Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: tapakeg on April 08, 2006, 08:53:01 PM
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Sir, No Sir !!!!
You couldn't pay me enough money in the world. To see this "Documentary"
Sir No Sir (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469589/)
Tap
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How and why is she still alive and in this country?
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jane still alive because she is in this country. but then thats beyond alot of people.
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Great point, JT. And you're right - it's beyond alot of people here.
That war is closing in on 40 years old. Fourty years.
A horrific and sad outcome, sure. And the wounds are still so close to the surface.
There have been dozens and dozens of great books written on the subject. Really great books. Covering both the situation on the ground, and the politics back in Washington.
If you were born in a cocoon, and raised by wolves, and your only outlet to the world was the AH BBS, it's quite understandable that you'd come to believe that the fiasco that was the Vietnam war was the result of some actress called Jane Fonda.
Really.
Vietnam? Jane Fonda this. Jane Fonda that. She's a biatch.
And Mike Moore is fat.
And Kerry is a coward.
And Universities are terrorist breeding grounds.
And the media are in on the conspiracy.
And freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose....
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, and they're winning.
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Originally posted by Nash
Great point, JT. And you're right - it's beyond alot of people here.
That war is closing in on 40 years old. Fourty years.
A horrific and sad outcome, sure. And the wounds are still so close to the surface.
There have been dozens and dozens of great books written on the subject. Really great books. Covering both the situation on the ground, and the politics back in Washington.
If you were born in a cocoon, and raised by wolves, and your only outlet to the world was the AH BBS, it's quite understandable that you'd come to believe that the fiasco that was the Vietnam war was the result of some actress called Jane Fonda.
Really.
Vietnam? Jane Fonda this. Jane Fonda that. She's a biatch.
And Mike Moore is fat.
And Kerry is a coward.
And Universities are terrorist breeding grounds.
And the media are in on the conspiracy.
And freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose....
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, and they're winning.
Perhaps you might not get this comming from the land of the maple leaf and all but many people down here consider Fonda to be a traitor.
Now in another time even in this country she would have been tried and executed for her actions.
Now we may not do that any longer for such actions but that does not mean we do not take the same dim view. Nor does it mean she will ever be forgiven or her actions. Nor does it mean they will ever be forgotten.
If it were up to me. She would have suffered the same fate as Philip Nolan
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Her pic makes a good urinal target.
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Originally posted by Nash
Vietnam? Jane Fonda this. Jane Fonda that. She's a biatch.
And Mike Moore is fat.
And Kerry is a coward.
wow that quote about broken clocks is true
but the ranting mountie-dressed leftie has a way to go to catch up to a small average of the broken clocks lifetime totals of being correct.
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Check my Sig....
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Originally posted by Pooh21
wow that quote about broken clocks is true
but the ranting mountie-dressed leftie has a way to go to catch up to a small average of the broken clocks lifetime totals of being correct.
Pooh,
Nash has never worn a uniform of any public service or military. He is not likely to ever do so either. It's far easier to just throw stones and criticism than to do something actually productive.
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jane and the other war protesters thought they were ending the war, but the north Vietnamese govt tells us that they used the news film of the anti-war protests to keep the north Vietnamese people fighting a war they were losing.
so instead of ending the war the protesters actually prolonged the war, and adding tens of thousands to the dead on all sides.
the law of unintended consequences.
some people never learn from history, todays anti-war protesters are doing the same thing about Iraq, the insurgents keep blowing things up because they think the USA will go away if they blow up enough stuff.
The fools don't understand that if they stop blowing up stuff the US will go away.
Look the insurgents say,boosh's ratings are falling, set off more car bombs.
if you are against the war send a e-mail to the prez and congress, don't go on the 6 o'clock news with it. As don Corleone said to his son " you don't talk family business in front of strangers."
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Originally posted by Maverick
Pooh,
Nash has never worn a uniform of any public service or military. He is not likely to ever do so either. It's far easier to just throw stones and criticism than to do something actually productive.
oh so hes a lumberjack then?
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The fools don't understand
..........
Well we were protesting the war BEFORE it started .... and this mess .... it's a big - WE TOLD YOU SO.
Ya the middle east has issues .. but this wasn't the fix .... and the WMD ploy should have left a bad taste in your mouth .....
god bless The Project for a New American Century?:huh
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
If it were up to me. She would have suffered the same fate as Philip Nolan
:huh
You want her to lead a small expedition into Mexico, and be surrounded and killed?
For treason?
That is beyond odd.
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"oh so hes a lumberjack then?" - Pooh
Heh. The irony of someone in Portland 'Sometimes a Great Notion' Oregon calling me a lumberjack is just rich.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Check my Sig....
I thought a Rockeye was a MK-20. ;)
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Originally posted by Nash
Great point, JT. And you're right - it's beyond alot of people here.
That war is closing in on 40 years old. Fourty years.
A horrific and sad outcome, sure. And the wounds are still so close to the surface.
There have been dozens and dozens of great books written on the subject. Really great books. Covering both the situation on the ground, and the politics back in Washington.
If you were born in a cocoon, and raised by wolves, and your only outlet to the world was the AH BBS, it's quite understandable that you'd come to believe that the fiasco that was the Vietnam war was the result of some actress called Jane Fonda.
Really.
Vietnam? Jane Fonda this. Jane Fonda that. She's a biatch.
And Mike Moore is fat.
And Kerry is a coward.
And Universities are terrorist breeding grounds.
And the media are in on the conspiracy.
And freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose....
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, and they're winning.
It worked great. In the decades to follow, we'll blame the Iraq fiasco on Cindy Sheehan. ;)
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lol - no kidding.
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I'd like to know do u guys think Jane Fonda posing with the north vietnames aintio aircraft gun during a time of war was basically a "good" thing to do?
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No, I don't think so. Not really.
Not too big of a deal in the overall picture of things, was it though?
To listen to folks around here though - it's basically the only thing.
I've haven't seen much dissection of the war containing the names Kennedy, Johnson, McNamara, Kissinger and Nixon....
... but if I had a dime for every time Jane gets a mention.....
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Was it an officially declared war?
I don't believe it ever was. AFAIK, it was a police action. Kind of hard to be a traitor when the nation is not officially at war.
Can't play it both ways IMO.
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Originally posted by john9001
the insurgents keep blowing things up because they think the USA will go away if they blow up enough stuff.
The fools don't understand that if they stop blowing up stuff the US will go away.
Look the insurgents say,boosh's ratings are falling, set off more car bombs.
I don't think you have it right. Who says the insurgents want us out of Iraq. It is in their best interest to keep us tied up in that quagmire. They get more funding if that's the case, they keep in the news if they keep killing us there, and they grow bigger in Arab stature if they keep us tied up there.
I think they want us there and I think they are smarter than you have given them credit for. They may not have wanted us to invade and be there originally, but keeping us there helps their cause more than ours. Especially their financial cause. At least for the near term. Long term...sure they want us out.
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Originally posted by Nash
No, I don't think so. Not really.
Not too big of a deal in the overall picture of things, was it though?
LOL maybe not to you but im sure the men who where guest of the Hanoi Hilton
would disagree with you.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
LOL maybe not to you but im sure the men who where guest of the Hanoi Hilton
would disagree with you.
And I think she’s going to tell you she was young and foolish and regrets it. And if anybody regrets something they’ve done—I’ve regretted some of the things I’ve done in my life—that’s fine with me.
Look, I didn’t like it. I don’t like it. But for me to hold a grudge against her, I think, you know, it’s a waste of time.
John McCain
And you would be wrong.
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That's one POW's opinion.
It's kinda sad that politicans are held up as poster boy war hero vote magnets when the sad fact is that politicans always betray their fellow veterans when they put on the political clown suit and sell out to corporate lobbies.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
That's one POW's opinion.
It's kinda sad that politicans are held up as poster boy war hero vote magnets when the sad fact is that politicans always betray their fellow veterans when they put on the political clown suit and sell out to corporate lobbies.
Yep. One word: Cunningham.
Talk about a true betrayal of his country.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
oh so hes a lumberjack then?
Yes he is. in Fact. Nash is the one the LUMBERJACK SONG (http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/lumberjk.mp3)
was written about ;)
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Originally posted by Urchin
:huh
You want her to lead a small expedition into Mexico, and be surrounded and killed?
For treason?
That is beyond odd.
While that would work too.
wrong Philip Nolan.
I was refering to this Philip Nolan
The man without a country (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/ManOut.shtml)
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Jane was fine.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And you would be wrong.
And how would you know?
You ever been a POW?
As a matter of fact have you ever served your country ?
She is a POS that should choke on a horses dork for all I care skank HO!
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MT, Hanoi Jane may have been foolish, but she wasn't young.
She was 34 years old when she made her infamous trip to North Vietnam. Plenty old enough to know better.
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Just so you guys know, when the revolution happens (not if) Hanoi Jane will be the first up against the wall. You can guess who else will follow her.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
And how would you know?
You ever been a POW?
As a matter of fact have you ever served your country ?
She is a POS that should choke on a horses dork for all I care skank HO!
Well I was never a sniper, but if you took the time to read the quote I posted you would see that it was indeed from a POW.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Yes he is. in Fact. Nash is the one the LUMBERJACK SONG (http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/lumberjk.mp3)
was written about ;)
...and he's okay. :aok
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Originally posted by Stringer
Was it an officially declared war?
I don't believe it ever was. AFAIK, it was a police action. Kind of hard to be a traitor when the nation is not officially at war.
Can't play it both ways IMO.
Betrayal has nothing to do with "an officially declared war".
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Originally posted by Sandman
...and he's okay. :aok
Yes he is.
But you can tell when he has his corset laced up a bit too tight
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(http://www.lightweb.com/images/SFMarch-1.jpg)
(http://home.sandiego.edu/~hhaynes/flowerpower.jpg)
(http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/p/images/poster_andbabies_lg.jpg)
(http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/VVAW06.jpg)
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Oh, now there's some NVA propoganda that brings back pleasant memories. Damn.. chicks in hip hugging bellbottoms sayin 'oh, yes!' to boys with long hair that said 'Hell, No; we won't go!!', rasta spliffs, le bong... yep. Peace, love dope.. being anti-war was fsahionable.. and it gotcha stoned and laid!
Think I go find my woodstock LP and run the Country Joe & The Fish cut.
Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
Yeah, he's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well, there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Yeah, come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
But just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well, there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you can go out and get those reds
'Cause the only good commie is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well, there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, and don't hesitate
To send your sons off before it's too late.
And you can be the first ones in your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Have yah spit on any returning troops yet, Timmy?
Do yah like Gladiator movies, Timmy?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well I was never a sniper, but if you took the time to read the quote I posted you would see that it was indeed from a POW.
I read the quote Mccain has turned into a Kennedy lap dog liberal so I tend to ignore his butt these days.
And wtf is this sniper crap? are you another one of those idiots that see's this mythical Mr Black around every corner?
Get help.
(http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/1504/1382248999jv.th.jpg) (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1382248999jv.jpg)
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gotcha fartwinkle.
So only the "right thinking" POW's never forgave her.
Yep. She lost the war for us all by herself.
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Midnight... I know yer brain functions at levels I can't achieve. So please.. tell me.. in your opinion; who really deserved to be spit upon when they returned from Vietnam.. me or Jane?
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This might open a whole entire can of worms that probably should remain shut, just out of decency (or oldness)... but... nobody can seem to find any actual documented incidents of spitting on the Vets. Or in the few cases where it has been documented, it has always turned out to be inconclusive or outright fabrication.
For such a widespread and accepted phenomena, you would think it would be much, much easier to pin down specific examples of its occurring.
For example, the first link on Google gives me this:
Jerry Lembcke - Stories about spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.
What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."
Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military air bases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge."
I mean, you even heard about people running up to returning vets in airports and throwing jars of urine at them.
Lets be honest, if scores of tree hugging hippies started spitting on scores of battle hardened Vietnam vets, you would hear scores of stories about scores of airport murders.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not so stupid as to believe that there wasn't extreme and misplaced anger. And it probably happened. And it'd be horrible. Were it true.
But.... it's lore now, whether it happened or not.... or whether it happened even close to the extent that we tend to now accept.
If I were a betting man, I'd say that you weren't spit on, Hang. Likewise, I have a hard time thinking that the subject of whether you or Jane deserved getting spit on more helps this debate out any.
But, lol, it's far from my place to note someone's emotional tie to a subject. You were there, and I'm just.... emotional to begin with. :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Midnight... I know yer brain functions at levels I can't achieve. So please.. tell me.. in your opinion; who really deserved to be spit upon when they returned from Vietnam.. me or Jane?
Oh come on Hang. I honor your service and anyone else who put their bellybutton on the line. Vietnam was undoubtedly a ****ty place to be, and I missed out on that little party by exactly 1 month. Believe me I was ecstatic when the draft was suspended one month before my 18th b-day.
This isn't a black and white issue though. I can honor your service and still see the utter foolishness in hanging onto the hatred of some Hollywood bimbo for 40 years. Lots of people contributed to the fiasco that the VN war turned out to be. Our soldiers are not counted among them.
I took issue with fartwinkle’s contention that all POW's still hated Fonda. They don't. I never said I loved her or even her politics, but that doesn't change the facts.
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Nash, I'll submit anecdotal evidence.
When I was active duty in the Navy ('86 -'90) I was talking to a first class petty officer about that time at the end of the Vietnam war. He had just come back stateside as an E3 (this was about '72-'73) and told me he had experienced getting spit on at LAX first hand. He told me about it because in the Age Of Reagan he was very happy to see the uniform get slaps of "atta boy!" rather than getting spit on. I remember well when he told me about getting spit on personally and how much that episode stayed with him.
Yes, I know it's not personal and anecdotal, and it's just one person. But I fail to understand why you think it was not as big a deal as it was. Even if only one person, or just a handful, were spit on, that's still too many. Urban legend or not, the disrespect for these people in uniform was all to apparent no matter what the revisionalists want to say otherwise.
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There's a ton of "anectodal evidence," DiabloTX. That's without dispute. And I ain't calling him a liar.
But you gotta wonder.... with it being such a conceded fact of history - not in specific cases, but as a widespread and commonly accepted phenomenon - why it wasn't witnessed by a third party to the extent that common sense tells you it must.
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Let me ask you this, do you honestly, given the time period, think that events like that would be shown in the media, print or otherwise? I would tend to believe the people that said it happened. This isn't some mysterious scientific event. This isn't global warming. This isn't WMD's. It's respect. Why would they lie about something so trivial to anyone else but them?
Not saying YOU are calling them liars but obviously there are other people out there that think they are lying.
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I don't know what motivates someone to lie. Again, I'm not calling them liars. Just saying that I'm pretty unqualified to assess it.
The media at the time... was not really much different than it is now.
If they could get a decent angle on a returning vet running through a gauntlet of spit, you can bet your arse that you would have seen it.
In fact - is there any video of such a thing?
I agree with you - that it's about respect. And possibly therein lies a motive.
These vets weren't respected as they should have been. It's quite sickening.
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Agreed.
Also, when the spitting happened it wasn't during protests or someplace where the media would be found. It was isolated areas, like just going through an airport, like that guy I was talking to, or walking in a shopping center, and then getting hit with a loogie from out of nowhere. That kind of thing will never be documented in any shape or form other than anecdotally.
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Okay. I totally accept that this must have happened. But my gut is telling me that it was difinitely not on the scale (or even close to it) that we're being led to believe.
I don't know about you, but I'd feel a little bit suicidal in going up to a veteran of the Vietnam war and spitting in his face. Ya know, if I were a hippie and everything.
There's just something here that doesn't add up.
And I just got a feeling that, were it so widespread as to be accepted as a culturally dark and shameful moment, then.... we would certainly all know what it looked like. But we don't. Nobody has seen it.
And say what you will about partisan politics, you know damn well that when the first criticisms of the Iraq war started to trickle in, we'd all be bombarded by slow motion archive video of Vietnam vets getting spat upon to the soundtrack of the Star Spangled Banner. It'd be the first thing we'd see!
So while I don't deny that it probably happened, here.... and maybe there... I also don't consider it to rise to the level of debate quandary seriousness.
I accept it as a valid metaphor for the disrespect.
But truth is truth, and anything other is untruth. I draw a line.
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Wow. Supposition is a powerful. I try to temper it with real life rather than worry about the "what if" or "you damn well know if" line of thinking.
Also realise that if the media did start showing something that negatively happened to vets during Vietnam video accompanied by The Star Spangled Banner the backlash from the majority of this country would cause those media broadcasting it to backtrack immediately and then they'd have to break out their "apology playbook". And we all know they don't do that. Remember CNN back in '97? And, if I recall, it was an unchecked story they aired that negatively impacted the image of the Vietnam Vet.
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Why don't people hate McNamara?
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It wouldn't have to be a news network.
"Romeo69" could splice it together with fifteen minutes and a pirated copy of Final Cut, and saturate the net with it.
The problem is that he's got nothing to work with. It just isn't there.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Why don't people hate McNamara?
I got serious issues with that guy. But appearently we get to talk about spit instead. :D.
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LOL, what do you expect form a former CEO of Ford?
Yeah, enough of the spit talk.
Did I ever tell about the time when I was in a Spit Mk V....?
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Originally posted by Nash
If you were born in a cocoon, and raised by wolves, and your only outlet to the world was the AH BBS, it's quite understandable that you'd come to believe that the fiasco that was the Vietnam war was the result of some actress called Jane Fonda.
I don't know one person who believes that the Vietnam war was a result of Jane Fonda. I know plenty of people who would love to see Jane Fonda shot dead for her acts of treason.
The "fiasco" of the Vietnam war was a result of the north invading the south. The "fiasco" was a result of the US defending the south against invasion by the north. Maybe the US and South VN should have just rolled over for the commies?
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I saw the spitting image of a painting which was painted by someone other than the artist who created the painting upon which the spitting image was based.
SPIT spit spit SPIT spit SPit spIT spit.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
I don't know one person who believes that the Vietnam war was a result of Jane Fonda. I know plenty of people who would love to see Jane Fonda shot dead for her acts of treason.
The "fiasco" of the Vietnam war was a result of the north invading the south. The "fiasco" was a result of the US defending the south against invasion by the north. Maybe the US and South VN should have just rolled over for the commies?
Maybe, or maybe you should have let the Vietnamese duke it out for themselves...
OR....
You should have went into this thing doing everything you could to win.
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Originally posted by Nash
Maybe, or maybe you should have let the Vietnamese duke it out for themselves...
OR....
You should have went into this thing doing everything you could to win.
But if the US let the VN duke it out for themselves, you would not have anything to ***** about.
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Yeah, like that's a worry to me.
Trust me, I'll always find things to complain about. However, I'm flattered to hear that the Vietnam war was conducted for little 'ol me.
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I don't bich about anything. I just "comment" on stuff.
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How luscious for you.
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About the spitting I haven't a clue...but I don't doubt that there were instances of it.
Open acts of disrespect and contempt for those who served in the military was more widespread than people who did not live during that era might suspect.
And members of the military did take a poke at some of their detractors...at least a few I know personally did. My first cousin, a navy veteran, tangled with a guy in San Francisco who shot his mouth off too brazenly. He told me he couldn't WAIT to get out of that place.
But what can you expect from a movement in which many of its members took their cues from radicals like Fonda, who was a founding member of the FTA movement.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
Maybe the US and South VN should have just rolled over for the commies?
I thought we did just that.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I thought we did just that.
Maybe we didn't just roll over, but we sure handed are arses to them and wasted a lot of lives for no apparent reason.
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Yah just have no clue.
Would you accept that a long haired hippie wierdo freak could have his bellybutton summarily kicked for stepping into a goat roper bar in San Antonio circa 1972?
Yah. I got spit on. Almost as bad, the jeering. The 'fingers'. Food thrown at me. At LAX I got hit between the shoulder blades by a 3' tall waiting room ash tray. Had a filthy bathroom trash can dumped over the stall door in a bathroom on me at O'hare.
The uniform was a symbol. Like long hair was a symbol. A statement. People were into 'statements' back then. And Hanoi Jane, being a very vocal, very public mouthpiece of disrespect for servicemen was a symbol. A statement.
(http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/jfgallery/Jane_Fonda-in-Hanoi-2.jpg)
"If 200 people marched on Washington, they made it 200,000. We learned how to deal with the numbers. Of course, every protest, every anti-war speech made by a person such as McGovern, Jane Fonda, Galbraith, all of those only encouraged the Vietnamese, prolonged the war, worsened our condition and cost the lives of more Americans on the battlefield." - Robinson Risner, POW, 1965-1973, quoted in VIETNAM: A Television History Peace is at Hand (1968-1973) Transcript
Nash, this vacant headed ***** killed GI's just as sure as if she pulled the trigger herself. The bile and disgust that wells up when I see either her or Kerry is still as acrid and sickening as it was 35 years ago. And I am not at all fooled by McCain.. who has run the gamit from hero to baffoon and political tool before my own eyes.
"In a debriefing following his years of imprisonment and torture in Vietnam, Arizona Sen. John McCain said he felt 'hatred' for antiwar activists like Jane Fonda who traveled to Hanoi, and feared 'becoming violent' if he met them, according to a never-released Pentagon report reviewed by Newsweek." - Dec. 19, 1999, /PRNewswire/.
Henh. And, right here, right now.. the effectiveness of these 'tools' has spawned more.. well meaning guys that could actually postulate 'hey, did it ever really happen.. I mean.. is it documented??" Fer crissakes, are you that damn blind, dumb, and stupid; Nash?
"The GRU and KGB helped fund just about every antiwar movement and organization in America and abroad... What will be a great surprise to the American people is that GRU and KGB had a larger budget for antiwar propaganda in the United States than it did for economic and military support to the Vietnamese." - Russian defector Staanislov Lunev in 'Through the Eyes of the Enemy'(page 78).
But oh, no.. we musn't condemn the actions of Hanoi Jane.. or Jane herself for doing what she thought was right.. it's not PC to hold people responsible over their entire lifetimes for what they did in their 20's.. after all, we've all done things as kids we'd never do now, right?
Really? What's the penalty for offering aid and comfort to the Enemy in this country these days? Clebrity?
ane Fonda made at least two trips to North Vietnam, the AA gun photos occurred at the end of her July 1972 trip. She traveled again to North Vietnam in Spring 1974 with Tom Hayden and their son Troy O'Donovan Garity. In telling about the 1974 visit, Jane Fonda acknowledged that she had been giving aid and comfort to the enemy, because she made a documentary film titled "Introduction to the Enemy". - Richard Rongstad, June 22, 2005.
But, come on Hang.. after all; she was only one ditzy broad.. how much damage could she really do to guys still trying to stay alive in the land of bad things?
"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9:00 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war, and that she would struggle along with us." - Bui Tin, Colonel, People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) in Wall Street Journal article, Thursday August 3, 1995 (A8).
Nash, that ***** is filth. Low order filth. It's disgusting just thinking that the people of this nation could possibly 'forgive' whats utterly unforgiveable.. she took from us Honor. She took from us the lives of friends trying to do their Duty for the men alongside them..
You just don't get it. And I am very, very sad to realize that if you don't get it; then neither does a very large number of other 'well meaning' people that could not, can not ever concieve of what it feels like to be betrayed the people of the country you served.
And in that, I think you are the lucky ones.
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Shuckins...
"Radicals" were people who were in fact in the majority, who asked for what the government ended up doing.
Where do you get "radicals" from? I call them the citizenry, myself. The folks who fund and allow the government to govern over them. They have every damned right to speak up.
I guess the 70 odd percent of the people opposing Bush are "radical" to you.
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Actually, we pulled our troops out, promising the South Vietnamese government that we would send their military all the weapons and support they needed to carry on the defense of their country.
During the last major offensive by the North Vietnamese military, the South's military fought very well...until they began to run low on ammo and supplies...at which point they desperately asked the U.S. government to replenish their stocks...and Congress renegged on the promise.
And so South Vietnam fell to an enemy that did not have to worry about their supplies drying up because of the wishy-washy politics of its allies.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I took issue with fartwinkle’s contention that all POW's still hated Fonda. They don't. I never said I loved her or even her politics, but that doesn't change the facts.
Did I say all POW's?
I dont think i can speak for the POW's but I think I did elude to the fact that those who where at the hanoi hilton when she visited. She is prolly not on there christmas card list.
And i'm sorry but her actions in my mind should have gotten her butt tossed outta of the country toot sweet.
But insteed she makes millions while those POW's she visited still have to deal with the effects of there captivity.
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Hang. People like Nash will never have a clue.
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Hang - you gotta know that I like you. A lot.
I don't buy what you're saying here, though.
I could totally be wrong... for sure. I'll accept that, and regret it if so.
But I only got what I know to work with.... and it's not adding up to your side of things.
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Originally posted by Nash
Hang - you gotta know that I like you. A lot.
I
how nice.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
Hang. People like Nash will never have a clue.
Oh yeah... this will help the discussion. :aok
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Nash...Fonda could not blame her actions on the f*e*c*klessness of youth...she was 34 damn years old.
If you haven't already googled "Hanoi Jane" and read up on her antics you need to do so. What you'll find is quite revealing.
While she has publicly "apologized" for her actions, methinks just to keep the vets off her back, she has not apologized in the "documentary" mentioned at the start of this thread.
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How come Jane Fonda never went to south Vietnam and protested against the North? The North did start the war by invading the south.
Wonder what Jane saw in the loveable north?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Oh yeah... this will help the discussion. :aok
Like Nash's statements help.
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Actually, I think Nash has some interesting questions.
I'm as interested as he is to hear the answer(s), but I won't hold my breath.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Actually, I think Nash has some interesting questions.
I'm as interested as he is to hear the answer(s), but I won't hold my breath.
what exactly was the interesting question that Nash asked?
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Come on...
I got me a mad heroin addictin at 34. Ya think I don't know about mistakes at 34?
Some of you guy's lives might consist of a blissful adherence to some golden path, or whatever... but hell... 34 is nothing.
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On the other hand Nash, perhaps I'm wrong about her age...she couldn't POSSIBLY get that stupid in just 34 years.
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Originally posted by Nash
Come on...
I got me a mad heroin addictin at 34. Ya think I don't know about mistakes at 34?
Some of you guy's lives might consist of a blissful adherence to some golden path, or whatever... but hell... 34 is nothing.
Sandman, this is the guy you think had an interesting question regarding the Vietnam war?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
On the other hand Nash, perhaps I'm wrong about her age...she couldn't POSSIBLY get that stupid in just 34 years.
Hmmm... a celebrity raised by celebrities. I'd bet she had quite a different perception of reality than we common folk. :)
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Originally posted by Mr Big
Sandman, this is the guy you think had an interesting question regarding the Vietnam war?
He's not questioning Vietnam. He's questioning your perspective.
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Originally posted by Nash
Come on...
I got me a mad heroin addictin at 34.
You are old and will only get older. You better find some reason for life, other that trying to be "hip"
"hip" aint gonna happen forever, Nash, and you already have slipped way beyond "hip"
Just saying.
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Originally posted by Sandman
He's not questioning Vietnam. He's questioning your perspective.
How does he know what my perspective is? And you said that he had some interesting questions. I have not seen one interesting question.
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Try not to be so literal. Let's talk about spit. ;)
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Let's talk about the f-14 model instead!
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I have no regrets worth mentioning for my service. I can't fathom what my life would have been like without the crucible of service. Having lived it, it seems commonplace to me.. but to someone who didn't walk my path, the scenery has no substance.
So be it. I'll miss no sleep over your concept her relevance; I'm comfortable with my reasons for my position with regards to her guilt.. and they, after all; are the only ones that matter.
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LOL. Shades never last you know. ;)
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Being 34 years old is not "nothing" Nash.
Being 14 is nothing. Being 24 is considered young-adulthood.
34 is the start of middle-age. Too old to blame one's foibles on the idiocies of youth.
Fonda had no excuse then...and forty additional years hasn't added anything substantial to her wisdom or character.
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From this vantage point, 34 is still young and subject to youthful mistakes. :)
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Mr. Big blames Vietnam on Commies.
Shuckins blames Vietnam on Hippies.
I hope.... I sincerely hope.... that one day we - we in general - will emerge from this, and apply a greater degree of sophistication to what happened then and what's happening now. Not vilifying what went wrong, and not ignoring what went right.
"Whoever wishes to foresee the future must consult the past; for human events ever resemble those of preceding times. This arises from the fact that they are produced by men who ever have been, and ever shall be, animated by the same passions, and thus they necessarily have the same results."
Machiavelli
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Originally posted by Nash
Mr. Big blames Vietnam on Commies.
Shuckins blames Vietnam on Hippies.
I ....bla bla bla
I Blame the Vietnam war on the poeple who started it. And that's more complicated than most little brains can comprehend.
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Seriously Nash, you need to get a grip on your life.
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My grip is just.... well, it's never been better.
It's a fantastic grip. And several professional athletes are now wearing our "Fantastic Grip" logo on their ballcaps.
(piss off, git.)
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Well Nash...I've said a lot of things in my posts tonight, but I don't believe I said that I blamed Vietnam on the "hippies," although I found them to be a shallow, contemptible lot.
What I DID say was that I blame Fonda for her actions, which helped fuel contempt for our fighting men at home and gave aid and comfort to the enemy.
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I'm 41
I can sing better, play guitar better, write better songs, am more inteligent, sensitive, creative, and generally more hip than anyone else here.
Even I know that I am over the hill and my hipness has long gone.
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That's what I don't think you get, Shuckins.
Fonda didn't "fuel contempt"..... she was a product of it!
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Originally posted by Nash
I hope.... I sincerely hope.... that one day we - we in general - will emerge from this, and apply a greater degree of sophistication to what happened then and what's happening now. Not vilifying what went wrong, and not ignoring what went right.
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amen, grun.
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I understand exactly what you're saying Nash...I just don't agree with it. She is NOT a victim.
Fonda's actions weren't the product of "outside forces." She saw herself as a mover and a shaper of events...she freely and without duress formed her idyllic image of an America transformed by a pure, radical, socialistic movement. It was she, and nobody else, who made the decision to make inflammatory statements about the military and the fighting men fighting in Vietnam.
I strongly suspect that you've performed only a cursory examination of the historical records of what she did. If you are truly objective about this topic you need to read several sources on Hanoi Jane before calling her detractor's motives into question.
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I can certainly understand, Shuckins. And the differences... well, they're okay.
I just don't think that Vietnam falls on her shoulders. I think that you've got to look much higher for that. Like, to the war planners, and the policy makers.
Sure, you've got a beef with Jane Fonda. I get that, though. I can see how.
But like, if Vietnam is 100, then Jane Fonda is roughly 2.
So - where is the shouting over the other 98? Why not the same passion?
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Originally posted by Nash
I just don't think that Vietnam falls on her shoulders.
Really? And I was always led to believe that the war was all because of her. LOL!
Christ.
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Nuke - aka Mr. Big.
Ready to get undressed?
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wow Nash, really quick with the ID.
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I usually suck at ID'n shades.
It helps when they PM you and tell ya who they really are.
Woulda left ya alone... but you're being a doofus.
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I'm not trying to be left alone.
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fine whatever
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BTW, you are being a dipchit. Do you ever really think about some of the things you type here? I mean, really.
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'course - what are you getting at?
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you just seam so simplistic and ignornant in a lot of ways.
I like you. You have talent and are creative. You have a lot going for you, but you seem to have a side to yourself that just won't let you grow up.
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Well then... good for me. :D
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You 2 get a room.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
but you seem to have a side to yourself that just won't let you grow up.
Well Mr Big you've certainly made a big impression.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Mr Big
The "fiasco" of the Vietnam war was a result of the north invading the south. The "fiasco" was a result of the US defending the south against invasion by the north. Maybe the US and South VN should have just rolled over for the commies?
I'm pretty sure you don't know your arse from page 8 on this one.
Of course, the deal that Truman cut with the French to keep Vietnam under their colonial rule had nothing to do with the later mess at all.
Those POW's were there not because of some stupid tart, but directly because of McNamara, et. al.
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String, I don't think you can lay it all at Truman's feet. FDR had his chances but somehow missed every single one. Amazing, eh?
The Pentagon Papers (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pentagon/pent1.html)
Ultimately, U.S. Policy was governed neither by the principle s of the Atlantic Charter, nor by the President's anti-colonialism but by the dictates of military strategy and by British intransigence on the colonial issue.
The United States, concentrating its forces against Japan, accepted British military primacy in Southeast Asia, and divided Indochina at 16th parallel between the British and the Chinese for the purposes of occupation. . U.S. commanders serving with the British and Chinese, while instructed to avoid ostensible alignment with the French, were permitted to conduct operations in Indochina which did not detract from the campaign against Japan.
Consistent with F.D.R.'s guidance, U.S. did provide modest aid to French--and Viet Minh--resistance forces in Vietnam after March, 1945, but refused to provide shipping to move Free French troops there. Pressed by both the British and the French for clarification U.S. intentions regarding the political status of Indochina, F.D.R- maintained that "it is a matter for postwar."
The President's trusteeship concept foundered as early as March 1943, when the U.S. discovered that the British, concerned over possible prejudice to Commonwealth policy, proved to be unwilling to join in any declaration on trusteeships, and indeed any statement endorsing national independence which went beyond the Atlantic Charter's vague "respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live."
So sensitive were the British on this point that the Dumbarton Oaks Conference of 1944, at which the blueprint for the postwar international system was negotiated, skirted the colonial issue, and avoided trusteeships altogether. At each key decisional point at which the President could have influenced the course of events toward trusteeship--in relations with the U.K., in casting the United Nations Charter, in instructions to allied commanders--he declined to do so; hence, despite his lip service to trusteeship and anti-colonialism, F.D.R. in fact assigned to Indochina a status correlative to Burma, Malaya, Singapore and Indonesia: free territory to be reconquered and returned to its former owners.
Non-intervention by the U.S. on behalf of the Vietnamese was tantamount to acceptance of the French return. On April 3, 1945, with President Roosevelt's approval, Secretary of State Stettinius issued a statement that, as a result of the Yalta talks, the U.S. would look to trusteeship as a postwar arrangement only for "territories taken from the enemy," and for "territories as might voluntarily be placed under trusteeship." By context, and by the Secretary of State's subsequent interpretation, Indochina fell into the latter category. Trusteeship status for Indochina became, then, a matter for French determination.
Shortly following President Truman's entry into office, the U.S. assured France that it had never questioned, "even by implication, French sovereignty over Indo-China." The U.S. policy was to press France for progressive measures in Indochina, but to expect France to decide when its peoples would be ready for independence; "such decisions would preclude the establishment of a trusteeship in Indochina except with the consent of the French Government." These guidelines, established by June, 1945--before the end of the war—remained fundamental to U.S. policy.
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Originally posted by Stringer
I'm pretty sure you don't know your arse from page 8 on this one.
Of course, the deal that Truman cut with the French to keep Vietnam under their colonial rule had nothing to do with the later mess at all.
Those POW's were there not because of some stupid tart, but directly because of McNamara, et. al.
It's pretty absurd to lay cause for the vietnam war at hanoi janes feet. It is however not at all absurd to declare that her actions pursuant to the war cost more lives by encouraging and assisting the enemy. It is also not at all absurd connect her vile diatribes regarding the quality of american troops to the treatment of troops by anti-war activists here at home.
By the time I came home it was SOP for American Servicemen to be required to change into civilian clothes before using public transportation inside the US.
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58,248 names on this wall, they died for what ?
Jane Fonda is a hero.
(http://www.senate.gov/~byrd/vietnam_wall.jpg)
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Such a hero that the line to piss on her grave will stretch from sea to shining sea.
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Toad,
Thanks for that info. I had just watched a program the other night on Truman and they had mentioned that as well.
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I have learned alot from this thread,
But to argue that Fonda prolonged the war(IMHO) is not a defensible position.
In order for her to have prolonged the war extra reslove from the US public would have to have made it possible to shorten the war.
There is no indication that is the case. More resolve from the US public would have lengthend the war not shortened it.
All she did (and it is signifigant)was make it less comfortable to fight the war as a US soldier. In this she was cleary setting her self up as the enemy of the US war machine generally and the service men that died and fought there specifically.
So she was earning Hangs hate but she didnt prolong the war. She shortened it.
The length of that war like the length of the occupation of Iraq is strictly a political decision made at the primarys and the polls.
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According to 56th Fighter Group ace Gerald Johnson (he was in charge of 8th AF B-52 late in the Vietnam whatever) poor execution was the reason the war went on so long & was lost
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I think Pongo's point is too easily missed.
And Jane's role here is given too much birth. Still...
If Fonda was in fact instrumental in ending the Vietnam War, through domestic dissent or whatever else, then there are literally thousands of grandchildren who are - at this very moment - hugging grandfathers who would otherwise not exist but because of her. Likewise the grandchildren.
Like ghosts, entire limbs of family trees would evaporate....... the lines shrinking unto themselves as if they never existed. Gone.
Sons of daughters, of sons and daughters, just gone.
What would the happy side of a victorious Vietnam war look like, anyways?
Cheaper Asian manufacturing?
I think we have that despite, no?
It was a stupid war, fought for the wrong reasons, fought badly, and unwinnable.
So if Jane jumps up and tells everyone that they're being retarded, there's a certain part of me that's gonna say "you go!"
And she did.
The very same conviction that compels some to blame her for Vietnam, is the very same conviction by which ghosts hold the bat in their hands in little league, with their fathers watching. Ghosts who make their dads cry in some school play. Ghosts whose stories will never be told.
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according to Johnson it was winnable & they were winning when the plug was pulled
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Hes not likley to say that the B52 offensive was senslessly killing innocent civilians is he.
The Vietnamese seemed willing to take the casualities inflicted, without broadening the war the USAF couldnt truly issolate the north, if thats what he means by "execution" then he should be clear what is is asking for. Sure you can probably trigger korea II in vietnam but is how did that go?
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Gerald Johnson wasn't Bomber Harris & he wasn't talking about carpetbombing civilians.
Called to Command is the book, he wasn't even talking much about the air war.
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Pongo, did you ever read "A Better War" by Lewis Sorley?
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who the hell is 'blaming' Hanoi Jane for the War?
She didn't start it, she didn't end it.
What she did do is label GI's as ignorant baby killers. And I'm using language that's significantly more polite than hers. She was a willing tool of the enemy. She admits it.
She coulda said all that, done all that and she would have been no more of a traitor than Charles Lindberg was for HIS anti-war pro-german stance.
Tell me... would Lindberg still be held in high regard if he made his anti-war speach FROM BERLIN after America got in the war? Or would he have been arrested, tried and convicted of Treason?
Here's a little missive from a guy I have some respect for.
" I received the below message telling me this was 32 years ago and to get a grip! Since I have received several letters similar to Francine's this past month in reference to Jane Fonda. I made the assumption that she was referring to Jane Fonda's trip to North Vietnam since her trip was 32 years ago. To Francine and others out there, I live with some very vivid memories from Viet Nam every day of my life, just like many other Viet Nam Veterans. The war became very personal to me and the memories make the war feel like it happened yesterday.
The following is Francine's letter:
-----Original Message-----
From: Francine Strauss
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:32 PM
To: John Dennison
Subject:
This was 32 years ago - get a grip! We're Americans and we're allowed
to speak our minds. You probably love the controlled, right wing world
of George W. Bush - he will truly destroy our American way to his
"right" way.
My Response to Francine:
Francine,
What are you talking about.....Jane Fonda? If you are talking about Jane Fonda, she in her own words admitted to being a Socialist and revolutionary. Here are some quotes from Ms. Fonda:
On November 21, 1970 she told a University of Michigan audience of some two thousand students, "If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism. " Washington Times July 7, 2000
On July 18, 1970, the People's World, the West Coast's Communist Party publication, carried a telephone interview with Fonda in which she said: "To make the revolution in the United States is a slow day by day job that requires patience and discipline. It is the only way to make it. . . . All I know is that despite the fact that I am one of the people who benefit from a capitalist society, I find that any system which exploits other people cannot and should not exist."
Fonda made the following statement at the University of Texas: "We've got to establish a Socialist economic structure that will limit private profit-oriented businesses. Whether the transition is peaceful depends on the way our present governmental leaders react. We must commit our lives to this transition ...... We should be very proud of our new breed of soldier. It's not organized but it's mutiny, and they have every right." Karen Elliott Dallas Morning News December 11, 1971
"I am not a do-gooder, I am a revolutionary. A revolutionary woman." 1972
What we all have to ask ourselves is why the news media failed to report on her political beliefs during the 1960's. We need to ask why they failed to ask her about her political beliefs when she was doing her book interviews this past month. The only thing she regretted was that pictures were taken of her on the anti-aircraft gun. She does not apologize for any of her other actions. Fonda was trying to portray herself as a regular peace protestor who was against all wars and not her true beliefs as a communist revolutionary. Jane Fonda was not your everyday average war protestor.
We were fighting Communist aggression in South Viet Nam. This aggression was part of Russia's overall plan for world domination through communism by using their strategy called "War of National Liberation". The seeds for this new strategy was planted throughout the world, including the United States where Jane Fonda aided the communists.
As for getting a "GRIP", I put my life on the line for this Country under a Democratic and Republican President. I have seen friends wounded and killed by Communist aggressors (NVA - North Vietnamese Army) in South Viet Nam. At the time I was in Viet Nam I lived by John F. Kennedy's words "Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country". My question to you is: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR COUNTRY?
John D. Dennison
http://www.1stcavmedic.com
There was no response back from Francine in reference to my reply."
More here: http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm
Nope.. she's not the cause of the war. But, she did declare common cause with the enemy, actively supported the enemy and encouraged the enemy to fight on.
That cost lives... American and Vietnamese.
Fact.
And it is unforgiveable.
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Just dont see how it cost lives, and it wasnt and isnt illegal to be a comunist.