the same way.
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I can't help but note that the topic of this thread, "Delta Strike" would make a great title for a Chuck Norris movie.
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straffo,
semantics
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hu ?
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Originally posted by Rolex
Naw, I don't blame them for trying... One or both sides are being unreasonable if a strike happens.
Bingo.
EVERYBODY tries to maximize income.
They aren't that far apart. It'll be monumental stupidity on both sides if they don't reach an agreement.
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The snake, once constricted around your head, has made your condition permanent.
Ponder this: Southwest - basically a profit every single year save one.
Delta - Ups and Downs with good years and bad. The Pilots offered to accept the SW contract verbatim; management turned down the offer.
If it's the PILOT CONTRACT that makes the difference.... why didn't they take the SW contract?
Could it possibly be poor management that makes them unable to compete with SW?
I generally don't argue with a fence post, so... adios.
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Originally posted by Toad
Could it possibly be poor management that makes them unable to compete with SW?
Poor management? Okay I guess you could call it that, but legacy carriers have inherited a poor business plan and changing from that plan to the new plan is going to cause some pain.
SW only flies 737's, last I checked. All flight crews can fly any equipment, all maintenance crews can work on all equipment, supply chain for spare parts is streamlined. Much less cost that a dozen different model a/c.
SW hedged on its fuel costs a few years ago,and spikes in fuel cost do not effect SW very much. (at least until the fuel contract is up)
If a strike is called, everyone involved will lose money. If the status quo is maintained the airline will fold and everyone will lose money.
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It funny how Frog is quick to blame management. Typical Union slappy...doesn't matter if your flying an airplane or clean the **** off the bathroom floor. They are all the same...
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Poor management? Okay I guess you could call it that, but legacy carriers have inherited a poor business plan and changing from that plan to the new plan is going to cause some pain.
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Glad you agree; "legacy" carriers do have pooor business plans and it's OBVIOUS the managers are responsible for that plan.
SW only flies 737's, last I checked. All flight crews can fly any equipment, all maintenance crews can work on all equipment, supply chain for spare parts is streamlined. Much less cost that a dozen different model a/c.
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Yep. Who makes those decisions? Management. I know for a FACT that our union offered contract incentives to simplify the fleet back in the late '80's and '90's. We were told to do our job and they'd do theirs. The result was they bought MORE different types and we ended up with 13 different aircraft in the fleet.
SW hedged on its fuel costs a few years ago,and spikes in fuel cost do not effect SW very much. (at least until the fuel contract is up)
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That's one thing they learned from DAL. DAL was the first to significantly hedge; even formed a subsidiary, Epsilon, to do so. Unfortunately, the later management let that go to heck too.
If a strike is called, everyone involved will lose money. If the status quo is maintained the airline will fold and everyone will lose money.
True. However, as has been noted, the pilot's have already agreed to take another 14% cut along with the previous 34% which would have them working at nearly 50% below previous wages and at rates that are significantly lower than any major carrier at this time.
Common sense would dictate that the company and the union compromise over the remaining 4% in dispute and go for 2%.
I think that is what will happen.
Then, if the airline can't make it with pilots working for 52% of their previous wage and ranking at the bottom of the majors in pay.... it'll once again be on the the shoulders of the B-school boys.