Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on April 10, 2006, 08:29:52 AM
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Why should we? Call the INS and say that there are 20 illegals all at the safeway parking lot milling around waiting for work.... there may even be a cop car parked there too. Nothing will happen... the illegals will mill around all day.. They will get in cars and drive away at the end of the day... they won't have green cards or drivers licences...
Call the IRS and say you think so and so is cheating a few bucks on his taxes and see what happens.... or call the ATF and say that some citizen who is a gun owner might have a shotgun with the barell 1/8 of an inch too short. you will get armies of government cops to take down one citizen in no time..
Get stopped in your car in a city and likely you will have two police cars.... maybe more all parked to make sure you don't.... don't what?
Go ten miles over the speed limit past the cop watching 20 illegals do their morning work routine in the parking lot.
Try not wearing your helmet in a helmet law state while driving by said parking lot...
lazs
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Good point, as criminals begin marching today - will they be arrested?
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No they will not. They will be trashing the place... they will be here illegaly... they will drive without a licence and they will be inciting riots.
We will be paying teachers to not teach while students who can't even read or write or do simple math will be getting "extra credit" for going to the protest party.
lazs
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"you cant deport 12 million people" "there is no way all of these illegals would come out of the woodworks"... With protest scheduled for more than 60 US citys today, we could easily get rid of 20,000 of the cancers....To bad it wont happen
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One thing I learned is there is no such thing as justice. It happens as a coincidence not by nature.
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which brings back my original premis.... why obey laws?
lazs
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Because you could randomly be caught and then have to deal with the totaly screwed up "justice" system and pay a lawyer 10-200K to deal with it.
The other reason that works for me is right is right. I don't screw people just because I can.
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Thing is, these people WANT TO WORK. They come to america not to steal but to make a living and help themselves and their families. Saddest thing about this situation is that there ARE US citizens who ARE citizens in the USA and don't do **** but collect welfare and sit on their tulips all day. Those are the people we should be getting rid of.
You guys disgust me.
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Our goverment wants these people here......they dont care about no insurance no... car insurance...they dont pay taxes.....cause we the law abidding people foot the bill for that..........they work for cheap wages which inturn gives that company more profits ...which relates to higher stock prices....which relates to the rich getting richer and the poor poorer!!!
The politicians get rich....from mexicans being here!! thats why they are here!!!
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I think you already stated why lazs. Try not paying your taxes and see how long that goes ignored. Of course when you start obeying laws selectively how long can it be before no law is immune.
Wondered what you guys would think about the demonstrations going on. Couldn't post with my akiron account. It's been a while, hi everyone.
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
Thing is, these people WANT TO WORK. They come to america not to steal but to make a living and help themselves and their families. Saddest thing about this situation is that there ARE US citizens who ARE citizens in the USA and don't do **** but collect welfare and sit on their tulips all day. Those are the people we should be getting rid of.
You guys disgust me.
You are disgusted because people want to obey laws or at least not exploit the world because they can to their own advantage? Oh the humanity!
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rabbit... of course. but what do you think when a cop bypasses 20 illegals to give you a helmet ticket say?
and kaw... I would not have welfare but if we had to... I would have it to supplement work. no work... no welfare... Now... if the unemployment rate reached a certain level say 10%... that would be different but...
You don't have to be very old to remember when roofers and plasterers and sheetrockers and painters etc.. were all respected jobs and done by Americans and done way better than the crap work illegals do.
most people have settled for the lousy skill that illegals have so long that they don't know what good work looks like.
lazs
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
You are disgusted because people want to obey laws or at least not exploit the world because they can to their own advantage? Oh the humanity!
Whats all the top brass of this country doing? How the hell do you think people get ahead in this country? They do it by in some shape or form of exploiting others.
Ask yourself what do you do for a living?
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
It is quite clear that you guys believe that ALL illegal aliens are drunks who can't do anything but leach, crash cars, fill jails, get free health care.
Certainly most are decent people looking for nothing more than a better way of life. Close the borders now and offer those here an opportunity to earn citizenship. If you think the influx of illegal immigrants isn't a huge burden on our health care system then you have haven't had a serious illness or injury lately. Health care costs have gone out of sight.
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Not true!
What I believe is that all illegals are criminals and should be treated as such.
The rest is irrelevant.
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See Rule #7
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
Whats all the top brass of this country doing? How the hell do you think people get ahead in this country? They do it by in some shape or form of exploiting others.
Ask yourself what do you do for a living?
The concept of doing the right thing the right way is beyond you isn't it? I have always treated others as I would wish to be treated myself and it has payed off in the greater majority of the cases. For those like you who believe they must exploit others to get ahead, I fire them.
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Originally posted by lukster
I think you already stated why lazs. Try not paying your taxes and see how long that goes ignored. Of course when you start obeying laws selectively how long can it be before no law is immune.
Wondered what you guys would think about the demonstrations going on. Couldn't post with my akiron account. It's been a while, hi everyone.
Go to IRS and say you like to pay taxes and you are illegal, see whats happend
Go to any insurance company , say you are illegal, and look what they will offer to you.
Id like to see cap chasing another drunk / stoned / danger driver then illegal who look for job.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
The concept of doing the right thing the right way is beyond you isn't it? I have always treated others as I would wish to be treated myself and it has payed off in the greater majority of the cases. For those like you who believe they must exploit others to get ahead, I fire them.
So I take it you own a business.
Follow me here... are you ready....
The goal of your business is to make money.
You hier workers and pay them the LEAST you can to keep costs down
You charge your customers for an OVER priced service or product.
So that you and your buisness makes money.
Naw, you're right no exploiting here just normal business.
EDIT: spelling
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
See Rule #7
Aww man suzzy, that one I actually took some time to post.
couldn't you have just deleted the word in question?
:lol
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
So I take it you own a business.
Follow me here... are you ready....
The goal of your business is to make money.
You higher workers and pay them the LEAST you can to keep costs down
You charge your customers for an OVER priced service or product.
So that you and your buisness makes money.
Naw, you're right no exploiting here just normal business.
Again, if thats how you wish to run your life then go for it. I would rather take care of people and have them keep refering customers and being productive workers.
I subbed out some remodeling work on my house about 6 months ago. The contractor hired incompetent drunks to do the framing work and they screwed the job. He didn't get paid in full nevermind the bonus I was going to originally give him, He and his partner cameback twice to rework the screwed up framing. I also filed a complaint and he will likely lose his license and the guys who did the sheetrock were testing him out on me to see if he was any good. The answer precluded him from getting in on 3 mill in contract work and the additional ongoing work beyond that.
You can run yourself like that guy and spend the rest of you life blaming the world for your shortcomings or you can just do the right thing and not worry about it. I made my choice and am happy with it.
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blk.... it doesn't matter if every single illegal alien is a drunk or a hard worker or a combination of both.... what is important is that he is breaking some major laws.... and more than a few of em.
My solution does not involve punishing the illegals tho except to send then back...
My solution involves mandatory jail time for employers.... The problem will end when a few wussy lawbreaking employers all go to prison.
lazs
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The equation is simple;
Illegal is Illegal, and Legal is Legal. Period.
Forget the stupid debate over a hypothetical person's individual quality; you can't make foolish generalizations about willingness, or unwillingness, to work about anybody.
The only valid and legitimate question is; Did an individual enter this country according to the Rule of Law, and thereby demonstrate thier respect for the laws of the country they wish to be a part of? Or, did the individual choose to ignore the legal opportunity, convince themselves that they are entitled to break the law, and enter this country without permission?
Disgust? Disgusting is being so reactionary, so simple-minded and so PC that you'd even defend criminal behavior, rather than accept that there are limits to everything in life.
How 'bout this: I DESERVE to be a wealthy man. I DESERVE it. I'm ENTITLED to it. And doing it the legal way is too difficult, too demeaning and there aren't enough opportunities for everyone who wants to be wealthy as well.
So, I'll be over to YOUR houese, to steal YOUR money, YOUR food, your car, your medicine and your job...'cause I deserve it. Besides, I hear you didn't want them anyway.
Now, that sounds perfectly fair, right?
Before anyone cries foul, and says that not all immigrants steal, I say I agree...legal immigrants don't, and usually work pretty hard as good citizens.
Illegal border-crashers steal by definition...nothing here belongs to them, and they have no right to TAKE what is not theirs.
Anything else is simply convenient rationalization of criminal behavior.
The solution is in re-evaluating and reforming the current policies, limits and procedures....as well as strict enforcement and harsh penalties for both illegals and the organizations which hire them.
We are ALL immigrants, or the children of immigrants. The only difference is, mine choose to ask permission first.
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Originally posted by lazs2
blk.... it doesn't matter if every single illegal alien is a drunk or a hard worker or a combination of both.... what is important is that he is breaking some major laws.... and more than a few of em.
My solution does not involve punishing the illegals tho except to send then back...
My solution involves mandatory jail time for employers.... The problem will end when a few wussy lawbreaking employers all go to prison.
lazs
From what we just saw in both the house and the senate it ain't gonna happen lazs. What's the next best thing? I think our first priority has to be to secure our borders. After that we can talk about what to do with those here illegally.
I like what i'm hearing from Tom Tancredo of Colorado, hope he runs for prez.
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was bugs me personally about the whole situation is the media, and the illegals themselves.
they are out there protesting, making a big giant thing of it, and the media is eating it up, like if there are this many "protesters" the whole country must be behind them
i feel as strongly or more AGAINST them, but i can not take the day out of work to do something as foolish as protest.
so here i sit at work, doing my part for myself and society, and the liberal media wants no part of it. the real american is meaningless.
lazs is right. why bother?
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Originally posted by Goomba
The equation is simple;
Illegal is Illegal, and Legal is Legal. Period.
When laws aren't enforced are they really laws?
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Originally posted by lazs2
They will be trashing the place... they will be here illegaly... they will drive without a licence and they will be inciting riots.
We will be paying teachers to not teach while students who can't even read or write or do simple math will be getting "extra credit" for going to the protest party.
lazs
And while all of this has been going on across the country in the last few weeks we have been paying Law enforcement to protect them. City staff have also been into the mix along with counties. Mucho hours of planning, overttime, etc.
For what? If you wish to come to this country, then go through the process and enter legaly. I have no problem with that. This has been let go on unchecked for way too long. We have seen some of it`s results and they are not pretty. Times are tense and our borders needs to be secured. It`s just plain common sense. It`s not just the Mexican people either. Not by a long shot. If you leave the chicken coop door open, the wolves and foxs will enter. It`s not rocket science. It`s common sense. Quit punishing the citizen and catering to the culprits.
DART and other transportation companies seems to be doing pretty good off of it though. :)
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Well in south tejas, the majority of the police force and city governments are descendants of, or have family members who are illegal aliens.
In other words they are americans of mexican descent, so it's not surprising that they're not going out of their way to counter immigration from Mexico.
I presume it's probably much the same in the other border states.
viva la raza
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Originally posted by Suave
Well in south tejas, the majority of the police force and city governments are descendants of, or have family members who are illegal aliens.
In other words they are americans of mexican descent, so it's not surprising that they're not going out of their way to counter immigration from Mexico.
I presume it's probably much the same in the other border states.
viva la raza
"NEW YORK (AP) -- Thousands of immigrant rights supporters formed a line stretching more than a mile long Saturday as they marched across the Brooklyn Bridge, waving flags from more than a dozen countries as they demonstrated against possible immigration reform in Congress."
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It`s not a border state issue. It`s a nationwide issue.
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BlckMgk
what don't you understand about the word illegal, it would be really funny if a illegal took your job.
but it's too late to close the border now, there are too many of them here and they vote or their relatives vote.
if they want to live in America the only answer is to invade Mexico and make it part of the USA, then they can stay home and have all the benefits of living in the evil USA.
Mexico and USA and Canada have all be around for about the same amount of time, so why are things so bad in Mexico and not in USA and Canada? the govt of Mexico is and always has been corrupt, so overthrow the govt and liberate the people of Mexico.
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Gomba:
That was very well put, and I agree with you.
The problem is two part:
1- As you put it illegal is illegal, if they don't come in legitimately they shouldn't be here.
2- If they are here, the people who employ their labor.
I have a first hand experience as an imigrant, and those around me are mostly imigrants, or are 1st generation US citizens. Its difficult to see people who try to arrive the legal way but get denied, turned around or prosecuted in their country for trying to leave.
There is a problem generalizing all imigrants and saying all their situations are the same.
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When laws aren't enforced are they really laws?
Yup.
The arguement otherwise is simply specious, convenient and self-serving.
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Originally posted by Goomba
Yup.
The arguement otherwise is simply specious, convenient and self-serving.
Allowing laws to go broken and unenforced only begs the question lazs opened this thread with. Enforce them or remove them. To do less compromises all of them.
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Laz to try and make you feel a little better here is a good story for you.
I use to be a shell fisherman for a living, specifically quahogs (hard shell clams for those not from RI) . In the Summer I'd get checked 2 maybe 3 times a week by the DEM officers. Well one day i asked why he would always check me he said " Well, you work much of the same area and you are always legal no paper work for me.". I then told him he should check the Cambodians that were working the shore.
Now here is where it gets good.
Ya see if I were to get caught with undersized quahogs it's a $5 a piece.
the DEM officer walks over to where they have their 5 gal bucket with a towel covering it. It was 2/3 full of Quahogs ALL undersized some as small as your thumbnail. Gets better he asked to see some ID well they are all from out of state. Then he asked to see their permit. Have to buy a permit if you are from out of state. No permit. Now he walks over and looks in their Toyota van he sees another bucket, probable cause . He tells them to open the van all of a sudden no one understands him. He takes out his cuffs and now they understand. Now he is inside the van he finds a net that has holes like a screen . This is totally illegal, holes have to be over 1 inch at that time . Also he finds a bunch of fry of various species.
Well to make it a happy ending the the owner of the car was fined $1500.
They never came back after that.
Ohh the DEM officer asked me if we were even , I told him hell yes.
Bronk
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BlckMgk,
I have great respect for the immigrant experience; I'm second generation All-American myself.
I have a great respect for all those who so love my country that they truly want to be a part of it. I'm honored and proud.
I have no respect, no sympathy and no empathy for those who would spit on the country I love, by stealing from it and screaming about how they deserve to.
I know the process is flawed...which is why I've always supported a healthy debate and reformation of the system.
However...flawed though it may be...a person cannot self-justify a willful dismissal of the law of the land, simply because they find the process not to their liking.
Some will get denied for good reason. Tough.
Some will get denied because there are limits as to how many people we can let in every year; the cow does NOT have endless milk. Again...I'm sorry, but them's the breaks.
Prosecution or persecution in a person's home country for trying to leave? How on God's green earth can that be our problem? How can that be our fault? Every time we stick our noses into another country's business, we get slapped around and criticized all over the world. The American Empire come to interfere again.
I say, if life stinks so bad at home...fix it. Not easy, not painless, not without sacrifice...I don't make any suggestion that it's a quick and simple matter. But, if life stinks at home, it will never, NEVER improve until the nationals of that country decide to improve themselves....and not wait for someone else to do it for them. That's simply how the world works.
There are two choices at home....fix it is one. The other is to declare oneself unwilling and incapable of participating in one's own cultural development, and then run away. And when you've run somewhere else, cry about how your rights are being violated, and what you deserve to be given...without earning a damned thing. Of course, then we see those self-same people decide that, while their own culture isn't worth fighting for at home, they cannot live without that same culture when they come here. No assimilation, for generations!! Just move into the isolated enclave neighborhood with others from their home country, then refuse to become part of this one.
I do not...and would never...lump all immigrants together. To do so would make me the worst form of hypocrite. I'm only here because my family DID immigrate to the US, and they did assimilate. Quite proudly, I'm glad to say.
No, I have no issue with any decent human being who so loves what my country stands for that they would leave behind all that they know and are familiar with, to be a part of what we are.
If we dimiss the lunatic fringe, I think the whole issue pivots on one, fundamental operative word.
Illegal.
(PS...any part of this which sounded like it was personal to BlckMgk was not intended that way. Speaking in the generic, as it were.)
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luk,
You're right.
Failure to enforce existing laws is the beginning of all this. The ability to enforce said laws is one of the fulcrums of the whole debate.
Reform of inappropriate or dated laws, and effectual enforcement of laws which are constructive are the two keys to resolution.
However, inefficient enforcement does not, can not, justify criminal behavior. Ever.
Getting away with it, 'cause the cops didn't see ya', don't make your crime legal.
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Ask yourself this question.....WHY ARE IMMAGRATION LAWS NOT ENFORCED?????? Does'nt anyone see the underlying resons??
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Cops not seeing you isn't the problem here as I know you know Goomba. Our government has chosen to ignore it's own law. Lawless governments tend to collapse or be overthrown. Just a matter of time.
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Just making an example, luk. I do get what your intent is.
However...we cannot take a lack of enforcement as evidence of some nefarious plot, nor as an omen of impending collapse.
It's simply a matter of INS and US Border Patrol being wildly underfunded, undermanned and underequipped. And THAT's simply because (IMO), prior to this last coupla weeks, immigration reform was NOT a top priority in the federal budgeting process. No glamor, no glory and few votes in border security.
You'll also find that education, art, music, science and mathematics are also grossly underfunded. But Congress got a raise. THAT's the meat of the problem, IMO.
There are many, many underenforced laws around. None of them fortells doom, just a matter of money and priorities.
Ever been speeding, and didn't get caught? Yup.
Does it mean the ultimate collapse of Western civilization? Nope.
I can't agree that this particular flaw makes ours a lawless government.
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I didn't mean to imply that a collapse of our government was imminent. However, no taxation without representation was the warcry of a revolution not so long ago or so far away. If our government won't enforce our laws then how are we today much different from those rallying behind that warcry a little more than a couple of centuries ago?
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I know this is mainly about illegal immigration, but could you imagine if they randomly started putting drug sniffing dogs at every entrance to a major concert? Don't you think there is reasonable cause? Could you imagine the band taking stage and seeing 4 people in the audience?
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Originally posted by tapakeg
I know this is mainly about illegal immigration, but could you imagine if they randomly started putting drug sniffing dogs at every entrance to a major concert? Don't you think there is reasonable cause? Could you imagine the band taking stage and seeing 4 people in the audience?
I suspect you'd be opposed to that sort of "enforcement"?
I suppose many laws aren't strictly enforced because not everyone agrees with them. Guess that's more likely the larger the body of people that you apply a particular law to. Seems like a good reason to have few federal laws with the bulk of them being local. That at least allows a person a greater chance of finding a community that seems reasonable to them.
Border security seems to me one of the few legitimate areas to cover with federal law.
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Originally posted by lukster
I suppose many laws aren't strictly enforced because not everyone agrees with them.
agree or not, they are laws, and that has nothing to do with them. ask ANY law enforcement agent.
we simply can not afford to enforce them on the scale of the example above. imagine 2000 people being arrested on minor drug charges at a large concert:
thats 2000 people that need to be transported to a police station. 2000 people that need to be booked, checked for warrants, finger printed, photographed, cited, then depending on the charge, released.
now consider the man house involved in this. now consider the time it would take to finish the job. you'd have to feed them. ALL of them even the ones finished in 5 minutes, because of equal rights. the ones that have to wait 12 hours need to be fed possibly twice. then there's facilities for all of them. i know the Milwaukee county klink doesnt have enough space to take in 2000 arrests in a single night.
also add the manpower to control the crowd at the concert for the possible riot at so many being arrested.
now add the court costs, and man hours there resolving these 2000 cases.
all that for 1 concert. there's 52 weeks in the year, and in some major cities there is a concert a few times a week.
imagine the local taxpayers being told they are quadrupling the police and safety budget for the next year to enact this.
there is no "like" or "dislike" about the laws, there is logistics in everything though. some things are just not possible in a logical sence.
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why dont you invite them onto your trailer park for a peaceful protest and shoot them lazs? isnt that what you do to people you dont like over there?
if they are on your property isnt it legal? :D
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1. okay. let them in to work for a year or two. cool.
2. but make sure that thier documentation is not easilly reproducable.
3. issue drivers licenses, but not the same one that you issue to US citizens. (duh) thier work visa experation date should be concurrent with the experation date on said license. (green strip across the top perhaps?)
4. legislate heavy penalties and fines for those who hire undocumented workers.
5. allow companies the choice to keep thier best workers on for a longer duration by establishing sponsorship quotas for companies which are based on size and number or employees. something like, you have 100 employees and manuel is just too ninja to let go and he runs a crew like nobodies business. great, he and one more guy get to stay, but the rest gots to go.
BECAUSE
6. we are going to have to enforce it like someone raped our sister every time there is a violation.
in other words, joe blow has a company and is using either undocumented or overextended workers. joe blow gets jail time or joe blow loses his company. period.
how many illegals would be here if none would dare harbor them illegally?
beyond these points, i feel that anyone who wishes to stay longer should either be an essential (which could help us as we could always stand to increase our talent pool) or they should be required to apply for citizenship within a certain time frame. at least then they will have an opportunity to begin working on a sense of belonging and ownership in thier chosen home.
otherwise.
get back jojo.
88
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YO 88!!!
how ya been?
enable PM in your profile dude :aok
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hola amigo!
como estas usted?
must vamanos as i have to get to the misses pronto villa.
will do so upon my return.
(if i am late she will deport me to the nearest hotel room.)
88
(tip toe...tip toe...)
:cool:
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Its all about $. One way or another, it always comes back to $.
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Ok... so as to make this clear..
I do not blame the illegal aliens... I would probly do exactly the same in their place.
Nope... the only real solution is to put the employer in prison... we are talking mandatory prison sentance for first offence... huge fines too.
Once no employer will hire illegals... you won't need a wall at the border and the border patrol will be more than adequate to keep out the real criminals.
This is the only solution that will work... so long as people will hire them the illegals will come.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so as to make this clear..
I do not blame the illegal aliens... I would probly do exactly the same in their place.
Nope... the only real solution is to put the employer in prison... we are talking mandatory prison sentance for first offence... huge fines too.
Once no employer will hire illegals... you won't need a wall at the border and the border patrol will be more than adequate to keep out the real criminals.
This is the only solution that will work... so long as people will hire them the illegals will come.
oh... and I have never been a real fan of laws in any case... if I like it I will obey it at the time... if it is convienient.
damn... somehow I quoted myself... oh well who better to quote I ask ya?
lazs
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Illeagals should be given 1 month starting say... May 1st to get the hell out. If they are not out by the end of that month they're rounded up and excecuted. One of two basic choices. They can stay and keep killing our country, in which case, they will die. Or they can simply go back home.
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morph... I would be more inclined to have an open season on the employers... Shoot the bastards who are really killing the country...
Those who employ illegal aliens.
lazs
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True. That would be the better hunt. Use the illegals for target practice.
The more that I think about this... Grab a land rover, pack it up with some rifles and ammo, and charge people to drive them around a city while they "plink". :)
It would be just like a safari.
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What is sad is that if all these illegals get in under the a new law, then all who were trying to get in legally get screwed and the message is sent: "don't try to do it legally or you get screwed, sneak in and protest."
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This may be the first time I've ever seen Lazs suggest that the free market on its own isn't going to fix a problem. Most amazingly, he wants the GOVERNMENT to do something about it (fine/jail the employers).
Is it snowing in hell?
J_A_B
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morph.... wouldn't it be better to shoot the trophy wife of some senator who had hired "Juanita" for her maid than to shoot the maid?
If you shoot the maid it will just cause the trophy wife to get another one and not have to pay this weeks salary.
lazs
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I've mentioned this before, for most every California police dept it is strictly against policy to assist in any immigration issue.
The INS raided a "slave" house, we stood down a block away so as not to even give the impression we were assisting in any way.
LAPD as well as Santa Monica PD have unwritten policies to turn a blind eye to minor infractions by "migrant workers"... things we'd call quality of life issues like urinating/drinking in public.
Why?, because most of the time they have no address or offer generic names like "Jose Lopez" and its a waste of resources for such minor things... thats the excuse anyway.
Santa Monica has an exploding homeless population for just this reason. The migrants, esp around here in North Hollywood, are BOLD mofos who will look you in the eye and piss on your flowers as they drink a beer.... they know LAPD either wont bother showing up, or just herd them along to the next block to become someone elses problem.
Thanks to years and years of the so called nut less "leaders" shaping policing policies that let these people walk around with near impunity, they have been emboldened to scream from the building tops "I'm illegal, you OWE me, and F your US laws" while waiving the Mexican Flag.
If you research some of these groups, which it was my job to do for a short while, you'll find most all of the Mexican centric ones have an agenda to return Texas and parts of California to Mexico, an unconditional opening of the border... things like that.... yet our politicians take them seriously.
You'd also be shocked, or not, to find out where they get some of their political donations from: So American drug cartels, MS13, various radical, even "narco terrorist" organizations who would absolutely love to see their "mules" gain easier access to the US.
I have accepted long ago immigration issues related to Mexico et al are a complete joke, its turned places like Los Angeles into "home plate"... if you can run around the bases and break enough laws to slide home, the LA leaders yell "SAFE!" like an umprie, pat you on the back and look the other way.
Meanwhile by friend Jim from Canada waited 8 years, paid thousands in lawyer fees and jumped through 100 hoops to become a US citizen.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Illeagals should be given 1 month starting say... May 1st to get the hell out. If they are not out by the end of that month they're rounded up and excecuted. One of two basic choices. They can stay and keep killing our country, in which case, they will die. Or they can simply go back home.
:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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Originally posted by J_A_B
This may be the first time I've ever seen Lazs suggest that the free market on its own isn't going to fix a problem. Most amazingly, he wants the GOVERNMENT to do something about it (fine/jail the employers).
Is it snowing in hell?
J_A_B
it must be. lasz and i agree on something.
you won't solve the problem if you don't punish those who do the hiring.
and when i say punish, i mean punish. no nancy BS.
jail. huge fines.
it is the only way.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
I've mentioned this before, for most every California police dept it is strictly against policy to assist in any immigration issue.
The INS raided a "slave" house, we stood down a block away so as not to even give the impression we were assisting in any way.
LAPD as well as Santa Monica PD have unwritten policies to turn a blind eye to minor infractions by "migrant workers"... things we'd call quality of life issues like urinating/drinking in public.
Why?, because most of the time they have no address or offer generic names like "Jose Lopez" and its a waste of resources for such minor things... thats the excuse anyway.
Santa Monica has an exploding homeless population for just this reason. The migrants, esp around here in North Hollywood, are BOLD mofos who will look you in the eye and piss on your flowers as they drink a beer.... they know LAPD either wont bother showing up, or just herd them along to the next block to become someone elses problem.
Thanks to years and years of the so called nut less "leaders" shaping policing policies that let these people walk around with near impunity, they have been emboldened to scream from the building tops "I'm illegal, you OWE me, and F your US laws" while waiving the Mexican Flag.
If you research some of these groups, which it was my job to do for a short while, you'll find most all of the Mexican centric ones have an agenda to return Texas and parts of California to Mexico, an unconditional opening of the border... things like that.... yet our politicians take them seriously.
You'd also be shocked, or not, to find out where they get some of their political donations from: So American drug cartels, MS13, various radical, even "narco terrorist" organizations who would absolutely love to see their "mules" gain easier access to the US.
I have accepted long ago immigration issues related to Mexico et al are a complete joke, its turned places like Los Angeles into "home plate"... if you can run around the bases and break enough laws to slide home, the LA leaders yell "SAFE!" like an umprie, pat you on the back and look the other way.
Meanwhile by friend Jim from Canada waited 8 years, paid thousands in lawyer fees and jumped through 100 hoops to become a US citizen.
So you saying we should fight not with illegal alliens but with drug dealers and all junkies around, rich and poor.
NO drugs mean no crime, and no illegals.
So better spend all this money for fight with weeds users then for building fences.Using and possesing drugs should be punished as same as murder .
I like lazs idea bout punishing employers, maybe we should shoot them as spy's, cuz they are like treaitors.
Dead penality for employers who hire illegal, also jail time for all who know or support this kind of actioons.
If we can't fight with people who cross border , lets fight with those who can pay for their actions.
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Of course punishing the employers was passed in the House. I'm not real clear what happened to it after that. Was that the same bill but radically altered that just failed in the Senate?
Putting more laws on the books that we ignore and don't enforce isn't the answer. Putting troops and/or fences on the border is a good start.
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as i remember correct its 3000$ fine for hiring illegal worker, thats nothing
usual employer earn dayly not less then 3 times he pay to illegal worker.
3000$ is nothing for bussines.
also its enforced not by IRS or INS.
I heard about guy who hired 17 illegals in his machine shop (he had 2 of them in one area), they cough 15 of them, 2 escape.
Guy paid 50k$ fine and move his bussines to nevada, living 5 fellows citizens out of work. He still have 2 shop's, one small to recive orders in old place and secound one in nevada, where all work is done. thx good he not move his bussines to china.
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But I live very close to Laz here in California, and in my 38 years of life, I have seen a large difference in the types of jobs the illegal workforce is used to accomplish.
No one really cared when most illegals were out in the fields bent over for 12-14 hours a day picking produce for a fraction of the cost a legal citizen would accept. Now they are doing skilled labor jobs for very cheap rates, and it's putting many citizens out of work. Roofing, landscape installations, masonry, general construction, sheetrock & plastering/stucco and restaraunt jobs. These are now the most common types of jobs I see illegal (mexican) workers doing. While there seems to be an obvious difference in the QUALITY of work done, many people will only look at the bottom line = DOLLARS.
I have seen things gradually change. It seems like now that they are getting into the higher paying types of work and taking jobs that legal citizens would actually do, NOW it is now a problem.
I think Laz is right as far as the best solution, is to punish (very harshly) the employers of said illegals, but where down the progressive ladder of desirable types of work do we enforce these laws. Punish the small farmer for employing known illegals, and his farm will go belly up. But take a major contractor with hundreds or even thousands of illegals on the payroll......
I don't kow where the line is exactly, but I know my point is valid.
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I know that there is a lucrative business in providing said illegals with fake documentation which they use to gain employment. Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.
If we really want to deal with this problem, we MUST address the fake documentation industry. Yes, at this time it is in fact an "industry". This industry will get an even bigger boom if we lay down and enforce huge penalties on employers. Any employer penalty laws must be accompanied by large penalties for fake documentation manufactures. IMO-
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Originally posted by Atoon
Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.
Yes, it is their responsibility.
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Originally posted by Atoon
I know that there is a lucrative business in providing said illegals with fake documentation which they use to gain employment. Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.
If we really want to deal with this problem, we MUST address the fake documentation industry. Yes, at this time it is in fact an "industry". This industry will get an even bigger boom if we lay down and enforce huge penalties on employers. Any employer penalty laws must be accompanied by large penalties for fake documentation manufactures. IMO-
we need to make documents with the same technologies that
we are using on modern forms of identifications, including magetic strips and embedded dna strands.
pretending that you dont know that juan gomez who doesnt speak a lick of english is just plain frigging illegal is just a pathetic excuse no matter how you slice it.
it IS thier responsibility.
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Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.
Actually, it is.
Hiring illegals is illegal, and compliance with the law is the responsibility of the business.
Any business which chooses to comply with the law has no trouble establishing the background of an employee, within reason. Such data is easily available on the Internet, and is used routinely by thousands of businesses.
Not only is it the company's responsibility to not hire a known or suspected illegal, it's their proper duty to report said individual(s) to INS. We all know nothing would happen (right now), but the duties and responsibilities don't change.
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jab... nope.... I am not asking for the government to do anything. I am telling you what will solve the problem with the least government interferance in everyones personal lives.
You all want to build walls and hire thousands upon thousands of government empoyees...
Exactly what the government wants you to think has to be done... when in reality...
The whole problem is that they are not doing their jog... it is not legal to hire illegals.
My solution would not grow the government and it would punish the people who are hurting the rest of us.
My alternate solution would be to open the borders and no one pay taxes or obey laws.
That would be ideal.... what do I care if illegals come here if I don't have to school em or pay their medical bills?
I doubt that will happen so the next best and least intrusive solution is to jail the lawbreakers that are the biggest cause of the problem...
The employers..
You guys who want a bigger police force are playing right into the governments hand.... they will be glad to take your money and grow their departments and ask for more and more every year while the "problem" doesn't get any better (even more reason for them to have a bigger budget next year)
wake up mushheads.
lazs
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Agreed. Jail employers.. manditory company crippling fines. Make it more expensive to hire illegals than it is to get legals. Start with manditory jailing of Politicians that have illegals on their household staffs.
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Just seems unlikely to me that we'll suddenly start enforcing harsher laws like putting employers in jail when we won't even enforce the laws currently on the books. Would it solve the problem of illegal immigration? No doubt. Will it happen? Much doubt.
If most Americans would support this type of law as I believe they would then why wait for Congress or law enforcement to make it happen. Why not exercise your rights and boycott those that use illegal laborers?
I still say we need better physical border security now.
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it is much easier to punish a few thousand employers who have a huge financial stake in not getting caught (they can't flee back across the border) than to try to punish 12-20 million people who have nothing and nothing to lose.
you put one roofing contractor in prison and you won't see another illegal in construction anywhere in that area.
sheesh.... build 12' high walls and all you do is increase the market for 13' ladders. tell the government you want em to try to stop an unstopable flow from getting in and they will be more than happy to grow 20% every year in budget and whine for more money while getting absofrigginglutely.... nothing done but build a bigger staff off your money.
start jailing employers and yu will get em snitching each other off till there is no problem.
How many crimes do you think cops solve? about zero... somebody snitches somebody off. that's the way it works.
once it starts it will snowball... the guy scared to hire illegals is gonna have to snitch off the guy who does if he want's to compete and...
citizens will want to know too..
There should be no cutoff point... you get a mandatory 1 year sentance no matter if you hire 100 illegals or one maid in your beverly hills home.
If a contractor did the hiring... he goes to jail not you.
lazs
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Sure, what you suggest did pass in the house and would solve the problem. I suspect the reason it will never pass the house, senate and president is that too many do not want those already here to leave. I'm not happy with that but I'll be even less happy if we don't stop more from coming.
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Heard on the news last night that $400,000 was the cost for planning and staffing, setup, etc. for security for the rally in Dallas this past weekend.
Paid for by the tax payer. See anything wrong with a city spending this much in a place where some of our war veterans are living in cardboard boxs under overpasses?
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If it Is in fact the employer resposibilty to verify SSN's and other documentation, no one is making the do so. I know all the major restaurant chains in my area have multiple illegals, I'm sure they provided fake documentation, and they got the job- no problem. Happens daily, and these are nation wide chains like applebees & red lobster.
I guess Lazis right, there should be no line. If your caught hiring an illegal, you should be locked up amd fined. I just worry about the price of veggies and such skyrocketing because of increased labor costs. Like I said before, no one really seemed to care when they were just out in the fields picking for a fraction of the cost a citizen would accept.
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let me tell you about "the price of veggies and such"
it is silly to use that scare tactic... it has been used over and over... some of you aren't old enough or can't rememeber the tactic.
It was used in the brasero and UFW wars.... tomatoes would be $5 apiece!!!!!!
bull.... instead of 40 mexican sorters we now have 2 on the same rig and we use lasers to tell ripe from unripe... other method are used too..
upshot is... no one does the backbreaking and low paying work anymore. everyone gained by less available work force.
kids might have to get off the computer and work at landscaping jobs big deal.
Nope... the real solution is as I say but the government has no stake in a real solution and they are making you musheads follow right allong with what they want.... to grow themselves and get more money.
The government loves problems that you all beg them to solve at any cost.
lazs
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So how do we "make" our government listen to us lazs? Letters seem to have no effect. I believe our politicians already know what most of us want, it's just not what they want.
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I think the republicans are pretty smart to make an issue of our immigration problems as we begin gearing up for our next presidential election. This could become the deciding issue easily overshadowing the war in Iraq.
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Ya'll can whine and moan about it all you want, but nothing is going to change.
Politicians won’t crack down on the employers because that’s who they go to for campaign donations. As long as employers hire illegals, they’ll keep coming. The most you may see is some vanity law to make the anti-illegals think they’ve achieved something, which wont be enforced. It’s already illegal for them to come here they way they do, and it’s not stopping them. A new law would be like adding more gun control to keep the criminals from owning guns.
The other big threat to the economy isn’t even illegal. It’s outsourcing the mid level jobs overseas. This has been killing the middle class for a long time. Once again you have business owners (or stock holders) and politicians to thank for it. I know people who were making six figure, or near, incomes that are now living off food stamps or flipping burgers because there is no Tech Sector job market. The last Tech Sector job I had, which I was laid off from, has had the entire department outsourced. Eight thousand people were laid off at the same time as I. Within about two months of having the CEO speak at a massive meeting telling people “Don’t worry about your job.”
You can also thank outsourcing at least partially for the gas prices at the pumps. Now that overseas economies are thriving, they’re spending more. Buying more luxury items like cars and petroleum based products. Guess who this hits again… the middle class.
If you want to effect some sort of change, you’re going to have to start at the top. Put people in office that care more about your welfare than their own pockets.
Good luck having that happen.
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Originally posted by Goomba
BlckMgk,
I have great respect for the immigrant experience; I'm second generation All-American myself.
I have a great respect for all those who so love my country that they truly want to be a part of it. I'm honored and proud.
I have no respect, no sympathy and no empathy for those who would spit on the country I love, by stealing from it and screaming about how they deserve to.
I know the process is flawed...which is why I've always supported a healthy debate and reformation of the system.
However...flawed though it may be...a person cannot self-justify a willful dismissal of the law of the land, simply because they find the process not to their liking.
Some will get denied for good reason. Tough.
Some will get denied because there are limits as to how many people we can let in every year; the cow does NOT have endless milk. Again...I'm sorry, but them's the breaks.
Prosecution or persecution in a person's home country for trying to leave? How on God's green earth can that be our problem? How can that be our fault? Every time we stick our noses into another country's business, we get slapped around and criticized all over the world. The American Empire come to interfere again.
I say, if life stinks so bad at home...fix it. Not easy, not painless, not without sacrifice...I don't make any suggestion that it's a quick and simple matter. But, if life stinks at home, it will never, NEVER improve until the nationals of that country decide to improve themselves....and not wait for someone else to do it for them. That's simply how the world works.
There are two choices at home....fix it is one. The other is to declare oneself unwilling and incapable of participating in one's own cultural development, and then run away. And when you've run somewhere else, cry about how your rights are being violated, and what you deserve to be given...without earning a damned thing. Of course, then we see those self-same people decide that, while their own culture isn't worth fighting for at home, they cannot live without that same culture when they come here. No assimilation, for generations!! Just move into the isolated enclave neighborhood with others from their home country, then refuse to become part of this one.
I do not...and would never...lump all immigrants together. To do so would make me the worst form of hypocrite. I'm only here because my family DID immigrate to the US, and they did assimilate. Quite proudly, I'm glad to say.
No, I have no issue with any decent human being who so loves what my country stands for that they would leave behind all that they know and are familiar with, to be a part of what we are.
If we dimiss the lunatic fringe, I think the whole issue pivots on one, fundamental operative word.
Illegal.
(PS...any part of this which sounded like it was personal to BlckMgk was not intended that way. Speaking in the generic, as it were.)
^^^^what he said...That was a great post.
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
Thing is, these people WANT TO WORK. They come to america not to steal but to make a living and help themselves and their families. Saddest thing about this situation is that there ARE US citizens who ARE citizens in the USA and don't do **** but collect welfare and sit on their tulips all day. Those are the people we should be getting rid of.
You guys disgust me.
Fine if they want to work let them come here LEGALLY and work.
Otherwise get the hell out.
People that want to give these illegals a free pass when others had to pay their dues to become legal, dusgust me.
I have no problem with people that come into my house that I let in.
But I get just a little upset when they sneak in uninvited no matter how good their intentions are.
As for the US citizens who are here legally and refuse to work. As far as Im concerned. Make THEM do all these so called jobs americans dont want as a requirement to receive Welfare. And if they refuse.
Let em starve.
Hungar is a great motivator
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I didn't intend it to be taken as any sort of a scare tactic, In fact, I'm the type of guy who prefers dogs that don't bark, but just rip yer arse to shreds if you cross their line ( I have 2 like that). Scaretactics just aren't my style.
I meant it as a serious possible reprocussion to enforcing imigration laws. Now that I put more thought into it, I would happily pay .30 more for a tomatoe if average hourly wage were increased 1. per hour.
What I'm trying to say is, I agree with you :aok
Now if we could only get it to happen.:D
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thank you... but... jigs is correct.
The government will be faced with three choices.
it can build a big fence and hire thousands of enforcement (more goverment police) officers and an army of buerocrats to run them and their staff and whine for a bigger budget evey year as an excuse to why they are inefective (imagine an ineffective government program?)
or... they can simply say.... there is no problem... every criminal illegal is now legal.... end of problem there are no illegals except those that continue to come over. The mind boggles at how much the amnesty will cost with all these new minimum wage non english speaking new "Americans" all wanting their piece of the pie... social security is for everyone remember... even if they never paid in a dime.
last.... my idea. it needs to be two fold... some sort of tamper proof ID and some sort of federal background check exactly like for firearms.... takes only a few hours or... maybe a day...."ok..we will run your ID and if you check out report for work in 24 hours"
any employer caught under my plan will have a mandatory 1 year sentance...
not much chance of this happening.... not enough in it for the socialists. and as jigs says... the employers vote. That is the perception anyway.... but... do the real employers want to hire illegals? are they doing it on purpose? are they just going along with the flow and, are the real big employers really victims? they can't discriminate under current law so they gotta hire spanish speakers.
I say that we should write our represenitives. I say that the only way to stop it is to stop the employer. You don't stop drugs in a school by pretending you don't see the drug dealer and then arresting every student that he talks to.
lazs
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let me say.... If I were a mexican with no real chance to get ahead.... I would be an illegal too.
And why not? family and self comes first. I would say...."If I am breaking the law..... then how come as soon as I cross the border I can go anywhere in the U.S. and get a job?"
and..."if I get cought... no one cares... nothing will happen to me"
but.... if more and more mexicans came home and said.... "I couldn't get a job... no one would hire me. They are putting gringos in jail who hire us"
How would that be?
you want to write to your representives.... copy the above and send that.
lazs
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I have to agree that punishing the hiring managers and companies is probably the single most effective deterrent we have...provided that significant jail time and back-breaking fines are mandatory. Companies should be very, very leery of hiring anyone who's credentials are questionable.
If we eliminate the ability to run away from problems at home, people have to stay home and make it better.
(PS...TY RedTop. )
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I have seen the excuse here and in other threads that the illegals are doing jobs at a wage that the citizens would not. I have also seen it said they are doing jobs that the citizen would not do period.
It is true that most U.S. citizens would not do some of the jobs at the wages being paid the illegals. Most working folks ask for a fair wage for an honest days work, nothing more.
So.....the employer feels he is beating the system and increasing his profits by hiring the illegals at a low wage. In fact what he is doing is slowing chipping away at the industry in which he is involved. He is also promoting inflation and screwing up the economy in general.
The illegal will come here, draw the low wages, live on very little while here, then either send the wages home or return home with them himself for the most part. Those low wages drawn here equal to a gold mine in their home country. It takes the dollars that he earned out of the economy`s formula and takes jobs away from the citizen when a fair wage will not be paid to them for the same jobs.
By not enforcing the laws that are in place to prevent the hiring of illegals, we are in fact, cutting off our own nose to spite our face.
Enforce the laws dealing with hiring of the illegals, make jobs available to the citizen at a fair wage. A win-win situation for our country. Excess jobs,if any, could be filled by those from other countries filing for and receiving a work permit legaly obtained and easily checked out.
Then border security could be devoted, in the most part, to those abroad who wish to aatack our country and to those who wish to smuggle, etc.
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You guys did hear the recent cries from the more prominent and vocal democrats about how "cruel and mean" the recent house bill was right? How punishing those "helping" illegal aliens was immoral. Of course Hillary got in one the act stating that the "good samaritan" and even Jesus would have been jailed. The bill was aimed at doing exactly what lazs is supporting, punishing employers of illegals. I know I'm repeating myself but that bill passed in house. It's the senate and possibly the president we need to work on and/or replace.
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Of course the democrats know that punishing the employer would work. They don't even claim that it won't work.
That is exactly why they are against it. A simple plan that punishes the people responsible and does not grow the government and, even more important, grow the democrat socialist voter base....is the absolute opposite of what the democrats want.
A reall solution is the worst thing that could happen to the democrats.
lazs
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A beginning?
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/14400740.htm