Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Silat on April 07, 2006, 02:11:44 PM
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The former p38 took some skill to master and now it is beyond hope. As of the last patch it has been made into a non competitive plane.
Its low speed characteristics are all but gone and it now does not respond well to control input at hi speed when flying at low levels.
Is this a mistake, a bug, or just a way to deneuter a plane that was never in the super plane catagory?
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Originally posted by Silat
The former p38 took some skill to master and now it is beyond hope. As of the last patch it has been made into a non competitive plane.
Its low speed characteristics are all but gone and it now does not respond well to control input at hi speed when flying at low levels.
Is this a mistake, a bug, or just a way to deneuter a plane that was never in the super plane catagory?
Pyro has acknowledged that the last patch introduced a bug. IE: Excessive drag when using full flaps.
My regards,
Widewing
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I think is was a take from the Allied and give to the Luftwaffe....38 isn't the only Allied plane that got burned.
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Pyro has acknowledged that the last patch introduced a bug. IE: Excessive drag when using full flaps.
On all planes or just the P-38?
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Maybe Allieds will need to learn how to really fly now...
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Originally posted by Silat
The former p38 took some skill to master and now it is beyond hope. As of the last patch it has been made into a non competitive plane.
Its low speed characteristics are all but gone and it now does not respond well to control input at hi speed when flying at low levels.
Is this a mistake, a bug, or just a way to deneuter a plane that was never in the super plane catagory?
Honestly, it's not all that bad as some make it out to be. If you were one of the P-38 flyers that rode full flaps in a turn fight then I would imagine the bug effects you more than those that would only engage full flaps when necessary and retract them afterwards.
I'm going to post a couple of films I made the last few days that show as long as you don't ride full flaps and only use them when necessary and immediately retract them afterwards the bug isn't much if a hinderence.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Bruno
On all planes or just the P-38?
Just the P-38, Bruno.
"There is a bug in the last flap position that is making the drag go crazy high. That part is obvious when you take it from the 4th to the 5th notch and it acts like it just popped a drag chute.
Even after the bug in the last flaps position is fixed, it's still going to be undesirable to go to full flaps in a dogfight for all but a few unusual conditions." - Pyro
My regards,
Widewing
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yes it is ruined
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I think it is mostly likely far more accurate, or would be if not for the final flap position's drag bug.
Just because it doesn't allow you to play flapfest 2006 and have your seven ton fighter out turn three ton fighters with ease does not mean it is ruined.
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actually, it still out turns them... just got use your flaps even more than in Flapfest 2006. ie...cant just have them full all the time, constantly adjusting them to what you need...so i guess its flapfest-o-rama 2006?
if nikis and spit16s/9 are the "three ton fighters" you speak of, yes, 38G will still out turn them.
now im sure the pilots played a big part in it, but it was done nonetheless.
~S~
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Originally posted by Karnak
I think it is mostly likely far more accurate, or would be if not for the final flap position's drag bug.
Just because it doesn't allow you to play flapfest 2006 and have your seven ton fighter out turn three ton fighters with ease does not mean it is ruined.
:lol :aok :D
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The P38s all still fly well - for a two engined bomber :D.
I was never able to fly them weel, and after the last patch... well, i guess ill stop trying. I cant even "outturn" a well flown Pony or Corsair, let alone Spitties... but then, that probably just me :).
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Fighting a F4U in a 38 in my oppinion is a bad idea anyway, the F4U will eat the 38 for diner any day.
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Not really. Depends on who is flying which plane and how well they know their ride. It is actually a good match up. I fly both, pretty often, as a matter of fact, and do okay in either, and I'm not even a good pilot.
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Originally posted by monteini
Fighting a F4U in a 38 in my oppinion is a bad idea anyway, the F4U will eat the 38 for diner any day.
While the F4u is a good plane , i wouldn't say that its gunna eat a 38 anyday. They both have their strengths and weaknesses , but one isnt dominant over the other.
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Anybody has a picture of how the P38 looks like with flaps fully deployed?
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
Anybody has a picture of how the P38 looks like with flaps fully deployed?
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Early model P38F with flaps out and late model P38L with flaps out.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739725_38fflaps.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739736_38lflaps.jpg)
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Dan has a picture of EVERYTHING. Except maybe me getting a kill. Some things are too rare to be captured on film. Like Sasquatch. Or SaVaGe getting a kill. Especially SaVaGe getting a kill in a P-38 these days and living long enough to see it.
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Those pics look like the a/c having pitch down attitude with full flaps down. How much pitch up do you think it can take with full throttle?
Flaps max 40 deg down? Add that to theoretical maximum estimate AoA for that wing profile ~16 deg = 56 deg.
I hope I'm in ballpark with that figure. Pretty much deflection anyway.
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Originally posted by Charge
Flaps max 40 deg down? Add that to theoretical maximum estimate AoA for that wing profile ~16 deg = 56 deg.
You mean nose elevation over ther horizon, not angle-of-attack.
The entire AoA issue is poorly defined and usually refers to a fixed shape wing. It is just a calibration for the lift/drag coefficient more than anything absolute. Changing the shape of the wing, as in dropping flaps, or slats, or whatever, requires a new definition for the AoA.
Bozon
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This evening I spent a few hours dueling with a few of the game's excellent pilots. I flew a P-38G with 50% fuel and was able to fight to a draw (no one could get angles to shoot) against an F4U-1D. This was largely due to the P-38G being able to fight a bit better in the vertical. I didn't use full flaps at all, simply due to the huge drag hit.
However, the P-38J proved to be more of a problem. You can chalk this up to the added weight. Plus, I found that dumping flaps while at 3 gs or better led to an instant snap-roll, and the loss of any advantage gained on the initial reverse.
It did not matter who flew the F4U-1D, it always won against the P-38J. Prior to the last update, that was not often the case. The reason for the change is not only increased drag associated with the flaps, but a general loss of stability. Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G.
F4Us were always remarkable at low speeds, and they still are.
Thanks to Murdr, Infensus (Bighorn), Creton, BatfinkV, Pooface and Brick31 for the great entertainment. Also a big WTG to Simaril, who keeps getting better and better. Folks, some nights the best furballs are actually in the TA.
My regards,
Widewing
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Dude AKAK, lots of people before patch used to fly 38 like a spit. Thats in a furball, where your flaps are out 70% of the time.
Its a big deal, and I don't see how I should have to work around a bug.
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"Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G. "
Do you have any internet sources of stall behaviour?
From what I have read the P38 has a gentle stall if stalled wings level which is supported by the flow energizing effect of CR propellors. Never hear or read of its gentle stall if pushed hard. Although never hear or read of any magnificent "departures", either...
Why do you compare it to F4U? It was not its historical adversary.
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"You mean nose elevation over ther horizon, not angle-of-attack. "
No, I mean the AoA of the wing, despite the changing profile upon flap deployment. If the wing is at 16 deg to airflow and you deploy full 40deg flaps so the flaps are at 56 deg to airflow. Simple as that.
It is a totally different matter if the wingprofile can support flow at 16deg at speeds of flap deloyment.
Just some theoretical blabber to raise thoughts.
-C+
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Originally posted by Widewing
............snip all the pertinent information from Widewing's typically excellent post.......
Also a big WTG to Simaril, who keeps getting better and better. ............
My regards,
Widewing
Well, I appreciate the sentiment....but the only direction I could go is up.....
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Originally posted by Lazerr
Dude AKAK, lots of people before patch used to fly 38 like a spit. Thats in a furball, where your flaps are out 70% of the time.
Its a big deal, and I don't see how I should have to work around a bug.
I fly the P-38 the same way but since it's the only plane I like to fly, I have to make do with what I got. So I either have to make do working around the bug or not fly at all.
ack-ack
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I only fly the G.
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Originally posted by Charge
"Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G. "
Do you have any internet sources of stall behaviour?
From what I have read the P38 has a gentle stall if stalled wings level which is supported by the flow energizing effect of CR propellors. Never hear or read of its gentle stall if pushed hard. Although never hear or read of any magnificent "departures", either...
Why do you compare it to F4U? It was not its historical adversary.
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I wasn't referring to the real P-38s, just those in the game. However, stall behavior of the real P-38s was excellent.
In the game, several issues have arisen since the update. We all know about the flap drag bug, but that's not the whole story.
Infensus and I were dueling with the F4U-1D and P-38J (I had the P-38), while under load (about 3 G), I toggled two notches of flaps rapidly. Previously, this had the effect of tightening the turn with hardly a trace of wobble. Not anymore... The P-38J instantly stalled, snap-rolled and spun. We were about 300 feet AGL, and it's not possible to recover when that low. So, I tried it again. Same result. Later, Infensus flew the P-38J and I had the F4U-1D. He had similar problems. So, there's more to the issue than the huge drag rise, there's the effect the drag rise has on inducing accelerated stalls, even with only partial flap deployment. A heavy-handed pilot can get into similar trouble in the P-38G too.
Whenever there's a change to a flight model, be it a single plane or all (as in this case), I go to the TA and test fly as many as possible, wringing them out fully. I find the limits, and push beyond the limits to discover how and when the planes depart and what is required to recover. I don't like surprises while in the midst of a brawl in the MA.
Our 109s, 190s, Ki-84, Ki-61 and the F6F all show marked improvement in stability at low speeds. P-47s and F4Us both improved when using flaps. P-51s, and P-40s lost a bit of agility due to increased drag when using flaps. Only the P-38s show a major negative shift in handling. I'm curious to see what the coming fix does.
My regards,
Widewing
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Well i hope they fix it than.
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should you turn fight with your flaps down?
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Originally posted by 68slayr
should you turn fight with your flaps down?
depends on the plane and usually only 1 or 2 notches. Full flaps even when not bugged is generaly a bad idea - unless you are just trying to stop in mid air.
Bozon
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Took the 38s for a testride today. Its true, they suck. They didnt before this patch but now they do. The instability in high G turns and most importantly, when stallriding in slow turns at high aoa, which plagued the 109s now haunts the 38s.
Its not as bad as the 109s were, but its still crazy that such a big plane will snaproll right and left under load.
Maybe its just me - but it seems the L model is less affected and is the better of the two late Lightnings now. The -J is ruined. They havent lost much overall, but the low speed handling took a serious beating - and that was about the only thing the P-38s had which made them competitive.
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has anyone noticed the nose on the 38J doesn't drop like a rock anymore when you chop throttle while riding the stall. I haven't flown the G and L much since the new patch not sure about them.
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I did some test flights in P38G and J and have to agree there is some loss in stability. I've never had as much trouble as I did trying to control the J at low speeds while using flaps, the G was a bit better but still generally unstable. It certainly makes them a bit more difficult to fly now. I also noticed the pitch change much more on both when using flaps.
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Whatever is wrong with the P-38s is far less that what was wrong with the 109s yet you have some of the guys who made excuses for the 109s jumping all over the 38 issues with out all the excuses.
Sure something seems wrong with the the P-38s and should be looked at and corrected.
See how that works, no BS rationalizations about how it must be 'correct'... None of that 'look at the K/Ds' or 'well if flown right its flies fine' etc..
If it has an issue, please fix it...
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just flew the G offline, doesn't seem to have the problems the J has. The J almost feels allot heavier than it used to or it is underpowered. climb rate and acceleration doesn't seemed to be hurt, not sure what happened but I want the old J back :)
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I read somewhere that the J had a horrible snap roll or stall buffet not sure which one but the L was suppose to have fixed that i guess it may help.
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
I read somewhere that the J had a horrible snap roll or stall buffet not sure which one but the L was suppose to have fixed that i guess it may help.
Do more reading. The difference between an L and a late J is power. The difference between an L and an early or mid J is dive flaps and boosted ailerons, along with power. No P-38 model was known for a snap roll or stall buffet issue.
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I dont mind. I can actually fly the 38 now. Not sure if thats a good thing!
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I don't believe there is any difference in the power in our J and L, somone with more P38 knowledge can chime in here but I'm pretty sure our J model actually accelerates a little quicker and climbs just a lil faster than our L. I think the only differences are the heavier reinforced control surfaces and the hydraulic boosted controls, also a dive flap or notch as I call it as it is not a true dive flap... The L may have a bit more HP than our J does, but I think the J more than compensates because it is lighter... The G model is the lightest model we have but also the slowest as it has quite a bit less HP than our J and L models.
I'm not sure exactly which model P38's we use in AH but we have allot of info about them on our squad site lots of good films by Murdr Akak and Pellik as well. Basically all you ever wanted to know about the 38 and more :)
http://479th.jasminemarie.com/index.php
This is a link that shows all of the 38 models, as I said before not sure exactly which we use in AH, this link can also be found on our site.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38.html
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I was referring to the real P-38, as opposed to the AH II P-38. The P-38L had considerably more power as rated by Lockheed and Allison, although the USAAC did not officially accept that rating.
It appears we have the P-38G-10-Lo, the P-38J-10-Lo, and the P-38L-5-Lo. I could be off a little, i've never seen HTC officially state EXACTLY which ones they modelled.
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cc Virgil I've never really heard them state which exact models we have either, according to the info on the link I posted earlier and copied and pasted below, the L doesn't seem to have much more power than the J, with all the added weight on the L, I don't think the small addition of a few extra HP equate out to the weight gain.
"The P-38J also had redesigned Prestone coolant scoops on the tail booms. All P-38Js retained the V-1719-89/91 engines of the P-38Hs, but their more efficient cooling installations enabled military rating at 27,000 feet to be increased from 1240 to 1425 hp, while at that altitude war emergency rating was 1600 hp. "
The P-38L was the final production version of the Lightning and was numerically the most important of all the Lightning versions. Lockheed built 3810 P-38Ls and Consolidated-Vultee at Nashville built 113 more. The P-38L was powered by 1475 hp Allison V-1710-111/113 engines with a war emergency rating of 1600 hp at 28,700 feet and a military rating of 1475 hp at 30,000 feet. Except for the more powerful engines, the P-38L was generally quite similar to the previous P-38J
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The L isn't really heavier than a J-25-Lo, other than the engines, they are pretty much identical.
The L here doesn't have any extra power. It is modelled to the J engines, at least they say it is.
The stuff over at Widewing's site (Planes and Pilots of World War II) is mostly Warren Bodie's data, long considered to be the gospel for the P-38, since Bodie was a Lockheed engineer and a founding member of the Split S Society. Not to mention he knew the core of the P-38 team personally, even including some of the USAAC personnel.
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Is it really? Flew it last night didn't seem too different, except for that stupid nose up deathstall lol.
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It isn't ruined you just need some rudder and you can control it easily. I don't really think anything is wrong with it I actually think it might be fixed. Then again it had aerodinamicliscious Ami flaps, so I mean it could be wrong, since I remember historically they could vector thrust. :D
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
I read somewhere that the J had a horrible snap roll or stall buffet not sure which one but the L was suppose to have fixed that i guess it may help.
you heard wrong.
ack-ack
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The final flap position is definately "bugged", but its only for landing, you would never use it for combat.
I took up a P-38J for a sortie last night and it seemed ok to me. Was involved in a sea level fight with multiple cons, I didn't plummet into the ground while trying to immelmann or turn.
The stall characteristics seem gentle to me, there is no torque to deal with, and it recovers nicely from a stall. I rather think the P-38 has one of the more pleasant FMs at low speed.
As far as the P-38 departing controlled flight, it could do that, as could every a/c. Some of you guys talk about it as if it wasn't able to be stalled because it had CR props.
All a/c were effected by the last patch, and perhaps thats all there is to it, outside of the final flap bug?
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The point is - the P-38 lost competitiveness. It may be more accurate now - i dont pretend to know enough about airplanes to say its right or wrong.
Call this thread a whine if you want :)
All aircraft were affected, yet only the P-38s are worse than before. It doesnt matter that you can easily recover from a stall or that it still has a good low speed handling. The point is - when riding the stall and you lose it for one moment the plane is going to jerk around, easily recoverable sure enough, but it takes precious time and subsequently hard-won angles in a dogfight. It's hard to describe but before the patch you could 'push through' the stall for a little moment and get that tiny little bit of lead to get your shot in - or yourself out of the bullet stream.
The P-38 never had a huge turning advantage to begin with, so even a little 'issue' turns out to be a serious dent in its dogfighting capability.
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"The P-38 never had a huge turning advantage to begin with, so even a little 'issue' turns out to be a serious dent in its dogfighting capability."
Well, that could be said of a few other planes, too... :aok
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which 'few other planes' do you refer to? Which plane besides the 38 got neutered in the last patch? Its an honest question, i havent flown all planes after the patch.
Oh, if you allude to the 109 slats/turn instability .. they were seriously and undeniably porked as a fighter but this is a thread about the 38s, please dont try to make a cheap shot axis/ally "my plane was bad so yours can be too" comeback.
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"please dont try to make a cheap shot axis/ally "my plane was bad so yours can be too" comeback."
Sry but I just did.
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Originally posted by leitwolf
The point is - the P-38 lost competitiveness.
Stop crying that the sky is falling...sheesh.
The P-38 has not lost its competitiveness, you just have to take care when engaging full flaps and make sure not to ride it like previously. You can still kill stuff in it quite easily.
ack-ack
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Hell I like the 38 after the patch! I suck and even *I* got kills in it!!!!
I find it turns a LOT better without flaps. This might be my impression, and I'm by no means a 38 expert, but there's 2 types of "feel" for the 38. Without and with flaps. It turns better now with flaps up, than it did before with flaps up. I've had no trouble following and latching onto targets whereas before I had to work a bit more. If I have to get flaps out I know I'm in trouble anyways (flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em), so I use 2-3 notches max for P38s (unless I'm coming out of a stalled loop), so I can't vouch for the "flaps out" turns.
The "flaps up" turn seems crisper to me. Just one opinion out of many.
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The P-38 has not lost its competitiveness, you just have to take care when engaging full flaps and make sure not to ride it like previously. You can still kill stuff in it quite easily
Sure. You can still kill stuff in the P38. You can also get kills in a Spitfire I. Its not even difficult.
But unlike some pilots, not everyone is picking victims from the stratosphere ;) some actually fight low and slow in it.
The possibility to do so in the Lightning is not as good as before. Nothing more, nothing less.
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If I have to get flaps out I know I'm in trouble anyways (flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em), so I use 2-3 notches max for P38s (unless I'm coming out of a stalled loop), so I can't vouch for the "flaps out" turns.
Flying fast works in (almost) every plane. The P-38 has exceptional snapshot/over the nose shooting capability, no doubt.
I'm not talking about "kills" or "success", i'm talking about dogfighting prowess.
flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em
is totally wrong with respect to the 'old' P-38. It used to be a very good dogfighting machine exactly in your no-no scenario.
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That doesn't mean it was accurate or correct before.
I'm not talking 450mph bnz from the stratosphere picks here, I'm talking dogfights, but I mean dogfights where you're paying attention to your speed and flying smart (trying to stay above 160mph) and so forth.
That in no way means I'm timid, and am afraid to use flaps.
Fact is flaps still work. To me they work almost like the flaps of old, but with more drag (more realistic, the US flaps pre 2.07 were total BS and almost everybody knew it). It's only the last notch that has major problems.
As for a little instability in the 38: I didn't notice any. I was pulling through stalls, through loops, I was pulling pretty tightly. I never once snap-stalled, or spun out, hell I haven't even gotten into the spin-O-death lately. I'm by no means a gentle soul on the stick, either.
Perhaps your stick is far too sensitive. In ANY plane if you pull up hard enough you can instantly spin/stall yourself out. This is true of most planes with great elevator authority, and the 38 fits into that category.
Perhaps my experience in the 190s has taught me to use the elevator gently, because I've not had any of the problems the folks here have been mentioning.
Your mileage may vary.
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I have no idea about the accuracy of the US flaps now and then. I even agree with you they may have been too good, and i certainly dont know how the P-51 can be such a damn good dogfighter across the whole speed regime (using flaps, that is). This is just a gut feeling, I dont pretend to know anything about aerodynamics to make an informed statement whether this is correct or not. I'm not even advocating "fix my plane or else" ;)
I'm just reaffirming the topic of this thread and the consequences of that: it screws the P38 as a dogfighter. This may actually be more "historical" than before, but: It does have an instability now which resembles, while not as severe, the issues of the 109.
Oh, and its certainly not my joystick or my lack of time in the 190 :)
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I have a new found respect for the F4U series after messing around in the TA with Widewing last night, those dang F4U's can freakin hover!!!
Been flying the PJ around allot lately and all you have to do is take care when using the last few notches of flaps, especially the last 1, I'll just use it for a split second or so, just to sidestep or slow it down allot in a rolling scissors maneuver. I used to think it was porked even more but I now see it just takes a little bit more thought lol. If anything that last notch kinda helps you slow it down to make someone overshoot, works like a fraking dive brake in a P47-40. Just take care when using the flaps and remember to retract them manually, when they auto retract is generally when I see problems. Just takes a while to get used to it, then its no problemo.
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I've noticed almost no difference in the F4u-1 model. I haven't flown the D-hog much, but the C-hog is the same.
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krusty I wasn't saying the F4U series changed or anything like that, I just never really knew that they could hover like they do. I'm gonna have to start flying them more, I never knew they could maneuver like they do.
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Originally posted by Krusty
If I have to get flaps out I know I'm in trouble anyways (flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em
I guess I screw up just about every fight then.
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I do more than I care to admit, too :D
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Originally posted by Stang
I guess I screw up just about every fight then.
actually, Krusty doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to fighting in the P-38.
ack-ack
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I wouldn't say that. I would say, however, that I've not been a fan of the "US Uber Flappen" from pre-2.07, and didn't game-the-game every chance I flew one :)
That made me try to learn to fly without needing (absolutely needing) flaps.
Perhaps I'm better off for it. Perhaps not. Who knows.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not talking 450mph bnz from the stratosphere picks here, I'm talking dogfights, but I mean dogfights where you're paying attention to your speed and flying smart (trying to stay above 160mph) and so forth.
As for a little instability in the 38: I didn't notice any. I was pulling through stalls, through loops, I was pulling pretty tightly. I never once snap-stalled, or spun out, hell I haven't even gotten into the spin-O-death lately. I'm by no means a gentle soul on the stick, either.
He who does not know about the subject at hand should not reply thinking he does. You keep comparing P38 flaps to other US fighters. You can't do that because they are different all together.
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I should have read this thread before flying a 38G last night.
Took one up to 28k on an escort flight for my squaddies BAM1 and Hand. I hadn't flown an AH 38 for months.
I was suprised how well it handeled at that alt and when a few Lala's tried to climb up to my flock they were sent back down rather easily, as it should be alt/performance wise.
The problem was with trying to land. Used to be that the 38 would hold E like crazy while on approach. So as I used to do, I started deploying flaps and using cross controls to slow down. Everything was going great untill I hit the last notch. Suddenly my airspeed dropped from 130 or so to about 90 and even with full throttle the nose dropped and I slammed into the ground 100 yds short of the runway.
So, as far as full flaps are concerned, it's horked. I just wish that there was some sort of NOTAM letting others know of the bug.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
You keep comparing P38 flaps to other US fighters. You can't do that because they are different all together.
I fail to see how. The flaps work the same way as most US aircraft flaps. You might use them a little differently because of the torque-less setup and whatnot, but for the most part they're the same, same code, same effect.
You're saying you can't learn to use flaps in a 38 then use them the same way in a 51? And vice versa?
Far be it from me to question one who makes the 38 his main ride, but as a "casual" flyer of the 38 there's little perceived difference.
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Originally posted by Flatbar
ISo, as far as full flaps are concerned, it's horked. I just wish that there was some sort of NOTAM letting others know of the bug.
Actually, there have been quite a few threads about the current P-38 drag/flap bug. Just limit your use to 4 notches unless special circumstances briefly require full flaps.
My regards,
Widewing
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So what would you guys say is the difference between 38 flaps and pony flaps? In general summary, I mean (go into detail if ya like, but I'm more curious about the general feel).
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Extend flaps in a pony, and you still have the same square footage of wing area that you started with, extend them in a P-38, and you have more wing area than you started with.
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Perhaps in real life. In AH the effect is you reduce your stall speed, I don't know how complex the game code is, but in AH what is the difference? Practically speaking?
I had it in my mind to learn more of the US rides this tour, but I've had precious little MA time. Don't get much P38 practice in T34s in Stalin's 4th either. I'd like to know what the more experience 38 pilots think about the 38 flaps compared to other USAF flaps.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That made me try to learn to fly without needing (absolutely needing) flaps.
Perhaps I'm better off for it. Perhaps not. Who knows.
That is why I say that you don't have any experience in flying or fighting in the P-38. Flaps are necessary to successfully turn fight in a P-38 and not something that is to be used as a last resort in the Lightning, unlike most other planes.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Murdr
Extend flaps in a pony, and you still have the same square footage of wing area that you started with, extend them in a P-38, and you have more wing area than you started with.
Even though the square footage is the same, the flaps still increase lift, right?
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Originally posted by Widewing
Actually, there have been quite a few threads about the current P-38 drag/flap bug. Just limit your use to 4 notches unless special circumstances briefly require full flaps.
My regards,
Widewing
A NOTAM posted as a MOTD was what I was refering to. Not all players cruise these boards. I would think that a bug that adversly affects the ability for an a/c to stay in the air should be announced to all players....but there I go thinking again.
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Some US planes(P40) use the split flap, where the lower half of the wing drops down increasing wing camber and thereby increasing lift.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/910_1145685730_p40split.jpg)[/IMG]
Most use the conventional flap(51), where the wing trailing edge surface deflects down incrasing wing camber and lift.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/910_1145685707_51conventional.jpg)[/IMG]
P38 uses fowler flaps, where the flaps dont just move down but OUT and DOWN, increasing both wing camber and wing area.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/910_1145685684_38fowler2.jpg)[/IMG]
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/910_1145685641_38fowler1.jpg)[/IMG]
The difference is that for every pound of lift generated they produce a lot less drag than the conventional flaps. The split flaps are the worst in this respect btw.
This has allowed me at time to pull off landing like this one........:eek: :aok :aok
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/910_1140295983_ahss0.jpg)[/IMG]
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I'm no longer a hardcore P-38 driver, now just the occasional hop, but I will say that I definitely noticed a stall characteristic difference since the update.
Before, when I used to fly with the 475th in the MA, I only once (EVER) went into a tailslide-stall with it, and that was in a J. Every other time, it either flipped over onto its back or snapped the nose down. Very rarely it would flip over a wing and drop that way. Rarely spun.
Since the update, I tail-slid 3 times in ONE DAY, several times went into a reverse snap (rolled left in a right turn), and even stalled out on a short approach.
It also seems to mush a lot worse when pulling out of a dive or trying to snap the nose up, but that may just be me.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
I think is was a take from the Allied and give to the Luftwaffe....38 isn't the only Allied plane that got burned.
yeh ive noticed the major drag to, in the 2.06 patch i used 2 turn with a6m's in a spit mk1 (NOT a joke!) and most of the time out turn them, but now in the 2.07 i can just turn with them (depending on the pilot) and in most cases i do a horizontal turn going from speed of 85-100 mph(full flaps, NOT a joking) and the plane looks like its in a constant seizure, and now i can turn w/ a spit 16 in a 14 (bloody hard but possible) but this is a really good thing, the 16 was, and still partially is the ultimate n00b plane, and prob the most used spit in H2H
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ack ack there is a difference in the 38 and how would u know
of flap problem? at 30k picking afk planes and buffs u dont need flaps:eek: