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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on April 07, 2006, 11:44:42 PM

Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 07, 2006, 11:44:42 PM
Using StumbleUpon, I found this on Craigslist:

Quote
10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong

01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.


Pretty funny, and it seems to address most of the points I've seen brought up on the subject.

Personally, I say let 'em have the same misery the rest of us have, but I know that there are diverging opinions here.  Thought I'd share the above quote for y'alls entertainment.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 07, 2006, 11:52:45 PM
i'm in favor of legalizeing bigamy for hermaphrodites
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: RAIDER14 on April 07, 2006, 11:55:31 PM
Gay Marriage = AIDS
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 07, 2006, 11:56:44 PM
hey, do you know anything about getting on of those state ballot measures going?
i think i need about 50,000 signatures to get a really really funny joke on the ballot & need some help...
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 07, 2006, 11:56:48 PM
:rofl

Hadn't seen that yet, thanks for sharing :lol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 12:32:17 AM
"If you tolerate something, you allow it to exist."


While I personally don't care whether or not gays are allowed to marry, I will not for one second admit that there is nothing wrong with it.  And because of this, I will always vote against it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 12:33:56 AM
Specifics?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 12:43:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by RAIDER14
Gay Marriage = AIDS



That's just, well, won't take that as a serious comment.  

And, yet, your (presumed) heterosexuality would certainly prevent you from catching the virus from a homosexual who was happily involved in an monogamous marriage, would it not?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 12:48:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184

While I personally don't care whether or not gays are allowed to marry, I will not for one second admit that there is nothing wrong with it.  And because of this, I will always vote against it.


I'm also curious as to what you think might be wrong with it.  Your entitled to your opinion of course, but I was wondering if you would say that the thing(s) you think are wrong with it also directly negatively affect you?

I'm just thinking there are alot of legal things out there that people could find wrong with, and yet they are still legal, at least in part because they don't *really* hurt anyone.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 01:09:36 AM
Because I was just taught that way.  I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Sandman on April 08, 2006, 01:23:19 AM
NM
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 08, 2006, 01:31:13 AM
Public flatulence death penalty.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 08, 2006, 02:26:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
Public flatulence death penalty.


RAIDER14 post just fit in this category.
Title: Lasers
Post by: moot on April 08, 2006, 05:21:51 AM
So you're life's just some happy coincidence?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 08, 2006, 05:33:15 AM
Homosexuality is a choice ROFLMAO!!

According to this reasoning, heterosexuality is a choice too. Then you must be equally attracted by men and women.

I don't know what floats your boat, but I can tell you that the choice was a no-brainer in my case ;)

Btw, I'm pro gay-marriage and I'm since recently pro-adoption by gays. I've seen too much hetero parents who should have been sterilized. At least, in the case of adoption by gays, there will be a serious inquiry to see if they can be trusted with a child's future.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Suave on April 08, 2006, 06:07:37 AM
I think that most gays will await the legalization of gay divorce before they get gay engaged.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: storch on April 08, 2006, 06:15:10 AM
I think gay marriage is a perfect fit for europe.  that would put one more nail in the coffin of western culture and ideology.  furthermore it will give American gays (two words that should never go together) additional "progressive" (progressive, what a hoot) countries in which to live.  I think gay marriage will never be accepted in America and as such we will become the western cultural redoubt, spared by God Almighty from the sword and rampant disease as moslems and poopchutitis eradicate the caucasian race from europe.  Once the devils work is complete we will then repopulate europe with hispanics as we have done in America.  It will be a far better place, trust me on this.  I hope you guys like Cuban food, oh wait never mind, you'll all be in that hell you don't believe in.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 08, 2006, 07:02:10 AM
I think gays should have the right to get married and live happily ever after just as soon as we get a large enough shuttle to provide them ALL transportation to their new home on some far away planet. One generation should do the trick.
This would free up resources and manpower to devote to the legalization of child molestation , murder and other such natural acts.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: moot on April 08, 2006, 07:06:23 AM
Cue Freud
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: SirLoin on April 08, 2006, 07:44:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I think gays should have the right to get married and live happily ever after just as soon as we get a large enough shuttle to provide them ALL transportation to their new home on some far away planet. One generation should do the trick.
 



Hey,i got a name for your far away planet Jackal.

"New Treblinka"...:aok

There might even be employment opportunities over there for a good Commandant.



 :rolleyes:
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 08, 2006, 07:55:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin
There might even be employment opportunities over there for a good Commandant.
 


That`s just great. I`m sure , by reading some of the limp wrist, liberal posters here that there would be a few who would wish to apply for the position of "His Panziness." :aok
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 08, 2006, 08:08:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Because I was just taught that way.  I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth.


11) Fortunately, everything that we were taught when we were growing up is true; our parents and ancestors always had it right (despite what science may “prove”) and they never disagreed on anything.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Thrawn on April 08, 2006, 10:25:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Because I was just taught that way.  I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth.


That's understandble, the people that taught you this probably weren't aware of biological studies done about homosexual in the past few years.  But you have the opportunity to become informed about them now.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 10:57:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
That's understandble, the people that taught you this probably weren't aware of biological studies done about homosexual in the past few years.  But you have the opportunity to become informed about them now.



And you aren't aware that all of those biological studies are Bull**** performed by BIASED institutes.  Check it out, it's true.


Would you be skeptical if a Conservative institute published a study saying that the best presidents ever were Republicans, not democrats?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 10:58:45 AM
Laser, are you saying that the only people who aren't biased are the ones who say homosexuality is perverted and aberrent?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: midnight Target on April 08, 2006, 11:20:17 AM
Careful Storch, there's a gay Cuban standing behind you.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 11:25:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Laser, are you saying that the only people who aren't biased are the ones who say homosexuality is perverted and aberrent?


No, not at all.  

It's just that every study that I see that says homosexuality is hereditary or some nonsense is from a biased institute and posted on a biased website.

Don't take every study and just assume it's right.  You have to look at the other studies they've performed.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 11:27:56 AM
Can you provide some examples of the other studies that aren't biased?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 11:44:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
I think that most gays will await the legalization of gay divorce before they get gay engaged.



 :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: john9001 on April 08, 2006, 11:45:26 AM
i favor gay marriage, why should the gays be denied the fun of a divorce, only problem is how will the lawyers figure out which one to give all the money and stuff to.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 11:48:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by storch
I think gay marriage is a perfect fit for europe.  that would put one more nail in the coffin of western culture and ideology.  



I'm taking your post a bit tongue in cheek.  If you were serious though, you really might want to take a look into some history books, specifically those dealing with Ancient Greece and Rome (you know, arguably the two main prototypes/models) of western culture.

In the Greek world, homosexuality, bisexuality, whatever, was considered a pretty natural thing.  Almost expected, certainly tolerated.

In the Roman world, there were, for sure, times when it was outlawed.  However, there were also times when there'd be gay emperors (think Hadrian).  

So really, I disagree with your statement that gay marriage would be another nail in the coffin of western culture and ideology.  Rather, I would say that it would be one more nail OUT of the coffin that was the Dark Ages.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 08, 2006, 12:09:38 PM
my guess is that the only people who will benifiet will be property settlement lawyers...

If it is good for lawyers then it is bad for us.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Shuckins on April 08, 2006, 12:21:35 PM
On the issue of whether or not gay-marriage should be sanctioned by the government I'm neither hot nor cold.

This might be off-topic slightly, but a short perusal of Google yields the following facts about the gay life-style that ought to give pause to anyone seriously considering adopting that life-style:

Members of a gay couple, or spousal arrangement, are nearly twice as likely as members of a straight couple to suffer some form of physical abuse.

Contrary to the trend in other areas of the world, the rate of HIV infection in the U.S. among the gay population is at 25%, far higher than in the heterosexual community.  Efforts to reverse this trend in the city of San Francisco have not been nearly as successful as those concerned with gay health issues had hoped.

Rates of infection by sexually-transmitted diseases, particularly Hepatitis A and B, are much higher in the gay community, due primarily to a reluctance on the part of members of that community to forego the practice of unprotected anal intercourse, and to widespread drub abuse involving the sharing of needles.  (The reluctance to give up the sharing of needles puzzles me, for the dangers of such use have been widely known for decades.)

A much greater prevalence of mental disturbance, often leading to suicide, which the gay-community attributes to the "hostility" of homophobes in American society.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 08, 2006, 12:48:02 PM
Funny to see who the 'racists' are.

....or maybe they are just staying in charchter, trying to act like Nazi's?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 12:48:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
On the issue of whether or not gay-marriage should be sanctioned by the government I'm neither hot nor cold.

This might be off-topic slightly, but a short perusal of Google yields the following facts about the gay life-style that ought to give pause to anyone seriously considering adopting that life-style:

Members of a gay couple, or spousal arrangement, are nearly twice as likely as members of a straight couple to suffer some form of physical abuse.

Contrary to the trend in other areas of the world, the rate of HIV infection in the U.S. among the gay population is at 25%, far higher than in the heterosexual community.  Efforts to reverse this trend in the city of San Francisco have not been nearly as successful as those concerned with gay health issues had hoped.

Rates of infection by sexually-transmitted diseases, particularly Hepatitis A and B, are much higher in the gay community, due primarily to a reluctance on the part of members of that community to forego the practice of unprotected anal intercourse, and to widespread drub abuse involving the sharing of needles.  (The reluctance to give up the sharing of needles puzzles me, for the dangers of such use have been widely known for decades.)

A much greater prevalence of mental disturbance, often leading to suicide, which the gay-community attributes to the "hostility" of homophobes in American society.


One of the reasons the rate of HIV infection is so high amongst gays these days is that HIV has really lost much of it's "bite."  Many people see it as a manageable disability with the new drugs instead of the killer it truly is.  You can blame advertisements that show cowboy-looking gays "with" HIV for this, to some extent.

Also, though I don't claim it's a hereditary thing, I also wouldn't say that people necessarily "choose" to "adopt" the lifestyle.  Studies (yes, I know they may be biased, they're in my sociology textbook for crying out loud) have shown that there are four main "stages" to the process:

1.  Sensitization - usually pre-puberty, one becomes sensitive to the fact that they don't "fit in" with society's gender roles for their particular sex.

2.  Awareness - usually early adolescents, one becomes aware that their fantasies and/or desires may be considered homosexual.  Often, the person tries to repress or "cure" this by going out and having as much heterosexual sex as possible or going on anti-homosexual tirades, etc.

3.  Acceptance - usually late adolescents, one finally accepts their sexuality and are fairly happy about it.  A few close friends are told about the big "secret" (had to chuckle at that one)

4.  Commitment - post acceptance, the person's now fully out of the closet and openly commits self to their "new" lifestyle.  Everyone's told (perhaps for grandma's sake you leave her out) and you're totally committed to the fact that you're gay.

Now I'm not holding this up to be fact or the law of the land.  I'm just running them off quickly so those of you who's girlfriend never made them take "Marriage and the Family" in college will know what ideas are floating around out there.

Personally, from the few gay friends I have, this seems to pretty accurately describe their situations.  However, I don't know nearly enough gays to say this is representative of the majority.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 08, 2006, 01:48:18 PM
Its impossible to do a study without some bias, Heisenbeerg uncertainty principle, etc.
Take me for example.
I'm so handsome & attractive that when i looked into this, all the men were gay & none of the women were.
Every dog I've ever me has humped my leg, even hotdogs.
I was killed when three supermodels flinged themselves off a 6th floor balcony & landed on me
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 08, 2006, 01:57:14 PM
Looking at it dispassionately.... We have to decide what it is that we want to achieve by the sanctioning of marriage.

Do we wish to reward behavior that is benificial to society by pairing up domestic partnerships only?

Or do we wish to reward parents who make the commitment to raise a child in marriage?

Do we think that heterosexual marriage is important enough to not marginalize it?  maybe marginalize is too strong a word?  "dillute" is certainly accurate tho.

The vast majority of the people in the U.S. are heterosexual... they simply do not want to be lumped in with gays on the marriage thing.

maybe the gays just need a new term to describe their domestic contract?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 02:28:09 PM
Lazs, when you talk about 'rewarding' behavior, it sounds as if you're suggesting that the government has an almost parental role in our society.  I'd like to suggest that the role of the government should be limited, not expanded.  Are your convictions on this subject changing?  Have you decided that the government should meddle more and not less?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 08, 2006, 02:52:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't take every study and just assume it's right.  You have to look at the other studies they've performed.


Hilarious.

This from the same guy who wrote this:

"Because I was just taught that way. I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth."

:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 03:24:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Looking at it dispassionately.... We have to decide what it is that we want to achieve by the sanctioning of marriage.

Do we wish to reward behavior that is benificial to society by pairing up domestic partnerships only?

Or do we wish to reward parents who make the commitment to raise a child in marriage?

Do we think that heterosexual marriage is important enough to not marginalize it?  maybe marginalize is too strong a word?  "dillute" is certainly accurate tho.

The vast majority of the people in the U.S. are heterosexual... they simply do not want to be lumped in with gays on the marriage thing.

maybe the gays just need a new term to describe their domestic contract?

lazs


Well, I don't know if what I'm about to say could be viewed as looking at it dispassionately, but, in my opinion, what I'd like to achieve by legalizing gay marriage is simply to ensure that yet another group of Americans are allowed the pursuit of happiness.  It's just one of those things I believe every American is entitled to.  And being told, "sorry fella, you can't marry who you love" kinda kills that pursuit.

I'd agree with you that if gays were ok with coming up with an alternative term to their domestic contract, things would be great.  However, I can also see how many would not want to do this on the basis that "seperate but equal" can't be equal.  And, given the two options here, I'm going to have to side with them.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Shuckins on April 08, 2006, 03:35:14 PM
Vucak, nice posts.

While I agree with you about everyone having the right to the pursuit of happines, in real life that right too often grates against the right to freedom of association, or perhaps, more correctly, the freedom to not associate with groups one finds to be objectionable.

I don't know if there is a solution to that conundrum, but I feel that it is the crux of the matter.

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 03:40:04 PM
Which of these objections apply differently to interracial marriage?   Historically, there has been large scale public disapproval over the idea of people of different races marrying, especially in the United States.

Would their right to not associate with the objectionable behavior of interracial marriage qualify as a legit reason to ban said act?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 03:45:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins


While I agree with you about everyone having the right to the pursuit of happines, in real life that right too often grates against the right to freedom of association, or perhaps, more correctly, the freedom to not associate with groups one finds to be objectionable.

I don't know if there is a solution to that conundrum, but I feel that it is the crux of the matter.




Well, I can definately see what you're saying.  But one's freedom to not associate with groups one finds to be objectionable won't change that much with a marriage.  I figure that if a gay couple is walking down the street holding hands or kissing or whatever, it doesn't really matter if they're dating or married, if you don't like that sort of thing you're going to find it objectionable either way.

Then again, you might be driving at that people would not like to associate with gays in a sense that we would all be part of the larger "married pool."  I can see that, but it's not really (IMO) much different then being part of the same "single pool" or "divorced pool" or even "human pool." The only real difference is a term.

Of course, for varying reasons, that term means an awful lot to some people.  Still, the term means alot to both sides.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: MotleyCH on April 08, 2006, 04:19:44 PM
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e28/grimsfx/trolling.jpg)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 04:34:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Hilarious.

This from the same guy who wrote this:

"Because I was just taught that way. I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth."

:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl



I am biased,  I make no illusions about it.

However, when a group comes out with a study saying that Homosexuality is hereditary, you have to look at the studies by them published previously.  Like if they publish studies showing that liberals are truly happier, or that the populace is healthier with universal health care programs, it calls the results of ANY STUDY into question.

While you might think I am exhaggerating, you'd be surprised how true this often is, for both sides.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 08, 2006, 05:30:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Which of these objections apply differently to interracial marriage?   Historically, there has been large scale public disapproval over the idea of people of different races marrying, especially in the United States.

Would their right to not associate with the objectionable behavior of interracial marriage qualify as a legit reason to ban said act?


I just love it when someone trys to mingle in the idea that gays are a race of people. Race/racism has nothing whatsoever to do with the with the panzy packers. Then the human rights BS is thrown in for more smoke and mirrors. From my point of view, to expect and receive human rights you should first be a human being or at the very least act like one. IMO gays are nor do either. More like an experiment gone wrong that produces some mutant, disgusting life form.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 08, 2006, 06:48:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I just love it when someone trys to mingle in the idea that gays are a race of people. Race/racism has nothing whatsoever to do with the with the panzy packers. Then the human rights BS is thrown in for more smoke and mirrors. From my point of view, to expect and receive human rights you should first be a human being or at the very least act like one. IMO gays are nor do either. More like an experiment gone wrong that produces some mutant, disgusting life form.


You missed the point entirely.  The point is that people didn’t want to acknowledge/recognize/allow interracial marriage basically because they found it objectionable.  Nowadays people don’t want to acknowledge/recognize/allow gay marriage basically because they found it objectionable.  Laws should never discriminate because some people find others to be objectionable.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 08, 2006, 07:21:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
You missed the point entirely.  The point is that people didn�t want to acknowledge/recognize/allow interracial marriage basically because they found it objectionable.  Nowadays people don�t want to acknowledge/recognize/allow gay marriage basically because they found it objectionable.  


Oh I got the point just fine. Trying to compare the two situations is exactly what it comes out as. Ridiculous.



Quote
Laws should never discriminate because some people find others to be objectionable. [/B][/QUOT


People being the key word here. If you wish and expect human rights, in my view, you have to be a human being or at least act as such. Gays are neither.
The laws of nature are the ones who have anything to do with the pastel purse swingers. They go directly against it.
Would you also like to legalize child molestation and murder, for examples?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 08, 2006, 07:23:26 PM
Hey, we should all shut up and listen to Lazs when he's talking about the value of marriage. After all, he's been married a lot of times (3? 4?) and he's certainly the expert on that subject! :lol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 08, 2006, 07:50:55 PM
Jackal, the rest of your tirade aside, show me the laws of nature being violated by homosexuals.  

BTW, to use your own line, "I love it when people try to mingle the idea that child molestation and homosexuality are linked".  In the exact same post, you bluster because I asked a reasonable question about the motivations, then you say the same dang thing except twisted to your purposes.

Also, I'd love to hear some fact based rationale for your statement that homosexuals aren't really people.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 08, 2006, 07:52:39 PM
Jackal,

Having the opinion that gays don't act like human beings is one thing.  Flat out saying they are not human beings is quite another.

I wonder, what exactly would you prefer we call them? Untermenschen perhaps?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lasersailor184 on April 08, 2006, 08:27:12 PM
Quote
Laws should never discriminate because some people find others to be objectionable.


Laws do it all the time.  Drug laws, Alcohol Laws, Firearm Laws, Pedophilia Laws...

All things that someone finds objectionable.


We have to accept them as people.  We have to do this for everyone.  But don't for one second think that we need to accept any behavior that is outlandish or wrong just because it does come from people.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: john9001 on April 08, 2006, 08:35:40 PM
homosexuals cannot reproduce, so how can homosexuality be hereditary?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 08, 2006, 08:49:28 PM
Hermaphrodites can't reproduce either but they can make p0rn.
neither can anyone who dies of a hereditary condition before the age of 10
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Yeager on April 08, 2006, 09:18:23 PM
ship all teh gays to europe......
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: storch on April 08, 2006, 09:19:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
ship all teh gays to europe......
I already said that, copycat
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: storch on April 08, 2006, 09:23:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
homosexuals cannot reproduce, so how can homosexuality be hereditary?
there may be something to that.  by way of an example I present europe as exhibit "A"
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Nash on April 08, 2006, 09:26:05 PM
Listen to these people.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 09, 2006, 03:17:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
show me the laws of nature being violated by homosexuals.  


Male/female= natural
Where did you come from? It certainly wasn`t from Robert and James. :)

Quote
BTW, to use your own line, "I love it when people try to mingle the idea that child molestation and homosexuality are linked".


That`s not my line . :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 09, 2006, 03:23:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Jackal,

Having the opinion that gays don't act like human beings is one thing.  Flat out saying they are not human beings is quite another.
 


Guilty as charged.

Quote
I wonder, what exactly would you prefer we call them?


For the most part I`ll leave that up to your imagination.
"Gone" would work for me :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 09, 2006, 03:34:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Male/female= natural
 


Snails are aliens ?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 09, 2006, 03:49:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Snails are aliens ?


I thought you would probably call them "food" . :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 09, 2006, 04:01:03 AM
yes :)

Look at reproduction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snail

Is it natural or not ?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 09, 2006, 04:31:34 AM
I still dont know if/who hermaphrodites are allowed to marry & how many
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 09, 2006, 05:08:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
yes :)

Look at reproduction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snail

Is it natural or not ?


No thanks. Not really interested in snail reproduction system. It does not pertain. Get back to me when a couple of backseat boogie boyz have their first child. :)
You can compare apples and oranges if you want to..... or in this case humans to fruits.
:rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Thud on April 09, 2006, 05:20:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Because I was just taught that way.  I was taught that Homosexuality is a choice, not something that happens by birth.


You were taught? By whom, your parents, kindergarten teacher or your sports coach, how many decades ago?
Hell, I always thought that an adult would've found out by now that one can reflect upon issues by oneself instead of passively repeating what others have put in its head....
It is called forming an opinion on something and you can do it all by yourself! Might want to try it for once.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: DiabloTX on April 09, 2006, 05:38:58 AM
You know, as long as they're adults and not harming anyone, live and let live.  Homosexuality isn't exclusive to humans.  It's not my seen by any stretch of the imagination.  And I also don't want someone else telling me what I can or can not do in my bedroom just because they don't like it or makes them uncomfortable.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 09, 2006, 07:10:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Listen to these people.


Political and social lemmings.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: SirLoin on April 09, 2006, 10:00:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Hey, we should all shut up and listen to Lazs when he's talking about the value of marriage.  :lol


i'd weigh the opinion on marriage by someone who's been through one(or more) more than someone who ain't ever given it a shot (i'm guessing).
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 09, 2006, 10:10:39 AM
chair.... it is the people who want to legalize gay marriage that are the ones that want to expand government.

It is not just the going to the courthouse and getting the paperwork...  it is the way that taxes are paid and it is the myriad of federal and state laws that apply to married people.

If you want gay marriage then you want to expand government.  

On another note... interracial marriage is nothing like gay marriage... Children are allways the difference.   I did not set the government rewards in place.   I would have no taxes if it were up to me but...

since we do have taxes and there is a system.... I think hetrosexual marriage is a good thing and should be "rewarded" by less extorting of moneys (taxes).  

I see no reason to lessen or marginalize hetro marriage by allowing gays or dogs or whatever to marry.  

Gay marriage only expands government and costs us all money for.... for what?   and if we make hetro marriage even more meaningless.... is that a good thing?   Hardly.

Like I said.. the only people who come out in this are the lawyers and the politicians.

Let hetros have their marriage.... the gays need to find something else.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Casca on April 09, 2006, 10:56:09 AM
What gay folks do is of little moment or concern to me.  If they want to go though a ceremony and call it anything they want I think its just ... fabulous.

If however one accepts gay marriage as a cultural and legal institution by what logic can one exclude polygamy/polyandry?  Polygamy has much stronger cultural and historical claims to the institution than gay unions.

At that juncture the term "marriage" starts to become so diluted as to be essentially meaningless.  Say, that wouldn't be the ultimate objective here would it?  Nah.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: SirLoin on April 09, 2006, 10:58:15 AM
The main thing that is diluting the term "Marriage" is divorce.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Sandman on April 09, 2006, 12:00:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Casca
What gay folks do is of little moment or concern to me.  If they want to go though a ceremony and call it anything they want I think its just ... fabulous.

If however one accepts gay marriage as a cultural and legal institution by what logic can one exclude polygamy/polyandry?  Polygamy has much stronger cultural and historical claims to the institution than gay unions.

At that juncture the term "marriage" starts to become so diluted as to be essentially meaningless.  Say, that wouldn't be the ultimate objective here would it?  Nah.


I'm all for polygamy too. ;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 09, 2006, 12:27:47 PM
You people that think of "Normal" as anything more than a Z score are freaks.


Normal, wow what a great word  :rofl

You know in my Town awhile back a Transsexual wanted to goto the highschool that she is required by law to goto.  Apprently some people thought she wasn't 'normal' enough.


And another thing ... the govemenrt doesn't ALLOW you to do anything, they only PREVENT you form doing things.  Amazeing what permissive 'men' some of you guy are   :p
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: mora on April 09, 2006, 12:32:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Casca
At that juncture the term "marriage" starts to become so diluted as to be essentially meaningless.  Say, that wouldn't be the ultimate objective here would it?  Nah.

Marriage should defintely be abolished when it comes to law and goverment. It would stop the crying from both sides.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 12:39:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Well, I don't know if what I'm about to say could be viewed as looking at it dispassionately, but, in my opinion, what I'd like to achieve by legalizing gay marriage is simply to ensure that yet another group of Americans are allowed the pursuit of happiness.  It's just one of those things I believe every American is entitled to.  And being told, "sorry fella, you can't marry who you love" kinda kills that pursuit.

I'd agree with you that if gays were ok with coming up with an alternative term to their domestic contract, things would be great.  However, I can also see how many would not want to do this on the basis that "seperate but equal" can't be equal.  And, given the two options here, I'm going to have to side with them.



So what if I love a sheep, or I love 10 woman, or I love an inanimate object, or I love a 10 year old......are you saying that it is my RIGHT to persue who I love and the state should let me marry?

(don't assume I'm linking anything either....if you give one minority group it's "right" you have to give them all.  What yard stick do you use to draw the line?)

I laugh at the assumption that this is a civil rights issue and that anyone who disagrees with it must be a homophobe/bigot/intolerent.

I bring this up in every single one of these threads and it seems the usually players don't like the "slippery slope" argument.  What if NAMBLA was just as organized and had the lobbiests to overturn the statutory laws in order for them to persue their "happienes"?   My points are valid because of the gay marriage "issue" many poligemist groups are now lobbying to overturn poligemy laws because it interupts their "happieness"

You can ASSUME what  you want to about me but I say all of this while at the same time supporting any kind of laws that recognize a "civil union" of any two consenting adults gay or strait.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 09, 2006, 01:01:18 PM
no gunslinger it's just not worth arugureing because it's logical flaws are obvious..... if you were objective at all

Animals can't sign marrige contracts

Children can't legaly marry in the U.S.

So your argurement is poligemy?
Sounds like a diffrent arguement too me......  Not sure what this has to do with the issue.  Mormon's are allowed to marry, like anyone else.... but only once  (unless they divorce)....I don't have problem with poligemy really, as long as it's truely a 3-way union... and not some guy haveing a wife in 2 cities, or a girl haveing two husbands.

Your trying to disallow a group, the rights eveyone else has..... just like this country did with Blacks....the U.S. needs a good outgroup, "Americans" seem lost without one.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Sandman on April 09, 2006, 01:01:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mora
Marriage should defintely be abolished when it comes to law and goverment. It would stop the crying from both sides.


Unfortunately, it would create a lot of problems as well. Think about serious medical problems and decision authority, ownership of assets when someone dies, etc.

Marriage makes it simpler. Your spouse can make medical decisions for you in cases where it's impossible to communicate your wishes. The spouse can also take care of your assets after you die.

Of course, we could just leave decisions like this to the state, but I don't think we want to go there.


As for taxes and other benefits, I don't think they're should be any. The government should not have got into the business of promoting marriage. Outside of that, there are some pretty good reasons to have a "legal" partner in your life regardless of the sex.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 09, 2006, 01:22:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
So what if I love a sheep, or I love 10 woman, or I love an inanimate object, or I love a 10 year old......are you saying that it is my RIGHT to persue who I love and the state should let me marry?

(don't assume I'm linking anything either....if you give one minority group it's "right" you have to give them all.  What yard stick do you use to draw the line?)

I laugh at the assumption that this is a civil rights issue and that anyone who disagrees with it must be a homophobe/bigot/intolerent.

I bring this up in every single one of these threads and it seems the usually players don't like the "slippery slope" argument.  What if NAMBLA was just as organized and had the lobbiests to overturn the statutory laws in order for them to persue their "happienes"?   My points are valid because of the gay marriage "issue" many poligemist groups are now lobbying to overturn poligemy laws because it interupts their "happieness"

You can ASSUME what  you want to about me but I say all of this while at the same time supporting any kind of laws that recognize a "civil union" of any two consenting adults gay or strait.


See BluKitty's response for my views.  The argument that you should be able to marry a sheep or a child is a ridiculous smokescreen and you know it.  Your point on polygamy does have some merit, however.

And as to my views on polygamy, BluKitty also pretty fairly summed them up.  Still, I feel that we should concentrate on giving two gays the right to marry before we worry about three :cool:

Also, I wouldn't say that anyone who disagrees with gay marriage must be a homophobe/bigot/intolerant.  I would say that this thread has shown that many are (and I'm not lumping you into this category, by any means).  It's perfectly fine if you just have a conflicting opinion for respectable reasons (I'll grant there are some).

Edit - One more thing - That this is a civil rights issue is certainly not an assumption.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on April 09, 2006, 02:30:39 PM
If someone is gay thats his problem/joy/whatever
if he wants to  mary who am i to forbid that, do i have to pay ??

realy some almost react like midle aged muslims.
im thaught so im not allowed to make my own opinion.

well that's the way to go on progress
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 03:57:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
no gunslinger it's just not worth arugureing because it's logical flaws are obvious..... if you were objective at all

Everything you said could also be said about Gay Marriage with complete objectivity

Quote

Animals can't sign marrige contracts


Two people of the same sex cannot sign a marriage contract

Quote

Children can't legaly marry in the U.S.

Two people of the same sex cannot legally marry.

Quote

So your argurement is poligemy?
Sounds like a diffrent arguement too me......  Not sure what this has to do with the issue.  Mormon's are allowed to marry, like anyone else.... but only once  (unless they divorce)....I don't have problem with poligemy really, as long as it's truely a 3-way union... and not some guy haveing a wife in 2 cities, or a girl haveing two husbands.

Your trying to disallow a group, the rights eveyone else has..... just like this country did with Blacks....the U.S. needs a good outgroup, "Americans" seem lost without one.


Gay's are allowed to marry just like everyone else....they just only get to marry the opposite sex.  

I'm not disallowing anyone their rights.....they have those rights.  Under current rules gays are allowed to marry anyone they wish as long as they are of the opposite gender.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Shuckins on April 09, 2006, 04:05:55 PM
I confess to being a lemming, Curval.  

But there is more than one set of political and social lemmings on these bbs...and to a certain extent we all belong to one.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, I won't stand in the way...but I will speak out against the attempts to portray it as "normal," and I will not " be pressured into "approving" of it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 04:08:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
See BluKitty's response for my views.  The argument that you should be able to marry a sheep or a child is a ridiculous smokescreen and you know it.  Your point on polygamy does have some merit, however.

And as to my views on polygamy, BluKitty also pretty fairly summed them up.  Still, I feel that we should concentrate on giving two gays the right to marry before we worry about three :cool:

Also, I wouldn't say that anyone who disagrees with gay marriage must be a homophobe/bigot/intolerant.  I would say that this thread has shown that many are (and I'm not lumping you into this category, by any means).  It's perfectly fine if you just have a conflicting opinion for respectable reasons (I'll grant there are some).

Edit - One more thing - That this is a civil rights issue is certainly not an assumption.


Thanks for your response.  Mine is based on an assumption that you think this is a civil rights issue.

I have yet to have anyone explain to me what civil rights are being broken.  What discrimination is happening here?

Two people of the opposite gender reguardless of race, creed, color,  religion, or sexual orientation can legally enter into a marriage contract.  No one is denying anyone their civil rights.  

Now if you redefine this and allow gays to marry why wouldn't you HAVE to let other groups (even as sick as they are) in based on the same argument?

No one is denying a RIGHT they are denying a WANT.  Gays want to be like strait people and marry somone.  The problem is that's not what a marriage is and gay people arent strait.  Therefore this isn't a civil rights issue.  

Again I base my opinion on the premis that I beleive some type of "civil union" would be entirly appropraite.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 09, 2006, 04:10:49 PM
No, that's not being objective.  Show me a dog that can pick up a pen and sign its name, then say "i do" and maybe you'd have some "objectivity."
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 09, 2006, 04:24:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thanks for your response.  Mine is based on an assumption that you think this is a civil rights issue.

I have yet to have anyone explain to me what civil rights are being broken.  What discrimination is happening here?

Two people of the opposite gender reguardless of race, creed, color,  religion, or sexual orientation can legally enter into a marriage contract.  No one is denying anyone their civil rights.  

Now if you redefine this and allow gays to marry why wouldn't you HAVE to let other groups (even as sick as they are) in based on the same argument?

No one is denying a RIGHT they are denying a WANT.  Gays want to be like strait people and marry somone.  The problem is that's not what a marriage is and gay people arent strait.  Therefore this isn't a civil rights issue.  

Again I base my opinion on the premis that I beleive some type of "civil union" would be entirly appropraite.


I'm looking at it from a Constitutional view, albeit a different interpretation of the Constitution than others have.

If all men are created equal, then a gay man is my equal.  I, as a heterosexual, have every right to marry the person I love.  In my case, this will be a woman.  If he is my equal, a gay man also has every right to marry the person he loves, in his case, that would be a man.

In my view, his right to equality, and his very defintion of being my equal, is trampled on by not being allowed to marry the person he loves.

Therefore, I see this as a civil rights issue under the thought that seperate but equal (civil union vs. marriage) is not equal.  

Perhaps a way to solve this issue is to simply throw out the term "marriage" for everyone and just have "civil unions" for everyone.  I don't really care which way we go, but I do insist the same term be applied to everyone.

Gonna be a scary, scary world when I'm 80 and my grandkids think I'm a conservative old fart, huh? :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 04:41:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
I'm looking at it from a Constitutional view, albeit a different interpretation of the Constitution than others have.

If all men are created equal, then a gay man is my equal.  I, as a heterosexual, have every right to marry the person I love.  In my case, this will be a woman.  If he is my equal, a gay man also has every right to marry the person he loves, in his case, that would be a man.

In my view, his right to equality, and his very defintion of being my equal, is trampled on by not being allowed to marry the person he loves.

Therefore, I see this as a civil rights issue under the thought that seperate but equal (civil union vs. marriage) is not equal.  

Perhaps a way to solve this issue is to simply throw out the term "marriage" for everyone and just have "civil unions" for everyone.  I don't really care which way we go, but I do insist the same term be applied to everyone.

Gonna be a scary, scary world when I'm 80 and my grandkids think I'm a conservative old fart, huh? :)


I never once saw the word "love" on a marriage liscense.  Not once.  BUT based on your standards all men being equal what's to stop a sicko from wanting to marry a kid.......The answer is the law.  But, if he/she LOVES the kid then arent we denying this as a right?  I know it's a stretch but all things being equal it would be.  So where does that leave us?  A person marrying a minor is illegal because it is immoral and unethical.  

So now we arent at rights anymore and we are back to morals.  It's not seperate if it is the same.  Gays can MARRY anyone of the opposite gender because that's what the law says a marriage is.  What gays want is to redefine the law to include same sex marriage.  


as far as the dog issue goes, sure maybe dogs can't speak human or sign their name with a pen.  I'd bet there's quite a few creatures in the ape family that know sign language and could make an X on a peice of paper.  I also know many fringe groups that say animals should have all the basic rights of humans.

Lets substitute the word GAY for Sicko and Sicko being an ape lover, pedifile, or somoen that wants to marry their sister/mother:
Quote

I'm looking at it from a Constitutional view, albeit a different interpretation of the Constitution than others have.

If all men are created equal, then a SICKO man is my equal.  I, as a heterosexual, have every right to marry the person I love.  In my case, this will be a woman.  If he is my equal, a SICKO man also has every right to marry the person (or ape)  he loves, in his case, that would be a man.(or ape)

In my view, his right to equality, and his very defintion of being my equal, is trampled on by not being allowed to marry the person he loves.



Logically and objectivly one could make the same arguments for other questionable groups.  The constitution doesn't garuntee love.  It does mention the PURSUIT of happiness but not happiness itself.  I don't see gays being denyed a right at all I see them being denyed a want that the law doesn't include by definition.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 09, 2006, 04:56:38 PM
Alright fair enough, but then again, a child in this country is not recognized by the law as being able to enter into a legal contract until they're [insert state's age here].  It is assumed (and yeah, I'm sure some kids are exceptions), that they cannot possibly understand the ramifications of the contract they're entering into.

An ape, though it could probably sign an X and use sign language, wouldn't, in my mind, be capable of truly understanding what it was doing, thus the contract would be invalid.  I understand what you're saying about the fringe groups though, and, who knows, maybe there is an ape out there who could - I'm doubting it.

Different states have different ages to enter a marriage contract, my cousin, for example, got pregnant and ran off with the loser to FL to get married at 15 :rolleyes: .  

I could see how one might say "well then, isn't this seperate/not equal (marriage ages)", but I'd argue that regardless of where you live in the country, if you're heterosexual you're going to be allowed to get married eventually - gotta leave state's some say of there own, anyway.

In the end though, although I hear what you are saying about opening the flood gates, you have to consider, as others have pointed out, that blacks and whites couldn't marry each other at one point either.  When they were suddenly allowed to, all the groups you mentioned didn't swarm the gates (successfully), and I don't see that happening now.

It's something to think about, sure, but I just don't see it as happening.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 05:04:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Alright fair enough, but then again, a child in this country is not recognized by the law as being able to enter into a legal contract until they're [insert state's age here].  It is assumed (and yeah, I'm sure some kids are exceptions), that they cannot possibly understand the ramifications of the contract they're entering into.

An ape, though it could probably sign an X and use sign language, wouldn't, in my mind, be capable of truly understanding what it was doing, thus the contract would be invalid.  I understand what you're saying about the fringe groups though, and, who knows, maybe there is an ape out there who could - I'm doubting it.

Different states have different ages to enter a marriage contract, my cousin, for example, got pregnant and ran off with the loser to FL to get married at 15 :rolleyes: .  

I could see how one might say "well then, isn't this seperate/not equal (marriage ages)", but I'd argue that regardless of where you live in the country, if you're heterosexual you're going to be allowed to get married eventually - gotta leave state's some say of there own, anyway.

In the end though, although I hear what you are saying about opening the flood gates, you have to consider, as others have pointed out, that blacks and whites couldn't marry each other at one point either.  When they were suddenly allowed to, all the groups you mentioned didn't swarm the gates (successfully), and I don't see that happening now.

It's something to think about, sure, but I just don't see it as happening.


Good response but I have to counter.

I don't disagree with mixed race marriages but I think the point is invalid.  Those are in fact people being denied their right to marry.  A marriage being a union between a man and a woman.  I don't see the gay issue as having the same injustice.  They want a redefinition of the institution all together.  

I think the point you made about your cousin is valid.  I think that's not right but I also think if we allow gays to redefine marriage that is eventually what you will have (or be allowed) accross the board.  To me it's not about giving them equal access to the institution of marriage, we can give that to them by creating an institution that includes a union of sorts between same sexes (gay or strait).  It's about the redefinition that I fear will open the flood gates.

Either way got to go, thaks for the banter but my ribs are burning on the grill right now (the smoker broke)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 09, 2006, 05:16:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I don't disagree with mixed race marriages but I think the point is invalid.  Those are in fact people being denied their right to marry.  A marriage being a union between a man and a woman.  


And a few years ago most people would said: A marriage being a union between a man and a woman of the same race.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 06:38:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
And a few years ago most people would said: A marriage being a union between a man and a woman of the same race.


But none the less a marriage has allways been between a man and a woman.  

so I'll bite we change now for social action.....what will be the next social action?   Traditional roles arent allways a bad thing.....especially when they've worked for thousands of years.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 09, 2006, 06:44:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger

Traditional roles arent allways a bad thing.....especially when they've worked for thousands of years.


You try telling that to some woman from my neck of the woods.  You think forgetting her birthday was something? :eek:

Trust me, not fun, not fun at all lol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 09, 2006, 08:37:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
You try telling that to some woman from my neck of the woods.  You think forgetting her birthday was something? :eek:

Trust me, not fun, not fun at all lol


Go tell her to burn her bra on her own time and cook you some pie!

;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: storch on April 09, 2006, 10:39:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
You try telling that to some woman from my neck of the woods.  You think forgetting her birthday was something? :eek:

Trust me, not fun, not fun at all lol
that's because you have failed in your training.  I have mine trained not expect anything on any supposedly significant date.  she is aware that christmas, valentine's day, birthdays, mother's day etc.  were created by New York haberdashers and as such should be eschewed.  when ever I run across a good deal, be it diamonds gold or automobiles she receives a gift.  the other thing is to always step up to your responsibilities to defend and provide for her and the offspring, at the end of the day that's our raison de etre and our only justification for being here.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 10, 2006, 04:04:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger opposite gender


Define it for me .... and don't leave anyone out.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 10, 2006, 08:54:22 AM
blu and vudak...  equal does not mean that everyone get't to be quarterback or.... even pays the same amount of taxes.

the law is that any two people can get married so long as.... as a bunch of requirements are met.... they can't allready be married... they both have to be human... they can't be immediate relatives... they can't be below a certain age... and....

They have to be of the oppossite sex.   these are all rules that everyone has to live by if they want to participate in marriage...  You choose one of the rules and say it is unfair...

There are many who think one or the other rules are not fair to them.

Tough....those are the rules.   If society as a whole want's some of the rules changed then it will.... being incestuous and not being able to be married does not mean that your civil rights are being violated any more than being gay and not being allowed to marry does.

and blu.... other than adding hysteria... what does your transexual example have to do with anything?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 10, 2006, 09:20:41 AM
Lazs, incest directly creates things like retardation as a result of things like recessive genes coming to the front, XXY pondings, etc.  It's genuinely harmful to the child, and thus directly negatively affects others.

Is there an equivalent to homosexual marriages with which I'm unfamiliar?

BTW, you use the example of "those are the rules, tough".  I'll note that until partway into the 20th century, women couldn't vote.  Those were the rules too.  Using the existance of a rule as rationale for the correctness of the rule is a circular argument.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 10:00:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy


BTW, you use the example of "those are the rules, tough".  I'll note that until partway into the 20th century, women couldn't vote.  


Yea, and just look at the mistake we made with that. :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 10, 2006, 10:42:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
...I'll note that until partway into the 20th century, women couldn't vote.  Those were the rules too...


Ahem...this is not what will change Lazs's mind, trust me! ;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 10, 2006, 10:57:19 AM
You know what I find the most interesting about this....

Isnt USA based on the fact that State and Church should be kept separate?

Gay marriage isnt about "The christian church allowing gay coules to get married" its about "Gay couples having equal rights in sociaty as any other human  beeing". Its about inheritance laws, financial laws ect.

Should gay couples have equal rights in society as any other couples? Definatly.

Should gay couples have the right to be wed in any church? Not necessary thats up to each church to decide.

But then again church and state beeing kept separate is just another brilliant example of american double standars.

Tex.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Ripper29 on April 10, 2006, 11:08:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
blu and vudak...  equal does not mean that everyone get't to be quarterback or.... even pays the same amount of taxes.

the law is that any two people can get married so long as.... as a bunch of requirements are met.... they can't allready be married... they both have to be human... they can't be immediate relatives... they can't be below a certain age... and....

They have to be of the oppossite sex.   these are all rules that everyone has to live by if they want to participate in marriage...  You choose one of the rules and say it is unfair...

There are many who think one or the other rules are not fair to them.

Tough....those are the rules.   If society as a whole want's some of the rules changed then it will.... being incestuous and not being able to be married does not mean that your civil rights are being violated any more than being gay and not being allowed to marry does.

and blu.... other than adding hysteria... what does your transexual example have to do with anything?

lazs


Rules are rules....like helmet laws :rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 10, 2006, 02:49:44 PM
chair... incest in marriage would be legal then if one of the parties were sterile?

Nope... I am no fan of rules but there you have it.   Rules that do not violate human rights are made by the population and it's culture all the time.

As for women not being able to vote?  we would be in a hell of a lot better shape if they had never been able to.

helmet laws?   Not my call...  i disobey them and seatbelt laws every chance I get.  

gay marriage?  they don't want to simply call themselves married.... it is other benifiets that they want... let's be honest here.

marriage is for couples of the oppossite sex... if gays want to couple up that is fine but get their own term for it and their own laws about it so far as I am concerned.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 10, 2006, 04:17:03 PM
lazs

Why shouldnt a gay person have the same rights in society as you do?

Its exactly the same thing as saying blacks, asians, you name the race shouldnt have same rights in society...

Its exactly the same thing as saying women shouldnt have the same rights in society as men...

Its exactly the same thing as saying muslims, jews, budhists, hindus shouldnt have the same rights in society as christians....

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 04:51:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
lazs

Why shouldnt a gay person have the same rights in society as you do?
 


They have the same rights in society as everyone else. In this case, they have the same right to marry anyone of the opposite gender, just like everyone else.

Quote
Its exactly the same thing as saying blacks, asians, you name the race shouldnt have same rights in society...


Well at least someone came outright and said it instead of circling the house three or four times.
It has nothing to do with a race. Being gay is not a race of people. They have the same rights as everyone else.

 
Quote
Its exactly the same thing as saying muslims, jews, budhists, hindus shouldnt have the same rights in society as christians....


Being gay is not a religion.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 10, 2006, 05:29:48 PM
Is it just me who is seeing the double standars here?

some people here say that sexuality is choise, well in that case its exactly the same as religion... religion is a choise.. yet its ok to strip gay people of their social rights while its not ok to do so for people based on religion...

some people here say that sexuality isnt by choise but by nature, well in that case its exactly the same thing as gender and/or race... gender/race is by nature.. yet its ok to strip gay people of their social rights while its not ok to do so for people based on their gender and/or race...

Got to love double standars...

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 10, 2006, 06:09:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
As for women not being able to vote?  we would be in a hell of a lot better shape if they had never been able to.


What a crock.  Just some "tough-guy" biker mentality.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Billy Joe Bob on April 10, 2006, 06:19:54 PM
you are ABSOULTELY right tex!!

i think that if someone wants to marry someone they really love be it gay or not they shouldn't be denied to get married. what difference would it make to straight people if they banned gay marraige?

as was said before, being gay is a choice and if they also CHOOSE to be married then so be it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Gunslinger on April 10, 2006, 06:45:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob
you are ABSOULTELY right tex!!

i think that if someone wants to marry someone they really love be it gay or not they shouldn't be denied to get married. what difference would it make to straight people if they banned gay marraige?

as was said before, being gay is a choice and if they also CHOOSE to be married then so be it.


So if you had a minor child who was loved by a creepy adult they should be allowed to get married and the adult now takes your child out of your home?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 10, 2006, 06:57:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
So if you had a minor child who was loved by a creepy adult they should be allowed to get married and the adult now takes your child out of your home?


Tell you what...start a thread about child molestation and the rights of creepy adults to abuse children.

That way we can chat about the subject matter of THIS thread without the red herrings you keep throwing in which are totally unrelated to the topic at hand.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 07:44:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Is it just me who is seeing the double standars here?
Got to love double standars...

Tex


You are one of a few here who is not seeing that it is being asked for a double standard to be put into place.
As it stands now, gays have the exact same rights as the rest us. They are allowed to marry anyone of their choice just as long as it is of the opposite sex.
Putting laws into effect just for gays would be the double standard , not the other way around. Laws being put into place just for gays at the rest of society`s expense is ridiculous.
There are laws allready in effect that will accomplish the goals that they are asking for. They can hire a lawyer and set up a partnership at THEIR expense.
Making a total mockery out of marriage makes no sense whatsoever.
Even the thought of asking for a law to be put into place legalizing perversion is absolute insanity. It also sets a very, very bad precedence . I personaly don`t like the idea of our country being spat upon by a bunch of mutant freak perverts.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 10, 2006, 07:49:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Tell you what...start a thread about child molestation and the rights of creepy adults to abuse children.

That way we can chat about the subject matter of THIS thread without the red herrings you keep throwing in which are totally unrelated to the topic at hand.


His point IS valid.

The homosexual community wants to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex marriages. If we change the definition of marriage to please a minority of the people, then why shouldnt it be changed to include other minorities as well?

Several times I have seen in this thread, folks saying that anyone should be allowed to marry the person they love. By that reasoning if a man loves a 14 yr old girl then by golly he has the right to marry her regardless of what other folks think about it. If a woman loves her dog then by golly she has the right to marry it.

In some cultures marriages are still arranged by relatives and love has nothing to do with those marriages.

I am against homosexual marriages for religious reasons. I believe that homosexual activity, just like sex with minors or animals is wrong.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 10, 2006, 07:57:19 PM
I just can't take Jackal1 seriously, would the rest of you anti-gay marriage folks say that he speaks for you?

A few decades ago, interracial marriage was illegal.  It was 'the law' (lazs) and it was a small minority that wanted to do it(Elfie).  

Before the law was changed, they had the same equal rights that the gays do now.  They were free to marry within their race, the same as gays are free to marry people of the opposite sex.

How again, exactly, was that different from what we're talking about now?  Is 'seperate but equal' still the goal?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 08:12:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I just can't take Jackal1 seriously, would the rest of you anti-gay marriage folks say that he speaks for you?


I speak for myself, noone else. I don`t need backup to support my self esteem as you seem to do. I am not, nor do I ever wish to steep so low as to sell out my values to make the PC crowd happy.
If anyone would have any trouble taking anyone else serious it would be me finding it hard to believe that a male in the U.S. would be lemming enough to promote and support a law being put into place to legalize perversion in our country just so they could hang with the PC crowd and attempt to be cool and hip.  And at the public`s expense at that. Like I said there are laws in place now that accomplish what they are wishing to accomplish.  Totaly friggen amazing to me how cheap some folks sell out their self pride to fit into a group that`s nothing but Pick Up The Soap Sams to begin with.
It`s sickenining and disgusting.

 
Quote
A few decades ago, interracial marriage was illegal. It was 'the law' (lazs) and it was a small minority that wanted to do it(Elfie). Before the law was changed, they had the same equal rights that the gays do now.  They were free to marry within their race, the same as gays are free to marry people of the opposite sex. How again, exactly, was that different from what we're talking about now?  Is 'seperate but equal' still the goal?


Being gay is not a race of people. A group of warped perverts, but not a race of people. How hard is that to understand? Race has nothing to do with the issue.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 10, 2006, 08:20:20 PM
I'm just noting that you're using the exact same arguments that opponents of interracial marriage made.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 08:25:10 PM
And I am just noting that race has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Gay is not a race of people. It`s totaly irrelevant.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 10, 2006, 08:29:55 PM
Jackal - you know what?  Never mind.  I'm not going to let my first censored post be a jab at you.

I will say if I'm a lemming, so are you.  You weren't born into this world detesting gays.  You picked it up from someone along the way and have followed right along to present.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 08:37:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Jackal - you know what?  Never mind.  I'm not going to let my first censored post be a jab at you.


Aww c`mon. Give it a shot. :rofl

Quote
I will say if I'm a lemming, so are you.  You weren't born into this world detesting gays.  You picked it up from someone along the way and have followed right along to present. [/B]
[/QUOTE]

No, I didn`t pick it up from anyone but myself and self observation and self esteem enough to come out and say what I think. Does noone have the capability of thinking for themself anymore or do you beleive everyone has to follow the pack no matter right or wrong?In this case, I say it`s sickening, disgusting, but most of all totaly ridiculous to ask for a law to be put in place to promote and legalize obvious perversion and goes against everything one`s common sense should point out for them. To do it in our country I take as an outright insult to those who made this country what it is.
If someone wishs to put a flower behind their ear and walk hand in hand with the back seat boogie boyz shouting and wailing about their woes and injustice being done to them , that`s their problem, but certainly not mine.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 10, 2006, 08:48:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

No, I didn`t pick it up from anyone but myself and self observation and self esteem enough to come out and say what I think. Does noone have the capability of thinking for themself anymore or do you beleive everyone has to follow the pack no matter right or wrong?In this case, I say it`s sickening, disgusting, but most of all totaly ridiculous to ask for a law to be put in place to promote and legalize obvious perversion and goes against everything one`s common sense should point out for them. To do it in our country I take as an outright insult to those who made this country what it is.
If someone wishs to put a flower behind their ear and walk hand in hand with the back seat boogie boyz shouting and wailing about their woes and injustice being done to them , that`s their problem, but certainly not mine.


Well in that case please see Stage 2 - Awareness - in one of my earlier posts :D :p
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 10, 2006, 08:50:30 PM
I`d come more thinking that you might need to study that. ;)

Tell ya what , you are probably correct in assuming that it is near reaching the censored stage.
The last thread of this sort I got banned temporarily for asking someone if they were gay or had someone in their immediate family that was gay. It was an attempt to try to understand why someone would get so forcilbly behind an issue that is so obviously riciculous to me . It wasn`t an attempt to "jab" at someone, but an attempt to understand why someone would get behind such a ludicrous issue. It was taken as a personal asualt and an insult. I didn`t understand that either from someone who was publicly supporting gays. Why should asking if they were gay or had someone close to them that was gay be an insult for someone who was openly supporting the gay community I`ll never understand.
So..........I think by now my point and my stnace on the issue is quite clear enough. If it is not, then see the nearest eye doctor as soon as possible.
Have fun. I`m out before speaking what I beleive in is considered an insult. Not because I have a probelm insulting those who I think deserve it, but because I like to post here. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 10, 2006, 08:56:31 PM
Suppose that two siblings live together (non-sexually/incestually) and decide that they want to raise children together.  Does the government have any right to deny them any rights or privileges that it grants a married couple?  If so, why?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 10, 2006, 09:15:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I`d come more thinking that you might need to study that. ;)



Aw I see what'cher sayin...  Some nights you could be the Jackal, I'll be the Carrion, some nights you can be the Carrion, I'll be the Jackal...  That'd be HOT  :aok

(And a stupid movie reference :D )

Joking aside though, I'm not gay, though I really don't care if you think I am, and I wouldn't consider that an insult/censor-worthy.  I do have a few gay friends though and they're good guys (and one girl), and good people.  I feel bad for them and sympathize with their plight.  Also they are a minority.  If people like me don't step up for them then their votes are always going to be in the minority.  Even with people like me, they still are, but perhaps not forever.

So that's why I stand up for them.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 10, 2006, 09:22:22 PM
Chairboy, I dunno why inter-racial marriages were illegal. Personally I see nothing wrong with them (even though my dad just about has a coronary every time he see's a white man with a black woman or a black man with a white woman, but he's just wierd:D ).

I view marriage as a union between a man and a woman, race is a non-factor for me. Inter-racial marriages were still between a Man and a Woman. Homosexual marriages are between 2 men or 2 women.

Websters dictionary gives a definition of marriage as....see marry heh, the definition of marry (according to websters) is: to unite, take, or give in wedlock; to enter into matrimony. marriage the legal union of husband and wife; the ceremony, civil or religious, by which two people of the opposite sex become husband and wife.

Leviticus 18:22, You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God. (Modern King James Version) I have 8 different translations of the Bible on my hard drive atm, most use the term abomination,  one uses perversion, and another uses the term confusion.

Chairboy, its the man/man or woman/woman union that makes all the difference to me. Those two unions are not included in the definition of marriage according to America's most famous dictionary.

More later.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Billy Joe Bob on April 10, 2006, 09:44:49 PM
i dont think religion really has anything to do with that, in my point of view.

the last time religion dictated what to do, people were burned at the stake.

and the dictionary may be famous but times change....

just some guys opinion *shrugs*
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Callisto on April 10, 2006, 10:21:41 PM
Soo.. whos gay here?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Sandman on April 11, 2006, 12:14:45 AM
I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 11, 2006, 12:58:18 AM
i guess nobody cares about "the hermaphrodite paradox"
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 11, 2006, 02:14:53 AM
Jackal and laz

Say that you guys some day have a daughter... say that she is gay... hand on your heart can you honestly say that you would force her to marry a man? Would you force her to a life where she has to put aside who she really is for her entire adult life?

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 02:49:52 AM
1. Catholic religion forbids re-marriage to divorced men and women.
2. But divorced people can contract a civil (term ?) marriage....

Soooooo......

1'. Catholic religion forbids same sex marriage.
2'. do I need to develop any further for the really slow ones?


Like someone very rightly said in response to Lazs, the only thing that dilutes opposite sex marriage is divorce, not civil same-sex marriage.

Keep religion out of the equation and it becomes really simple....like most things in life.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 11, 2006, 02:57:37 AM
As I said in my first post in this thread...

In this case the government of the US is making a law based on religion... its mixing state and church... I thought that was against one of the founding principals of the USA...

It should be up to any church to decide if they want to wed a couple... thats not the buisness of the state...

though the state should decide if gay couples should have equal rights to civil marrige.. meaning should gay couples have the same rights as straight couples...

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 08:40:23 AM
tex... I would not and could not force my daughter to do anything.   You are asking me if I think that marriage should be a contract between two hetrerosexuals or.... a man and a woman..

I say yes.    I say that it violates no human rights and that everyone is allowed to marry a person of the opposiste sex who is of age and not an imidiate relative.

you seem to have problems with only one of the requirements (for now).

Tough...  you can't allways have things equal...  If gays want to marry then they need to get their own version of it and fight for rights associated with that .

To marginalize marriage between heterosexuals is not the solution.

and curval... your response is typical of the modern girly man trust fund limmosine liberal.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 08:48:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Jackal and laz

Say that you guys some day have a daughter


Raised four daughters allready. Not planning on starting a new family.



Quote
say that she is gay


Never had to worry about that. My daughters pretty well thought for themselves  and had enough common sense to stay away from perverts  and wackos.

Quote
hand on your heart can you honestly say that you would force her to marry a man?


See above. :) Why would you have to force a female to marry a man? Ridiculous. If she was going to get "married", that`s what she would be doing automaticaly. Marriage is between a man and a woman.

Quote
Would you force her to a life where she has to put aside who she really is for her entire adult life?


No. I would never force anyone to choose gay over reality. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 08:57:13 AM
so long as any sexual deviation can be legeslated against the gays don't have a leg to stand on so far as "their civil rights"

You have no civil right to be a sexual deviate.   You have a right to do anything with another consenting adult tho so long as no one is injured.  That does not mean that the rest of us have to recognize it as being normal behavior.

There is no normal heterosexual who is not disgusted by watching the acts of homosexuals of the same sex as they themselves are...

sure... we can watch (as men) lesbians...  no problem and some women can watch men hommos.

Not the same thing.   We are a emathetic race we humans.   as such... we are disgusted thinking ourselves into those situations.

Why would we want to make it equal to a married couple?   Why would a gay couple have any more "human right" to marry than say a sterile brother and sister?

Why be so mean to the brother and sister?  are they not human just like everyone else with the same rights?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 08:57:42 AM
Lazs, how many times have you divorced? Don't you think that you've enough contributed to marginalize marriage?

BTW, Calling Curv a girly man is so kindergarten. All of you people afraid of gays while pretending to be machosexuals don't seem to have much confidence in your own sexuality.

Instead of forbidding gays to marry, it would be better for mankind to prevent idiots to reproduce...
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 09:04:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
...That does not mean that the rest of us have to recognize it as being normal behavior....


I though that nowadays, marriage was a bond between two persons willing to live their life together, not some kind of 'hey-look-who-I-am-with' announcement.
During the wedding, the couple says yes to each other but the audience is not asked to vote its (dis)agreement AFAIK.

You know Lazs, if civil gay marriage become a reality, you won't be forced to go to gay weddings, wipe a tear, get drunk and dance on country music all night long... So where's YOUR problem?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 09:05:04 AM
fair enough... divorce does marginalize marriage but.... how do you know who will be divorced in advance?

and... my comment to curval was in response to his one to me.  Did you read that one?

Again... I have no problem with gays doing whatever they want so long as I don't have to see it and they are consenting adults and no one gets injured too bad.

Gays have the same rights to marriage or any other contract as any other person in the U.S.  

Why should they get special rights?   why should brothers and sisters not be allowed to marry?   why are you not up in arms about that?

is it because you don't care about them because they are minorities or because you are unsure of your own incestuous feelings?

see.... it is ridiculous.   I have no animosity toward gays.... I have a brother and a female cousin who are both gay.    I don't want to go to their weddings....  I think it would be a travesty and an insult to marriage.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 09:07:59 AM
okay, Curv is as kindergarten as you. Both of you will stand in opposite corners during next recess.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 09:13:39 AM
and deselys... how many gay relatives or close friends do you have?   How much do you really interact with them?   I ask because between my brother and cousin and my girfriends gay brother and their dozens of friends....

I have been around a lot of em... they are not like you and I.   It is a noticeable difference... it cuts both ways too.. they all recognize that I am "different" too..

We accept that about each other.   We do not intrude on each others world save for decency and treating each other with respect.

Trying to invade heterosexual marriage is not respect.  Any more than a group of meterosexuals all invading the gay bars every night... they don't want heteros there.   It is legal but.... disrespectful.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 11, 2006, 09:21:59 AM
lazs

Correct me if Im wrong here but basicly you dont like gay people because you are repulsed by seeing your self in their position. I can buy that argument.

I cant see my self in a gay sexual situation either. But on the other hand I cant see my self in any intimite situation with a fat redneck midwest 220lbs chick either.

I think we can both agree that their private life should stay private, just like you and your gf/wife/whatever´s.

But really what is the problem with them getting legaly married. I mean the fact that they are married doesnt change your view of that specific gay couple. From your perspective its still just another gay couple.

All it affects is their rights. It doesnt compromise your life in anyway what so ever. Their marrige has ZERO effect on your life.

Tex.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 09:26:13 AM
If you don't see the difference between a gay couple and an incestuous couple, I'll suggest you to buy 'biology for dummies'.

Besides, a gay men will always loves men. He can fall in love with Arthur, if Arthur goes away or die, the gay man will look for another man. OTOH a boy who has developed a crush with his sister, if he isn't allowed to marry her, has chances to meet another woman later and to fall in love with her.

Now you'll tell me: 'but gays can't reproduce, so it goes against the expansion of the species and the mixing of the genes!!'. I'll grant you that, of course, but as they are gays ANYWAY, being married or not WILL NOT change an iota to the situation.

Why am I in favor of gay marriages: if one dies in a gay couple, the other HAS MUCH LESS rights regarding inheritance, insurance,... I've just witnessed this first hand a couple of months ago when a young lesbian died. While she and her mate were financially independents and living together since YEARS, it only took a couple of weeks for the parents (who had excellent relationships beforehand) to violently argue about who would get the car, the TV, the home theater, the Golly-geen frigging cellphone!! Had they been married, the surviving one would have avoided this extra-grief.

So you don't want to go to your brother's gay wedding? Tell it to him but don't prevent him to be happy.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 09:28:32 AM
Not but one problem with that Tex. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Plain and simple.
Why can`t they use the laws that are in effect as it stands, hire a lawyer and form a legal partnership?
Thier rights , as it stands, are the same as everyone else.
Why would you find it feasible to have to introduce "special" laws for this group?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 11, 2006, 09:34:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I have been around a lot of em... they are not like you and I.   It is a noticeable difference... it cuts both ways too.. they all recognize that I am "different" too..


In the above statement insert "black", "asian", "muslim" instead of them and read it...

then read the following statement...

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
We accept that about each other.   We do not intrude on each others world save for decency and treating each other with respect.


and finally the last statement and replace hetrosexual and metrosexual with "white" and gay with "black", "asian", "muslim"

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Trying to invade heterosexual marriage is not respect.  Any more than a group of meterosexuals all invading the gay bars every night... they don't want heteros there.   It is legal but.... disrespectful.


This is what I mean... its the same kind of racistical segregation arguments as you had in the US up till the 60s with the black population and reading things like that in the year 2006 gives me the creaps...

Humanity consists of individuals. Each individual is different no one is identical. But everyone regardless of gender, religion or sexuality should have equal rights in society, everyone should be treated with the same respect.

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 09:40:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy

This is what I mean... its the same kind of racistical segregation arguments as you had in the US up till the 60s with the black population and reading things like that in the year 2006 gives me the creaps


Gay is not a race. Irrelevant. The race card won`t work here , no matter how many times you shuffle the deck.

Quote
Humanity consists of individuals. Each individual is different no one is identical. But everyone regardless of gender, religion or sexuality should have equal rights in society


Gays have the exact same legal rights as everyone else.

Quote
everyone should be treated with the same respect.


Respect is earned or not by everyone. No exceptions. It is also one of the few things that cannot be forced or changed by introducing some lame law. You either have it, earn it, deserve it or not.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 09:41:15 AM
Jackal1, has a civil wedding the same value to you than a church weeding?

If you value most the church (religious) wedding, why do you accept that divorced people are allowed to contract another marriage? Why don't you demand for them to hire a lawyer and form a legal partnership.

Do you feel less married to your wife because 10 houses down your road, two men are 'married' instead of having contracted a civilian partnership?

Why would gay have to follow a different, and probably more expensive and complicated procedure (hint=lawyer) to formalize their union? You won't have to go and be merry at the party, you won't have to call them differently, you won't be tempted to become a gay....so why?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 11, 2006, 10:02:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
okay, Curv is as kindergarten as you. Both of you will stand in opposite corners during next recess.


lol

Lazs thinks that the world would be better off if women were never allowed to vote.  It is quite an apt comment in this thread because it fits him right in with the backward rethoric out of Jackal et al.

His response to my suggestion that this is just tough guy biker mentality is also typical...he calls me a girly liberal, once again showing his "tough guy" biker mentality.

Lazs likes to throw jabs about trust funds etc. but I think he is just upset that he wasted his early life on drugs, drug dealing and probably being a school bully.  All the guys he labels "girly men" drive by the water treatment plant in their nice cars on their way back to their nice homes,  wrinkle up their noses, roll up their windows and thank their lucky stars they actually DID something with their lives instead of being forced to clean poopy water at such a stink hole of a place.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 10:04:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Jackal1, has a civil wedding the same value to you than a church weeding?


Church "weeding" is the best idea  I`ve seen you come up with yet. :)

Quote
If you value most the church (religious) wedding, why do you accept that divorced people are allowed to contract another marriage?


Contract? See you are looking at marriage as if it was some form of document or  legaly binding text. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Goes way farther than the legal implications we have put on it. If a man and a woman get a divorce, with one stating to the other the wishs and reasons for the divorce, why shouldn`t they be allowed to marry someone else? Once again irrelevant due to marriage being between a man and a woman.

Quote
Do you feel less married to your wife because 10 houses down your road, two men are 'married' instead of having contracted a civilian partnership?


10 houses down there could not be two men "married" unless it was a two family household. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
IF two men contracted a civilian partnership around here ,and it was anything but a business partnership, their biggest concern would be locating a good realtor to relocate. :)

Quote
Why would gay have to follow a different, and probably more expensive and complicated procedure (hint=lawyer) to formalize their union?


Because it would be their decison to do so, not anyone elses. At that point they have a choice either to hire the lawyer, form the partenrship or not. Because they are asking for sperate laws/legalization from the rest of society you beleive we should foot the bill? Why wouldn`t they be held responsible for their own actions? The rest of us are. Ridiculous.

Quote
You won't have to go and be merry at the party, you won't have to call them differently, you won't be tempted to become a gay....so why? [/B][/Q


So why......what?  
I find it totaly ludicrous that anyone would find it appropiate to support and ask for laws to be put into place especialy for perverts. If they decide to live that way, they should go do it and deal with the circumstances of their choice, just as the rest of society deals with the responsibilty that we all have for our decisons.
You want to push through some new "special" laws for child molestors? Molesting children is what makes them happy. Should we be able to stand in their way of "happiness" and fulfillment? Just how far would you be willing to go with this charade?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: TexMurphy on April 11, 2006, 10:04:32 AM
Jackal1

No gay couples dont have the same rights... they dont have the right to marry the person they love and want to spend the rest of their life with...

you do they dont...

Sexuality isnt a race but obviously it works just as well as a segregating instrument as race...

Tex
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 10:14:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Jackal1

No gay couples dont have the same rights... they dont have the right to marry the person they love and want to spend the rest of their life with...

you do they dont.
 


They have the right to marry someone as long as it is of the opposite sex, just like everyone else. Same rights as everyone else.
Marriage doesn`t enter the picture for gays. Marriage is between a man and a woman. They can form a legal partnership is they wish. There are no laws against it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 11, 2006, 11:18:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

Contract? See you are looking at marriage as if it was some form of document or  legaly binding text.


Now you're beginning to see the light: marriage is a contract giving you certain rights (and obligations). The rest is up to you and the person you're marrying: love, care, etc...

Quote
If a man and a woman get a divorce, with one stating to the other the wishs and reasons for the divorce, why shouldn`t they be allowed to marry someone else?


Because the church doesn't marry already divorced people either. And you seem to confuse the religious and civilian definitionS of marriage.

Quote
10 houses down there could not be two men "married" unless it was a two family household. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
IF two men contracted a civilian partnership around here ,and it was anything but a business partnership, their biggest concern would be locating a good realtor to relocate. :)


You've already proven that you're pretty obtuse, you can drop it now. BTW, nice typical german 1933-1945 / fundamentalist mentality.

Quote
Because it would be their decison to do so, not anyone elses. At that point they have a choice either to hire the lawyer, form the partenrship or not. Because they are asking for sperate laws/legalization from the rest of society you beleive we should foot the bill? Why wouldn`t they be held responsible for their own actions? The rest of us are. Ridiculous.


Foot the bill? You have to pay for other married couples?? OMFG, Texas is a worse commie hell than Europe!
Do you imply that by marrying, you're less responsible for your own actions?

(See, I can play the dense too....)

Quote
So why......what?  
I find it totaly ludicrous that anyone would find it appropiate to support and ask for laws to be put into place especialy for perverts. If they decide to live that way, they should go do it and deal with the circumstances of their choice, just as the rest of society deals with the responsibilty that we all have for our decisons.
You want to push through some new "special" laws for child molestors? Molesting children is what makes them happy. Should we be able to stand in their way of "happiness" and fulfillment? Just how far would you be willing to go with this charade?


Perverts? Yes...to your eyes mostly as homosexuality isn't forbidden by law as child molestation is. Btw, gay marriage is between two consenting adults. The molested child is not consenting (even if he says that he is, his young age voids this affirmation) and is a victim. You should have realized that by now. Or do we have to show concern to how you've raised your 4 daughters?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 11, 2006, 12:18:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I am not, nor do I ever wish to steep so low as to sell out my values to make the PC crowd happy.
 


"my values"?   really?..... they are your's?..... what language do you speak?  Did you make up your own language too?  Are you religious?  did you create that religion?   ya, your values :rofl


                                                           ===============

Funny how noone will take on my task  

Define the sexes, Define "Male", Define "Female" ...... and don't leave ANYONE out.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Casca on April 11, 2006, 01:22:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
Define the sexes, Define "Male", Define "Female" ...... and don't leave ANYONE out.


Okeedokee give me a day or so. The lab is calling me in the morning.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 02:07:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Now you're beginning to see the light: marriage is a contract giving you certain rights (and obligations). The rest is up to you and the person you're marrying: love, care, etc...
 


You wouldn`t know a light if ya was holding a Brinkman. :)
Marriage goes way beyond a legal contract.

Quote
You've already proven that you're pretty obtuse


If you consider me obtuse , I will take that as a step in the right direction for I certainly wouldn`t wish to think, (or the lack thereof), the way you do. I prefer to think for myself and not be a slave to others opinions just to be PC. PC sucks. It`s a sell out.

Quote
Foot the bill? You have to pay for other married couples??


No Einstein and that wasn`t what "footing the bill" refered to. We don`t have to foot the bill to have "special laws" put into force for married couples. We also don`t have to pay , as a society, for the aftermath. that is the responsibility already in place for married couples. Once again, marriage is between a man and a woman. Nothing more.

Quote
Texas is a worse commie hell than Europe!


Enlighten me on your vast knowledge of Texas. :)

Quote
Do you imply that by marrying, you're less responsible for your own actions?


Married people are responsible for their own and joint actions. Marriage is between a man and a woman. You`ll get it eventualy.

Quote
Perverts? Yes...to your eyes mostly as homosexuality isn't forbidden by law as child molestation is.


Yes perverts. You don`t beleive it is perverted? Not but one reason I can see why a male would believe otherwise. I`ll leave that problem up to you if that is the case. At least then such a stance would be understandable.
My eyes and most everyone I personaly know, so there are a lot of eyes that see it the same as me.
So , are you willing to legalize child molestation also? How about murder? How far are you willing to go with the charade?




Quote
The molested child is not consenting (even if he says that he is, his young age voids this affirmation) and is a victim.


So you wish  to legalize that also?

Quote
Or do we have to show concern to how you've raised your 4 daughters?

Define "we".
I wouldn`t suggest it, but if you do we can discuss it face to face. :)

Quote
Because the church doesn't marry already divorced people either. And you seem to confuse the religious and civilian definitionS of marriage.


I don`t know what church you are refering to, but any church that I would consider being married in allows marriage of divorced people. Me thinks you assume too much. Reminds me of someone. :)Where do you get your ideas? Off of ebay? :rofl
There is not but one definition of marriage. If anyone is confused on the subject, it would be you.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 02:14:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
"my values"?   really?                                                            


Yes, my values. Mine. A concept that is obvious you have trouble grasping.

Quote
what language do you speak?


Fluent Texican hoss. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 02:43:31 PM
wow curval... so now you think that certified water or wastewater treatment plant operator is a lowly position?  beneath the silver spoon trust fund set set?  I am supossed to take advice from you on prejudice?

Ok tex... nice try on trying to equate not wanting homosexuals to have the same kind of marriage contract as heterosexuals as being..... racial?  did you really do that?  

Nope... marriage is a sexual contract... It is defined as between a man and a woman and certain perverse sexual aberations are not included... incest, pedophilia and bestiality to name a few...  

Homosexuals are not a race and are not excluded.. they can marry under the same rules as anyone else.... man and woman... no incest etc.  They are not excluded because of race or creed or religion... they have excluded themselves... they are more than free to marry... so long as it is to someone of the opposite sex.

And deselys.... I don't think you are thinking it through about incest... what is wrong with sterile incestuous couples getting married?  why is it worse to you than homosexuals?  

and tex... it does cost me.   one way or the other we are all subsidizing marriage through taxes etc. and making an investment in a way of life.  You are asking me to subsidize a whole new group with my money and....  to in effect... reward the behavior.

Like I said... I have no problem with gays coming up with their own form of marriage... or the guy and his dog or the brother and sister... let em come up with their own rules for it too.

So tell me guys.... why do YOU think that gays would like to be married.... and how is that not gonna affect me?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 03:51:14 PM
Sorry this took so long to get to the *more later* Chairboy. I needed to speak with a friend that is far more knowledgeable than I. :)

I understand that you dont believe the same things I do Chairboy. This post is an attempt to show you where I am coming from. All Biblical references are taken from the MKJV (Modern King James Version).

Marriage is an institution, designed and ordained by God from the beginning of time, between one man and one woman.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

Marriage was designed for the increase of man. (reproduction)

Genesis 1:27,28 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.  And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Marriage was designed to produce Godly children. ie..children that know, love and follow Him.

Mal 2:15  And did He not make you one? Yet the vestige of the Spirit is in him. And what of the one? He was seeking a godly seed. Then guard your spirit, and do not act treacherously with the wife of your youth.

Marriage was designed to prevent fornication.

Heb 13:4  Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

1Co 7:2  But, because of the fornications, let each have his own wife, and let each have her own husband.

God didnt make provisions for marriages between 2 men or 2 women, only between one man and one woman. The Bible speaks against homosexuality calling it an abomination to God.

Hope that helps you understand my position on homosexual marriages Chairboy. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 11, 2006, 03:51:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
wow curval... so now you think that certified water or wastewater treatment plant operator is a lowly position?  beneath the silver spoon trust fund set set?  I am supossed to take advice from you on prejudice?
 


I am about as prejudice against poopy water cleaners as you are against the silver spoon trust fund set.  15 all.

I, however, do think women should have the vote and that gay people should be allowed to marry.  30-15.  Your serve.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 11, 2006, 03:55:13 PM
"I am not, nor do I ever wish to steep so low as to sell out my values to make the PC crowd happy."

What you do is simply sprout whatever you have been "taught" without any independent or logical thinking.  You sell yourself out by towing social and political "lines" that you seem incapable of questioning.

You are a lemming.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 03:56:29 PM
Quote
the last time religion dictated what to do, people were burned at the stake.


Not true......my religious beliefs dictate what I do on a daily basis and I have never burned anyone at the stake, nor have I contemplated doing anything so drastic.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 04:08:34 PM
Quote
During the wedding, the couple says yes to each other but the audience is not asked to vote its (dis)agreement AFAIK.


Actually.....every wedding I have been to, right at the end of the ceremony before the Pastor pronounces the couple Man and Wife.....he asks the folks gathered....if anyone present knows any reason these two should not be joined together in Holy Matrimony speak now or forever hold your peace. (or words to that effect) Although technically the *audience* isnt being asks to vote, they are being asked to speak up if they know any reason why the two love birds shouldnt be married.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 04:10:02 PM
Quote
What you do is simply sprout whatever you have been "taught" without any independent or logical thinking. You sell yourself out by towing social and political "lines" that you seem incapable of questioning.


None of us know how Jackal came to have the views he has, that quote is an assumption on your part ;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 04:16:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Jackal1

No gay couples dont have the same rights... they dont have the right to marry the person they love and want to spend the rest of their life with...

you do they dont...

Sexuality isnt a race but obviously it works just as well as a segregating instrument as race...

Tex


In the USA everyone does have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, no one has the right to marry someone of the same sex. So yes we do all have the same rights.

Hiring a lawyer to create a partnership is probably cheaper than forking over the cash for a wedding. Unless you just go before a Justice of the Peace to get married, that option is pretty easy on the wallet.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 11, 2006, 05:15:51 PM
to paraphrase some guy
Quote
When they came for the hermaphrodites,
I remained silent;
I was not a hermaphrodite.

When they locked up the hermaphrodite,
I remained silent;
I was not a hermaphrodite, but i do have nipples.

When they came more hermaphrodites,
I did not speak out;
I was still not a hermaphrodite .

When they came for the rest of the hermaphrodites,
I did not speak out;
I was not hermaphroditic.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out about hermaphrodites
STFU already about hermaphrodites, they said

and now there aint no more hermaphrodites
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 11, 2006, 05:21:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Marriage is an institution, designed and ordained by God from the beginning of time, between one man and one woman.


Certainly not.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 06:36:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Certainly not.


I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on how/when the institution of marriage came about.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 06:41:46 PM
Elfie, I consider religious views a pretty respectable reason for not wanting gay marriage, but you have to understand, in a nation anchored in large part by the Separation of Church and State, they're completely invalid.

Lasz - What makes you think that this:

Quote
Like I said... I have no problem with gays coming up with their own form of marriage


Won't lead to this:

Quote

we are all subsidizing marriage through taxes etc. and making an investment in a way of life. You are asking me to subsidize a whole new group with my money


You don't honestly expect gays, (should they go along with civil unions), to not demand the same tax considerations etc., as every other two-couple household, regardless of what it's called?

If this is a main reason your concerned I guess I can see where you're coming from - not agree with it, but see anyway.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 06:44:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on how/when the institution of marriage came about.


Well, I'd say it was pretty much an economic union and money or goods/services had a heck of a lot more to do with it then God.  (Not sure abot the history of the term "marriage" though, but whatever they called it back then).
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 11, 2006, 07:14:03 PM
Elfie, so you're saying that the Judeo-Christian religion created marriage?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: YUCCA on April 11, 2006, 07:24:59 PM
Who are they actually hurting?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 07:28:04 PM
Quote
Elfie, I consider religious views a pretty respectable reason for not wanting gay marriage, but you have to understand, in a nation anchored in large part by the Separation of Church and State, they're completely invalid.


They arent invalid in the voting booth ;)

I understand (and agree with) the reasons for separation of church and state.

Where do we draw the line on who can marry anyone they want because of the love they have for another human being? The line has to be drawn somewhere or we will have perverts trying to marry kids. If we make an exception for one group, that sets a precedent for the next group.

Even from a secular standpoint I see nothing wrong with the definition of marriage as it stands now.

Even if homosexuals are granted the ability to *marry* by law, I will have a very hard time equating what they have to what I have. It just isnt the same imo.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 07:31:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Elfie, so you're saying that the Judeo-Christian religion created marriage?


No, not exactly. I'm saying that according to the Bible the institution of marriage was created in the beginning of time by God, not Man. Saying the Judeo-Christian religion created the institution of marriage implies that Man created it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 07:45:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie


Where do we draw the line on who can marry anyone they want because of the love they have for another human being? The line has to be drawn somewhere or we will have perverts trying to marry kids. If we make an exception for one group, that sets a precedent for the next group.



We have laws preventing perverts from marrying kids (well, REALLY young ones anyway, see my earlier post about my cousin :rolleyes: ) because we as a society value protecting our children.  I don't think anyone (sane) is ever going to consider letting some 50 year old marry a 4 year old.

Legalizing or not legalizing gay marriage does not have anything to do with protecting anyone.  It won't hurt anyone anymore then regular marriages do.  


Quote

Even if homosexuals are granted the ability to *marry* by law, I will have a very hard time equating what they have to what I have. It just isnt the same imo.


There's nothing wrong with that, IMO.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 07:54:37 PM
Vudak 20 or 30 years ago allowing same sex marriages was unthinkable. If we now allow same sex marriages and set a precendent for changing the laws....which group will be next in line to want the laws changed for them?

It may not happen the very next day, but what about in the next 20 or 30 years? Do we really want to start down that road? I personally dont.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 08:05:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Vudak 20 or 30 years ago allowing same sex marriages was unthinkable. If we now allow same sex marriages and set a precendent for changing the laws....which group will be next in line to want the laws changed for them?

It may not happen the very next day, but what about in the next 20 or 30 years? Do we really want to start down that road? I personally dont.


And as others have pointed out, there was once a time interracial marriage wasn't allowed either.  The precedent has already been set.

Our whole country runs on the precedent of changing laws.

I don't know what group will be the next in line to want the laws changed.  Your guess is as good as mine.  But I'll cross that bridge as to whether or not I agree with it at that time.  All I know is I feel gays should be able to marry, and though some decent points against it have been raised, if I had to put it on the scales of justice, I think my side's got more weight.  IMO, anyway.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 08:07:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval

What you do is simply sprout whatever you have been "taught" without any independent or logical thinking.  


Never had a problem coming up with my own opinions and thinking for myself. I know that is foreign to you. Now go put on your pink shorts and run to the store for shrimp to put on the barbie for when Biff and Buff arrive......Mmmmmmmm K. :)

Quote
You sell yourself out by towing social and political "lines" that you seem incapable of questioning.


Hilarious. Man............have you dialed a wrong number.  :rofl

Just read the last statemnt to the wife. She was lhao. She said "He`s not the quickest one to pick up on anything, is he?" Bout says it all.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 11, 2006, 08:10:43 PM
Can you participate in this discussion without the personal insults, Jackal1?  C'mon, it's a contentious enough subject already.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 08:12:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Can you participate in this discussion without the personal insults, Jackal1?  .


What personal insults hoss?

Could you possibly be less sensitive than to start yelling wolf every time you see a terrier?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 11, 2006, 08:20:57 PM
Quote
Now go put on your pink shorts and run to the store for shrimp to put on the barbie for when Biff and Buff arrive......Mmmmmmmm K.
There ya go, I'm guessing you had forgotten typing that.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 08:24:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
There ya go, I'm guessing you had forgotten typing that.


No, I didn`t forget about it. So, where is the personal insult? I didn`t wear the dang pink shorts. He did. lmao If you consider that a personal insult , let me suggest online spades. Jeeez man, get a grip.
I think your real problem here is that some have a different opinion on the subject than you. If you didn`t want opinions stated you should have stated so in the beginning. I wouldn`t be expecting my opinion on the subject to be changing if I were you. Don`t want to know, don`t ask.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 11, 2006, 08:27:59 PM
mmmmmmkay, I'll let you work that out for yourself.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 08:31:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
mmmmmmkay, I'll let you work that out for yourself.


I have it worked out. Not a problem. Your turn.
Get a grip please.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Seagoon on April 11, 2006, 08:42:55 PM
Ok here I am mentally kicking myself for even considering jumping into yet another gay marriage thread.

Before I do so, let me cite something I wrote earlier so that hopefully I at least won't have to deal with contention that I'm advocating the creation of a theocracy.

As I went back over my sermons and essays, I realized I've only preached on the topic of "gay marriage" once back in 2004 when Massachusetts was in the process of legalizing it and I was getting a lot of questions about what the Christian response to it should be. In order to answer that question I preached a sermon on the subject using 1 Cor. 5 as the starting point, primarily as it teaches Christians to be primarily concerned that sexual immorality not be found in the church. The sermon itself sought to address three key points:

1) The biblical witness on homosexuality and the nature of marriage
2) How Western culture has reached the point on this subject that we have
3) The way the church should respond to the legalization of Gay Marriage

The Sermon is Available online here: http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/cr.htm

Unfortunately, I preached from outline notes, rather than my usual process of writing out the whole text, but I've gone back and reconstructed it as well as I could. Some parts may still be cryptic, but if anyone has questions, I can try to explain what I meant here.

- SEAGOON
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 09:01:10 PM
Just browsing it quickly Seagoon (lot of material) but so far:

"Gay marriage is designed for precisely for the facilitating of uncleanness rather than its prevention."

I'm probably reading too much into this.  I'd say if two gays are happily married and monogamous they'd be more likely to be clean of things such as STDs than two gays swinging it.

What's your interpretation of the word "uncleanness" - is it what I'm thinking of or maybe something more broad?

Just asking you to clear it up, been awhile since I've gone to a Church for something other than a Christmas pageant :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 11, 2006, 09:01:36 PM
Quote
My own ethics have changed dramatically since my conversion. Brothers and sisters, I don't need a civil law to tell me Gay Marriage is wrong, you shouldn't either, and I tell you there is no danger of me performing one.


:aok  I applaud you sir.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 09:01:45 PM
Quote
And as others have pointed out, there was once a time interracial marriage wasn't allowed either.


It's also been pointed out that interracial marriage is still between a man and a woman. This was a race issue that to my knowledge only applied to blacks/white folks. This issue has been rectified and rightfully so. Homosexuality is not a race issue. Comparing apples to oranges imo. :)

In an interracial *straight* marriage the couple are still able to fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply. In a homosexual relationship, that is impossible.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 09:05:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
It's also been pointed out that interracial marriage is still between a man and a woman. This was a race issue that to my knowledge only applied to blacks/white folks. This issue has been rectified and rightfully so. Homosexuality is not a race issue. Comparing apples to oranges imo. :)

In an interracial *straight* marriage the couple are still able to fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply. In a homosexual relationship, that is impossible.


Well, although I guess I am comparing it in that light, I'm also using it as an example of how a fundamental change in our marriage laws occurred in our nation at an earlier time, without such things as 4 year old marriage flooding the gates.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: YUCCA on April 11, 2006, 09:15:51 PM
Whats it to you if they want ot get married.  It doesn't cost you anything.  They aren't hurting you.  They just wanna be happy like everyone else.  Guess some people can't be happy unless everyone is the same as them.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 09:20:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Well, although I guess I am comparing it in that light, I'm also using it as an example of how a fundamental change in our marriage laws occurred in our nation at an earlier time, without such things as 4 year old marriage flooding the gates.


Well, marrying minors wasnt next....homosexual marriages were.

I see what you are saying about the changes being made.

Consider Man's general attitude though. Like small children we push the limits to see just how far we can go. Do you really think that some other group of folks won't say....hey look at what the homosexual community got for themselves...they can marry now! Lets try to get XXXXX for our selves now.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 11, 2006, 09:25:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

Consider Man's general attitude though. Like small children we push the limits to see just how far we can go. Do you really think that some other group of folks won't say....hey look at what the homosexual community got for themselves...they can marry now! Lets try to get XXXXX for our selves now.



I'm sure some other group will, but by the time this whole gay marriage thing works out I'll probably be on my deathbed, anyway, so the next group will be my grandkids' debate :cool:
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Seagoon on April 11, 2006, 09:30:54 PM
Hello Vudak,

Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Just browsing it quickly Seagoon (lot of material) but so far:

"Gay marriage is designed for precisely for the facilitating of uncleanness rather than its prevention."

I'm probably reading too much into this.  I'd say if two gays are happily married and monogamous they'd be more likely to be clean of things such as STDs than two gays swinging it.

What's your interpretation of the word "uncleanness" - is it what I'm thinking of or maybe something more broad?

Just asking you to clear it up, been awhile since I've gone to a Church for something other than a Christmas pageant :)


Sorry, I should have been clearer, the NT word translated "uncleaness" is akatharsia it refers not to a physical sickness, that would be the Greek word astheneo meaning infirm, frail, unwell.

What akatharsia refers to is moral impurity and particularly sexual immorality, Paul uses it in that sense in Romans 1:24, Romans 6:19, 2 Cor. 12:21, etc. Sexual immorality would include all sexual practices forbidden in the word of God, including adultery, fornication, bestiality, incest, pornography, homosexual sex, etc.

Incidentally, most homosexual rights activists are pressing for a full redefinition of the word "marriage" that would also remove the idea that marriage is by nature monogamous. The homosexual community is quite open about the fact that most homosexuals are non-monogamous and that the lifestyle itself encourages promiscuity, especially amongst gay men. For instance, here's a quote from The Male Couple's Guide to Living Together which cites a study done by two gay doctors:

"Only seven couples [out of the 156 interviewed] have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men have all been together less than 5 years. Stated in another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than 5 years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships. That translates into 5 percent monogamous, 95 percent non- monogamous."

So gay marriage is not necessarily going to be about cutting down the risk of STDs, and as a general rule most homosexuals are strongly opposed to linking cutting down the number of one's sexual partners with health. The emphasis is on finding cures for the STDs themselves. Gay marriage, for homosexuals is not a health issue, its a rights and full acceptance issue.

- SEAGOON
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 09:37:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
I'm sure some other group will, but by the time this whole gay marriage thing works out I'll probably be on my deathbed, anyway, so the next group will be my grandkids' debate :cool:


Heh....you just might be right about that. :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Billy Joe Bob on April 11, 2006, 10:02:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Not true......my religious beliefs dictate what I do on a daily basis and I have never burned anyone at the stake, nor have I contemplated doing anything so drastic.


I didnt mean it literal!
gah !

*shakes head* :confused:   i dont understand why people mix state laws and religion......
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Seagoon on April 11, 2006, 10:46:01 PM
Hello Billy Joe,

Quote
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob
I didnt mean it literal!
gah !

*shakes head* :confused:   i dont understand why people mix state laws and religion......


What people believe determines the way they vote and ultimately the way they legislate in a representative democracy. Let's take an atheist for example, he believes that there is no God and that there are no absolutes, only rules of conduct determined via preference and then enforced by the civil magistrate. Let us say that this atheist happens to believe homosexuality is offensive and "unnatural." His preference therefore will be for the state not to redefine marriage in order to allow same-sex marriages. So he votes in accordance with this belief, and calls his legislators to express his desire that they act in accordance with what he believes. He is acting legally according to his preferences and his beliefs, and in a representative democracy he has a right to do that.

Now let us take a Christian. He believes that there is a God, and that this God has revealed his will unto mankind in the Bible, and he believes that the Bible teaches that marriage was established between one man and one woman, and that any other union would be wrong. So he too votes in accordance with his belief, and calls his legislators to express his desire that they act in accordance with his beliefs, and in a representative democracy he too has a right to do that.

So Billy would you prefer:

1) The right to vote and engage in political activity be taken away from religious people.

or

2) The right to vote and engage in political activity be taken away from bible-believing Christians

or

3) Put up with the fact that people who believe things that you don't are going to end up voting and engaging in political activity

Personally, I'm willing to endure 3 and have never suggested disenfranchising any citizen regardless of what he believes.

- SEAGOON
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 11:06:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob
I didnt mean it literal!
gah !

*shakes head* :confused:   i dont understand why people mix state laws and religion......


I know you didnt mean it literally. I was just making the point that not all things about religion include such horrible acts as burning someone at the stake......or things like the Spanish Inquisition.  ;)

If homosexual marriage comes up on the ballot in Colorado, I will vote against it. Is that mixing state laws with religion?

Was it mixing state laws with religion when the laws were originally made?
I dunno on that one, I wasnt there. ;-)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 11, 2006, 11:13:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by YUCCA
It doesn't cost you anything.  They aren't hurting you.


Well problem is your wrong in one sense... It harms thier sense of defenition's-the very words and symbols they think in are broad and ambiguious.   Most people don't handle confusion well.

On thing has become quite clear to me.  People here ethier don't have the education to argure such things on a scientific ground ... or are scared to argue it.

Define the sexes... don't leave anyone out ... and I want clearly defined Z scores for gays, lesbians, hermaphrodites, transsexuals, bisexuals, et cetra.

Since they are so keen on "Normal",  they need to define "Normal".   Can anyone define normal?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 11, 2006, 11:22:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
Well problem is your wrong in one sense... It harms thier sense of defenition's-the very words and symbols they think in are broad and ambiguious.   Most people don't handle confusion well.

On thing has become quite clear to me.  People here ethier don't have the education to argure such things on a scientific ground ... or are scared to argue it.

Define the sexes... don't leave anyone out ... and I want clearly defined Z scores for gays, lesbians, hermaphrodites, transsexuals, bisexuals, et cetra.

Since they are so keen on "Normal",  they need to define "Normal".   Can anyone define normal?


For some of us, it isnt a scientific issue. For some of us, it's wrong in a moral sense. For some of us, that sense of morals comes directly from the Bible.

No one can define what you want defined. Science hasnt gotten that far. ;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 12:16:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
For some of us, it isnt a scientific issue. For some of us, it's wrong in a moral sense. For some of us, that sense of morals comes directly from the Bible.

No one can define what you want defined. Science hasnt gotten that far. ;)


I imagine arguing with a religious person must be something like Hannibal's dealings with Rome.  After Transimene, Trebia and Cannae, they still wouldn't give in.

(600 years later things changed a bit :D )

Personally, I just can't take the Bible seriously.  I don't have any faith that man could have a text with such power to sway in his hands for so long without acting on the urge to add to it from his own agenda, but that's probably for another thread.

Kitty - The only thing i can come up with is "human" or Homo Sapiens Sapiens , if you prefer.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 12:55:35 AM
Quote
Personally, I just can't take the Bible seriously. I don't have any faith that man could have a text with such power to sway in his hands for so long without acting on the urge to add to it from his own agenda, but that's probably for another thread.


Only thing I can really say to that is that I take it on faith this didnt happen.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 12, 2006, 02:38:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on how/when the institution of marriage came about.


It depend of the country you come from for example in the Canary Island polyandry was traditional ...

so ?

It's not because you look at mariage with your christain values that make mariage work according to your way and exclusively according to your education.

Do you know there is no provision in the Old Testament for monogamy ? (well if the 1st wife agree ;))
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 12, 2006, 03:00:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
blah blah blah (brute force argumentation - inefficient but hey, it keeps you busy)

So , are you willing to legalize child molestation also? How about murder? How far are you willing to go with the charade?

So you wish  to legalize that also?


Man, I feel for you. With such reading skills, you must have had a pretty hard time in class, uh? Or are you all the same where you're living? Something in the water, maybe...
Anyway, my answer is NO so you don't need to keep asking about the obvious.

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

I wouldn`t suggest it, but if you do we can discuss it face to face. :)

Great! An internet threat! Take a plane to Brussels and I'm your man but you'll have to know that:
1) I'm fit
2) I'm younger than you
3) I don't play fair when it comes to this

OTOH, I'll let you have the first move (I need to be able to claim that I was defending myself).
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

I don`t know what church you are refering to, but any church that I would consider being married in allows marriage of divorced people.


Here in Europe the lukewarm (tm Seagoon) catholics aren't allowed to marry at the church again after a divorce.
Mmmm so you take what suits you in religion and reject the rest? How convenient... Don't expect to gather much respect from believers and non-believers, though.

Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

Actually.....every wedding I have been to, right at the end of the ceremony before the Pastor pronounces the couple Man and Wife.....he asks the folks gathered....if anyone present knows any reason these two should not be joined together in Holy Matrimony speak now or forever hold your peace. (or words to that effect) Although technically the *audience* isnt being asks to vote, they are being asked to speak up if they know any reason why the two love birds shouldnt be married.


Elfie... since the beginning, I'm talking about civilian, administrative marriages ONLY. Religions decide to forbid gay marriage or not, and I'm fair with that. So try again (and read and think twice before posting please).
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 07:58:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Never had a problem coming up with my own opinions and thinking for myself. I know that is foreign to you. Now go put on your pink shorts and run to the store for shrimp to put on the barbie for when Biff and Buff arrive......Mmmmmmmm K. :)


Ohhhh...good come-back.  This must be a ninja post from the guy from the huge frikken state of Texas. <- insert the old rolley eyes emoticon.

Why do you assume independent thought is foreign to me?  You are the one sprouting off intolerance and sticking to the bible thumping conservative "line" that you admit you will never deviate from.

Shrimp on the barbie is an Australian thing...is your lack of geography education raising its head again?

The pink shorts and Biff and Buff comment "appears" to be dissmissive and hints at the possible accusation of me being gay...maybe not, but I think that is what you are trying to do.  Strange because I have a beautiful wife and three great kids.  Is it the wearing of pink shorts that makes me "gay"?  If so you just keep on showing your ignornace and your intolerance of everything YOU don't think is right.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: midnight Target on April 12, 2006, 08:13:00 AM
Pink shorts aren't gay.....







Cricket is gay.


:cool:
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 08:21:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Man, I feel for you. With such reading skills, you must have had a pretty hard time in class, uh?/B]


Naw.......actualy school was a cakewalk. Pissed a lot of people off. :)

Quote
Anyway, my answer is NO so you don't need to keep asking about the obvious.


With the things and the position you have been taking it was far from obvious.
Perversion is perversion. If you go for one, you might support the other.

Quote
Great! An internet threat! Take a plane to Brussels and I'm your man but you'll have to know that:


Priceless! You must be hard to discuss things with if you are hiding under the bed. :rofl
You ever get to Texas , give me a yell. I`ll buy ya a beer. :)

Quote
Here in Europe the lukewarm (tm Seagoon) catholics aren't allowed to marry at the church again after a divorce.


I`m not Catholic and I`m damn sure not in Yourope.  :)

Quote
Mmmm so you take what suits you in religion and reject the rest? How convenient... Don't expect to gather much respect from believers and non-believers, though.


Explain to me again how much you know about my religion. :aok

Please do come back again if you can figure out what is being discussed.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 12, 2006, 08:34:57 AM
vudak... you have a good point about homosexuals with their own form of marriage eventually getting all the same expensive benifiets as traditional marrriage.... eventualy.   I think that is fair.  if they can make their case that their form of marriage deserves to be rewarded.   but that needs to happen first... they can't ride on the coattails of conventional marriage.

curval.. you (or anyone else) have not answered the question.   you say that gays should be allowed to marry..  I suppose that you feel it is some kind of "right" in order to equalize?  

but then you never answer the question of why brother and sister should not be allowed to marry under the same contract.   Do you believe incestuous (if condoms prevent aids then surely they prevent pregnacncies) couples can't marry.... if there are any restrictions at all to conventional marriage.... why should homos be excluded from being exempted?

If you can say that brother and sister can't marry then why can't you say that homos can't marry?

hell... the gays I know don't want to marry.  They would like the health benifiets (where applicable) but don't like the community property thing at all.

You would probly get more gays behind a plan that gave each citizen with health care the same dollar amount (I am unmarried so get to keep about half or more of my health care "benifiet") than you ever would who want to be "married".

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 08:40:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


Why do you assume independent thought is foreign to me?  


Maybe because as I have never seen any evidence of any from you> Mostly canned  Liberal Yupnish.

Quote
Shrimp on the barbie is an Australian thing...is your lack of geography education raising its head again?


Shrimp on the barbie is pretty well a worldwide thing with the Yup crowd....even here in the friggen huge state of Texas. You need to get out more.


Quote
The pink shorts and Biff and Buff comment "appears" to be dissmissive and hints at the possible accusation of me being gay...maybe not, but I think that is what you are trying to do.


Naw.........just a little Gurly Mannish. :) To claim to be so "behind" this gay marriage thing  you seem very defensive and a little touchy on the subject. Not as permissive as you wish to be believed?

 
Quote
Strange because I have a beautiful wife and three great kids.


Which would prove absolutely nothing. Like I said......your just a little Gurly Mannish, but I`m proud you brought that up. You hear all the time about family men who all of a sudden "decide" they are gay. Guess the genetics were time release, huh? :rofl

Quote
Is it the wearing of pink shorts that makes me "gay"?


Don`t come to me for your answers on the subject. Only your hair dresser knows for sure. :rofl

Seriously Curvie........proud to see you came back. Chair was awful concerned about you. ROFL

Lighten up Francis.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 12, 2006, 08:44:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Naw.......actualy school was a cakewalk. Pissed a lot of people off. :)


You already had 'no one left behind' back then? Lucky you...

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Priceless! You must be hard to discuss things with if you are hiding under the bed. :rofl
You ever get to Texas , give me a yell. I`ll buy ya a beer. :)


Chicken... If I'm unlucky enough to have to go to Bumfux, Tx, I'll sure come and ask you to put your fists where your mouth is. THEN we'll have a beer ;)

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

Explain to me again how much you know about my religion. :aok


I'll admit being poorly informed about all those sects....err 'churches' that you have over there. But again, there better and more interesting things in life and being brainwashed is not on my to-do list.

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

Please do come back again if you can figure out what is being discussed.


I haven't seen much of a discussion from your part: you keep spouting things that you have been 'taught' and accepted as the truth without thinking about it twice. I understand that you're bitter because, just like the roundness of Earth, the wrongness of slave labor, the rights of black people, gay marriage will eventually be accepted and the opponents will realize that it wasn't such a big deal after all. Chill out and open your mind...
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 12, 2006, 08:52:19 AM
deseleys... the discussion is not on whether gay marriage will someday be but on if it is a good idea or not.

I say not.   any study shows that gays are much more prone to aids and are much more promiscuous..

Those things alone are enough to want to exclude them.... just as it is possible to have genetic defects passed on by incest.  

The fact that gay behavior is so risky and casual is what makes it something that would marginalize conventional marriage.

I don't know if it will come to pass or if some comprimise will be reached... some alternate contract for gays.

I am saying that it is not a good idea and not fair to conventional marriage and...  if you allow gays to marry....

What do you base it on?   everyone has a right to marry?   why not incest?  why not pedophiles?   If you can exclude one behavior while still allowing those who practice it the option of marriage under the rules...  then you can do it to any behavior.   That is what is fair.

Fair in this case means that gays can marry under the current rules.  As can brother and sister or pedophiles... they just can't do it to each other.

it is like nude peoples rights.... they have all the rights of everyone else... they just have to wear clothes when they exercise a lot of em.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 09:02:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys

Chicken... If I'm unlucky enough to have to go to Bumfux, Tx, I'll sure come and ask you to put your fists where your mouth is. THEN we'll have a beer B]


Hehe. Chicken???? And you were saying about my reading skills? LOL
I`m always here till closing time. We never close. :)
Priceless.

Quote
But again, there better and more interesting things in life and being brainwashed is not on my to-do list.


Yea, things on the "to do" list usualy get marked off after they are accomplished. :)



Quote
I understand that you're bitter because, just like the roundness of Earth, the wrongness of slave labor, the rights of black people, gay marriage will eventually be accepted and the opponents will realize that it wasn't such a big deal after all.


I have nothing to be bitter about. Gay marriage is not legal here.
I don`t know how old you are. Seems from the style of your posts you must be very young indeed. Even with a very young age, I`d be willing to bet that you will never live to see the day that gay marriage is legalized and accepted in my home state. ;)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 09:10:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
curval.. you (or anyone else) have not answered the question.   you say that gays should be allowed to marry..  I suppose that you feel it is some kind of "right" in order to equalize?  

but then you never answer the question of why brother and sister should not be allowed to marry under the same contract.  


I think that HAS been answered.

If a brother and sister consumate their relationship and a child is concieved, that child will very likely have all kinds of problems.  Mutation, retardation etc etc.  

If two gay people consumate their relationship...nothing happens.  Hopefully, for their sake, there is a "happy ending" but that is about it.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 09:12:45 AM
If I may...I believe the question was about a sterile brother and sister.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 12, 2006, 09:13:17 AM
nope curval... what if one of the incestuous couple is sterile?  what is your objection then?   I believe that is game set and match.... to use your terms..

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 12, 2006, 09:43:14 AM
Ok I'll answer: incestuous brother and sister (or brother and brother or sis and sis...) not reproducing? As long as none is forcing the other, it's not my cup of tea but they aren't hurting anybody. OTOH, I don't remember having heard incestuous brothers and sisters asking for having the right to marry.

Comparing homosexuality with pedophilia is mixing oranges and (bad) apples, Lazs, and you know it. A bit like comparing law-abiding gun owners and gangsters (that should ring a bell). I've explained higher in this thread why.

Gays are more promiscuous? Probably, but I don't think that those willing to fool around are those asking for having the right to marry.

Jackal, I'm 36 and you may be right. But the world is much bigger than Tx (fortunately).
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 09:52:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Maybe because as I have never seen any evidence of any from you> Mostly canned  Liberal Yupnish.

You obviously haven't read many of my threads.  You cannot place me in a stereotypical "liberal" light.  Not sure many liberals voiced support for Bush's presidency, which I did some time ago, for example.  My recent anti-Bush postings have resulted from his actions since he was re-elected.  I am more right wing orientted in my outlook on financial matters, but probably slightly left of the middle on social matters.  Canned bible thumping concervatism is what I see from you in this thread.
 
Shrimp on the barbie is pretty well a worldwide thing with the Yup crowd....even here in the friggen huge state of Texas. You need to get out more.

I need to get out more?  LOL.  What would you know about anything being a "worldwide" thing...you don't go anywhere.  I was in Mumbai India in December, Boston last week, I go to Toronto on May 31st, the UK in July for the Farnsborough airshow and then I travel to Uganda (that is in Africa, just so you are clear) in August.  Where have you been or where do you plan to travel during these times?

Naw.........just a little Gurly Mannish. :) To claim to be so "behind" this gay marriage thing  you seem very defensive and a little touchy on the subject. Not as permissive as you wish to be believed?

I'm not the touchy one.  You are so anti gay marriage that "methinks you doth protest too much".  (You can google that expesssion if you don't understand it.)

Which would prove absolutely nothing. Like I said......your just a little Gurly Mannish, but I`m proud you brought that up. You hear all the time about family men who all of a sudden "decide" they are gay. Guess the genetics were time release, huh? :rofl

I suppose that is true, but I have no plans to become gay at any time.  Wearing pink shorts every once in a while will not change that.

Seriously Curvie........proud to see you came back. Chair was awful concerned about you. ROFL

?????

Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 10:01:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
nope curval... what if one of the incestuous couple is sterile?  what is your objection then?   I believe that is game set and match.... to use your terms..

lazs


The last post was 30-15...and your serve.  If you think you have "won" this little round with spurious red-herring exceptions then it would be 30 all.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Seagoon on April 12, 2006, 11:07:09 AM
Hello DeSelys,

Setting aside our prior "failyahs to co-muny-cate," just a few thoughts regarding your post to Elfie...  

Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Here in Europe the lukewarm (tm Seagoon) catholics aren't allowed to marry at the church again after a divorce.
Mmmm so you take what suits you in religion and reject the rest? How convenient... Don't expect to gather much respect from believers and non-believers, though.
[/b]

Elfie isn't actually being inconsistent at all, the Bible recognizes two legitimate reasons for divorce, in Matthew 19:9 mentions porneia or sexual immorality on the part of one's spouse (i.e. adulterous conduct) or irremediable desertion by one's spouse (1 Cor. 7:15). In these circumstances the covenant is broken and the remarriage of the innocent part is allowed. This is the almost universal confession of the Christian churches that came out of the Reformation. I seriously doubt you'd be interested but I wrote a biblical/exegetical examination of divorce and remarriage in the bible sometime ago for the denominational magazine of another Presbyterian denom (here's an online copy):
http://www.providencepca.com/essays/divorce.html
 
Oh and actually you'll find that I don't have the copyright on the phrase "Lukewarm" Christianity (Greek: Chliaros - tepid)  - Christ said it first in Revelation 3 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ' These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."
 
Quote
Elfie... since the beginning, I'm talking about civilian, administrative marriages ONLY. Religions decide to forbid gay marriage or not, and I'm fair with that. So try again (and read and think twice before posting please). [/B]


Actually there is always a relationship between civil and religious weddings in the USA and there will likely be legal consequences if gay marriage becomes federal law.

As a pastor, I am authorized to act as an agent of the state in conducting weddings. Once the parties involved have obtained a marriage license from the state, I can officiate at their wedding, and that marriage is considered both valid and legally binding. Therefore, if I refuse to marry two men or two women,  they could potentially bring a civil rights suit against the church on the grounds that they are being unfairly discriminated against contrary to the laws of the state. Such suits have already been brought, for instance, against  evangelical churches that have fired gay employees. In fact, if gay marriage is legalized, it is very possible that churches that refuse to marry persons of the same sex will have their civil authority stripped so that a marriage performed by an evangelical pastor would not be considered legally binding.

- SEAGOON
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: indy007 on April 12, 2006, 11:23:54 AM
Been watching Big Love on HBO recently.. I didn't know polygamy(sp?) was banned by Mormons in 1890. The guy playing Roman is doing an interview and equates their struggle with the movement for gay marriage.

Personally, I think if a guy can put up with 3 wives, he deserves a trophy at the least.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 12:17:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon

As a pastor, I am authorized to act as an agent of the state in conducting weddings. Once the parties involved have obtained a marriage license from the state, I can officiate at their wedding, and that marriage is considered both valid and legally binding. Therefore, if I refuse to marry two men or two women,  they could potentially bring a civil rights suit against the church on the grounds that they are being unfairly discriminated against contrary to the laws of the state. Such suits have already been brought, for instance, against  evangelical churches that have fired gay employees. In fact, if gay marriage is legalized, it is very possible that churches that refuse to marry persons of the same sex will have their civil authority stripped so that a marriage performed by an evangelical pastor would not be considered legally binding.

- SEAGOON


All I can say is I guarantee you that if this bad case scenario ever starts to happen, I'll be arguing as vigorously for your right to refuse to marry the couple in the church as I am arguing for gay marriage right now.

Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

Even with a very young age, I`d be willing to bet that you will never live to see the day that gay marriage is legalized and accepted in my home state.
 

Fine by me.  If CT legally marries a gay couple, TX is still going to have to honor it.  (Though not by any means, like it).
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 12, 2006, 12:31:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
All I can say is I guarantee you that if this bad case scenario ever starts to happen, I'll be arguing as vigorously for your right to refuse to marry the couple in the church as I am arguing for gay marriage right now.
Ditto.  The seperation between church and state goes both ways, religion must be protected from government meddling.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 12, 2006, 02:21:18 PM
no curval... you either admit that some exceptions are ok  and therfore gays can be excluded or... that there can be no exceptions between two humans.

That is the end of the match... you can't play any longer so it is over.

oh... deselys... thank you for your answer.  at least you did answer and you say that sterile brother and sister can  marry.   I presume that you would be ok with two sisters or two brothers marrying also?

you say that these people are not asking... they are small and have no power but even you admit that the whole marriage thing is more about us paying for their benifiets than anything else... once the door is cracked and you say that it is some sort of "right" with no exceptions...

What would stop such unions for convienience?

As for promiscuous... it is indeed a factor.   it is possible and does rarely happen that a faithful partner of conventional marriage is infected with aids by (in allmost every case) the male partner who is promiscuous...

Now... if marriage is a vow of loyalty.... would not gay couples expect the same?   They might expect it but... with their far higher promiscuity rate.... they would simply be that much easier victims of aids and such.

The married gay couple is gonna be way more promiscuous and just as dishonest about it.... a real formula for disaster.

There is no plus side to gay marriage.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 02:25:09 PM
Quote
Comparing homosexuality with pedophilia is mixing oranges and (bad) apples,



Apples to Apples, both are deviant behaviors in my belief.

Quote
Elfie... since the beginning, I'm talking about civilian, administrative marriages ONLY. Religions decide to forbid gay marriage or not, and I'm fair with that. So try again (and read and think twice before posting please).


I have read your posts, I dont recall at any point (other than what I just quoted) you saying you are only talking about civil marriages and not church marriages. Maybe you should try to be more clear? :D

Also see Seagoon's post for potential ramifications of a Pastor refusing to marry a homosexual couple. This isnt just a civil issue. If homosexual marriages are made legal throughout the US, someone will ask a pastor to marry them, when he refuses they will file a lawsuit and most likely win regardless of Freedom of Religion in this country.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 12, 2006, 02:30:30 PM
also... pedophiles claim that they can't help their behavior just as homosexuals do.   There is pretty persuasive proof that pedophiles can't be "cured".

It does seem troubling that so many bleeding hearts here are so predjudiced against a group with human rights like pedophiles and those who are incestuous.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 03:05:31 PM
Quote
also... pedophiles claim that they can't help their behavior just as homosexuals do. There is pretty persuasive proof that pedophiles can't be "cured".


Any sinner can be cured (and forgiven) via Salvation through Jesus Christ. (We are ALL sinners, including myself and Seagoon)

John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:17  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 03:24:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

Also see Seagoon's post for potential ramifications of a Pastor refusing to marry a homosexual couple. This isnt just a civil issue. If homosexual marriages are made legal throughout the US, someone will ask a pastor to marry them, when he refuses they will file a lawsuit and most likely win regardless of Freedom of Religion in this country.



I highly doubt they'd win.  Not everyone for gay marriage hates and wants to oppress religious freedoms.  Just like not everyone against gay marriage is a bigot.  If they win the lawsuit the SC would certainly strike it down as Unconstitutional.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 03:33:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
I highly doubt they'd win.  Not everyone for gay marriage hates and wants to oppress religious freedoms.  Just like not everyone against gay marriage is a bigot.  If they win the lawsuit the SC would certainly strike it down as Unconstitutional.


I'm not so sure about that. The *offended* homosexual couple will argue that their civil rights have been violated, the church will argue that their refusal to perform the ceremony is based on Freedom of Religion.

Some large churches are fairly wealthy, smaller churches like Seagoon's have very little. Some will be able to afford attorneys others wont. At some point I believe the Church loses that legal battle simply due to lack of funds.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 03:46:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I'm not so sure about that. The *offended* homosexual couple will argue that their civil rights have been violated, the church will argue that their refusal to perform the ceremony is based on Freedom of Religion.

Some large churches are fairly wealthy, smaller churches like Seagoon's have very little. Some will be able to afford attorneys others wont. At some point I believe the Church loses that legal battle simply due to lack of funds.


Nah, most churches are part of a larger group of some kind, and even if Seagoon's isn't, there'd be some wealthy individual who'd help them out, failing that, I'm sure a group of people would.  Heck, I'd probably send some money, and you know my basic view on religion.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 12, 2006, 04:03:50 PM
So your argurements are based on religious grounds?


Sorry, But I find that UNAMERICAN.  Maybe you should find another country if you want a theocracy.

I happen to belive in the Constitution and great men like Hamilton.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: MANDO on April 12, 2006, 04:04:47 PM
Well, if spanish example is of any help ...

Our tardish, new, pathetic and probably gay president legalized gay marriage two years ago and, as far as I know, no more than 100 gay weedings have been celebrated up today. And I suspect we have more than 200 gays in Spain, so, what about the rest of them?

Simple: only a very small portion of gays are really interested into any kind of marriage, but all of them are pretty interested into any new law, announcement, comment or whatever else that put their colective in the first page of any newspaper. It seems they see themselves as the progressive new state-of-the-art fashion/way of life opposed to the rest of us, obsolete tiranic barbarians.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 12, 2006, 04:10:10 PM
One more time:

Suppose that two siblings live together (non-sexually/incestually) and decide that they want to raise children together. Does the government have any right to deny them any rights or privileges that it grants a married couple? If so, why?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 04:38:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
So your argurements are based on religious grounds?


Sorry, But I find that UNAMERICAN.  Maybe you should find another country if you want a theocracy.

I happen to belive in the Constitution and great men like Hamilton.


Freedom of Religion is as AMERICAN as it gets. I dont want a theocracy and have never stated such.

I guess you believe in the Constitution until you get to the Freedom of Religion part? :p

Vudak, you might be right about some wealthy individual helping out with legal fees, somehow I kinda doubt that groups of people that dont belong to any church would donate for the cause. To many folks think like Blukitty unfortunately.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 12, 2006, 04:47:45 PM
Your the one who wants to base Laws on religous books of ambiguous orgin.

Seperation of church and state is to keep such things seperate.  

Any argurment made on religion is moot, you can find another realigion. and another and another.... where does it stop?  Well that's why the Consititustion explicitly says to not base the goverment on religion.

What's the largest religion in the world?  Should we just adopt it's rules because it's the majority?

No ... that would be UnAmerican
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 12, 2006, 04:55:22 PM
HERMAPHRODITES!
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 04:56:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
no curval... you either admit that some exceptions are ok  and therfore gays can be excluded or... that there can be no exceptions between two humans.

That is the end of the match... you can't play any longer so it is over.


I can't play?  Why not?  Because you say so?  lol

You hair splitting example is about as silly as it gets.

Should gay people be allowed to marry?  THAT is the issue at hand.  If you want to start a thread about siblings getting married please do so.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 04:57:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
Your the one who wants to base Laws on religous books of ambiguous orgin.

Seperation of church and state is to keep such things seperate.  

Any argurment made on religion is moot, you can find another realigion. and another and another.... where does it stop?  Well that's why the Consititustion explicitly says to not base the goverment on religion.

What's the largest religion in the world?  Should we just adopt it's rules because it's the majority?

No ... that would be UnAmerican


I'm guessing you need to (re)read Seagoon's response to another poster on this exact same issue, so I copied and pasted it just for you. :)

What people believe determines the way they vote and ultimately the way they legislate in a representative democracy. Let's take an atheist for example, he believes that there is no God and that there are no absolutes, only rules of conduct determined via preference and then enforced by the civil magistrate. Let us say that this atheist happens to believe homosexuality is offensive and "unnatural." His preference therefore will be for the state not to redefine marriage in order to allow same-sex marriages. So he votes in accordance with this belief, and calls his legislators to express his desire that they act in accordance with what he believes. He is acting legally according to his preferences and his beliefs, and in a representative democracy he has a right to do that.

Now let us take a Christian. He believes that there is a God, and that this God has revealed his will unto mankind in the Bible, and he believes that the Bible teaches that marriage was established between one man and one woman, and that any other union would be wrong. So he too votes in accordance with his belief, and calls his legislators to express his desire that they act in accordance with his beliefs, and in a representative democracy he too has a right to do that.

So Billy would you prefer:

1) The right to vote and engage in political activity be taken away from religious people.

or

2) The right to vote and engage in political activity be taken away from bible-believing Christians

or

3) Put up with the fact that people who believe things that you don't are going to end up voting and engaging in political activity

Personally, I'm willing to endure 3 and have never suggested disenfranchising any citizen regardless of what he believes.

- SEAGOON

Blukitty if Homosexual marriages ever make it to the ballot in Colorado I will be exercising a *no* vote. That is my right to do so regardless of my reasons for voting no instead of yes. Just as it is YOUR right to vote yes for whatever reasons you believe to be right.

*edit* What your post implies is disenfranchising citizens with religious views to maintain Separation of Church and State.

The following is taken from http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm a website dedicated to the First Amendment.

This is James Madison's summary of the First amendment. Madison is generally known as the Father of the Constititution.

Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with me or any other Bible believing Christian voting our conscience based on our religious views.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 05:03:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
One more time:

Suppose that two siblings live together (non-sexually/incestually) and decide that they want to raise children together. Does the government have any right to deny them any rights or privileges that it grants a married couple? If so, why?


I would say yes, the government does have the right to deny privileges that married couples get simply because they are NOT married. /shrug
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 12, 2006, 05:32:15 PM
Most of the south wanted slavery too.... they would have voted for it.  How long were Jim Crow laws voted for?

So lets put it to a vote then, a national referendum.

Come on define the sexes.   I know your smarter than the worlds leading scientists... you can do it with your bible.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 05:44:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
Most of the south wanted slavery too.... they would have voted for it.  How long were Jim Crow laws voted for?

So lets put it to a vote then, a national referendum.

Come on define the sexes.   I know your smarter than the worlds leading scientists... you can do it with your bible.


Slavery has nothing to do with this issue. The slavery issue was rectified 140 yrs ago in this country and rightfully so. Imo it should have been stopped when it first started. Racist laws that made blacks sit in the back of the bus, drink from separate water fountains etc etc etc have been rectified in this country.....and rightfully so.

I have already stated that no one can define the sexes in the way that you want them defined. It just isnt possible because even the world's leading scientists havent broken the DNA code for humans (or any other species for that matter) completely. In fact, that work is still in it's beginning stages with the majority of our DNA code still being unknown.

As far as what the Bible has to say on the sexes:

Gen 1:27  And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

If this issue does make it to a national referendum I suspect it will turn out like the vote in California did with approx. 61% of the people voting no. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 06:02:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
You obviously haven't read many of my threads.


Way too many. Read one, you`ve pretty well read em all. :)

Quote
You cannot place me in a stereotypical "liberal" light.


I don`t have to. You have done a fine job of that all by yourself. I do not wish to place you period.

Quote
Canned bible thumping concervatism is what I see from you in this thread.

LOL I haven`t made reference to the bible or my religion other than to ask one to enlighten me on what he knew about my religion. I have stated my views and beliefs, nothing more , nothing less. I realize that`s hard for you to get a grip on, but hey.........................

Quote
you don't go anywhere.


I don`t. That`s strange. lmao

Quote
I was in Mumbai India in December, Boston last week, I go to Toronto on May 31st, the UK in July for the Farnsborough airshow and then I travel to Uganda (that is in Africa, just so you are clear) in August.


Shame you didn`t get to go anywhere worth going to, but hey, that`s not my fault.

Quote
Where have you been or where do you plan to travel during these times?


Oh I`ve just kicked around mindlessly in 7 or 8 states here in the good ole U.S. of A. Not all of us can have it so good, so don`t let it get ya down. Ya see, none of the places I went to I had to go to. I went because I wanted to, got to take my time and do what I wanted to do when and where I wanted to do it. :)

Quote
You are so anti gay marriage that "methinks you doth protest too much"


And I have still haven`t  gotten my answer to why a straight male would get so solidly "behind" ( Pun intended) the gay movement. Amazing.



Quote
Wearing pink shorts every once in a while will not change that.

:lol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 06:17:14 PM
Jackal, I have responded to your question of why I am so solidly for gay marriage.  Page 3.

Quote

I do have a few gay friends though and they're good guys (and one girl), and good people. I feel bad for them and sympathize with their plight. Also they are a minority. If people like me don't step up for them then their votes are always going to be in the minority. Even with people like me, they still are, but perhaps not forever.

So that's why I stand up for them.


In fairness, it was preceeded by a lame joke about how you and I could get it on, so I could see why you would quickly scroll down and miss the rest :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 06:22:53 PM
I have to say, I find it interesting that some of the same people who say that supporters of gay marriage can't use interracial marriage and such because it's "Not the issue", are using hermanphrodite marriage and pedafiles wanting to marry children as some of their own main points.

C'mon, someone's gotta find that ironic :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: RedTop on April 12, 2006, 06:34:54 PM
Whats a chair turned upside down called in a gay bar?

Seating for 4
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 12, 2006, 06:57:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Way too many. Read one, you`ve pretty well read em all. :)

Try reading them without your blinding bias.

I don`t have to. You have done a fine job of that all by yourself. I do not wish to place you period.

Yes you do.  You want to "place me" into your stereotypical image of a liberal.  On so many counts you'd be wrong.

LOL I haven`t made reference to the bible or my religion other than to ask one to enlighten me on what he knew about my religion. I have stated my views and beliefs, nothing more , nothing less. I realize that`s hard for you to get a grip on, but hey.........................

Your views are simply regurgitated right wing ultraconservatism.  You show absolutely no original thought in anything you write.  Just because I said "bible thumping" does not mean I think you are religious....it is simply a way to describe your neoconservatism...it's right out of the bible-belt.
 
Shame you didn`t get to go anywhere worth going to, but hey, that`s not my fault.

Again, you simply demonstrate your ignorance.  
 
Oh I`ve just kicked around mindlessly in 7 or 8 states here in the good ole U.S. of A. Not all of us can have it so good, so don`t let it get ya down. Ya see, none of the places I went to I had to go to. I went because I wanted to, got to take my time and do what I wanted to do when and where I wanted to do it. :)

Guess what..I wanted to go to the places I went to also.  You should try and "get out more"...outside the good ole U.S.of A.  You might then have some valid opinions.

And I have still haven`t  gotten my answer to why a straight male would get so solidly "behind" ( Pun intended) the gay movement. Amazing.

A very close family friend, who just past away (from natural causes), was gay.  He was a doctor in charge of a very large New York hospital.  The man dedicated his life to pediatrics and saving children from abuse.  He wrote numerous books and helped thousands of children.  His foundation raised millions of dollars for various causes and he was recently honoured by the City of New York for his life's work.  

He saved my grandfather's life on two separate occasions and saved my father's life on another.

To an ignoramus like you he was just a studmuffin though.

Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 07:08:29 PM
I'm sorry to hear that Curval, sounds like he did much for the world.

I have to wonder what would have been said if you didn't specify natural causes.

Oh and Jackal - If you have the means, definately travel the world, Sir! Such a culture shock, it's fun :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 09:42:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Jackal, I have responded to your question of why I am so solidly for gay marriage.  Page 3.
"I do have a few gay friends though and they're good guys (and one girl), and good people. I feel bad for them and sympathize with their plight. Also they are a minority. If people like me don't step up for them then their votes are always going to be in the minority. Even with people like me, they still are, but perhaps not forever."




 :D  Yea, I read it.....and it didn`t answer the question. As a matter of fact it pretty well sums up the asking of the question. Poor little twinkle toes are a minority. You betcha sweet bippy they are a minority in society. So are pedophiles and mass murderers also. You feel sorry for them based on that fact too?
They choose to live a life that disgraces themselves. They will get no sympathy from me. More importantly , they will get no "friendship". That is what raises the question that has yet to be answered.



Quote
Oh and Jackal - If you have the means, definately travel the world, Sir! Such a culture shock, it's fun


Since you seem to have come in late on this issue, we`ll go over it again. :)
I have seen the places of the world that I have a desire to see with a couple of exceptions. Some of the places I have seen I could have done without the experience if you get my drift. I have no desire , nor do I intend to or find it
necessary to visit some place that I have no interest whatsoever in to do the old "I`ve been there" bit. Waste of time.
One of the countries I wouldn`t mind visiting if the occasion arises is Aus. I have a couple of firends who live there. One in Sydney, one in Perth.
The other is certain areas of Africa . It wouldn`t be to absorb the country`s culture, but to spend thirty days in the bush to hunt. Seriously doubt that will ever happen, but you never know.
The rest you can have, along with the "culture shock". :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 12, 2006, 09:55:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval

A very close family friend, who just past away (from natural causes), was gay


This  story starts off very familiar. :)



Quote
He wrote numerous books and helped thousands of children.


There was a gentleman in the news pretty heavily the last portion of 2005. He wrote childrens books. He was on death row and executed in December. Tookie.
Nice little story, but just that.

Quote
To an ignoramus like you he was just a studmuffin though.


We can pretty well just skip the rest of the drivel in your posts and go with this.
Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.
I certainly wouldn`t wish to be on the same plane as you.
From your starting comments to Lazs concerning the cool guys driving by in their nifty rides looking down upon a working man as something inferior to yourself and your "click". Pretty well says it all. Do you also have indepth conversations belittling the farmer while you stuff your face with food?
Yups and Libs.......gotta luv em.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 12, 2006, 10:38:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
:D  Yea, I read it.....and it didn`t answer the question. As a matter of fact it pretty well sums up the asking of the question. Poor little twinkle toes are a minority. You betcha sweet bippy they are a minority in society. So are pedophiles and mass murderers also. You feel sorry for them based on that fact too?
They choose to live a life that disgraces themselves. They will get no sympathy from me. More importantly , they will get no "friendship". That is what raises the question that has yet to be answered.



I don't feel sorry for mass murderers whatsoever.  Pedophiles, well, I feel sorry that they're missing out on the full grown thing, but other than that, nope, don't feel sorry for them either.  

You don't see anything ironic in your question given your reasoning for why interracial marriage doesn't have any similarity/or can't be an argument to/for the current struggle?

If I'm still not answering your question, yer gonna have to rephrase, "explain it to me like I'm a four year old" (I doubt you'll recognise that quote ;) )

Ditto on Africa
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 10:55:08 PM
yeah, ditto on Africa :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 11:07:45 PM
Quote
You don't see anything ironic in your question given your reasoning for why interracial marriage doesn't have any similarity/or can't be an argument to/for the current struggle?


I can see how others could see the irony in that.

Interracial marriages didnt change the basic definition of marriage in either the secular or religious views. (Which is, 1 man, 1 woman) Thats why I think interracial marriages being allowed/banned cant be an arguement here. (Just in case I wasnt clear on that before. :D )
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 12, 2006, 11:44:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I can see how others could see the irony in that.

Interracial marriages didnt change the basic definition of marriage in either the secular or religious views. (Which is, 1 man, 1 woman) Thats why I think interracial marriages being allowed/banned cant be an arguement here. (Just in case I wasnt clear on that before. :D )


Nope, you reject it becasue it doesn't match your view , no logic involved.
btw who is this guy called god you're speaking about ?
I never heard of him.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 12, 2006, 11:47:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Nope, you reject it becasue it doesn't match your view , no logic involved.
btw who is this guy called god you're speaking about ?
I never heard of him.


I reject that arguement for the reason I stated, not simply because it doesnt match my views :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 12:15:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
 Pedophiles, well, I feel sorry that they're missing out on the full grown thing, but other than that, nope, don't feel sorry for them either.  
 


So..........you do.......but you don`t. That clears it up. :noid

Quote
You don't see anything ironic in your question given your reasoning for why interracial marriage doesn't have any similarity/or can't be an argument to/for the current struggle?


"The current struggle"...............:rofl ...........Wheeew buddy! Now that is rich. LMAO
Gay is not a race. It is irrelevant. The race card cannot be played here.
Maybe , with that kind of logic, gays would be better off to first try to get a "special" law passed declaring them a "special" race.

Quote
If I'm still not answering your question, yer gonna have to rephrase,


Oh I believe you get the question. You just don`t know how to answer it. Either way, forget it. You pretty well told me what I wanted to know with the "gay friends" comments.
Spend your time dealing with the "current struggle". I have to go put my 17 inchers back on . It`s getting pretty deep in here.

LITHEN!
Brucie says...Join the current stwuggle. We can spank the big bruisers. :lol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 13, 2006, 12:41:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

"The current struggle"...............:rofl ...........Wheeew buddy! Now that is rich. LMAO

Gay is not a race. It is irrelevant. The race card cannot be played here.
Maybe , with that kind of logic, gays would be better off to first try to get a "special" law passed declaring them a "special" race.


What'd you prefer we call it?  Er... wait nah you better not elaborate ;)

And no, gay is not a race, and no one is saying that.  The comparison is being made to the... ah, how many pages in?  How many times has it been said?  You still claim not to get it?  Ok I'm jumping outta the livewell. :D

But don't worry Jackal, a few years from now once I've earned my classroom, I'll fill your kids/grandkids/nephews/whatever in on those books like "Night," "Maus," etc...  I take it they aren't in your personal library :cool:
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 01:00:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
What'd you prefer we call it?  


We? Are ou taking leadership in the "current struggle" revolution.

Quote
And no, gay is not a race, and no one is saying that.  The comparison is being made to the... ah, how many pages in?  How many times has it been said?  You still claim not to get it?


Oh I "get it" just fine. You seem to be struggling with it....or at least would like for it to be believed as such. Simple......gay is not a race. Race card can`t be played no matter how much you and your revolutionists in the "current struggle" would like for it to be so. Put a Rolls front end on a bug, it`s still a bug. Does not pertain in any form or fashion. Does not compute. Incorrect data. Cuttie say it don`t hang.  Homie don`t play that.

 

Quote
But don't worry Jackal, a few years from now once I've earned my classroom, I'll fill your kids/grandkids/nephews/whatever


And that`s where you would be wrong in assuming that. Have fun in the public school circus though trying to teach your own agenda.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 13, 2006, 01:04:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

And that`s where you would be wrong in assuming that. Have fun in the public school circus though trying to teach your own agenda.



Who said I'm settling for high school?  ;)

If you do have those books in your library, I'd suggest rereading them.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 01:12:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Who said I'm settling for high school?  ;)
B]


And who mentioned high school? :rolleyes:
It`s been fun and all, but it`s getting late and I have to go reread a few chapters in The Antarchist Bible. I don`t remember seeing an antidote for pansy gas. I want to be prepared for when the Pastel Warriors Of The Current Struggle attack. :rofl

Puuuuuuuulllleeeeeeze. :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Thud on April 13, 2006, 02:58:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
In fact, if gay marriage is legalized, it is very possible that churches that refuse to marry persons of the same sex will have their civil authority stripped so that a marriage performed by an evangelical pastor would not be considered legally binding.


There you go, another reason to allow gay marriage...
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 13, 2006, 03:18:26 AM
Elfie...

Quote


You know Lazs, if civil gay marriage become a reality, you won't be forced to go to gay weddings, wipe a tear, get drunk and dance on country music all night long... So where's YOUR problem?


and

Quote


Jackal1, has a civil wedding the same value to you than a church weeding?


You can check the edit timestamps if you don't believe me.

Apples and apples? Not at all:

Quote
...sigh, once again:

Perverts? Yes...to your eyes mostly as homosexuality isn't forbidden by law as child molestation is. Btw, gay marriage is between two consenting adults. The molested child is not consenting (even if he says that he is, his young age voids this affirmation) and is a victim.


The fact that you qualify homosexuality as a perversion has no value: there are no laws punishing this sexual practice.

Seagoon,

First of all, thanks for your post. I've quickly browsed your essay (I'll admit that a lot of references fly way above my head) and I have a general remark:
I find it a bit strange that, while you're claiming that god has said that 'he hates divorce', you're feeling that you have to make a study about what kind of divorces are acceptable religiously just because, in our society, divorce has become very frequent. OTOH, you're staying 'hardcore' on your position about same-sex marriage. This looks a bit like adopting a double standard under social pressure.

About the marriage procedure in Belgium: you have to be civilly married (by the 'mayor' or one of his/her officers) before you may go to the church to be married according to your religion. This is the same procedure for the 5 recognized religions in Belgium. The only exception is if one or both of the couple wishing to marry is at risk to die imminently (disease, accident...), a priest, rabbin,... may perform the marriage ritual immediately. This is defined in a law.

If gay marriage becomes a reality, I'll join Chairboy and the others by defending the right to religions to refuse to perform gay marriages. I'm as much a partisan of the church kept out of the state as of the state kept out of churches (providing the general human rights are respected). Both situations are equally dangerous.


Lazs,

I don't follow your logic that, as gays have more promiscuous behaviours than heterosexuals, they'll be more at risk to contract STDs if gay marriage is allowed. I really don't see how the marriage will INCREASE the risks. At the very worst, it won't diminish it and at best (if both partners stop fooling around), it will cancel it. Not a win-win situation but at least a stalemate-win.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 13, 2006, 06:47:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

I have already stated that no one can define the sexes in the way that you want them defined. It just isnt possible because even the world's leading scientists havent broken the DNA code for humans (or any other species for that matter) completely. In fact, that work is still in it's beginning stages with the majority of our DNA code still being unknown.

As far as what the Bible has to say on the sexes:

Gen 1:27  And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
 


Oh ya that's soooOOOOoo clear.:huh

Thanks for makeing my point while being unable to accept it.

Male and Female are just words..... They cannot be defined... The U.K., for instance, tried to do it with genetics for awhile(XX/XY), then it was proven that this doesn't work ethier.

Words are generalized tools used to communitcate, nothing more, nothing less.   You guys should avoid any field that relies on logical thinking.

So you say betweeen a "Man" and a "Woman" , while you can't even define ethier.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 13, 2006, 07:02:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
This  story starts off very familiar. :)

 

There was a gentleman in the news pretty heavily the last portion of 2005. He wrote childrens books. He was on death row and executed in December. Tookie.
Nice little story, but just that.


Do a google search on a man named Dr. Vincent J. Fontana.

Then take your sarcasm and your ignorance and please put them where the sun doesn't shine.

Don't compare a great man and a great human being with some crimminal who was executed on death row.  This again shows just how ignorant you can be Jackal.

We can pretty well just skip the rest of the drivel in your posts and go with this.
Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.
I certainly wouldn`t wish to be on the same plane as you.
From your starting comments to Lazs concerning the cool guys driving by in their nifty rides looking down upon a working man as something inferior to yourself and your "click". Pretty well says it all. Do you also have indepth conversations belittling the farmer while you stuff your face with food?
Yups and Libs.......gotta luv em.


Yes, stick your head in the sand and dismiss anything you don't agree with by using a petty snapping match I was having with lazs.  Very ninja-like.  

[/B]
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 13, 2006, 08:19:17 AM
ok... so now we see that the entire fabric of conventional marriage is up for grabs...  No exceptions....

It's not just gays but... as some have said... why not incestuous couples?   How does that not marginalize marriage?   I am sure that most of those who are married in the conventional way will feel that marriage is much less...... sacred?  meaningful?  every lessening of requirements makes it less meaningful.  Less meaningful means less of a commitment.  Why bother?  it's just a piece of paper that can, and will, be gotten around.

deselys...  why don't you follow my logic on std?   If you admit that gays are far more promiscuous and just as dishonest as everyone else and... that a gay coupleing is hundreds... probly thousands of times more risky.... the gay couple will stand many times more chance of one of the partners having an affair and of that affair leading to an STD (aids more than likely) and not telling the other....than even non married gays.

Non married gays know the risks and "should" be cautious...  if they are married what will be the excuse to wear condoms say?   Like married couples, will the cheating partner admit it or just "take a chance"?

I say the latter.  Gay married couples will have unprotected sex with each other... otherewise.... what is the point?  is marriage  not a "commitment" to be faithful?  

And... if you believe that part of marriage is outdated too then we are even farther down the slope to the dissolution of the institution.

If there are no rules.... why even have it?  

Why should gays be able to destroy the institution of marriage... they have no right.   they have the right to participate.  They simply have to follow the SAME rules as everyone else,

If that type of marriage is not to their likeing... then they need to form their own type of marriage.   Seems pretty simple to me.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 13, 2006, 08:40:14 AM
Lazs, this doesn't make sense:

you say 'gays are more promiscuous'. Let's say that you are right... then both in the couple are more promiscuous and both are already at risk. Not like a heterosexual couple where the faithful wife is infected by her fooling around ma (or vice-versa).

If you think that one of the gays is faithful and could be infected by his partner, then your postulate that all gays are promiscuous is wrong.

If you say that they marry to be able to have unprotected sex, it would mean that they are having protected sex outside marriage... no STD risk.

If two gays are having a relationship + little extras on the side (unprotected), then marriage wouldn't have any positive effect...but it wouldn't make things worse neither.


Not following you there.


Oh, and about the incestuous brother and sisters, nobody asked to give them the right to marry. YOU kept asking the same question like an ill-raised kid and I finally answered to shut you up. But you're trying to hide a forest behind a twig...
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 13, 2006, 08:56:53 AM
deselys... I think it is you who can't see the forest for the trees... it is all there for you to see.

You focus on gays... you feel gays are getting a bad deal.   You don't care what the consequences are or what is set in motion so long as you get this cause and, to you, wrong.... righted.

I am pointing out the pitfalls..  have you not heard of precident?  once you say that there can be no discrimination based on sexual preference... you open the gates.... How can you not see that incest and polygamy and pedophilia and whatever are not just as discriminated against.

as for the disease/aids aspect.   Are you kidding?  The risk is very low between heterosexual couples... the male is the one mostly cheating too.

In a homosexual marriage you could have two males who both were at a much higher risk for both promiscuity (way more opportunity) and of aids (homosexuals are far more likely to get aids)

are you saying that they will be honest with each other or even as faithful as straights?  that is very naive and goes against studies on gay promiscuity..   Are you saying that they will continue to use protection even tho married?

What would be the point of that?   what kind of a "commitment" is that?  and if you want to get rid of faithfullness in marriage then yu simply further erode it.

It is indeed a slippery slope....you want to go so far and not farther but..... you will have no choice but to see the "logic" of other "groups" that are so far silent....getting their "rights" too.

It is hypocritical to say that you want this and no more if you base it on a human rights platform.

I don't claim to have explained it perfectly but that is the best I can do at explaining common sense.

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 09:09:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys

The fact that you qualify homosexuality as a perversion has no value:
 


The fact that you do not qualify it as perversion speaks volumes.

Quote
there are no laws punishing this sexual practice.


The laws of nature seem to being to doing a great job of that.
There are also no laws here legalizing gay marriage. :) I suspect mainly due to the fact that marriage is betwen a man and a woman. go figure. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 09:26:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Do a google search on a man named Dr. Vincent J. Fontana.


No thanks. Another little story that has nothing to do with gay marriage laws.

Quote
Then take your sarcasm and your ignorance and please put them where the sun doesn't shine.


:D Priceless.
----->.<---- that`s the world`s smallest violin. It`s playing "My Heart Bleeds For You."

Quote
Don't compare a great man and a great human being with some crimminal who was executed on death row.


Hey ...they both wrote children`s books. Tookie was a great man in the eyes of his homies. Both stories are irrelevant though.

Quote
This again shows just how ignorant you can be Jackal.


:) Do you typed that all puffed up? It`s just the "mere mortal" syndrone that most of us suffer from. From your lofty perch it would hard for you to see.

Quote
Yes, stick your head in the sand and dismiss anything you don't agree with by using a petty snapping match I was having with lazs.


You wished my head was in the sand when you get all huffy and throw temper text tantrums and reveal just how above you think you are to everyone else. You do it regularly. You might want to note that you are most definitely a minority on that subject.
The subject here is gay marriage. Try to keep up.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 13, 2006, 09:50:44 AM
This thread need badly a Godwin point.

so here it is :

___   ____   ____   ____   ____   ____   ____
 / __) (____) (____) (____) (____) (____) (__  \
|_|                                          |_|
 _      _                    _       _        _
| |    / |       _ __   ___ (_)_ __ | |_     | |
| |    | |      | '_ \ / _ \| | '_ \| __|    | |
|_|    | |      | |_) | (_) | | | | | |_     |_|
 _     |_|      | .__/ \___/|_|_| |_|\__|     _
| |             |_|                          | |
| |                                          | |
|_|     ____           _          _          |_|
 _     / ___| ___   __| |_      _(_)_ __      _
| |   | |  _ / _ \ / _` \ \ /\ / / | '_ \    | |
| |   | |_| | (_) | (_| |\ V  V /| | | | |   | |
|_|    \____|\___/ \__,_| \_/\_/ |_|_| |_|   |_|
 _                                            _
| |__   ____   ____   ____   ____   ____   __| |
 \___) (____) (____) (____) (____) (____) (____/
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 13, 2006, 10:04:37 AM
"The subject is gay marriage try to keep up"

Oh, I've kept up alright.

Here a few choice quotes you have made in this thread....it's all about perversion and comparing gays to non-humans, child molesters and the like:

"I think gays should have the right to get married and live happily ever after just as soon as we get a large enough shuttle to provide them ALL transportation to their new home on some far away planet. One generation should do the trick.
This would free up resources and manpower to devote to the legalization of child molestation , murder and other such natural acts."

"Race/racism has nothing whatsoever to do with the with the panzy packers. Then the human rights BS is thrown in for more smoke and mirrors. From my point of view, to expect and receive human rights you should first be a human being or at the very least act like one. IMO gays are nor do either. More like an experiment gone wrong that produces some mutant, disgusting life form."

"If you wish and expect human rights, in my view, you have to be a human being or at least act as such. Gays are neither.
The laws of nature are the ones who have anything to do with the pastel purse swingers. They go directly against it.
Would you also like to legalize child molestation and murder, for examples?"

"You can compare apples and oranges if you want to..... or in this case humans to fruits."

"I personaly don`t like the idea of our country being spat upon by a bunch of mutant freak perverts."

"Totaly friggen amazing to me how cheap some folks sell out their self pride to fit into a group that`s nothing but Pick Up The Soap Sams to begin with. "

"If someone wishs to put a flower behind their ear and walk hand in hand with the back seat boogie boyz shouting and wailing about their woes and injustice being done to them , that`s their problem, but certainly not mine."

"My daughters pretty well thought for themselves and had enough common sense to stay away from perverts and wackos."

"Yes perverts. You don`t beleive it is perverted? Not but one reason I can see why a male would believe otherwise. I`ll leave that problem up to you if that is the case."

"Perversion is perversion. If you go for one, you might support the other."

You think yourselfr so enlightened and so "on topic" and yet all you have done is used this thread to highlight your bigotted views.

You won't go and google the man I mentioned.  Why is that?  I suspect it is because you would rather keep your blinders on, bury your head in the sand and never admit that a gay person can do anything good in this world.  The gentleman in question didn't just write books.  He has done more to prevent child abuse than just about anyone in the entire world.  

It's sad really because I suspect you have taught your 4 daughters to be just as bigotted as yourself.  What a shame.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: straffo on April 13, 2006, 10:11:59 AM
The worst about gay marriage is as soon as they will get married they will start mating and reproduce.

I understand fully why some are pretty worried.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 10:14:55 AM
The entire thought and idea is a charade and a mockery to human rights when using that as a toll free pass.
It`s been asked here a few times..."Why do you care or what business is it of anyone`s what goes on in the privacy of their bedroom, etc?"
If it had been kept in "orivacy" and the "bedroom" there probably wouldn`t be much of a problem in society. The fact is, it has been brought out of the bedroom and privacy and made very public. Now it is being asked for it to be viewed as a human rights issue. It certainly is not. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There are laws that allow them to accomplish what they are saying they want. It`s a charade and a farce. A mockery.
Saying that by making gay marriage legal wouldn`t open the door to more mockeries and charades is a bit more than naive.
If it is based on and is looked upon as a human rights isuue, you open the door to almost anything. What`s next? Leagalization of child molestation, murder, the right to marry your milk cow?  Should bank robbery be legalized? Without legalizing it we are standing in the way of the bank robbers pursuit of happiness and fullfilment. Sound far fetched. A very few years ago if you had made the suggestion or made reference to "gay marriage" you would have been the life of the party because you would have been laughed under the table.
There is some real sickos out there in the world that will take the naive and use them to promote their cause.
Getting a wedding ring on a squirrel would be a real trick. Might be next.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 13, 2006, 10:15:43 AM
It kind of amazeing how much you can insult as long as it's from a WASP point of view.

So if such insults keep up can I start telling them what I really think of them?... HTC and Mod's?

----------------------------------------------------------

So I ask agin ..... how can you define marriage as between a Man and a Women when you can't define Man and Woman?

Funny what puts fear into mutant freak rednecks.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 13, 2006, 10:22:14 AM
Lazs, this is using up too much of my time to repeatedly type the same things. Methinks that you don't really read what I write but quickly browse it and post in a knee-jerk reaction.

1 example though:
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Are you saying that they will continue to use protection even tho married?
lazs


The key word is CONTINUE:
1) 2 gays, not married, having lots of affairs, PROTECTED sex => STD risk not absent but much reduced.
2) they meet and marry, they have unprotected sex together
3) let's assume that they continue to have affairs outside marriage...why should they drop the protections that they were using for years? Even if they are purely egotistical (sp?), their own life is at stake too!

Now I don't claim that all gays are only having protected sex. But chances are slim that a gay responsible about the STD risk would be likely to marry a sexual 'kamikaze'... And I don't understand why a gay only interested in adding up his affairs would want to marry.
Add to this that gays are usually much more STD aware than heteros.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: deSelys on April 13, 2006, 10:28:38 AM
Hey Jackal, a few centuries ago it was an heresy to say that earth was in fact round and circling the sun. People were tortured for having DARED to try and explain it to good religious people like you. Food for thought, hmmm?


OTOH, you are right: it won't stop at gay marriage! As soon as this matter is over, I'll promote the sterilization of idiots. You'd better start campaigning against this right now because, contrary to gay marriage, you're directly implied.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 10:37:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
You think yourselfr so enlightened and so "on topic" and yet all you have done is used this thread to highlight your bigotted views.
 


And all you have done is promote your supposed PCness and your more than willingly promotion of the gay lifestyle. You may find it Okie dokie, but I dang sure don`t and will express myself on the issue like I see fit.

Quote
You won't go and google the man I mentioned.  Why is that?


I am not interested in your gay family friend`s legacy. Simple enough for you. It does not pertain to what is being discussed.

Quote
It's sad really because I suspect you have taught your 4 daughters to be just as bigotted as yourself.  What a shame.


My daughters were taught the basics of  right and wrong. That`s really what matters in the long run. After that point, they think and decide for themselves. All four of them are just as sickened by the flamers as I am and rightly so. It`s disgusting a a mark on the human race.
So far you have used descriptions of me as "ignorant" and now a couple of times as "bigotted". Sorry for you that you feel the need to do that just because someone is not willing to sell out their values and beliefs.
If the belief that the gay lifestyle is sickening , disgusting, unnatural and a mockery to humanity itself is "bigotted" in your eyes, then get out the brush and get to painting hoss. As mentioned before, I certainly have no desire to sell out common sense and decency just to follow the PC or Yup crowd in the silver spoon fantasy world such as you seem to find necessary. So break out the camel hair and paint me "bigotted". I , in return, will paint you as a PC sell out.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 10:49:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys

OTOH, you are right: it won't stop at gay marriage!


Prevention is not necessary for the non-existent. Marriage is between a man and a woman.

Quote
As soon as this matter is over, I'll promote the sterilization of idiots. You'd better start campaigning against this right now because, contrary to gay marriage, you're directly implied


I don`t believe you could "promote" chocolate at the Hershey factory, but if you wish to attempt to commit suicide and an end to those who think like you...go for it. :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 13, 2006, 12:05:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
The entire thought and idea is a charade and a mockery to human rights when using that as a toll free pass.
It`s been asked here a few times..."Why do you care or what business is it of anyone`s what goes on in the privacy of their bedroom, etc?"
If it had been kept in "orivacy" and the "bedroom" there probably wouldn`t be much of a problem in society. The fact is, it has been brought out of the bedroom and privacy and made very public. Now it is being asked for it to be viewed as a human rights issue. It certainly is not. Marriage is between a man and a woman. There are laws that allow them to accomplish what they are saying they want. It`s a charade and a farce. A mockery.
Saying that by making gay marriage legal wouldn`t open the door to more mockeries and charades is a bit more than naive.
If it is based on and is looked upon as a human rights isuue, you open the door to almost anything. What`s next? Leagalization of child molestation, murder, the right to marry your milk cow?  Should bank robbery be legalized? Without legalizing it we are standing in the way of the bank robbers pursuit of happiness and fullfilment. Sound far fetched. A very few years ago if you had made the suggestion or made reference to "gay marriage" you would have been the life of the party because you would have been laughed under the table.
There is some real sickos out there in the world that will take the naive and use them to promote their cause.
Getting a wedding ring on a squirrel would be a real trick. Might be next.


Yanno, if you could just type out explanations like these without getting into your superiority rants (see a few posts above for a few prime examples of your "class"), people might actually take you seriously.

Now, if you could actually read our posts without just thinking of ways to make "us" look stupid, you might realize just about all of your questions have already been answered.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 13, 2006, 01:15:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Marriage is between a man and a woman.


Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I have already stated that no one can define the sexes in the way that you want them defined.



------------------------------------

 big·ot (bĭg'ət) pronunciation
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I think it's an apt discription.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 13, 2006, 01:25:21 PM
lolololol "back seat boogie boyz" lolololol
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Elfie on April 13, 2006, 02:06:53 PM
Quote
The fact that you qualify homosexuality as a perversion has no value: there are no laws punishing this sexual practice.


Some states do still have laws on the books that make sodomy (among other things) illegal.

Quote
Male and Female are just words..... They cannot be defined... The U.K., for instance, tried to do it with genetics for awhile(XX/XY), then it was proven that this doesn't work ethier.


Then why did you demand they be defined in a genetic way? I said it couldnt be defined genetically, now you say it cant be defined genetically.

A biological definition would be as simple as: male has a noodle, testicles and apple between his legs and a female has a vagina between her legs, ovaries and uterus inside of her. Definitions of male/female may or may not ever be able to be defined genetically, but they will always be able to be defined biologically.

Quote
big·ot (bĭg'ət) pronunciation


Bigot? Hardly. I have argued my postition and done my best to remain respectful to other posters. I have answered questions put forth to me as honestly as I am able. At no point have I stooped to things such as
Quote
Funny what puts fear into mutant freak rednecks.


Chairboy and Vudak I thank you for your intelligent, insult-free debate. Since this thread is degenerating into a childish, insult hurling debacle I'm out of here :)
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 13, 2006, 02:20:50 PM
deselys...  maybe I am not reading what you write properly...  It does seem tho that you are saying that.... "Ok... I just want gays to be able to marry and then... that's it except that maybe... we can allow incest and then maybe... but.... no... I just think gays are getting a raw deal because I like their cause and they are human and...it is a human right and maybe we can just stop the slippery slope slide after we let the gays in?"

I don't really know what you are saying.  the gays human rights are in no way violated.... least not any more than incestuous people or caring loving pedophiles or those pesky bigamists...  they can all get married under the current rules.

I did note your point on the aids issue and you may have a point... maybe they will be careful in their extramarital affairs but... they will have more extramarital affairs than straights and they will have em with a riskier group and they will be every bit as dishonest about it as any other human... that seems to be a recipe for disaster.   Protection?   is their any such thing?  rubbers weren't made for anal sex... they fail.


my point remains... they marginalize normal marriage just like incest or pedophiles or polygamists... do... I still see no problem with allowing them to have their own form of marriage.

How do you feel about polygamy BTW?  Are you not concerned about these peoples human rights like you are about gays and.... I suppose... you are about those who want to marry incestuously?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 13, 2006, 03:10:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I still see no problem with allowing them to have their own form of marriage.


Your idea is actually quite an interesting one lazs.

What exactly would it be though?  I'm sure we could come up with another name for it....but isn't that all it is...a name change from marriage to "XXXX"?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 13, 2006, 06:13:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Yanno, if you could just type out explanations like these without getting into your superiority rants (see a few posts above for a few prime examples of your "class"), people might actually take you seriously.
 


I claim no superiority over anyone. I also accept none from anyone. I like the your 'class" statement. :) You can either take me seriously or not. I`m not trying to make friends and influence people.
If my views make some mad, which they obviously do. Tough. They are my honest views.
If someone finds my terminology for gays such as pansies, back seat boogie boyz, etc. etc. offensive.....so what? Guess what?  I find the term gay offensive. I view it as a charade and a name invented to cover up what it actualy is....pervert/perversion. I find the whole gay fiasco not only offensive, but disgusting and a mark on humanity in general . IMHO the gall to even think about asking "special" laws to legalize anything to do with this load of horse crap totaly ridiculous and cannot see how a straight male could ever seriously support/promote such a load of horse biscuits and still look hisself in the mirror.
My views/your views. You don`t like mine, I don`t like yours. Big deal. I certainly won`t loose any sleep over it.

Quote
Now, if you could actually read our posts without just thinking of ways to make "us" look stupid, you might realize just about all of your questions have already been answered.


Yea.....so far I have been called ignorant, ignoramus and a bigot. You can bet my main concern is making some here look stupid. I don`t believe any help in that area is needed. :) Someone gets all huffed up because my views are different than theirs and I tell them how disgusting I find it ans state my views, and refuse to bend on the subject or will not sell out so they go on some childish text tantrum.......and you think that`s going to impress me and make me believe they are of superior intelligence or some crap. I find it hilarious. One sell out getting huffy because everyone won`t sell out. Forgetaboutit. Not going to happen.
I call a spade a spade. If some can`t handle the truth that`s their problem. I don`t really care.
Gays, gay lifestyles and actions are totaly disgusting to me and many others. That`s just the way it is and will stay. No matter what kind of whitewash you throw on it and how many roses you pile on it to control the stench, it`s still see through and it still stinks to high heaven.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Vudak on April 13, 2006, 06:39:21 PM
I don't think anyone's getting huffy about about your not changing your views.  Moreso at the way you go about speaking of them.  Say half that stuff in any good-sized workplaces and kiss your butt good bye.

Just things called common curtesy & respect Jackal.  You don't have to agree with everyone else's opinion but you also don't have to go off on a little superiority (I will use that word, see some of your little "gays sind untermenschen" comments above) complex.

No one's asking you to be over the top PC here.  "Gay" or even "Queer" would do just fine.  

Anyway, I kinda like this OT forum.  Think I'll be tipping my hat and heading out the door now.

Edit - before I leave, Elfie, and others, right back at you.  
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 13, 2006, 06:40:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

Then why did you demand they be defined in a genetic way? I said it couldnt be defined genetically, now you say it cant be defined genetically.

A biological definition would be as simple as: male has a noodle, testicles and apple between his legs and a female has a vagina between her legs, ovaries and uterus inside of her. Definitions of male/female may or may not ever be able to be defined genetically, but they will always be able to be defined biologically.

---------------------------------------------------
 
Bigot? Hardly. I have argued my postition and done my best to remain respectful to other posters.


Because some of you need an education, and I tend to like the socratic meathod.

And, no - Biology is not always clear cut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_deficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Eugenides

There's just one example.

The definition of Bigot wasn't for you, it was for Jackal.  You have been respectful-Even if you are unable to admit your sophist fallacies.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 13, 2006, 07:42:33 PM
"You can bet my main concern is making some here look stupid."

LOL!

What you don't realise that your comments here have only served to make you look stupid.

You think that anyone who opposes you in this argument shouldn't even be able to look themselves in the mirror.  You accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of being a liberal pansy who totally condone and supports a gay lifestyle.  To you all of this represents being "on topic" in this thread.

"On topic" for you is calling gays perverts, mutants, freaks and non-humans that shouldn't even have the right to live on the planet.

You question me about my support of this issue, hinting that maybe I have gay tendancies etc.

Then, when I give you an honest answer you point-blank refuse to even check out why I feel strongly about the issue because...it is off topic.

Oh yes...you've done a great job of showing how stupid everyone else is.  

:rolleyes:
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 13, 2006, 07:47:30 PM
"I think you're some kind of deviated prevert. I think General Ripper found out about your preversion, and that you were organizing some kind of mutiny of preverts."
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: mora on April 14, 2006, 03:55:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I still see no problem with allowing them to have their own form of marriage.

What would you mean by that?

The way it works here is that gays can get a civil "wedding" and their "marriage" is called a "registered relationship" and they get the same rights as the straight married couples. I's a good solution IMO. The church can decide themselves if they want to marry them or not, and they don't. Even then it would be called a "registered relationship"

AFAIK even the gays are satisfied with that. Would you and others be willing to accept it?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 14, 2006, 07:25:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
"You can bet my main concern is making some here look stupid."

LOL!


That went over your head I see. I`ll hang the tag on it next time for the challenged. :)

Quote
You accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of being a liberal pansy who totally condone and supports a gay lifestyle.


So......you are now trying to say that you do not condone and support the gay lifestyle? Is that it? If it is you are sure going about it in the wrong way because so far you have been a candidate for the poster child of gay lifestyle. You do. you don`t, you do, you don`t. Corky Romano perhaps? :)

Quote
You question me about my support of this issue, hinting that maybe I have gay tendancies etc.


:lol

Quote
Then, when I give you an honest answer you point-blank refuse to even check out why I feel strongly about the issue because...it is off topic.


Once again.....I am not interested in the least about your gay "family friend". Deal with it.

Quote
Oh yes...you've done a great job of showing how stupid everyone else is.


"Everyone" does not enter the picture. Don`t try to hide behind someone else when you swing your purse please. :)

I`ll lay it out simple for you one more time. I am against any"special" laws being passed for gay marriage or anything else so totaly ridiculous or anything that laws that support/promote something so totaly disgusting and sickening. Lke I said earlier, you can whitewash it and cover it in roses. The stench still comes through like a steaming pile of horse crap. Ridiculous and pathetic.
If you are expecting me to use terminology that shows respect for something I hold in great disdain and find disgusting................... well......you have a long wait.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 14, 2006, 07:36:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Say half that stuff in any good-sized workplaces and kiss your butt good bye.
 


Well.....different locations, different ways I suppose. Around here if the gay support issue was promoted and discussed in any location, as it is being done by some here, I think "kiss your butt goodbye" would be an understatement. At any rate, not all of us play the "meat for the grinder" routine.

Quote
No one's asking you to be over the top PC here.  "Gay" or even "Queer" would do just fine.


So that`s what`s PC huh? Forgetaboutit. I`ll call a spade a spade, thank you.

Quote
Just things called common curtesy & respect Jackal.


I hold no respect for perverts/perversion. None will be given.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 14, 2006, 08:54:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
That went over your head I see. I`ll hang the tag on it next time for the challenged. :)

Yes please.  I doubt you will though...just like in the past when you make clanging geography mistakes and then when it is pointed out you turn around and say "I knew that, I was just being sarcastic".  RRRiiiight.

So......you are now trying to say that you do not condone and support the gay lifestyle? Is that it? If it is you are sure going about it in the wrong way because so far you have been a candidate for the poster child of gay lifestyle. You do. you don`t, you do, you don`t. Corky Romano perhaps? :)

If by not referring to gays as non-humans, or by thinking they aren't freaks mutants and perverts who do in fact deserve to live on ths planet this means I totally condone and support the gay lifestyle, then fine.  By your definition I suppose I do.
 
Once again.....I am not interested in the least about your gay "family friend". Deal with it.

Yes, I realise that you bury your head in the sand and refuse to admit that some gay people have done more for humanity that many straight people.  That would make them human.  This is unacceptable to you, so you act like a child, stick your fingers in your ears and say "Lalalalalalaa I can't hear you."  I hope one day you need help from a gay person and they find out your views and refuse to help you.  That would be poetic justice.

"Everyone" does not enter the picture. Don`t try to hide behind someone else when you swing your purse please. :)

So, it's ME you are trying to look stupid?  But I thought you were being sarcastic?  Or are you being sarcastic again?

I`ll lay it out simple for you one more time. I am against any"special" laws being passed for gay marriage or anything else so totaly ridiculous or anything that laws that support/promote something so totaly disgusting and sickening. Lke I said earlier, you can whitewash it and cover it in roses. The stench still comes through like a steaming pile of horse crap. Ridiculous and pathetic.
If you are expecting me to use terminology that shows respect for something I hold in great disdain and find disgusting................... well......you have a long wait.


You are a lost cause...I can see that.  Again, it is my sincere hope that some event happens in your life which forces you to accept that gay people are not just disgusting non-humans.  I hope your views turn around and bite you on the rear end...so to speak.  Fact is, it is more than likely that a gay person, doctor, dentist, lawyer, whatever, have already helped you out and you never knew it.  Unfortunately they probably didn't know your views.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 14, 2006, 09:17:00 AM
curval... I had something in mind like that finland idea of "regestered relationship"  I don't see how they could have all the same rights as normal marriage tho.   each right needs to be addressed.

I wonder how the gays who were "regestered relationships" would feel about letting in the pedophiles and incest groups and polygamists?

There should be only one inherant right in a "regestered relationship" that of community property... any relationship where both parties are working together should have community property based on what they gain as a couple...

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: mora on April 14, 2006, 09:34:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I wonder how the gays who were "regestered relationships" would feel about letting in the pedophiles and incest groups and polygamists?

Pedophilia is a crime and there's allways a victim, so it has nothing to do with this issue. Homosexuality between consenting adults was/is a victimless crime, even if it used to be/is criminalized somewhere.

Registered incest relationships would be ok only if the persons were sterile. There would problems in verification though, and it would be such a rare occurance that it's unlikely to happen.

Registered polygamy relationship would be fine by me.

And no, I don't have a registered relationship.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 14, 2006, 09:47:14 AM
mora...  I am sure that someone could make a case for a borderline peophile.   Homosexuals risk aids at an alarming rate... why would incest be any different... they could promise to be careful.    polygamy?  I don't care much and you don't either but... we don't speak for the "regestered relationship" crowd.

Are there any rules?  is anyone excluded?   Are straight couples excluded?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 14, 2006, 09:49:37 AM
In the U.S.  why do gays want to be married... perhaps that is how we should approch the discussion.   What are the reasons..

I will start... Is it community property?

Is it health benifiets?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 14, 2006, 10:52:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
If by not referring to gays as non-humans, or by thinking they aren't freaks mutants and perverts who do in fact deserve to live on ths planet this means I totally condone and support the gay lifestyle, then fine. By your definition I suppose I do.  


Nice dance around. Don`t worry about my definition. My stance is obvious.
You do or don`t support/condone the gay lifestlye? Simple question. Yes or no would work.
It would seem to me that someone supporting the enactment of laws for gays to be married would be supporting/condoning the lifestyle.

Quote
So, it's ME you are trying to look stupid?


Speak for yourself. Grow a pair.

Quote
You are a lost cause...I can see that.


Naw..my cause is far from "lost". I think that`s what rubs you the wrong way.
That`s a good thing. :aok

Quote
Fact is, it is more than likely that a gay person, doctor, dentist, lawyer, whatever, have already helped you out and you never knew it.


Had an appointment with a dentist in a new area. Arrived..dentist was a tail swisher. Told him where he could stuff his practice and his lifestyle, left made an appointment with a dentist I knew personaly. End of story.

Quote
Unfortunately they probably didn't know your views.


Yea, very unfortunate. :rofl

Quote
I hope your views turn around and bite you on the rear end...so to speak.  


Break out your Voodoo doll and pins. Maybe that will work for you. Do try to keep the spittle from dropping on the doll while you are obviously frothing at the mouth.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 14, 2006, 11:23:31 AM
....and your a 'Father'?

I shudder to think that your teaching your kids to 'debate' and 'think' in such a way.  It's really not good for their brains.  People that can't argure logicaly don't do too well in school.

And intresting quote from San Antonio..... I wonder what you know about SA and Texas.... or if you just like to thump your poser chest like Bush?

Why don't you "Grow a Pair" and face some arguements.

You can't define Male or Female except in your twisted and perverted brain.  Lets see you try.... I've asked many times.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 14, 2006, 12:18:43 PM
From an online medical dictionary:

Male:
1. An individual of the sex that begets or procreates young, or (in a wider sense) to the sex that produces spermatozoa, by which the ova are fertilized;

Female:
1. An individual of the sex which conceives and brings forth young, or (in a wider sense) which has an ovary and produces ova.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: BluKitty on April 14, 2006, 12:35:13 PM
What about people that don't fall into such defenitions?

Where do you draw the line, Where does one person get an 'exception' and another doesn't?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 14, 2006, 12:37:38 PM
BluKitty, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but what does that have to do with gay marriage?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 14, 2006, 12:41:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
What about people that don't fall into such defenitions?

Where do you draw the line, Where does one person get an 'exception' and another doesn't?


Exceptions are overblown.

From Dictionary.com:

Human: a bipedal primate mammal of the genus Homo (H. sapiens)

Reasonable thought:

Someone who is in a wheelchair who is not bipedal is still a human.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 14, 2006, 01:32:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
....and your a 'Father'?

I shudder to think that your teaching your kids to 'debate' and 'think' in such a way.  It's really not good for their brains.  People that can't argure logicaly don't do too well in school.
 


Well...get you a blanket hoss. The cold is what is making you shudder. You`re out in it. :rolleyes:
All four daughters are grown. All four were in top of their class. You have any "logical" argument?

Quote
And intresting quote from San Antonio..... I wonder what you know about SA and Texas....


Quite a bit. What you wanting to know? Use another thread please and I`ll see if I can help you out. :)

Quote
You can't define Male or Female except in your twisted and perverted brain.  Lets see you try.... I've asked many times.


Yea, you have and if you will notice , up to this point you have been totaly ignored. Why`s the sky blue? Where does rain come from?. What color is clear? Give it a rest.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Holden McGroin on April 14, 2006, 01:57:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Why`s the sky blue? Where does rain come from?. What color is clear? Give it a rest.


The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.

On the surface of water, molecules continuously travel between the gaseous and liquid form.  When there is enough energy for the water to give up more vapor than it absorbs, the vapor which is now warm, rises into the atmosphere until it is cooled by the surrounding air.  

When enough water vapor is concentrated in a given volume of air, the vapor comes out of solution with the air and forms tiny droplets.  These are seen as clouds.

When the aerodynamic forces are too small to keep the droplets in suspension, the droplets begin to fall.

This is where rain comes from.

As color is a wavelength of light, the color we see on objects is actually the reflected lightwaves from that object.  A reflection from the surface of a completely clear object would be all the spectrum of the light source.

Hope this helps.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 14, 2006, 02:07:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
In the U.S.  why do gays want to be married... perhaps that is how we should approch the discussion.   What are the reasons..

I will start... Is it community property?

Is it health benifiets?

lazs


I think you are right lazs...it probably IS the best way to approach the issue.

I think that community property is one reason.  In a hetero relationship if a man and woman live together for a certain period of time in many countries thay are considered "married" under common law.  This would entitle the lower wage earner to a share of the property/assets after a break-up.  Perhaps this is one reason why they want the ability to marry.

I'm not sure about health benefits, but I would imagine that is one of the issues.  If a husband has health insurance generally the spouse, and children are covered under that policy.  I doubt the same applies for a gay couple.

Another issue could be the adoption of children.  Perhaps it would be easier for a gay couple to adopt if they were legally married, I don't know.

What about tax benefits?  It has been so long since I studied any US tax laws and I just don't remember if there is any advantage to being married.  Do you know?

The registered relaionship is not something I am familiar with.  Where did you find out about this?  I'll do a little googling.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 14, 2006, 02:26:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.

On the surface of water, molecules continuously travel between the gaseous and liquid form.  When there is enough energy for the water to give up more vapor than it absorbs, the vapor which is now warm, rises into the atmosphere until it is cooled by the surrounding air.  

When enough water vapor is concentrated in a given volume of air, the vapor comes out of solution with the air and forms tiny droplets.  These are seen as clouds.

When the aerodynamic forces are too small to keep the droplets in suspension, the droplets begin to fall.

This is where rain comes from.

As color is a wavelength of light, the color we see on objects is actually the reflected lightwaves from that object.  A reflection from the surface of a completely clear object would be all the spectrum of the light source.

Hope this helps.


:aok
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 14, 2006, 04:13:47 PM
curval.... if it is community property then there is no need to marry.... any contract would work and "regestered relationship" could have that as part of it.

most health benifiets today are a package... you get so much... you can spend it or not.  it is usually some portion or all of what it would cost to insure a "family"... if you are single you get the balance to in cash or 451's say... that is something everyone should be pushing for in a health plan... not some kind of gay marriage...  gay marriage only helps gays with this.

children?   why would it make it easier for them to adopt than say a "regestered relationship"?   I would not want them to adopt in any case but.... If that is their agenda it seems weak.... regestered relationship would mean the same thing for all legal contracts.

Sooo...  I don't think any of those reasons are valid or, if nothing else... worth destroying a current institution or marginalizing it.

Some say that incestuous couples shouldn't be allowed to marry because.... well... there aren't that many of em?  what is the numbers cut off for human rights?    There are enough gays (or are there?) who want to get married so... they made the cutoff point and their rights are worthwhile?   incest, polygamy and all the other various forbidden groups don't have enough numbers?

Is there some other point to this that I am not being told about?   What is wrong with finlands solution?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: mora on April 14, 2006, 04:40:58 PM
Can't believe this thread is 6 pages long. Touchy subject..
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 14, 2006, 05:10:54 PM
Its seven pages & still nobody know what to do about
Hermaphrodites
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: eskimo2 on April 14, 2006, 05:20:45 PM
I just want to know why Hermaphrodites   perfectly matches your avatar color?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Debonair on April 14, 2006, 05:41:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by pole dancing sheep 'tard guy
I just want to know why Hermaphrodites   perfectly matches your avatar color?


hermaphrodite happinstance?
chicks-with-d**ks chance?
gynadromorph good luck?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Masherbrum on April 14, 2006, 05:43:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
hermaphrodite happinstance?
chicks-with-d**ks chance?
gynadromorph good luck?


:rofl
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 15, 2006, 02:05:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
Its seven pages & still nobody know what to do about
Hermaphrodites  



LMAO

Hey......................they can go screw themselves ....................literaly.
Don`t see them complaining do ya? :D
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 15, 2006, 09:51:04 AM
well.... why should hermos be left out?  

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 15, 2006, 10:11:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
curval.... if it is community property then there is no need to marry.... any contract would work and "regestered relationship" could have that as part of it.

most health benifiets today are a package... you get so much... you can spend it or not.  it is usually some portion or all of what it would cost to insure a "family"... if you are single you get the balance to in cash or 451's say... that is something everyone should be pushing for in a health plan... not some kind of gay marriage...  gay marriage only helps gays with this.

children?   why would it make it easier for them to adopt than say a "regestered relationship"?   I would not want them to adopt in any case but.... If that is their agenda it seems weak.... regestered relationship would mean the same thing for all legal contracts.

Sooo...  I don't think any of those reasons are valid or, if nothing else... worth destroying a current institution or marginalizing it.

Some say that incestuous couples shouldn't be allowed to marry because.... well... there aren't that many of em?  what is the numbers cut off for human rights?    There are enough gays (or are there?) who want to get married so... they made the cutoff point and their rights are worthwhile?   incest, polygamy and all the other various forbidden groups don't have enough numbers?

Is there some other point to this that I am not being told about?   What is wrong with finlands solution?

lazs


I still need to read up on Finland's registered relationship concept.  I haven't had time yet, but it is an interesting concept by the sounds of it.

I'm not understanding the health benefits you speak of, can you be a bit more specific?  You get cash for what exactly?  To pay doctor's bills?  Who gives this to people the insurance companies, govt. or employers?

Here we have no govt. sponsored health benefits.  You need to either pay your own bills, buy private health insurance, in which case you make a claim and they reimburse you, or you have health insurance through your workplace.  Generally the employee and employer split the premium, or the employer decides to pay the whole thing.

Is a 415 some sort of investment plan?

I fail to see how gay marriage would ONLY benefit from this.  If I have an insurance plan that covers my spouse and kids, then they are covered.  If a gay couple only has one insured party but the plan could potentially benefit the partner if they were considered married then surely the current situation is biased against gay couples.  Right?  

As far as the children issue goes, I already stated I do not have enough knowledge about registered relationships to determine if this would make it easier to adopt or not.  If so then perhaps you are right...the idea should be explored as an alternative to gay marriage.  The fact is there is no such "registered relationship" in law in the US, as far as I know, so gay couples remain at a disadvantage right now in this regard.

I don't personally think gay marriage does destroy or marginalise hetero marriages, but perhaps the registered relationship thing is a valid alternative.  But, I think certain people on this BBS would fight just as hard against that as they are willing to do so against gay marriage.  To many of them the issue really isn't about gay marriage at all....they simply think gays don't deserve to exist.  This is patently clear in one particular poster's small mind.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: lazs2 on April 15, 2006, 10:24:26 AM
curval... sorry for not being clear.   Say everyone gets $800 a month to spend on their health benifiets package...  that is the amount that it would reasonably cost to insure an entire family.

If you don't use that money because you are single or have other insurance (many do) then you can put that money in a retirement plan.   it does not matter if you are married or not.

It doesn't matter what is involved with finlands "regestered relationship"  to me.  it only matters that people who should be excluded from heterosexual marriage have their own program.   What they do with it is up to them.

The adoption issue has nothing to do with it.  the regestered relationship would be a contract that would make a gay couple.... if gay couples could adopt through conventional marriage then it would be no more or less difficult through "regestered relationship"   A relationship by any other name.... with community propety and such it would be the same so far as adoption agencies go but...  Other factors would make a gay marriage or "relationship" so different that adoption would still be far more complex even if it were allowed...  

for instance... in a normal marriage... if it breaks up it is allmost a given that the female get's the child....  How would you resolve custody where there is no female or.... two or more of em?  

So really... what else is there?  what is the point to it?  what do they really want?

lazs
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Chairboy on April 15, 2006, 10:36:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
for instance... in a normal marriage... if it breaks up it is allmost a given that the female get's the child....  How would you resolve custody where there is no female or.... two or more of em?
lazs
Is that really the best argument you can make?  Do you honestly believe that the female getting the child usually is right?

Your argument is based on the soundness of the mother always getting the child, no matter how unsuited for parenting she is?!

Of ALL the people, I'm shocked that YOU, lazs, would hold THAT discrimination up as an example of how great the system works.

The answer, of course, is that the parent who is best able to raise the children takes custody.
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Jackal1 on April 15, 2006, 02:05:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
well.... why should hermos be left out?  

lazs


If you start enacting laws such as being discussed they certainly won`t be left out. Along with every other group that exists now or can come up with some name for themselves in the future to jump on the "human rights" bandwagon.
A wacko in this county is in love with his dog. ( I think it had something to do with the wood grain alcohol incident.) If "special" laws are passed based upon it being human rights how could people like him be expected to be left out?
Would the dog be allowed to wear white at the wedding ceremony since it is a preconsumated affair?
Title: Gay Marriage thread
Post by: Curval on April 15, 2006, 05:14:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
curval... sorry for not being clear.   Say everyone gets $800 a month to spend on their health benifiets package...  that is the amount that it would reasonably cost to insure an entire family.

If you don't use that money because you are single or have other insurance (many do) then you can put that money in a retirement plan.   it does not matter if you are married or not.

It doesn't matter what is involved with finlands "regestered relationship"  to me.  it only matters that people who should be excluded from heterosexual marriage have their own program.   What they do with it is up to them.

The adoption issue has nothing to do with it.  the regestered relationship would be a contract that would make a gay couple.... if gay couples could adopt through conventional marriage then it would be no more or less difficult through "regestered relationship"   A relationship by any other name.... with community propety and such it would be the same so far as adoption agencies go but...  Other factors would make a gay marriage or "relationship" so different that adoption would still be far more complex even if it were allowed...  

for instance... in a normal marriage... if it breaks up it is allmost a given that the female get's the child....  How would you resolve custody where there is no female or.... two or more of em?  

So really... what else is there?  what is the point to it?  what do they really want?

lazs


It is kind of refreshing to actually have a civil discussion with you lazs.

I'm not trying to be podantic, but I'm still a bit unclear on these health benefits.  Does everyone in the US get a certain amount of money to put towards health care?  That seems a bit socialist to me (not a jab, just an observation)...is this the case?  

You still haven't answered the tax question.  Is there a tax advantage to be gained by being married over being single?  If so, what exactly are they...is there a deduction, a tax credit...what?

Chairboy answered the adoption question.  While I agree that it is normally the case that a woman gets custody surely you would have to admit that this is unfair and in some cases completely unjustifiable.  In a gay marriage (or registered relationship) it would actually work they way it should...the one who is better capable to raise the child gets custody.

As to the idea of "what is the point" I would have to ask the same question with respect to hetero marriages.  You know yourself that normal marraiges don't always work, haven't you been married twice?  Why did you get married?  What "benefits" were there in your mind?

In my particaular case I got married because my girlfriend became pregnant and I was not going to let my child be brought up without having a father and a mother.  Most people that get married do so....because they love each other and to get married is the ultimate expression of that love.  I know that is probably a whimpy sort of view in your mind, possibly a "metrosexual" outlook  lol....but I think that it is reality.  I would think that is the MAIN reason gays want to marry.  Sappy, maybe...but I think it is the truth.