Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Greebo on April 12, 2006, 10:43:05 AM
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I've uploaded another C-47 skin to The Skin Department (http://www.ah-skins.com/index.php). This one is an IJNAF Showa L2D "Tabby", basically a license produced version of the Douglas aircraft.
I've had a lot of trouble finding any good information on this aircraft, just some poor quality photos in books and on the net. I've based this skin on the plastic kit photo below as it was the only source to show any markings, but there is nothing to say which squadron it is from, or where it was based.
Does anyone have anything better than the stuff below on the Showa? Preferably a photo or a good profile of a Showa with squadron markings shown.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/sc1.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/showal2dplastickit.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/showal2d-4photo.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/cutawaypainting.jpg)
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Nice, Greebo. :)
Any word on whether this will be accepted for MA?
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Well Skuzzy accepted my Lisunov Li-2 for the MA and the 487 L2Ds built saw a lot of service, so I don't see the substitution itself being a problem. I'm more concerned about the lack of good information I've got on the skin.
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:eek: :O looks awesome almost thought it was a deffrent plane , great job:aok :cool:
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Was just talking about this plane/skin in another thread. Hope it is accepted.
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fantastic greebo! :D great skin choice for the goon.
if theres a black p38J with no historical accuracy and a AVG p40E with brit camo even though all AVG p40E's were olive drab theres no reason to not accept an addequately researched obscure yet very useful aircraft that would be fantastic and well recieved by IJA/IJN fans and great for scenarios.
also that pic is not of a plastic model its of a 3d model made by an outstanding 3d artist that is well known for historical and technical accuracy so if thats how he painted his IJA L2D id say its good enough :D
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if theres a black p38J with no historical accuracy and a AVG p40E with brit camo even though all AVG p40E's were olive drab theres no reason to not accept an addequately researched obscure yet very useful aircraft that would be fantastic and well recieved by IJA/IJN fans and great for scenarios.
There's plenty of screwed up LW planes as well. For example all the 109F-4 skins in AH are F-2s. Despite the F, the F-2 and F-2 aren't the same and imho not even close enough to pretend they are.
I remember way back when HTC announced the skins. Pyro said they wouldn't except odd ball skins (like the pink polka-dotted B-24 etc..) However, he also said he was looking forward to Li-2 and Tabby skins for the DC-3. If you want I can quote those posts. Unfortunately, Skuzzy (or whoever) relies on the information the skinner supplies, so if the skinner is wrong or he uses a historically incorrect, or questionable, or out of date sources he can squeeze his work into the game.
FYI, that Tabby looks great..!
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Thanks for the kind words guys. I'm going to tinker with this one a bit more than submit it. Think I'll do a USN one next, with the dark blue, mid blue and white scheme.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Unfortunately, Skuzzy (or whoever) relies on the information the skinner supplies, so if the skinner is wrong or he uses a historically incorrect, or questionable, or out of date sources he can squeeze his work into the game.
FYI: Pyro uses the supplied information to expedite looking it up and verifying the skin. And we will accept skins close to the same model when we have no intention of doing said model. We take it on a case by case basis.
Next time, it would be appreciated if you asked before making assumptions like you did in this post. We spend a lot of time on skins and I really take it quite personally when accusations like this are made.
The recent F4 error was just that. An error. It can happen. As of today, that skin no longer is available.
We are more relaxed when it comes to older skins, as we know when they are done, all the skins get flushed and then we tighten up the standards. This has been this way for some time, and we have mode no secret about it.
And there is nothing stopping anyone from challenging the validity of a skin. You think it wrong and do not say anything to us, then you really have no room to come in here and complain or accuse about a skin.
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Greebo,
I know you are doing some more "tinkering" with the skin so take a look at the yellow leading edges. They extend too far outboard when compared to the book cover and your screen shot. Notice where the yellow stops in relation to the "meatball" on the wing.
Good looking skin and will be a great addition to the set. Thanks for doing it.
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FYI: Pyro uses the supplied information to expedite looking it up and verifying the skin. And we will accept skins close to the same model when we have no intention of doing said model. We take it on a case by case basis.
Well if the skinner says 'I found the information in XXX' then Pyro checks 'XXX' and it shows the same info then the skin gets in, right? What happens if 'XXX' is wrong or out of date? No one expects you or Pyro to be the geeks some of us are.
I think the responsibility is on the guy doing the skin to properly research it. That was my point.
In fact I recently discovered that my 109G-14 Blue 2 skin is incorrect. I have a blue gruppe marking. I recently aquired a new book which shows the gruppe marking in better light. While the aircraft numeral was 'Blue 2' the gruppe marking should be white. I have made a correction and will send it in shortly.
I would never have expected HTC to discover this based on the sources I listed.
We spend a lot of time on skins and I really take it quite personally when accusations like this are made.
I am sure you do, it's a lot of work. I have suggested in the past a peer review panel of hand picked players to pre-screen skins to lighten your work load. They would not have the ability to dis-allow a skin into the game. They would just review the skin and the research make notes and send them on to you.
I didn't make an 'accussation' just an observation.
The recent F4 error was just that. An error. It can happen. As of today, that skin no longer is available.
The F-4s I am referring to are 109F-4s. All of the current skins for the 109F-4 in AH are infact 109F-2s.
And there is nothing stopping anyone from challenging the validity of a skin. You think it wrong and do not say anything to us, then you really have no room to come in here and complain or accuse about a skin.
I am not going to start complaining about what other guys are doing, that just leads to inevitable conflicts and flames. I have brought up to some of the folks about their 109Fs being F-2 and the replies I got were 'they were accepted before'.
They don't look bad, they just aren't accurate.
Despite what you read into my post it wasn't intended to 'beat up on anyone' (at HTC or skinners).
Anyway, Tabby still looks great...
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The F4 I was referring to was the F4U-4 which got in and was not a WW2 skin. Sorry for being too brief.
As far as accuracy goes, there will always be an issue with one book saying one thing and another saying something else. Sometimes, it is simply a best guess, as none of us were actually there.
Verification will always be problematic.
FYI: We do not neccessarily use the same source as the skinner for verification.
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Skuzzy, am I correct in guessing that including actual war-time photos of the plane in question helps speed things up? I've tried to do that as often as I could, and was wondering if it helped or if you just need the name/info/time (etc) to look it up on your own?
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War time photos are always a big help.
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Is there any way we can help the cause Skuzzy?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
As far as accuracy goes, there will always be an issue with one book saying one thing and another saying something else. Sometimes, it is simply a best guess, as none of us were actually there.
Good example is the Malta 'Blue' Spits.
NO-ONE knows what color they really were, but there are some good educated guesses.
There is ONE color pic in known existance showing a crashed blue Spit but even this doesn't really help (old pic, colors bad etc).
Another one is the 'pink' IX, only seen one very old faded color picture of it, all references pointed to "RAF Camotintpink" as the color.
Bruno -
Myself and other skinners send as much info on the skin as possible, in some cases there maybe a wartime pic, other cases it's a collection of links to profiles, other times just some good educated guesswork based on other aircraft from the same squadron.
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Was that a red or blue stripe?.....
I'm not sure, but I'll take a red stripe! :D
Tough call on using wartime pics...I've got lots of books on luftwaffe colors, and it will always be the case of "eductated" guessing and "imagineering" to fit the skin. Best references are always color photos - no matter how faded, or how horrible- you should be able to pick the contrast from a known color and work from there.
Second best references would be B&W pics - as long as you have a known color or an idea where to work from
Third would be well respected and well documented artist profiles based on pics.
fourth, for me, is respected scale modeling decals.
Dont trust some pics you find on the web...always do a tad of research behind the skin.....and never ever trust other profiles / skins from other digital media.
Edit: Also when dealing with paints and color charts - try to find out the paint manufacturer, what coding they used, any details about the paint. You can usually find a match within the various colorbooks availible, as some "odd ww2 colors" have colors in current colorbooks (RAL, FS, ect...)
BTW Greebo - skin looks good!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Is there any way we can help the cause Skuzzy?
I think you guys are already doing it. It is rare I see a skin submission which has not been posted in this forum for critique. I think that is one of the best methods for insuring accuracy.
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OK, redid the yellow bands (thanks Machnix) and altered the cargo bay door as its a bit different to the C-47 or the Li-2 versions.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/sc3.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/sc2.jpg)
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Simply beautiful Greebo!! :)
I'm just wondering that the green looks awfully dark...might be your gamma setting though?
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I think IJA Dark Green was pretty dark shade, I know it always comes out really dark looking on any models I have painted with it.
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I must admit, I just took the colours for the Showa straight from Skinner's Paintshop. Since Wmaker mentioned it though, I thought I'd better do some research on IJNAF colours.
I found this excellent site on Japanese aircraft:
j-aircraft.com (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm)
In 1942 the IJN decided to go with a dark green and light grey scheme for their combat aircraft. However each of the aircraft manufacturers produced their own shades of green and grey paint. The Mitsubishi shades were completely different to the Nakajima ones, and so on. Not only that, but the shades varied throughout the war, Mitsubishi's 1944 green was not the same as its 1942 one. I guess you could say that IJNAF paint colours are a bit of a grey area...... :)
Now no one mentions what shades Showa used, so whatever shade I use could be right. OTOH Nakajima produced about a sixth of the L2Ds and their colours are listed. The Nakajima colours are a lot lighter and the green is also much bluer.
The upper colour swatches and screenshots below are the original Skinner's Paintshop colours, specifically IJNAF colours N3 and N8. The lower examples are the Nakajima colours from j-aircraft.
Any input is welcome.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/ijnafcolours.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/colourcomparisonscreenshot.jpg)
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Try this Greebo -
Problem seems to be skins are rendered dark ingame.
So I add a lighten layer set to about 30, seems to be just enough to bring them back up again.
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I can't see any way of creating a lightening layer in PSP. Although I guess I could just lighten the paint layers or even the final bmp.
I'm in two minds as to whether it needs to be lighter anyway. I may just put this one away and come back to it with fresh eyes in a week or two. It'll be a while before the next batch of skins gets done, so there's no hurry to submit it. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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From top menu -
Layers, New Adjustment Later, Brightness Contrast.
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Thanks Kev, dumb of me not to have worked that out. I've added a lightening layer and another layer with the centre of each panel faded a bit.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/sc4.jpg)
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me like!
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Yes, much better having the skin "lighter" – can see the details. Not an expert on Japanese colors but the bluer skin you're using looks more authentic.
Want some nit-picks?
1. On the yellow leading edge at the wing root, truncate the yellow at the wing root fillet so the yellow does not reach the fuselage.
2. If you modified the "dudes," darken them up. The model does not caste a shadow so the pilots are treated as if they are sitting in direct "sun."
3. Add some detail to the prop hubs if the skin lets you.
Even if you don't do the nit-picks, it's still a good-looking skin – better then I thought possible with the original 3D model design.
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Good suggestions Machnix. I've altered the yellow bands and added a darkened version of Kwaessa's excellent Japanese dude. The prop hubs are not skinnable unfortunately.