Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ujustdied on April 05, 2006, 04:47:08 PM
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ive been flying this p51 for quite a while and it really seems that its turning radius is alot bigger. what i mean is, is that it doesnt turn like it used to i mean its stalling in a turn fight and beraly (when gets below 200MPH) stays up. it seems like it ways 500 pounds more then it was before. i can beraly even do a lag roll dog figthing some 1and before it seems i could out turn any 1. :cry
is any 1 else having the problem.
thanks,
catfish6
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dont you ever stop b***hing about things
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Fly a 109 For a while. I doubt you will complain about the P51 anymore.
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Originally posted by sharp8th
dont you ever stop b***hing about things
:lol
Have you been turn fighting with Zeke's in that pony?
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no but its just like it feels 500 pounds heavier it just seems like it has gone through a bug change
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Originally posted by ujustdied
no but its just like it feels 500 pounds heavier it just seems like it has gone through a bug change
The fun of using the Spits for turn fighting down low & slow in the weeds and trees, are now also just as crapy .......
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You can't win in turn fights? Larger turn radius? Are you piloting it correctly? Make sure you're not going too fast, use your rudder and flaps and you're bound to give the enemy a run for their money.
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Make sure Thrust Vectoring is enabled.
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Originally posted by BigR
Make sure Thrust Vectoring is enabled.
:lol
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Check your ordnance load in the hanger, as well as the fuel load.
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how about a dose of reality in how the 51 should turn... All the drivers I know say keep it above 200 or you're a smoking hole.
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Yup Yup just as Bodhi says.... I once talked to a real P51 WWII pilot and he said if you dont do anything else in a P51 you always keep it above 200 and never even 200 without the nose at least level or in a descent. ....Its just a target under 200
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Well, I wouldnt reccomend being under 200 in anything unless you were in a position of advantage. Thats harldy unique to the P-51.
Anything in the MA is a "target" under 200.
Be that as it may, he may have issues with ord load or fuel that he wasnt aware of.
Also stick calibration issues, ect.
And of course, practice makes perfect.
We all assume that folks that ask Q. here are vets who know all this stuff inside and out, but thats not the case.
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I think some perspective is in order here. Check out kweassa's post on turn rates and you'll see the P51-D and B feature in the bottom 1/4 or so of the list. The P51 can out turn a number of things, but it never was, and never will be a stall-fighter. If you want to prevail in angles fighting try a spit mk8 or 16 or a zeke or N1k.
If you still think the P51 is a mongrel, then (and im quite serious when i suggest this, as its exactly what im doing this tour) fly a P47-D or N for a tour, then your (and my) beloved pony will feel like it handles on rails.
Also try the P51-B or the P51-D with only 4 50 cals, and only take 50% fuel and the drop-tanks. Drop ya tanks when ya need to get jiggy and fly it to its strengths and its a real monster.
When you say it doesnt turn like it used to, then nor does any plane in the plane set. AH flight model has been through numerous changes over the years, some small, some not so small. But all the changes will always apply across all the planes in the planeset at any given time, so any planes relative performance to others wont really change. Further i dont think HTCs latest change has altered its characteristics much at all.
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Prop, what I was specifically refering to was the 51's wonderful little habit of snapping into a violent spin below 200 kts. when in maneuvers...
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"try a spit mk8 or 16 or a zeke or N1k"
As much as I have nothing against Spits and N1K2s it would be nice to see players trying to master other types.
I think we vets are partially responsible for all the TB rides, because when we get asked a Q, we just say "try a Spit or a N1K", and so we get what we deserve.
Master the 51 first, then go on to some other type, nothing wrong with that, hell, maybe he will take a liking to Yaks or something.
...and stay away from LA-7s they are a crappy ride.
:)
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no i dont use ord but i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul but it seems like the stall really hurts it. it just seems like it added 500 axtra pounds. i used to fly the nik before this plane and man can that thing turn. it almost seems like it can turn better. as for spits and la7s i just leave thoughs plane for the newbs.
catfish6
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Originally posted by ujustdied
i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul...
define what you mean by 'out-turn'.
Do you mean an 'on-the-buzzer' stall fight? Are you referring to sustained turn rate or instaneous turn rate??
The P51 has very respectable instananeous turn-rate, but it sustained turn rate is significantly less than par.
Check this out for emperical evidence of the P51s sustained turn rate relative to other planes in the AH2 stable.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592)
She is hardly a turn'n burn plane...
It has a nice instantaneous turn rate, but thats something quite different.
Originally posted by ujustdied
i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul...
Anyone who knows anything about getting the most from a P51 would know that trying to 'out turn' most fighters is playing seriously away from the P51s key strengths and into the hands of other better sustained-turning planes - which is 70% of the fighter plane-set.
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Originally posted by Spatula
The P51 can out turn a number of things, but it never was, and never will be a stall-fighter. If you want to prevail in angles fighting try a spit mk8 or 16 or a zeke or N1k.
I beg to differ kitchen utensil... :)
I'm not sure what you classify as a good stall fighter. Could you give some examples? Not being sarcastic...I just don't know what the list of top 10 stall fighters are....
For me the pony is a GREAT stall fighter. While it doesn't have the acceleration of some planes (Spit 16, La 7) it is a very clean ride and keeps energy well in the vertical. I often 'rope a dope' in the pony with reasonable success. K14s, G10s and Lalas must be dealt with carefully, but most other planes can be roped up with ease.
I just use rudder when I'm stalling at the top, flick the nose down and get a nice top shot on most NMEs.
Now, D pony is heavier and has nastier snap roll, but the B pony is a joy in a stall fight...just doesn't always get the job done in 1 pass w- only 4x .50 cals.
My 2 cents.
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One day Ill try that B51, sounds neat.
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p51 is plane that won the war!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by kamilyun
I beg to differ kitchen utensil... :)
I'm not sure what you classify as a good stall fighter. Could you give some examples? Not being sarcastic...I just don't know what the list of top 10 stall fighters are....
For me the pony is a GREAT stall fighter. While it doesn't have the acceleration of some planes (Spit 16, La 7) it is a very clean ride and keeps energy well in the vertical. I often 'rope a dope' in the pony with reasonable success. K14s, G10s and Lalas must be dealt with carefully, but most other planes can be roped up with ease.
I just use rudder when I'm stalling at the top, flick the nose down and get a nice top shot on most NMEs.
Now, D pony is heavier and has nastier snap roll, but the B pony is a joy in a stall fight...just doesn't always get the job done in 1 pass w- only 4x .50 cals.
My 2 cents.
Hmmm, ok seems we are talking about different things. What i mean by 'stall-fighting' (and a widely accepted definition of it), is basically an extreme angles-fight taken to your and your enemies sustained-turn limits (eg on the edge of a stall trying to out-turn each other to gain angular advantage by turning at the maximum turn rate your a/c can manage without falling out of the sky).
If thats what you also mean, then examples can be found here:
Kweassa's Sustained Turn Rate Compendium (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592)
This clearly shows some 70% of all of the AH2 fighters as having a sustained turn-rate advantage over the P51-D. I can also personally vouch for those figures from years of experience.
From what i gather from your reply, is that you mean 'stall fighting' as a planes ability to zoom up higher than your enemy and be able to hammerhead over (stalled-nose-over) and shoot at the scrambling bogey. Then if this is what you mean, then you are 1/2 way right. The P51 is neither the master of the zoom climb nor by any stretch the worst. Zoom climb ability is a combination of all sorts of things, none of which are what this thread is about (as is my understanding).
Im not claiming to the best P51 pilot here, but i have spent 95% of my time in AH1 and AH2 in one, so i feel qualified to add my opinion. I still stand by claim the P51 aint no turn-fighter, never was, never will be. Im not saying you cant turn fight in it, you can, but its not the best tactic to employ for that a/c as you are not using its full potential by doing that.
I have not noticed any significant change to the P51s flight characteristics in the last patch. Sure it buffets now when you start stalling it, but the answer is painfully simple, dont get it that slow... (unless of course your roping someone :D )
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To answer your question Catfish6, yes I too am having problems with the P51. Before the latest downloads I was progressing right along with the Mustang and now I'm learning it all over again.
Turns like a fat pig and I haven't figured out how to correct this?? Has to be a way... I have no illusion of out turning a Spit or Zero but a D-Hog (and everything else) swing around on my six SO FAST, any speed and ALT. Then I can never shake them without wing support.
I try to think ahead, make good moves but...?? I've gone back to being cannon fodder... At least until I figure this "new" plane config out.
The solution is out there. (que music to the X-Files)
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Turns like a fat pig and I haven't figured out how to correct this?? Has to be a way... I have no illusion of out turning a Spit or Zero but a D-Hog (and everything else) swing around on my six SO FAST, any speed and ALT. Then I can never shake them without wing support.
That's simply because the F4U is that much better a turner than the P-51.
List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius at normal flight conditions
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F4U-1D: 216.4m
F4U-1: 219.2m
F4U-4: 227.2m
F4U-1C: 242.1m
P-51B: 243.9m
P-47D-11: 250.5m
P-51D: 258.6m
List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with first notch of flaps
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F4U-1D: 201.5m
F4U-1: 206.2m
F4U-4: 207.5m
F4U-1C: 213.5m
P-51B: 213.7m
P-51D: 224.2m
List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with full flaps
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F4U-4: 144.7m
F4U-1D: 148.7m
F4U-1: 150.9m
F4U-1C: 156.6m
P-51D: 189.4m
P-51B: 193.1m
For a small comparison, the P-51D has a 42.2m larger turning radius than the F4U-1D at normal flight. That's roughly parallel to the amount of difference in turning radius between an A6M2 Zero and the Spit9.
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Originally posted by sharp8th
dont you ever stop b***hing about things
Nap time??
Yea the p51 is getting worse. Me and skatsr have been trying to outturn spits in it. We could before the new patch. Cant after it.
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Originally posted by viper215
Nap time??
Yea the p51 is getting worse. Me and skatsr have been trying to outturn spits in it. We could before the new patch. Cant after it.
And this is wrong why? Sounds like a fix to me.
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i actually find it more stable now but thats probably because i back off when it vibrates now... no i can't turn with a spit anymore but then they still not much of a problem..the pony might not turn with a spit but most spit pilots it will turn against if not with and for those pilots that are smart enough to fight the vertical fight with ya it can just leave behind as long as you got some alt the pony maitains e better then the spitties do.. the pony still a decent stall fighter as long as you keep it vertical and only against the heavier birds but stall fighting in the MA is a death sentence what ever you are in...but the facts are the pony is a E fighter and E=speed & alt the less u have of one the more you need of the other....
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51B seems a bit different after the patch for sure, but I'm still out angling whatever turn fighter you want (depending on who the other gamer is)... it just took a little getting used to which was actually a minor challenge to figure out.
Maybe lots of folks don't like to climb out to 13-15 or 20K, but up there is where the B performs best. Dip below 10k and it'll feel heavier, yoyo between 8 and 13k while sniping those below and IMO its mostly the same.
Besides, those of you who think it takes "skill" to play a game, and those who think they have such "skill" should have no problems... employ your alleged skill, overcome the difference, and be done with it... that's what having skill is all about.
Hey, you can even write a "skill manifesto" to share your pearls of gaming wisdom with the unwashed skill less masses.
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I think players often attribute not being about to out turn X plane because of FM changes, when in reality, it had everything to do with a specific encounter.
The Spits you out turned before, what fuel load did they have, E states, skill of the pilots, combat trim on or off? How do you know?
Too often the 1st thing folks say is "the FM changed" < and don't think of all the other reasons it may be.
Btw I killed a Spit 16 in my 51D last night, coalt merge at 15k, down to the deck, in a stall fite. So, it can still happen, but that doesnt "prove" a FM change because this or that happened to you. Sometimes a player stalls a Spit, sometimes not, every fight is different. Some cant fly N1K2s worth beans.
...Personally I find the 51s able turn very well, as long as they arent carrying a gazzilion gallons of fuel, and you use combat flaps where needed.
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
The fun of using the Spits for turn fighting down low & slow in the weeds and trees, are now also just as crapy .......
Yeah, they are. I used to fly the Spit 8. Now it's a dog. Haven't found another plane I like yet. Probably spend more time in an Osti.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Yeah, they are. I used to fly the Spit 8. Now it's a dog. Haven't found another plane I like yet. Probably spend more time in an Osti.
Take up the Hurri Mk1 ;)
Seriously take about a week of flying it, getting to know what it can and can't do and after that week when you start landing some kills.....ALL the other planes (except the always crappy Spit Mk1) ride on rails.
But if you fly the hurri for a week you might want to fly it longer than that ;)
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Originally posted by Karnak
And this is wrong why? Sounds like a fix to me.
Yea but it was better before the patch and a pony could handle a spit in WWII. Did it say anything about them changeing the pony in the patch fourm?
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the P51 D is still one of the easiest planes in the game to get kills in, certainly top 5.
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I would never expect to be able to turn with a spitfire in this game in a P-51D.
However, what I have noticed is that the P-51D will now snap roll at speeds below 200 if you pull back on the nose in a sudden manuver. This is new to the revised flight model. It happenes with flaps in and with combat flaps. I myself never drop more than 25% flaps while in combat.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Take up the Hurri Mk1 ;)
Seriously take about a week of flying it, getting to know what it can and can't do and after that week when you start landing some kills.....ALL the other planes (except the always crappy Spit Mk1) ride on rails.
But if you fly the hurri for a week you might want to fly it longer than that ;)
What?? THE HMk1???.... Not such a crappy ride. Its a death trap, yes, thats what it is. (Ill leave interpretation on whose death to you) :t
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Quote
Made several changes to the flight model affecting static thrust, propeller slipstream effects,
ground effect, flaps and slats. This affects all planes to one degree or another. Due to this change, the
table that controls combat trim had to be redone for all planes.
:aok
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Originally posted by MajWoody
Quote
Made several changes to the flight model affecting static thrust, propeller slipstream effects,
ground effect, flaps and slats. This affects all planes to one degree or another. Due to this change, the
table that controls combat trim had to be redone for all planes.
:aok
Oh come on. Next you'll be wanting them to read instructions or actually pick up a book and read something rather than making statements with no basis in fact. You should know by now making up your own facts is standard BBS procedure. How dare you quote notes from the update?!?!?!?
For punishment, you must fly every mission in a SBD for the rest of the tour!
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Originally posted by MajWoody
Quote
Made several changes to the flight model affecting static thrust, propeller slipstream effects,
ground effect, flaps and slats. This affects all planes to one degree or another. Due to this change, the
table that controls combat trim had to be redone for all planes.
:aok
ah HA;)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
What?? THE HMk1???.... Not such a crappy ride. Its a death trap, yes, thats what it is. (Ill leave interpretation on whose death to you) :t
Had a few people cut me some slack because I was in a hurri mk1 ;)
I just cannot take the lack of rolling ability and the spacing of the 303's on the Spit Mk1s wings.
The hurri has em nice and grouped, but the spit puts them in 3 different spots.
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And somehow the Spit feels tons heavier then the Hurri. I cant really tell why, but its sluggish.