Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FiLtH on April 07, 2006, 12:35:25 AM
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Is it...
A. A mass of twisting turning planes, trying to watch your six and others, shooting, breaking off to avoid being shot, on the deck slugfest, and trying to limp out of it...maybe you do..maybe you don't.
B. A mass of targets on the deck that one can blow through picking off people as you blow past, trying to stay above the mass, and repeating attacks.
The reason I ask is alot of people want the furball, but not as many seem to take part in what I consider a furball, which is the definition A.
I guess what Im asking is, do you want to get in the mix, or do you want targets to shoot at?
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To me, a furball is A, at any altitude, and one tactic for engaging is B (the other being the TnB method you mention in A). So, A and B aren't mutually exclusive, and, being a virtual coward who likes to land (pretending that virtual furballs are real ones), I prefer tactic B. My wingy prefers your method A, and so I tend to die a lot. :(
I am also loaded, but thinking clearly nevertheless. :aok
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A. If you are above the mob, picking on the fringes or the already slow turning guys fighting each other, you aren't furballing.
I figure since no one really dies and planes are free, why not see how long you can last in the mix. It's amazing how some of the best can live forever low and slow in a fight like that. I'm not even close yet :)
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I agree Guppy, for 15 bucks I can get unlimited planes, and only half the time do I rtb. Saves time. My thrill is getting in a furball and seeing how long I can last before I either run out of ammo or die, avoiding guys trying to kill me, and trying to setup up attacks in between. Events like FSO and scenarios I do try to survive, but MA play for me is all about the action.
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A funny guy from England or what ever...:D
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A is furballing.
B is not. B is what the timid and score-conscious define as A. It is still B.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
A funny guy from England or what ever...:D
:aok :D
except i am 18/f/cali
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(http://www.slowcat.de/slowcats1/films/furball.jpg)
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I can NEVER stay out of the mix.
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I define "furball" not so much as a situation as an attitude. I think alot of other people do as well, but we don't make it clear, and thus get this bad rep for being "mindless."
In my opinion, to be a furballer, you're looking for a fight. It doesn't matter if there's a swarm of planes flying everywhere (that just makes it more intense), it could just be one other guy and you. The bottom line is, you both fight, and you both try and kill each other without running away from each other. You pull out the tricks you've learned, they pull out there's, you each make (or don't make) mistakes, and then one of you wins.
This happens in large furball situations, just more quickly or you won't be getting the kill (and will probably get picked). To think and react quickly -how can that be "mindless"?
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Some days A, Some days B, Some days perfer to do field captures.
Some days CV attacks, some days GV.
And thats the wonderful thing about AH.
If everyone would show everyone else just a LITTLE common respect & courtesy.
It really wouldn't be that hard to get along.
You want my opinon, this whole thing about furballers, buffs, griefers all started with one person. Started when laz and the BK's started calling bombers fluffers.
Show a little respect, and you get some back. Treat me well and I'll return the favor. You steal my kills and you'll never get a 6 call. Insult me, mess up my day & I'll go out of my way for WEEKS to mess up yours.
Rescue me from certain death and your good on 6 calls for life.
Its simple give & take folks and its NOT that hard!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Some days A, Some days B, Some days perfer to do field captures.
Some days CV attacks, some days GV.
And thats the wonderful thing about AH.
If everyone would show everyone else just a LITTLE common respect & courtesy.
It really wouldn't be that hard to get along.
You want my opinon, this whole thing about furballers, buffs, griefers all started with one person. Started when laz and the BK's started calling bombers fluffers.
Show a little respect, and you get some back. Treat me well and I'll return the favor. You steal my kills and you'll never get a 6 call. Insult me, mess up my day & I'll go out of my way for WEEKS to mess up yours.
Rescue me from certain death and your good on 6 calls for life.
Its simple give & take folks and its NOT that hard!
Abso-%^*&-lutely! :aok
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Ghosth, im afraid your using two words that are barely understandable, much less comprehensible for many in an online enviroment:
Respect and Courtesy.
You dont know how many a times i have been called odd and stupid for being respectful of my opponent.
Still, its a nice vision, one i second FULLY. Hope dies last - i wont give up hoping for the good in people.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
You dont know how many a times i have been called odd and stupid for being respectful of my opponent.
They just don't have any experience with German. If they did, they'd see the name and put two and two together. Was it a tough call between Schatzi and Taubchen? :D :p
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Originally posted by Vudak
Was it a tough call between Schatzi and Taubchen? :D :p
:rofl :rofl :rofl
If I ever need a shades, mind if I use it? :lol
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ghost...are you saying that "fluffers/fluffs" does not accurately describe the personality and use for bombers and their one=30 man crews in the game?
I also started "toolshed battlers"... are you gonna tell me that is not descriptive either?
If you have had time to eat or drink something or you have remembered to blink... you probly weren't in a furball.
I call six more than most... it doesn't mean I respect you or want your respect.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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(Slightly adjusting heading to get back on topic)
Id rather this not turn into another buff/vs fighter thread.
Good posts so far.
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oh... and bieng a "trainer" that uses the opportunity to push an agenda is pretty low. worse than toolshed battling probly.
lazs
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Nice try Ghost,
You and those that agree with you can bury your heads in the sand like there is not a problem, but it won't make it go away. Blaming Lazs is just shooting the messenger. The recurrence of furballs is abysmal compared to the days when you didn't get perk points for resets. The fighter pilots were a lot better too.
Back to topic:
A is a furball. B are people that want to be in the furball but don't yet posses the skills to fly in the furball and must rely on the safety of their perch and speed. For those that like to just cherry pick, that is a different story. They just like the boredom had by chasing drones LOLH.
The funny thing is, until they get down and dirty in the weeds with the rest of us they are never going to gain the skills to survive and kill in the FB and maybe make it out.
I agree with Filth that most of the people in this game have no clue what it was like before the WIN the WAR code. Most don't know what a real furball is and they think like Ghost, that furballs are everywhere where there are more than two planes LOL.
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I thought the term furball was taken from cats (or dogs, I suppose) fighting. In such engagements, the action seems to be frantic, up close, claws and teeth and much howling and growling, fur flying, etc.
Personally, I don't see that term carrying over to a crow circling such a fight, swooping down, and snagging a loose morsel during such a fight.
Call it riding the perch, lurking, cherry picking, fruitbatting, bore n snore, whatever... it's still not a furball to me unless you're in the fight.
I don't think Filth asked anyone's opinion on anyone else, TYVM. Stop hijacking, you mooks.
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Hehe a crow..Carrion Cowboys?
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Hmm........
Where does the term Furball come from?
IIRC it was created during the Battle of Brittan/WWII?
It refered to large numbers of aircraft battling in a small area?
To me a Furball can be high alt or low alt or in between, BUT it requires more then... say 10 planes fighting it out.
A. is my choice for furball.
B. is vulching but avoiding a furball.
BTW I like flying with Ghosth, great wingie! Although I still think of someone saying ghost with a lisp when I see the name :) Ghosth! Hmm think I earned 6 calls for life while I was at it :)
And IMHO, although I can only recall flying with Schatzi once, Schatzi has it, that thing called CLASS. Turn fighting with a Spit1 with that plane and staying alive so long was impressive. Sorry I had to leave I was down to 3 minutes fuel and didn't make it anyways (that was NwBie's fault though :) ) Schatzi
But then I like to co-op with all those around me when I fly. And the two I mention above, along with many others I've flown with, co-op!
I call 6s and I try to work with others by clearing them and them clearing me. I talk during a fight, I report conditions to all around, and I listen to others calling out conditions near them. Telling someone that a con is diving on them while they are engaged with another con, from very high with allot of E can over the long run save MY behind by keeping them alive. If I'm in position I jump the con they were on to keep em bz while the friendly breaks to avoid and returns to the fight.
I've found after doing this with some flyers that there is a like response and we get a rythum going and become harder to defeat.
BTW flown with Laz as well and he is a great wingie also! Laz
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Hehe a crow..Carrion Cowboys?
:lol
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personally i would not call it a furball when i flew unless there were 20+ planes for each side involved.
5 on 5, 8 on 8 or whatever, thats just a dogfight.
furball means you can't count the planes because there are too many.
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Originally posted by thndregg
Abso-%^*&-lutely! :aok
huh?
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C.
To me a Furball is a large cluster of enemy and friendlies all engaged in a fight. It includes both A and B. its not a 2v2 or a 4v4, its when it becomes difficult to keep track of just how many there is.
A. In my opinion is, if only involving a few planes is a dog fight.
B. Is more like clubing seals.
Personaly I would be most likey to use tactic B when entering a large furball. As things progress, I will end up with tactic A. As oppertunity permits I will try to regain an advantage if possible. But then Im a Dweeb ;)
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ROFL. If you think that I am going to turnfight my Typhoon or A8 on the deck at or under 200 mph against a gang of Spitup 16s, Nikis, La7s and the like you are crazy. Anything but a timid, mindless, skilless, score potato, I adjust my fighting style to the plane that I am in. When I am in a boom and zoomer, I boom and zoom. That is NOT vulching (neither is field suppression with overwhelming numbers), which is a fine art you hardly see anymore.
If I am in a Spitup and encounter a furball, I often start out with (B) and eventually end up in the weeds turning and burning with the rest (A), as Grimm says happens to him. That is why A and B are not mutually exclusive... some planes, like Spits, are superb at this transition from one form of ACM to another.
Many players seem to think that one should fly every plane the same way in all situations, and if you don't fly that way then you are timid and lacking skill, or (note the derogatories) cherry picking or vulching (translation: they don't like it when you don't play the way they want ). They are wrong.
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If your bringing a Typh to a furball your cherry picking or looking for a real challenge on the deck. If you are BnZing a furball you are not furballing.
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exactly mars...
and filth.... "carrion cowboys" that is perfect. you will be blamed for ending the world of AH koombye ahhhh... tho a few years from now when the "trainers" blame you for the expression while trying to teach newbies how to become.....
carrion cowboys.... "ok class... we take our F4U 1c and get nice and high above the furball.... make sure that you pick out someone who is really concentrating on the 8 guys around him and swoop down and blast him but make sure there are no planes higher than you can zoom climb away from..."
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I think your categories are too narrow and simplistic. How many of you film your fights? I like to film mine, let me explain how my average sortie tends to play out in terms of stages:
1) I locate a nice fight on the map, up for the fight from a nearby field almost always with 100% fuel and DT's. I tailor my style to my diminishing fuel load as the flight progresses.
2) I then Gain altitude to be at or slightly above 75% of the reported/guesstimated enemy within optimal aircraft performance limits, which is generally 15k or less.
3) Usually I overfly the focal point of the fight scanning for targets at or above my altitude. Once those are dead, flee or are dragged down I continue to the opposite perimiter of the fight area.
4) Once on the extreme edge of the fight opposite the side my home field is on I vector toward friendly territory engaging targets of opportunity along the way, always highest to lowest and fastest to slowest if in an E Fighter or the most nimble first if in a turn fighter, engaging and destroying cons all the way down to deck if necessary.
5) Once my altitude/energy degrades to the point I am either on the deck or on the bottom of the pile I attempt to gain seperation and egress toward my field and friendlies in order to regain operational altitude.
6) Repeat stages 2-5
Now, perhaps at the beginning of the sortie or after stage 6 I am BnZ'ing, especially if there are no enemy cons at or above my altitude and my fuel load is very heavy. By stage 4 I am likely E fighting cons at any altitude, at/above/below. Between stages 4 and 5 I am likely TnBing close to or on the deck, dodging BnZers and E fighters before I attempt to gain seperation and disengage to regain my energy state composure...
So, was I furballing, dogfighting, E fighting, BnZing, seal clubbing, fighting at an advantage or fighting at a disadvantage? The answer is almost certainly all of the above...
I would even go so far as to say, anyone who can categorize their fighting style as stricly type a or b is either lying, dellusional or so hopelessly one dimensional in their approach to air combat they aren't enjoying nearly the fun or the effectiveness they could be if they adopted a more versatile and adaptive style..
Zazen
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A furball is heaven to me.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
A furball is heaven to me.
i love you too, snookums xxx
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I like the Furball, not the one from England, not the 18/f/cali with a super hot webcame which you can see here (http://www.furballunderground.com) either. I, however, must disagree with you mars, I in no way possess skills for the furball, I just like to get in and see how many can eat 20MM hispanos before I go down.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Is it...
A. A mass of twisting turning planes, trying to watch your six and others, shooting, breaking off to avoid being shot, on the deck slugfest, and trying to limp out of it...maybe you do..maybe you don't.
B. A mass of targets on the deck that one can blow through picking off people as you blow past, trying to stay above the mass, and repeating attacks.
"A" is the answere but just about most start their fight in a "B". By that I mean a few passes till they lock onto the guy that didn't die (grrr) then it's on the deck, twisty turny stuff, slow, ganged and very hecktic. Getting away with it (Landing) is satifying. To me Landing is proof of the pudding. Sure ya get guys saying it's "over rated" but it's a sentence to often used as an excuse IMHO.
However, it's not everyones cuppa Tea. I like the Historical side of things and going to FT or what ever is just good for a laugh .....occasionally.
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i lke shooting through at 300mph blasting FM2s off my squaddies six for the first 50% fuel, and then fighting said FM2 along with 4 spits and an la7, all yapping at my heels too, for the second 50% of fuel.
now if you (filth) flew a plane that could actually go above 300mph, you might not always be catagory A
:p
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Some days A, Some days B, Some days perfer to do field captures.
Some days CV attacks, some days GV.
And thats the wonderful thing about AH.
If everyone would show everyone else just a LITTLE common respect & courtesy.
It really wouldn't be that hard to get along.
You want my opinon, this whole thing about furballers, buffs, griefers all started with one person. Started when laz and the BK's started calling bombers fluffers.
Show a little respect, and you get some back. Treat me well and I'll return the favor. You steal my kills and you'll never get a 6 call. Insult me, mess up my day & I'll go out of my way for WEEKS to mess up yours.
Rescue me from certain death and your good on 6 calls for life.
Its simple give & take folks and its NOT that hard!
This guy has a point
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Some days A, Some days B, Some days perfer to do field captures.
Some days CV attacks, some days GV.
And thats the wonderful thing about AH.
If everyone would show everyone else just a LITTLE common respect & courtesy.
It really wouldn't be that hard to get along.
You want my opinon, this whole thing about furballers, buffs, griefers all started with one person. Started when laz and the BK's started calling bombers fluffers.
Show a little respect, and you get some back. Treat me well and I'll return the favor. You steal my kills and you'll never get a 6 call. Insult me, mess up my day & I'll go out of my way for WEEKS to mess up yours.
Rescue me from certain death and your good on 6 calls for life.
Its simple give & take folks and its NOT that hard!
Too bad you didn't answer the question, but took the opportunity to personally sideswipe Lazs.
Lazs didn't personally start anything ... there already was a large contigent that was voicing their opinion on that topic ... Lazs just put a name on it.
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No laz I'm not saying they are not descriptive, or even accurate in some cases. What I'm saying is you dug this hole, and that hole. Now your complaining about the field being full of holes.
You guys want one thing, and thats fine, I see your point. I get it, really I do.
I do not and never have had a problem with the BK's.
The fact remains that in many respects you guys started this "Rift" for lack of a better word.
I can't speak for anyone else. But I know for months every time I saw fluffer it kicked my anger/frustration level up a notch. You brought that term into life, you directed it, aimed it. And now your reaping what you've sown.
NO one likes to be labeled!
No one likes to be disrespected.
My point which I'll stand behind trainer or no trainer.
Is that you guys dug this hole, now your complaining about the hole.
And no Mars, I'm not shooting the messenger.
I'm actually not shooting anyone.
I'm telling the guy who sent the original message that started the war.
That he might want to rethink what messages he sends.
Which he'll probably ignore, but then thats my problem not yours or his.
The long & short of it is I've always respected the BK's. I've met laz, we don't agree on much but we get along fine. He's basicly lazy, and ussually admits it.
He wants his fight his way without having to work for it.
And thats fine as long as he respects MY want to have MY fight MY way.
And right there is where I see the crux of the problem. Lack of respect
for anyone who doesn't see things your way.
Which quit frankly, I don't see from most of the BK's.
And no I don't think this is going to end the war either.
And no there is no hatchet on this side to bury.
I'm just playing the game the BK way for a day.
Call it the way I see it, let the chips fall wherever they dang well fall.
And SCREW the consequences.
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Your right some guys think a furball is staying at 15k diveing down in thir PonyD and cherry picking all the guys turning and burerning. I love a good furball I get killed fast but the turn fight is worth it :aok
The sky is blue water is wet and old stainclauss is out thir jimmy and he`s waitin for us
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Guilty as charged slapshot sir.
Seems to me you own me one from a not so long ago thread.
Call it even?
My apoligies to Filth for the thread hijack. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Guilty as charged slapshot sir.
Seems to me you own me one from a not so long ago thread.
Call it even?
My apoligies to Filth for the thread hijack. Sorry.
even
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ghost... yes.. I am lazy..well... Let's just say that if I want work I can get overtime for it.... games are not where I seek my work.
You are also right that I don't care if griefers are hurt by putting an accurate name to what they do.
The problem is... that when you or they take advantage of gameplay that gives you a huge advantage or destroys the fun of dozens of guys at a time.... it is griefing and of course... it causes people to get disgusted..
sure... it is your money and it is an option but.. you know what you are doing and we know what you are doing...
When you shoot someone down in a furball you are causeing them "grief" too but.... they get to come right back and have about the same chance you had of killing them of ..... killing you and.. even if you don't it is at least fun while it is happening.
when a cherry picker carrion cowboy or toolsheding fluffer rruins the fight you are pretty helpless... you can either hope he doesn't succeed or..
Try to stop him.
The last option is laughable... he may destroy your gameplay by his toolshedding and he may not but..
He will absoluetly destroy all hope of having a a good time online if you have to sink to the level of playing with him.
I mean...seriously... why do you think we don't hunt the boring carrion cowboys and toolsheders?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Ya Bat I wish I enjoyed the fast planes as much as I do the slow ones. Although I can appreciate the way to fly the fast ones, and have actually tried a bit, I have an issue with them. That issue is I lack the discipline to stay fast. My SA is pretty good. I see the bad guys, and assess the situation. I just at some point say fack it and go in.
The main reason I prefer the slower planes is this. I dont mind seeing faster planes extend from me. I dont mind them run,grab,and try to rope or pick at me. I like that challenge.The only reason I continue to do that is the number of people that get tired of bnz'in and missing, commit 1 pass too early and get popped.
But back to the main reason. I dont like flying in a plane that can easily get outturned by another type. Thats how I like to fly, and when it gets down to that point, I want a chance to have a good turn fight. My main targets are spits, hurris and zeros. I like to wander into a furball and target them first. Maybe when I get older, and my reflexes are gone I will start flying the fast planes, and dream of the glory days when the wingtips scrapped the water, and the trees were king. :)
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Ya Bat I wish I enjoyed the fast planes as much as I do the slow ones. Although I can appreciate the way to fly the fast ones, and have actually tried a bit, I have an issue with them. That issue is I lack the discipline to stay fast. My SA is pretty good. I see the bad guys, and assess the situation. I just at some point say fack it and go in.
btw i wouldnt consider the Chog a fast plane, and you just happened to be the first kill of the sortie when i came in at 8k, you saw me a few minutes later in the same spot but at 2k, and you shot me :)
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I think the plane you fly will dictate how you treat a furball.
I like FW- 190 A8. Is hard to find a furball with planes that I can dogfight with.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
But back to the main reason. I dont like flying in a plane that can easily get outturned by another type. Thats how I like to fly, and when it gets down to that point, I want a chance to have a good turn fight. My main targets are spits, hurris and zeros. I like to wander into a furball and target them first. Maybe when I get older, and my reflexes are gone I will start flying the fast planes, and dream of the glory days when the wingtips scrapped the water, and the trees were king. :)
In alot of ways flying a fast and therefore less nimble plane is more difficult. You eluded to the reason here. In a nimble plane it is rather trivial to avoid passes by faster and less agile planes. In a slow, manueverable plane you always have the TnB card, you can always just yank n' bank with any opponent and have a good chance of victory. In a fast plane you do not have that luxury. If you find yourself facing just about any plane with an E advantage on you you are committed, you have no trump card, if they have the E to prevent you from seperating you either have to fly your arse off vs. a more manueverable plane, which is quite difficult, if the guy is worth a chit, or you're going to die....period...
So obviously someone in a fast plane is going to try to keep slower and more agile planes at arms length. The only way to do this is to E fight. A slow plane really has no such concerns, they can E fight or dump all of their E and shift to angles fighting knowing they have an advantage there too.
The trouble I see people running into in slow planes is if they have really bad SA, they get BnZ'd alot. The people with good SA are almost impossible to purely BnZ as a nimble plane can flick away from a high speed pass from a fast plane effortlessly. It is the SA-less guys flying slow planes that are always whining about cherry-pickers, they may be great sticks, but if your SA sucks and you're in a slow ride you're going to get picked ALOT, it's just a fact. Just as it's a fact, as filth says, if you're in a fast plane but lack the discipline to E fight, but instead get into low-speed angles fights with far more manueverable planes you're going to get killed ALOT.
I'm not saying people in fast planes shouldn't turn fight. I'm simply saying they have to pick their spots far more carefully and they generally have to be very good at turn fighting to enjoy consistant success against planes that have an intrinsic manueverability advantage.
Zazen
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Id say if I were trying to live, I'd take fast over turn anyday of the week. But day to day flying I'll take a turner. Stuff like FSO and scenarios its nice to have speed and climb.
As far as it being harder to fly in a fast plane, I cant say I agree. If you are high and fast, and can look around, unless you pull on that stick, you dictate your destiny. You can even dive away . But if by chance, you get caught, and find yourself trapped. It all falls back on the down and dirty turn fight as a last resort to survive. From what Ive seen, the guys who fly the turners well, seem to get the most out of even the worst turning planes when times are tough.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
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As far as it being harder to fly in a fast plane, I cant say I agree. If you are high and fast, and can look around, unless you pull on that stick, you dictate your destiny. You can even dive away . But if by chance, you get caught, and find yourself trapped. It all falls back on the down and dirty turn fight as a last resort to survive.
Not many people who fly fast planes who are worth a watermelon stay high and fast all the time. Read my breakdown of a typical flight. A good portion of the flight is spent at or very near the deck and definately 'underneath' alot of the enemy. Staying high and fast all the time is a recipe for 1 kill an hour. The fact is in AH, unlike in real life, the 'food' is under 10k, usually under 5k, so if you want kills that's where you must end up. So, when a fast plane goes down to feed he is virtually guarenteeing a turnfight at a severe manueverability disadvantage at some point in the sortie...A turnfighter fighting under 10k, unless ganged, is guarenteed to be at the very least even money in a turnfight, skill being equal..
The point is, everyone ends up turnfighting at some point in a typical sortie. To enjoy similiar success and survival rate a Jug driver has to be quite alot better at it than a Spit driver, for example. If the Jug driver is not very good, way above average, at manuevering his plane he will rarely survive anything vaguely resembling a turnfight as he will almost always be at a severe innate manueverability disadvantage. A Spit driver doesn't have to be nearly as good to survive a typical turnfight as he will almost never be at an innate manueverability disadvantage...
To summarize, an E disadvantage is fairly easy to overcome, a manueverability disadvantage is hardcoded and impossible to overcome. The only way to be successful with an innate manueverability disadvantage is to fly ALOT better than the more manueverable plane's pilot and be absolutely perfect at exploiting any and all mistakes he makes. This requires alot of skill...In a plane that has an innate manueverability advantage you can actually fly alot worse than the disadvantaged plane and win easily, in order to lose you'd really have to screw-up and/or be very badly out-flown...Time is on the side of the more manueverable plane, E naturally degrades over time, the fight gets tighter and tighter, sealing the fate of the less manueverable plane.
Zazen
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You see it that way, I see it this way.
Take the 2 planes in here at opposite ends of the spectrum. The 262 and the Spit1. If the 262 stays fast, he has no fear, short of another 262. No matter what the spit1 does, he has everyone to fear. You seem to think the Spit has all the time in the world tooling around just waiting for someone to turn fight him. In reality its guys in the faster planes, he has to be constantly on guard for, as well as the other turners he will face.
Im sorry I just dont respect the fast hit and run flying as much as I do a guy that can work a fight to gain a 6 shot, and more so a guy that can do this against multiple enemies.
To me its like swordsmen and archers. The swordsmen hack away at eachother and the archers shoot into the mass of fighters. After the battle the archer says to the swordsman, "Whew...that was a tuff fight!"
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Originally posted by FiLtH
You see it that way, I see it this way.
Take the 2 planes in here at opposite ends of the spectrum. The 262 and the Spit1. If the 262 stays fast, he has no fear, short of another 262. No matter what the spit1 does, he has everyone to fear. You seem to think the Spit has all the time in the world tooling around just waiting for someone to turn fight him. In reality its guys in the faster planes, he has to be constantly on guard for, as well as the other turners he will face.
Im sorry I just dont respect the fast hit and run flying as much as I do a guy that can work a fight to gain a 6 shot, and more so a guy that can do this against multiple enemies.
To me its like swordsmen and archers. The swordsmen hack away at eachother and the archers shoot into the mass of fighters. After the battle the archer says to the swordsman, "Whew...that was a tuff fight!"
That's a poor example, but your whole argument is predicated upon the erroneous assumption that fast planes never, by choice or circumstance, turn-fight. That's just untrue, except when perk planes like the 262 are involved such as in your example, but that is a very unique and special situation. Show me a guy in a fast plane that doesn't turn-fight at least once or twice a sortie and I'll show you a guy who's either vulching, buff hunting or getting 1 kill an hour or less and therefore of no consequence anyways...
With the predominance of planes like the Spitfire/La7 and the relatively very low altitude of engagements in the MA, finding yourself at an E disadvantage and getting into at least one turnfight of some kind during a sortie is a foregone conclusion for any type of plane. When that inevtitably happens, the faster, less nimble plane is at a severe and virtually insurmountable disadvantage, his only possible recourse for success in this scenario is to dramatically out-fly his much more manueverable opponent...The reverse, however, is not true, a very manueverable plane need only erode the E state of the opponent to the point where he can use his distinct manueverability advantage to consumate the victory. Unless the pilot of the angles fighter is badly out-flown or makes a glaring mistake his victory in this scenario is assured...Fights between planes equal in manueverability are decided by who makes the least mistakes and raw pilot/gunnery skill...
Zazen
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"The reverse, however, is not true, a very manueverable plane need only erode the E state of the opponent to the point where he can use his distinct manueverability advantage to consumate the victory"
The plane with the E advantage should never be in the position to let a turn fighter dictate his E state. If so he, like me, just wanted to get in fight and see how he could do against the turning plane. If you really want to stay alive in a fast plane, odds are the survivibilty percentage favors it, rather than a slow plane. I think thats fairly obvious.
But back to the topic of the thread, to be part of a furball, I believe the consensus believes its at equal speeds in a turning mass of planes, most likely on the deck with no way to dive out to escape, having to brawl your way out of the fight. Traveling through one, although low, with speed, doesnt constitute as being part of that furball, merely going through one.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
....Show me a guy in a fast plane that doesn't turn-fight at least once or twice a sortie and I'll show you a guy who's either vulching, buff hunting or getting 1 kill an hour or less and therefore of no consequence anyways...
(http://www.gonzoville.com/share/files/1/Files/stemcell.jpg)
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I have to agree with Filth good posts, spot on.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
"The reverse, however, is not true, a very manueverable plane need only erode the E state of the opponent to the point where he can use his distinct manueverability advantage to consumate the victory"
The plane with the E advantage should never be in the position to let a turn fighter dictate his E state. If so he, like me, just wanted to get in fight and see how he could do against the turning plane. If you really want to stay alive in a fast plane, odds are the survivibilty percentage favors it, rather than a slow plane. I think thats fairly obvious.
But back to the topic of the thread, to be part of a furball, I believe the consensus believes its at equal speeds in a turning mass of planes, most likely on the deck with no way to dive out to escape, having to brawl your way out of the fight. Traveling through one, although low, with speed, doesnt constitute as being part of that furball, merely going through one.
Let me explain this another way. All it takes is one Spit higher than a speed plane and the speed plane has no E advantage and if at or near the deck cannot dive to escape, this happens all the time in the MA. Anyone diving can be the fastest plane with the most E, a diving Zeke is faster than a level La7. A smart turn-fighter can easily seduce an E advantage away from an over-zealous opponent, just ask people like Greebo who are masters at it.
You seem to be clinging to this notion of perfect polar opposites where all of the slow planes are 2 feet off the ground, flaps out at 100 mph and all the speed planes are 20k or diving thru the low guys at 500 mph with their hair on fire. While this may be how some people fly, it's not how the very sucessful, therefore dangerous ones fly. If you want to kill efficiently and effectively in the MA you have to chop throttle and go a few turns with your prey in most cases, especially if he has any SA at all or is any good. While you are doing this chances are a friend of his with equal or better E is going to latch onto your six. It is in this way every plane in a furball ends up involved in some turnfighting. When this happens, the most manueverable plane will always win unless the guy in the much less manueverable plane totally and completely outflies/out-shoots the more manueverable one.
Zazen
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Originally posted by FiLtH
(Snip ...)
Im sorry I just dont respect the fast hit and run flying as much as I do a guy that can work a fight to gain a 6 shot, and more so a guy that can do this against multiple enemies.
To me its like swordsmen and archers. The swordsmen hack away at eachother and the archers shoot into the mass of fighters. After the battle the archer says to the swordsman, "Whew...that was a tuff fight!"
The Main is made by furballers, cherrypickers and everything in between. Furballers are targets for me, as I am a target for them when I come down and eventually loose my E advantage.
Uhm, no respect what? Does everybody have to play the way furballers want? No matter which aircraft they are in? No thanks, I for one prefer to fight from 20K down on the deck, trying to sharpen my SA. I dont like to be shoot down by one of the 10 foes around me, probably unseen, as 99% of furballers do. I dont like no gravity aircraft (like Spits, Lalas, Franks, Nikis and Hurries) and their full flaps maneuvers often on and beyond the edge of the flight envelope. For me AH is not just a shooting game like BF1942. Its much more. However, I respect furballers: hell, I am often one of them once I've lost all my E and SA ;)
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Originally posted by gatt
, I respect furballers: hell, I am often one of them once I've lost all my E and SA ;)
Precisely Gatt. Everyone ends up turnfighting. I am one of the most disciplined and patient E fighters in the game (not the best, just disciplined), yet I still end up turnfighting on the deck every sortie either by intention or circumstance...Doing so successfully in a plane that turns substantially worse than 9 out of 10 planes in the air is far, far, far more difficult than doing so in a plane that intrinsically out-turns 9 out of 10 planes in the air...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
1) I locate a nice fight on the map, up for the fight from a nearby field almost always with 100% fuel and DT's. I tailor my style to my diminishing fuel load as the flight progresses.
Drop Tanks? and 100% fuel - screams TIMID ALT MONKEY to me (especialy in a furballers paradise)
2) I then Gain altitude to be at or slightly above 75% of the reported/guesstimated enemy within optimal aircraft performance limits, which is generally 15k or less.
Verification of ALT-MONKEY
3) Usually I overfly the focal point of the fight scanning for targets at or above my altitude. Once those are dead, flee or are dragged down I continue to the opposite perimiter of the fight area.
[/B]
Sound like the start of a cherry pick....
4) Once on the extreme edge of the fight opposite the side my home field is on I vector toward friendly territory engaging targets of opportunity along the way, always highest to lowest and fastest to slowest if in an E Fighter or the most nimble first if in a turn fighter, engaging and destroying cons all the way down to deck if necessary.
[/B]
sounds like confirmed cherry picking or afk all-starring......
5) Once my altitude/energy degrades to the point I am either on the deck or on the bottom of the pile I attempt to gain seperation and egress toward my field and friendlies in order to regain operational altitude.
[/B]
IE Run for my ack buddies
6) Repeat stages 2-5
[/B]
Rinse n repeat......
Well you proved your stance to me...a timid "furballer" who spends all his time in ostwinds or feild guns.
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Zaz...I've flown with you. We are squadmates.
Sortie for sortie, the faster planes will have a better survival rate.
Better climb gets them to safer alt sooner and more often. Better speed, usually better dive as well. Most times better armed. Your definition sounds more like a dogfight to me.
I too dont always furball. What Im trying to do is define furball. You dont have to defend how you fly, whatever works. Ive seen alot of posts in here lately assaulting the bomber types and how they ruin furballs, when in fact the reason they hate to see furballs ruined is they lose targets..not because they cant take part in a furball.
If someone gains kills off the unaware, or the busy so be it. But please dont call it being in the furball. Save that for the poor saps who crawl into and out of them. Again..this thread is defining furball, not attacking how one plays, or even what plane someone should use.
I'll let you have the last word. Feels like its getting a little heated and I dont want to go down that road.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
... What Im trying to do is define furball. ...
My observation is that a typical furball is more like a meteorological storm cell than a cluster. It's more dynamic than static, though it does retain a visual form, like a storm. Usually starts around 8-12K from the initial merge and it quickly drops down below 5K. Then more planes feed into this from above (B&Z planes) and below (T&B planes) or co-alt (either kind of plane). The median altitude can change depending on where people start dying, and what altitudes people come in at to feed the system, but everything pretty much funnels downward.
This means you have planes with a range of energy potentials all in the same space, depending on how recent they joined. It also means you have players with a range of SA because the more recent arrivals have a better sense of the big picture. SA, altitude, and energy all degrade the longer you stay inside the system. Now maybe some of those planes aren't classified as "furballers" but they are contributing to the system in one way or another.
As for looking down on killing the unaware, don't underestimate the satisfaction of dropping in fast and alone behind a flight of 3 or 4 La-7's or Spit16's on their way to your base, picking out the one who isn't paying close enough attention, and nailing him in one pass right in front of his wingmen. And then knowing that he's now on the radio about "Gee, thanks for the check-6 you guys."
A classic bounce is not the same as cherry-picking and it's awesome when you can pull it off given that there's neon.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
My observation is that a typical furball is more like a meteorological storm cell than a cluster. It's more dynamic than static, though it does retain a visual form, like a storm. Usually starts around 8-12K from the initial merge and it quickly drops down below 5K. Then more planes feed into this from above (B&Z planes) and below (T&B planes) or co-alt (either kind of plane). The median altitude can change depending on where people start dying, and what altitudes people come in at to feed the system, but everything pretty much funnels downward.
This means you have planes with a range of energy potentials all in the same space, depending on how recent they joined. It also means you have players with a range of SA because the more recent arrivals have a better sense of the big picture. SA, altitude, and energy all degrade the longer you stay inside the system. Now maybe some of those planes aren't classified as "furballers" but they are contributing to the system in one way or another.
As for looking down on killing the unaware, don't underestimate the satisfaction of dropping in fast and alone behind a flight of 3 or 4 La-7's or Spit16's on their way to your base, picking out the one who isn't paying close enough attention, and nailing him in one pass right in front of his wingmen. And then knowing that he's now on the radio about "Gee, thanks for the check-6 you guys."
A classic bounce is not the same as cherry-picking and it's awesome when you can pull it off given that there's neon.
The most technically correct definition of a furball that I have ever seen.
I agree ... a "bounce" is not a "cherrypick" ... a cherrypick is killing someone who is already engaged ... and your fellow friendly could be winning or losing in the engagement.
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A furball is all things to all types of players. It contains dogfighting, energy fighting, jumping the unaware, cherrypicking, fighting with an advantage, fighting with a disadvantage, going fast, going slowly, teamwork, and individual accomplishment. It can be all of these things to one person in the span of just a couple of minutes.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
My observation is that a typical furball is more like a meteorological storm cell than a cluster.
Dok, Great discripition. I think we have the winner here!
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They do seem to appear like a storm...the night before last a small one, more like a dust devil appeared around me. It only lasted for a few minutes, but there were about 10-12 similar planes, all in the same E state, shooting and evading, callin 6. It truly does have a physical feel like a storm when it happens...because when it stops you say..wow that was fun.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
A furball is all things to all types of players. It contains dogfighting, energy fighting, jumping the unaware, cherrypicking, fighting with an advantage, fighting with a disadvantage, going fast, going slowly, teamwork, and individual accomplishment. It can be all of these things to one person in the span of just a couple of minutes.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Nice explanation...
Zazen
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
My observation is that a typical furball is more like a meteorological storm cell than a cluster. It's more dynamic than static, though it does retain a visual form, like a storm. Usually starts around 8-12K from the initial merge and it quickly drops down below 5K. Then more planes feed into this from above (B&Z planes) and below (T&B planes) or co-alt (either kind of plane). The median altitude can change depending on where people start dying, and what altitudes people come in at to feed the system, but everything pretty much funnels downward.
This means you have planes with a range of energy potentials all in the same space, depending on how recent they joined. It also means you have players with a range of SA because the more recent arrivals have a better sense of the big picture. SA, altitude, and energy all degrade the longer you stay inside the system. Now maybe some of those planes aren't classified as "furballers" but they are contributing to the system in one way or another.
As for looking down on killing the unaware, don't underestimate the satisfaction of dropping in fast and alone behind a flight of 3 or 4 La-7's or Spit16's on their way to your base, picking out the one who isn't paying close enough attention, and nailing him in one pass right in front of his wingmen. And then knowing that he's now on the radio about "Gee, thanks for the check-6 you guys."
A classic bounce is not the same as cherry-picking and it's awesome when you can pull it off given that there's neon.
I like that analogy alot, very insightful...
Zazen
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Zaz...I've flown with you. We are squadmates.
Sortie for sortie, the faster planes will have a better survival rate.
Better climb gets them to safer alt sooner and more often.
Fast plane does not mean better climbrate. Take the Typhoon or P47 for example, they climbs like crap on a stick...Lot's of the slower planes climb like scalded monkies comparatively...
Zazen
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I agree ... a "bounce" is not a "cherrypick" ... a cherrypick is killing someone who is already engaged ... and your fellow friendly could be winning or losing in the engagement.
That's so very true, successfully bouncing a far more manueverable plane that is aware of you and re-acting accordingly can be difficult to impossible. There are a few people, very good sticks with very great SA, I have never been able to sucessfully bounce. If I want to kill them they will force me to equalize E states and turn with them to do so...also very difficult obviously...
Zazen
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Originally posted by FiLtH
If someone gains kills off the unaware, or the busy so be it. But please dont call it being in the furball. Save that for the poor saps who crawl into and out of them. Again..this thread is defining furball, not attacking how one plays, or even what plane someone should use.
I realise cherry-picking is not a pure kill in the accomplishment sense . But do you realise fighter tactics in general are specifically predicated upon the fundamental principle of mutual support in combat? Clearing bandits off of a friendly is the entire concept behind the wingman element. Skill being equal, half the cherry picks are actually people saving their teammate from certain death. A good fighter pilot can even specifically target only those enemy which do have an advantage, they can tell who is on whom, and leave the bandits that are about to lose the fight alone only attacking those about to kill their teammates. If people engaged with one another were not always potential targets for cherry-picking SA would be meaningless. Part of the beautiful balance of air combat is the fact that there is always a trade-off between total concentration on one opponent for a kill and dwindling awareness of the situation around you, including potential cherry-picks...If single combat were guarenteed MA fights would be nothing more than a giant duelling arena, where SA and exapansive attention focus is meaningless...
Zazen
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Zazen and Dok in agreement
Can you feel the love in the air?
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I like very much Dok's description. I read for the first time something from Dok while trying to connect from Italy to AW during 1996. Go figure. I couldnt never get a good connx, tho. Then came WB.
Had a great time reading your sentences in the AW manual as well. As I had great time reading DocDoom tactics about the FW while flying WB1 .... ah the old times ... thanks God, then came AH :)
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Originally posted by Shaky
Zazen and Dok in agreement
Can you feel the love in the air?
I already got an invitation. "RTSigma and guest". Wanna go?
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Originally posted by RTSigma
I already got an invitation. "RTSigma and guest". Wanna go?
You wear the skirt...I'm feeling "butch" :D
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:lol
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This would redefine "shotgun wedding."
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the thing my cat leaves at the bottom of the stairs for me to step in
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A style of gameplay that one particular special interest group enjoys and whines about when its existence is threatened. :D
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Oddly enough, I don't feel the need to justify or explain my flying
style to anyone else here. If that means I don't get respect..oh well.:aok
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i find myelf more and more climbing for alt lately..it seems the player base has grown dramatically and there are just to many gaggles of cannon planes entering a fight to keep track of them..so ill try and drag a few away so at least its 2 or 3 on one instead of 10 or 12....also alot of the other players are really only interested in getting a kill not actually working together (stoopid bk's :) ) i think the classic5k and below furball with fairly equal numbers are going the wayside...ill see a huge darbar and 5 minutes later its over with one side vulching the other..:rolleyes:
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Cannons a blazing as I zoom through the air
Shooting down dweebs everywhere
Flying up high what do I see?
Looks like a Spitfire chasing after me
Fast he approaches, his eyes big and wide
Knowing a kill he will not be denied
Guns start firing at 2k or 3
Never checking six, his eyes fixed on me
I take a sharp turn and a long dive
He follows fast because speed=life
Plink plink plink he hears a sound
Guess what he sees when he turns around?
Yes, another 190 bearing down. "damn" he says with a long sigh
That alt monkey must have been really high
It doesn't matter the 190 can't shoot him down
His wings fall off and he spirals to the ground
The moral of the story is a fact that I want you to know
Sometimes the smartest target is not always low
If you're in a spitfire flying balls to the wall
You're doing something wrong, stay in your furball
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My observation is that a typical furball is more like a meteorological storm cell than a cluster. It's more dynamic than static, though it does retain a visual form, like a storm. Usually starts around 8-12K from the initial merge and it quickly drops down below 5K.
I hate to break up the love fest LOL :D. And I will agree that a furball can start like this. But personally if your over 5k you are not in the furball. You are on top of the furball.
Also furball people take off climb to 3k max, if at all, and then either fight all the dweebs that are diving in to bounce or cherry pick them or drive strait into the cons on the deck.
BTW - Lev report to Laz for retraining. :aok :D