Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on April 11, 2006, 09:09:21 AM
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Don't know how I missed this one till now.
True story about the raid in WWII to rescue 500 prisoners of war that the japs were about to execute in their normal brutal way.
120 army rangers and philipino resistance took on 250 or so japs and rescued 511 prisoners..
Greatest and most sucessful rescue in U.S. history.
lazs
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so did you watch it? was it any good? i heard some not so great stuff about it.
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It's a great story. The planning was brilliant as was the execution of the plan.
The epilogue to that turned out bad for the local habitants, as the Japenese took out their anger on nearby villages. A sad event in an otherwise great operation.
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Ghost Soldiers: The Forgotten Epic Story of World War II's Most Dramatic Mission
Same story (Cabanatuan), different book.
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My son in law's grandfather was rescued at cabanatauan. He was one of the few surviors of the bataan death march. To think that my daughter would have never met her husband... and where my kid would be now...
The boy sez his grandfather was not a particularly happy camper. While very thankful of the Rangers for the effort he's less than charmed by Roosevelt.. feels that the defenders at corregidor were betrayed by washington. Also sez that the cabanatauan raid incensed the japanese and that prisoners in many other regional camps were slaughtered outright as a result.
One thing really hit me though... seems like every vet I ever met that fought the Japanese hates them with a passion. Nope.. thats an understatement. Seems more viscereal than that, even. I can certainly understand the sentiment.
Was the movie a good one Laz? Saw the history channel documentary last year, thought it was pretty good.
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I bought it. Liked it.
It was pretty good. Not overly schmaltzy even though they had to put in a love interest. It would seem, based on the documetary and epilog info that it was pretty close to accurate.
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"U.S. prisoners of war held by the Empire of Japan, 1941-1945 died at a rate exceeding 37% while in captivity. On the other hand, U.S. prisoners of war held captive by Nazi Germany died at a rate of less than 2% while held by the Germans."
I can easily understand the lasting hatred towards Japan from WWII war vets.
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it was good if a little slow at first. In the end in the special features veterans that were pow's and rescuers were interviewed.
They didn't pull any punches. in the movie you could sense that the pow's were not happy with the government and felt abondoned... I think they were trying to get that point across..
also... the inhumanity of the jap was not downplayed. Not many of the real pow's bought the explanation that the jap soldiers were a completely differen race than all the other japs seemed to be after they were defeated.
The brutality was unbelievable but true.
It is hard for me to trust such people.
lazs
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I actually disagree. I believe it was a horribly acted movie, and was almost painful to watch.
The documentaries on the history channel were very nice though.
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One thing really hit me though... seems like every vet I ever met that fought the Japanese hates them with a passion. Nope.. thats an understatement. Seems more viscereal than that, even.
I've only met a couple vets that fought the Japanese and both of them hated the Japanese with a hatred that is indescribable. Otoh, I have met a few vets that fought against the Germans and they didnt feel the same hate towards the Germans.
Wonder why this is?
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Originally posted by Elfie
I've only met a couple vets that fought the Japanese and both of them hated the Japanese with a hatred that is indescribable. Otoh, I have met a few vets that fought against the Germans and they didnt feel the same hate towards the Germans.
Wonder why this is?
I bet it is because the germans treated western POWs better. Sure they executed some here and there but it was not common place.
I have not heard of a case of them seeing how many bones they can break with a rifle butt before the person dies, or chopping off heads for kicks, or live disections, or any of the other brutal things that were common and normal for the Japanese to do to POWs.
It is sad so few know just had bad the Japanese were. They get a free pass from history when they were just as bad as the Nazi's.
Maybe they get the free pass cause we dropped the bomb on them?
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My father-in-law certainly doesn't show any hatred. He is a 'let bygones be bygones' kinda guy I guess. But then again he worked as a prison guard after the war and says nice things about the prisoners too.
He was in the 3rd marines and made 3 landings including a 1st wave assault on Bouganville. He was wounded on Guam.
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I bet it is because the germans treater western POWs better. Sure they executed some here and there but it was not common place.
One of the vets was stationed on a submarine, never fought in land battles etc nor was he a pow but still....the hatred for the Japanese was something you could *feel* emanating from him.
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Part of the reason for people not realising the extent of IJA brutality in WWII is that when you bring it up for discussion, people get all upset and call you racist.
It allways disturbed me that it was fine to call the Nazis the worst scum on earth, but mention the Japanese atrocities and you will get howled down with cries of racist and biggot, or at least that has been my experience.
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Lindberg says he saw some nasty stuff happening in the SWPAC & it wasn't the japanese doing it...but he was flying combat missions there in violation of the geneva conventions....
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the most annoying thing about the movie was that a brit played the American CO. of the pow's his accent was not that bad but bad enough.
Maybe that is the "acting" you are talking about? I am not expert on acting but I felt that all the actors did a pretty decent job except the brit guy and the colonel of the rescuers.
I did not fight the japs but knowing what they did makes me not trust them as a race. I have the feeling that given half a chance they would act exactly the same as they did in WWII. I think every army in WWII is essentialy the same now as it was in WWII.
I do not think that the people in those armies are much different than their modern counterparts.
lazs
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Originally posted by Debonair
Lindberg says he saw some nasty stuff happening in the SWPAC & it wasn't the japanese doing it...but he was flying combat missions there in violation of the geneva conventions....
Lindberg was not on any piece of terrain occupied by the Japanese; ever. If he saw 'nasty stuff', and given that Japanese POW's were not held on american army air bases, what; pray tell is it that he could have 'seen'?
Should also be noted that lindberg was in theatre as a civilian contractor.. his presence in combat was forbidden by Roosevelt since he resigined his commision as an anti-war protestor. Lindberg had pro-nazi inclinations, but had no compunctions with regards to ambushing a Japanese plane and hosing it out of the sky.
Kinda a selective 'anti-war' kinda guy it would seem.
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I drove my grandfather down to palm springs one year for his annual migration. I stayed the night before flying back up and had dinner with him and his brother. I was amazed at how much of the conversation was consumed by hatred for the Japanese. Grandpa was in the mobile artillery in Europe and never went to Japan. I don't know that his brother was in the military at all. I just know you'd swear both of them were on the hill at Iwo.
The only people I've met that hate the Japanese more is virtually every non-japanese person from Asia that I've met.
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we can be comforted by the fact that they have very low opinions of us too.
lazs
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Col. Mucci grew up the town over from me....Part of the highway is named to honor him...yayy
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jap chicks are hot
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Originally posted by lazs2
we can be comforted by the fact that they have very low opinions of us too.
lazs
so do a lotta of our WWII vets. Gramps just looked at me the other night after watching the news... then said: 'Can't say I much like what your generation has done with the place.'
I said: [english accent] 'Wot???.... the curtains??'[/english accent]
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Yea, the Japanese had a pretty brutal culture.
Surrender meant you no longer deserved to be treated with dignity. I can't decide if that means they value human life more or less than we do...
But yea, the Pacific was a nasty place. We thought of the Japanese as being sub-human, and they thought the same thing of us.
The Eastern Front was much the same, the Germans and the Russians went all out at eachother. Russian POWs probably died at a pretty horrific rate in German hands, and I've no doubt that German POWs suffered at the hands of the Russians a lot worse than if they had surrendered to Americans or British.
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It's probably more of a surprise that the westfront was comaratively civil.
anyone have a good idea why.
Because the sides were old chums from WWI?
Because the war started with a massive prisoner exchange?
Geneva conventions?
Nobody could bring themselves to get that upset over France?
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If I had to guess I'd say a mutual appreciation of the sameness. Germans and British both saw their opponent as "civilised Europeans". I imagine that the Germans had a similar opinion of us, although I've read on multiple occasions they were leery of blacks. The Nazi's had filled the Germans up with so much propoganda about the Soviets / Slavic people that they just despised them.
In some parts of the USSR, the Germans were actually welcomed as liberators until the SS went into their "kill the .. well, everyone" routine.
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My Grandfather was in the Royal Marines and was involved in the prisoner rescue operations in South East Asia at the end of the war. He would never talk about the details but he went to his grave with a bitter hatred of the Japanese.
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MY Grandfather passed away in March of 1998. He was in the 6th Marine Division and hated the Japanese with a passion. If we went to a Chinese Restaurant, he'd order a Burger or steak in protest.
His hatred was also equally as vile when FDR was mentioned. He never forgave FDR for splitting up the Marines (3 Div's in the ETO, and 3 in the PTO). I still crack up thinking about the "Gentleman I can one day onbly hope to be", but man he would get enraged. I mentioned Teddy Roosevelt, and he started up, but realized what I said, and apologized, LMFAO.
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. He never forgave FDR for splitting up the Marines (3 Div's in the ETO, and 3 in the PTO).
I could be wrong, but I am fairly sure that no Marine division saw any action in Europe during WW2. The closest the Marines came was Iceland and that I think was a regiment.
In fact I think I read a quote some where that said that Marshal outright said "no Marine would fight in europe in WW2 if he had anything to say about it". Or something close to that.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I could be wrong, but I am fairly sure that no Marine division saw any action in Europe during WW2. The closest the Marines came was Iceland and that I think was a regiment.
In fact I think I read a quote some where that said that Marshal outright said "no Marine would fight in europe in WW2 if he had anything to say about it". Or something close to that.
Upon further research, Marines indeed fought in North Africa and Europe. My "grandpa exaggerated" then, however, he always said "Splitting them up, only prolonged the PTO."
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Upon further research, Marines indeed fought in North Africa and Europe. My "grandpa exaggerated" then, however, he always said "Splitting them up, only prolonged the PTO."
Interesting, what are your sources I would love to read about it.
Out of curiosity I picked up my copy of :
The U.S. Marine Corps Story
By J.Robert Moskin
The only thing I can find so far on Marines in Europe is on page 124 saying
"The Bitterness simmered for a generation among many of the Army's highest leaders and even helped to keep the Marine Corp out of Europe in World War 2"
My Guidebook for Marines only mentions the Pacific in its history of WW2 as well.
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How about the fact that the Germans declared war then attacked U.S. .
Unlike the Japs who sneak attacked then declared war.
My grandad was in WWII also he had no problems with the Germans after the war. But he stated the above as one reason why he still hated the japs.
Bronk
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It is difficult for me to say that the japs that fought us in WWII are not the same people that are living there now. I believe that given half a chance they would act exactly the same.
despite any weepy rolex samari post.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
It is difficult for me to say that the japs that fought us in WWII are not the same people that are living there now. I believe that given half a chance they would act exactly the same.
despite any weepy rolex samari post.
lazs
I agree, all the people from the nations that fought WW2, may think they have come a long way, but we have not.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
jap chicks are hot
Indeed.
I rented this movie. I had put the kids to bed and was relaxing and watching it in my bedroom.
I didn't know it but my younger son has walked into the room and had very quietly got up on my bed without me knowing it. Then the scene came on where the Japanese put the prisoners into the bunker and poured gas on it and then lit it up.
My son then piped up "They are getting burned daddy!"
I just about jumped out of my skin because he scared the heck out of me and then quickly shut off the movie. My son was somewhat traumatised by what he saw so I sat him down and tried my best to explain to him that although it was a movie it was based on true events. I told him that war was a very bad thing and that hatred makes people do some very nasty things.
The next night he woke up screaming. Poor kid was shaking like a leaf. His mother couldn't comfort him and he insisted that I lie down with him and "tell him about war". Tough subject to try and teach a five year old.
He only did this once so hopefully I said the right things....dunno.
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Damn... don't envy you the shock of that; kids are very impressionable at that age.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
MY Grandfather passed away in March of 1998. He was in the 6th Marine Division and hated the Japanese with a passion. If we went to a Chinese Restaurant, he'd order a Burger or steak in protest.
typo ?
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Originally posted by straffo
typo ?
Reminds me of a scene in Stalingrad (movie)
Rollo gets a letter from his wife telling him that his wife is having an affair with a French POW. He gets really annoyed and when talking to one of the other guys in his platoon says "Just you wait. I'm gonna kill those Russian ***tards" His friend then says "But he was a Frenchman." Rollo responds "I don't give a *****".:rofl
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Was Stalingrad that really bad sniper movie?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Was Stalingrad that really bad sniper movie?
No..that was Enemy at the Gates.
Stalingrad was an excellent movie. The same guys that did Das Boot made it.
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Ahh ok, I will have to look for it.
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Originally posted by straffo
typo ?
Negative, after the Surrender, he was one of many that spent well into 1946 under the "Occupation of China" for "rounding up the Holdouts". He got treated like watermelon by the Chinese. So again, no typo.
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I finally got to see this movie. Good call, Lasz. Best war movie I've seen in a while.
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According to Fly Boys (the fairly recent book about US airmen who were captured by the Japanese) in the Russo-Japanese War and in WW1 Japanese treatment of POWs was reasonably humane. The author attributed the change in behavior to the ultra-nationalist cult that took over between the wars.
When I got my concealed carry permit, the police instructor asked if anyone in the class had served in the Pacific in WW2. When no one indicated that they had, he said that he always asked that because people who had were very difficult to instruct on the concept of a "reasonable" use of force. Pacific vets apparently moved very quickly up the ladder to "exterminate".
Since in Fly Boys a number of the prisoners were not only tortured but executed and partially eaten, I guess you can't really blame the vets.