Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on April 14, 2006, 09:12:49 AM
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Got an email that suggested a gas boycott of one of the big major players. Rationale was that if we refuse to buy gas from company X that company X will be forced into price reductions.. bringing competitors pricing down.
Being something of a frothing at the mouth hysteric regarding the raping we are getting at the pumps, this, off the cuff; don't sound like sucha bad idea.
Now; this being a nation of finger pointers, and this BBS being an excellent source of financial wizards with loaded fingers, I figured I'd trot the idea out here to see if it COULD have the desired effect... and if not; what we; the analy violated consumers, could do to obtain the desired effect.
Ideas?
Thanks!
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I gotta play Devil's Advocate here...
Which company would you boycott, and why? What about unintended consequences. What if you boycott Shell, and in response they have "no choice" but to lay off a few thousand people? What happens to the people that have shares of the company you're going to boycott as part of their retirement? Is costing them thousands worth saving $3 or $4 at the pump weekly? How are you going to get enough people to jump on the bandwagon? Who's going to fund all the advertising for the campaign (it'll cost several million dollars to spread the message coast to coast)?
Noble idea. Too many problems with it imho.
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Hang,
Check snopes on this. It's an old urban legend.
Seriously, think about it. Even if the entire nation boycotted a particular manufacturer / distributor for a day it wouldn't amount to anything as it is an extemely transient situation. As long as everyone still drives the same miles they will still use the same amount of gas.
If refineries are at full or near full production all it would do is allow a bit of fuel to accumulate for one day. Big fat hairy deal.
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Whelp.. in forgien policy showdowns, Sanctions are the agreed upon action.. first.
This sounds to me like selecting the biggest abuser (and most profitable) and singling them out for a lil economic sanction. Intelligent investors would recognize they got their wad in the wrong hole, extract it and stick it someplace else. A few thousand job losses at Company X? How about the economic hardships the Raping Fuel Company X is foisting on us right now?
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This isn't the one where you boycott a company for a day, it's one where you boycott Exxon/Mobil until they drop their prices.
Indy, I don't buy goods to support a company so that share holders can have a nice warm blanket. I buy goods based on value and how it effects me, they do the same, so why should I care if they lose thousands? Sell when it starts to drop.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Hang,
Check snopes on this. It's an old urban legend.
Seriously, think about it. Even if the entire nation boycotted a particular manufacturer / distributor for a day it wouldn't amount to anything as it is an extemely transient situation. As long as everyone still drives the same miles they will still use the same amount of gas.
If refineries are at full or near full production all it would do is allow a bit of fuel to accumulate for one day. Big fat hairy deal.
Mav.. this isn't 'not buying gas for a day'.. which just deferrs the sale of fuel; the customer has to come in to fill that tank eventually. This is a boycott of a particular company (yet to be named) PERMANANTLY.. or untill the prices come down to a level that reflects a FAIR profit.. not RAPE.
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The only way to truly boycott any of the fuel suppliers is to simply toss your keys in the bin and walk/commute/bike ride to work. Unfortunately that doesn't work in areas like the one I choose to live in; because the local and state leadership of the past was too short sighted in preparing for the future and establishing decent local and metro transit systems. Plus with the way populations are sprawling all over the nation and with the schedules and way things go with families and individual needs its extremely hard to carpool without driving at some point. The biggest thing is we need alternative fuels and higher mileage requirements from a government that actually enforces its rules. BUT that isn't going to happen in the United States.
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Ok Hang, you boycott a supplier for a month. The others can't handle the load alone so they buy from the one you are boycotting to make good on their shortfall of supply. Exactly how have you caused them to drop prices as the others will RAISE prices as their market share has gone up. Why shouldn't they, after all the availability of fuel for the ones you are buying from remains the same but you just spiked their supply big time. Think it through here.
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You may be correct Reshke.. and folks strained by the gas prices are already cutting useage.. just so they can continue to make house payments, eat, etc. What's gonna occur if we don't; as a consumer group, ACT is OTHER areas of the economy will be hit.. tourisim, travel, hotel/motel, restaraunts.. entire communities based on tourisim will get pinched by the rising gas prices...
and while big oil continues to post massive profits and become stronger, small buisness takes losses. This is a shift in wealth distribution, yes?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Ok Hang, you boycott a supplier for a month. The others can't handle the load alone so they buy from the one you are boycotting to make good on their shortfall of supply. Exactly how have you caused them to drop prices as the others will RAISE prices as their market share has gone up. Why shouldn't they, after all the availability of fuel for the ones you are buying from remains the same but you just spiked their supply big time. Think it through here.
That's an issue.. BUT.. if we identify a Big Oil supplier... AND it's 'off brand' retailers and hit ALL of that Big Oil Brands chain of supply with the boycott.. and not 'for a month' but UNTILL THEY SIGNIFICANTLY DROP PRICES we will have an impact, yes?
Again.. doing NOTHING but griping will make the concept just another 'point fingers, do nothing' fiasco... pretty much what we as a nation have done to this point. I'm antsy for ACTION... and I think there's a LOTTA folks like me that are not satisfied with 'won't work, why bother'.
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Hang, the off brand retailers buy gas from the on brand wholesale suppliers. It's not a closed system and the only ones you would be hurting are the station employees even if you could get a major national boycott going. The boycotted supplier will still get rich selling their gas to the other folks because the other folks couldn't handle a 1/3 increase in sales without a 1/3 increase in supply. (assuming 3 major petrolueum suppliers for example) They raise prices and buy from the "bad boy" supplier who makes money and can lay off employees in the retail side saving more money.
If you want to do it, go for it but don't think it's any more than a masturbatory exercise. If you want prices to drop you must cut demand. If the demand can't be made up by other markets IE China etc. then prices will drop. No cut in demand = no cut in prices. Economics dude.
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That's an issue.. BUT.. if we identify a Big Oil supplier... AND it's 'off brand' retailers and hit ALL of that Big Oil Brands chain of supply with the boycott.. and not 'for a month' but UNTILL THEY SIGNIFICANTLY DROP PRICES we will have an impact, yes?
Maverick is right.
While the demand at those particular stations goes down, the demand everywhere else goes up. So everywhere else charges more.
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the only thing that will bring down gas prices is the price per barrel of crude.
you can not effect this by boycotting a gas supplier.
OPEC decides production, and prices, and then futures investors also sway prices.
i'll bet that the big oil companies have a forumla, crude costs X then refined product costs Y.
another thing radically effecting prices is the production of ethanol. there is speculation that the ethanol production this year will not meet demands. these demands are dependant on the EPA requiring 10% ethanol in gas in certian areas.
this 10% was put into effect like 10 years ago with the promise it would clean up the air. there have been studies that show it is actually worse in many cases, like cars with newer emmision standards. they burn more gas because of the lower MPG from the ethanol, and thus put more overall pollutants into the air. IIRC it was based on cars built after 1994 or something.
here in WI when it was put into effect, the average year of the cars on the road was said to be 1985 or something, so in those cars the ethanol did reduce some emmisions.
now the corn growers and ethanol producing lobby is asking the EPA to mandate it across WI, and the US. it makes them money on their crops in the guise of helping the environment. they have a VERY powerful lobby with the democrats here in WI.
well those are the snags i see in the way of your idea Hang
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What if supply from Brand X's terminals were disrupted? Would the other distributors up price?
... yah I guess they would.
And, it's not likely that other countries wouldn't quickly and happily take up any demand shortfalls resulting from a boycott here, either.
Oh, damn.
Are we completely powerless here as a consumer group? What OTHER methods would/could force the oil companies to pull their dicks outta our asses?
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I cut up the Exxon/Mobil gas card and closed the account. My family will not willingly buy gasoline at an Exxon/Mobil or Shell station ever again.
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Westy, I stopped buying from the majors retail outlets years ago. I suspect they still get my money because I never bothered to trace back who's in their distribution chain.
I like the sentemint though.. at least your trying to do something!!
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I suggest everyone boycott gas, and sooner the better. Maybe if you do it won't cost me as much to fill up the wife's suburban this weekend.
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Hang I got the same email, they showup about every 6 months it seems.
The only way I can see we could mess with the oil companies is what Reschke said. Except go one step further.
A nationwide strike. probably unrealistic but it might work. everybody just call in sick, for a week. Dont buy any gas, only purchase essential items, no movies, no eating out. Imagine 150 million or more people just dont go to work.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Whelp.. in forgien policy showdowns, Sanctions are the agreed upon action.. first.
This sounds to me like selecting the biggest abuser (and most profitable) and singling them out for a lil economic sanction. Intelligent investors would recognize they got their wad in the wrong hole, extract it and stick it someplace else. A few thousand job losses at Company X? How about the economic hardships the Raping Fuel Company X is foisting on us right now?
Mmm, well, got some statistics? How much impact would it have? A single F-16 burns more fuel in an hour than I do annually. Will delivery business jump on board, or continue to get their fuel from the cheapest supplier? Are there simply too many variables to be overcome by the % of the population that rallies behind the idea? What is the neccessary % to have the required economic impact? Can't have a movement without a definate goal (edit: otherwise you're just another hippy at the drum circle :lol )
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Citgo can be a good choice
this about a year old now.... but.
Looking for an easy way to protest Bush foreign policy week after week? And an easy way to help alleviate global poverty? Buy your gasoline at Citgo stations.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0516-25.htm
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Our company president acually sent this idea out to everyone in the firm. That is a lot of people. It says to boycott Exxon/Mobile.
I think it could work. If they (Exxon) lose sales they will have to lower prices to compete. If the people gaining business raise prices they will cut their own throats and lose it back to Exxon... Price war... woot!
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Exxon recent post profits are the largest of any company ever, in the history of corporate earnings. I think they have some reserves to ride out the boycott storm for quite a while.
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Well... doing nothing has a certain outcome.
Boycotting Exxon-Mobil and Shell has the potential of doing something. Who are Shell and Exxon-Mobil's subsidiarys? Who else is in their supply chain.. and what companies do they control/own?
Since I've not bought their gas from their flagship stores, I'd also like to cut off my funds from their corporate interests..
Who are they?
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Go buy from the no name distributer and flaunt it to Exxon, Mobil, Texaco, Shell, Amaco etc. and it will accomplish nothing. Who do you think the no name distributers buy their gas from?
Want to drop fuel prices? Walk, ride a bicycle stay home whatever. If enough people around the WORLD do that and there is a significant drop in fuel usage then maybe, not likely but maybe OPEC will cut it's per barrel price. The most likely result is that the remaining fuel not purchased by the US will simply be sold to another nation.
If nothing else, if you do not drive you do not need to buy ga, therefore YOUR fuel costs will go down.
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I know... let's blow up the Exxon refineries! No more profit for THEM!
.....oops.... wait a second.... that might not work either.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Go buy from the no name distributer and flaunt it to Exxon, Mobil, Texaco, Shell, Amaco etc. and it will accomplish nothing. Who do you think the no name distributers buy their gas from?
Want to drop fuel prices? Walk, ride a bicycle stay home whatever. If enough people around the WORLD do that and there is a significant drop in fuel usage then maybe, not likely but maybe OPEC will cut it's per barrel price. The most likely result is that the remaining fuel not purchased by the US will simply be sold to another nation.
If nothing else, if you do not drive you do not need to buy ga, therefore YOUR fuel costs will go down.
So thats it.. do nothing, use less, your costs will go down?
Ok.. I have cut my costs. No unnecessary trips. Had to go to Toledo last weekend.. annual trip for the R/C expo. Been going for 20 years. Gotta go.. I'm a vendor. Always drove. This year, I took AMTRAK. Pain in the butt, but I didn't buy 250 bucks worth of gas.
Guess what. Gas prices still went up. Know what? I think that showing my displeasure with the gas companies by singling out a distributor/supplier and boycotting it would be better than plunging my head up my bellybutton and saying 'won't help if we boycott'.
At least I'm doing SOMETHING to strike back at what I consider to be a corporate rape job by big business.
So.. sit on the sidelines. Twiddle yer thumbs. Point at me and say 'Fool.. your not accomplishing a damn thing'... that may be true.. but I'm standing up and exercising my American Right to Take my Business Elsewhere rather than doing 'nothing'.
Now.. does anybody have any suggestions on which companies to boycott? Some majors are running ads on what they are doing to research and advance 'alternative energy'. Some may be deeply involved in charity/philanthropic endeavors... some may be just carting the profits outta the country.
I wanna know who the worst abusers are.. and I wanna go after them.
Any suggestions on a suitable scurvy rapist oil company that is fully deserving of the wrath of an outraged american?
Thanks.
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I won’t join in because it would be as immoral as… say… price fixing…?
WAIT A MINUTE! Every gas station in town has exactly the same price and when one goes up, they all go up… Their costs must be identical. Hmm? No, I trust big oil; they are on our side and are looking out for us.
Apparently the biggest problem is, too few people get it. It really is price fixing from the consumers’ end.
The key would be organization and communication; everyone in an area is told/agrees not to buy from Brand X until their price is 8 cents cheaper than their competitors. Brand X gets little business and caves in. They mark their price down and down until it hits 8 cents cheaper than their competitors. Then, everyone buys from Brand X until the others match Brand X’s price. At that point everyone boycotts Brand X again, and so on.
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What makes you think oil companies will sell oil and oil products to you for less than they can sell them to another country?
Oil production is running close to limits. Oil demand is high, and rising. There are threats to the medium term supplies (eg Iraq, and especially any action against Iran)
All those go to make oil expensive. People are prepared to pay high prices, and the owners of the oil will naturally sell it for what they can get. If you want to cut prices, cut demand, increase supply, or remove threats to future supply (or all 3).
The key would be organization and communication; everyone in an area is told/agrees not to buy from Brand X until their price is 8 cents cheaper than their competitors.
Good luck cutting 8 cents out of the refining/distribution/marketting side of the equation. The problem is the costs in those areas are very low, and profits are low, as well.
The profit is in supplying crude at the moment. Crude oil is very expensive, and if you own a well, you can sell the output for far more than you could a few years ago. Hence, big profits.
But if you want to cut those profits, you have to work out a way to make people sell the US oil at less than the market rate. You have to make them say, ok, we'll sell you oil at $50 a barrel, and say to the Chinese, Germans, Japanese etc no, we won't sell it to you for $70 a barrel.
Why should they?
If the price of housing goes up in your area, do you sell your house for the market rate, or sell it for what you paid for it?
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Get a more fuel efficient vehicle, one that runs on Diesel. And pressure the politicians to change fuel tax policies so that the pump prices will reflect real production costs, and start taxing new vehicles by their fuel consumption and use that money on alternate energy research.
Sounds commie? It's the only thing that will work.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Exxon recent post profits are the largest of any company ever, in the history of corporate earnings. I think they have some reserves to ride out the boycott storm for quite a while.
heh.. nicly understated
Exxon's 2005 profit USD $36 billion
They are a long way from being on the bones of their arse.
They should go shopping, diversify, after all the oil ain't going to last for ever.
I know where there are 3 sub topical islands and 40 million sheep going cheap if they are interested.
Excel
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Could it lower prices? No.
What can you do to reduce gas prices? Buy less gas.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Good luck cutting 8 cents out of the refining/distribution/marketting side of the equation. The problem is the costs in those areas are very low, and profits are low, as well.
The profit is in supplying crude at the moment. Crude oil is very expensive, and if you own a well, you can sell the output for far more than you could a few years ago. Hence, big profits.
But if you want to cut those profits, you have to work out a way to make people sell the US oil at less than the market rate. You have to make them say, ok, we'll sell you oil at $50 a barrel, and say to the Chinese, Germans, Japanese etc no, we won't sell it to you for $70 a barrel.
Why should they?
If the price of housing goes up in your area, do you sell your house for the market rate, or sell it for what you paid for it?
So if gas at the pump costs the consumer $2.70, how much do you think it costs big oil?
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mora... diesel costs more here than the most expensive gas.
The government can only screw up things if you give them money.... they will not spend the research money wisely. In the U.S. in any case.
Whenever the government funds research it slows it. rebates for instance slow research. everyone just puts out their hand and has no stake in making a profit.
I am not sure what can be done. I have not seen a lot of good suggestions.
lazs
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Nationalize big oil?
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That didn't work very well in Mexico.
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Why is it liberals can never grasp the often unfortunate concept of supply and demand.
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So if gas at the pump costs the consumer $2.70, how much do you think it costs big oil?
To produce? Depends where they get the oil from. If they own the well, and don't have to pay higher royalties or taxes, then costs haven't gone up. If they are buying the crude, then the costs have goneup hugely.
The things is, though, why should Exxon take a barrel of crude, refine it, ship it and sell it US consumers for less than they could get selling it abroad? Why should they go to the international petroleum markets, buy crude, refine it, ship it and sell it to American consumers for significantly less than it costs?
The price of oil has gone up, because there is more demand and restricted supply. That means you either pay what it costs, or do without. Increased cost reduces demand, so it's a self regulating market.
The only way you can reduce what you're paying for oil is to use less, produce more, or reduce uncertainty in the market.
Trying to regulate the price will just reduce supply, as the foreign oil producers are going to sell at the market rate, not the price you want to pay.
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Aside from 'that didn't work very well in Mexico' (what ever works well in mexico?) why not Nationalize Big Oil? Seems Big Oil has been pulling the strings in governement.. why not have government take over big oil... cuts taxes, profits go to continued research and paying down the national debt... hell.. with big oil's profits in the national coffers, we could even pay for new road infrastructure, rebuild/repair of bridges, etc.
Keep american oil in america!
;)