Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Treize69 on April 16, 2006, 01:21:37 PM
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(http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/uploads/post-2-1102591829.jpg)
The picture was taken at the end of august or begin of september '44 on Popesti -Leordeni airfield ( SE of Bucharest).
P 51-D Mustang WD-O "Thunderbird", Sn 44-13555 assigned on 19 june '44 to pilot Ted Lines (southwest Indian Thunderbird his personal emblem).
The problem is that there is no record of this A/C having been lost on the shuttle raid, and no reason it would have been found this far east after that.
Does anyone have any idea, we're stumped!
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Wat does A/C mean?
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Maybe that plane was there for navigational error (or technical problem etc.) and returned back later.
gripen
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A/C is short for Aircraft.
We discussed the possibility of a lost or damaged aircraft landing in (by then) friemdly Romania, but it seems a long way to go with Switzerland closer to England and much of France and the Low Countries in Allied hands.
One of the aircraft with the WD-O codes is listed as "fate unknown" on the 4th FG site, could this be it?
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Treize69,
some of the shuttle missions were flown from Italy.
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Yes, the 4th flew the first one. Theres listings of all aircraft involved, which ones were lost, and which ones came back, but no mention of this aircraft.
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44-13567 WD-O MIA 8/18/44 Although it looks like this one was over France so that doesn't fit.
Lines WD-O/D survived the war
44-14066 WD-O MIA 8/28/44-Another mission that was Germany/France.
Where's the photo from? What's the 4 blade bird next to it?
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Romania, and I assume thats another P-51 next to it. Itys a zoom in on that pic, source (Dan Melinte) says that its a shot of several P-51s on that field- all the rest are 15th AAF birds, he noticed that one on a closer look.
I haven't seen the whole pic, I'll try and see if I can get a copy of it and post it up here.
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Originally posted by Treize69
Romania, and I assume thats another P-51 next to it. Itys a zoom in on that pic, source (Dan Melinte) says that its a shot of several P-51s on that field- all the rest are 15th AAF birds, he noticed that one on a closer look.
I haven't seen the whole pic, I'll try and see if I can get a copy of it and post it up here.
Hmmmm, the 4th left some birds behind with the 15th and flew some 15th birds back to England. Wonder if it's one of those left behinds? Looks like its a non-fin fillet D-5 model. They didnt have that many D's on the shuttle runs and it looks like only one D model was lost but that was WD-K 44-13402.
Gotta solve the mystery :)
Second thought was it was a 52nd FG bird since those 15th AF Mustangs carried the same codes as the 4th, but they had the individual codes on the tail.
hmmm. 44-13399 WD-? salvaged on the Russian Shuttle run 6/21/44.
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Yup, we've been wracking our brains for months, finally decided to expand the 'hunt' to another group of enthusiasts. :)
Heres the whole photo-
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7963/sa080rs.jpg)
Just a quick observation- I don't recall ever seeing a 15th AAF bird with D-Day stripes...
And none of my 4th books make mention of any P-51Ds left behind after the shuttle raid in flyable condition, just wrecks and missing birds. WD-O isn't among them.
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Hmmm. Interesting as the 325th Checkertails were the guys that swapped 51s so that the 4th could get their guys home. Here's an image you've probably seen of one of the 325th birds back at Debden.
Makes me think even more it was one of the 4th birds left with the 325th 'traded' for a flyable 51 to get home in. Definately appears to be a D-5 so that would fit that time frame.
Wonder if we can track the story on that 51B from the 325th. Can you make out the name? looks like the number is 71
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1145253855_32551.jpg)
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'Sleepy' something. Looks like 'Dan' or 'Don' or something else 3 letters and starting with D.
EDIT: Second look, maybe 'Sleepy Ann' ?
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Looks to me like it says "Sleepy Ann"
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Quick googling turns up "Sleepy Ann" of the 319th FS, 325th FG, flown by Clint Lightfoot, although they list the A/C number as 88. Thinking we've got it, but the number is 71.
Kinda fun playing detective. Now where to go....hmmmm......
A little more digging turns up Clinton W. Lightfoot, 15th AF Pilot, 30 combat missions in P51 Mustangs.
Turns out he's from Minnesota. Think he's passed away though as he's honored by his wife on the WW2 memorial in Washington. Wonder if I can find her? :)
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Treize69,
Is there a reason to believe that this plane (P-51D, WD-O) was damaged or lost?
If it returned back later, there is no loss record (nor damage record). It appear to be on some kind of stand in the picture but otherwise nothing indicates that it's damaged.
gripen
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The left wingtip is mangled
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Originally posted by Treize69
The left wingtip is mangled
That gaping hole wasnt put there from the factory???
;)
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Thats not a 52nd FG WD the font it wrong, thats definately a 4th FG WD on that bird. Also it does look like invasion stripes (white) fore and aft of the star and bar.
The shuttle mission was June 21st and they would have had invasion stripes then.
Also for the record the 4th flew a mission on July 2nd against targets in Hungary from bases in Italy.`Five mustangs were lost.
Also I see that Kid Hofer's wingman crash landed his P-51 on July 2nd, could that be the plane in the photo? It was a 335th bird. It does not appear to be supported on its own gear. Do the markings look faded?
Could it be a loaner given to the checkertails? But on an airfield in Romania, it would have been later in the war, why does it still have invasion stripes applied?
When did they issue 75 gallon drop tanks in lieu of the 108 gallon paper ones?
Also from http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/...
44-13399 P-51D 335 WD-O Damaged 21 June 1944 during "Frantic" mission and left in Russia - Lt. James W Russell Jr
Could that photo be in Russia? Did the 325th ever fly into Russia? [edit] Turns out they did fly into Russia on June 2, 1944 and where there until June 11th. Suppose this guy got left behind due to some problem and was photographed after the 4th FG left WD-O ?
The guy in front of the checkertail's nose looks to be in a uniform, but what country?
What is that plane behind the B model?
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I can't certainly say if the wing tip is damaged? It seem to be under some kind of fixing operation because the stand.
Usually if a plane is in a air field, it has flew there. If somebody trys to fix it, there is apparently hope to fly it again. Just my two cents...
gripen
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Originally posted by Fencer51
Thats not a 52nd FG WD the font it wrong, thats definately a 4th FG WD on that bird. Also it does look like invasion stripes (white) fore and aft of the star and bar.
The shuttle mission was June 21st and they would have had invasion stripes then.
Also for the record the 4th flew a mission on July 2nd against targets in Hungary from bases in Italy.`Five mustangs were lost.
Also I see that Kid Hofer's wingman crash landed his P-51 on July 2nd, could that be the plane in the photo? It was a 335th bird. It does not appear to be supported on its own gear. Do the markings look faded?
Could it be a loaner given to the checkertails? But on an airfield in Romania, it would have been later in the war, why does it still have invasion stripes applied?
When did they issue 75 gallon drop tanks in lieu of the 108 gallon paper ones?
Also from http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/...
44-13399 P-51D 335 WD-O Damaged 21 June 1944 during "Frantic" mission and left in Russia - Lt. James W Russell Jr
Could that photo be in Russia? Did the 325th ever fly into Russia? [edit] Turns out they did fly into Russia on June 2, 1944 and where there until June 11th. Suppose this guy got left behind due to some problem and was photographed after the 4th FG left WD-O ?
The guy in front of the checkertail's nose looks to be in a uniform, but what country?
What is that plane behind the B model?
George Stanforth was with the Kidd and he was in a D model, but it was WD-K. He threw a rod and bellied it in.
The tanks on the B model are metal 110 gallon tanks I believe, often used in the MTO.
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The checkertail Mustang was, according to the source of the photo, left behind due to mechanical problems during the evacuation of the USAAF POWs from Romania in August of '44. Landed due to mechanical problems and the pilot flew out as a passenger on one of the B-17s carrying the prisoners back to Italy.
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So is it safe then to assume that the WD coded plane was at that field before then? I gotta believe that by that time any 4th FG planes left in Italy would have been repainted to 325th colors.
Could the source of the photo be wrong?
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Another, clearer image of the same two aircraft, the uniform is Romanian. Ther pilot in the white shirt is believed to be Prince Contacuzino. It looks like him, but the quality of the image makes it hard to know for certain.
(http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/uploads/post-2-1102591995.jpg)
And a picture of Lct Negulescu in the cockpit of WD-O at the same airfield.
(http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/uploads/post-2-1102592424.jpg)
Noone is sure what happened to the aircraft after the war, its generally believed it was either scrapped (no spare parts) or that the Russians confiscated it (as they did with most of the aircraf tthe ARR captured).
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OK so we definately know it's an early D-5 based on the two new images. Can you make out the first numbers on the serial in the one image?
Not much doubt then on the Russian Shuttle run connection. Just not that many D-5s on that flight though. Even Blakslee was still in his malcom hooded WD-C
It's gotta be 44-13399 P-51D WD-O that was damaged and left behind during the Russian Shuttle Run.
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Originally posted by Treize69
(http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/uploads/post-2-1102591995.jpg)
That O does not match the normal "font" used by the 4th FG's 335th Squadron.
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Done fast and not as accurate due to the invasion stripes?
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Dunno, let me dig and see what else I can find from that time frame. BTW I played with the photo some and it looks like 4#3 for the serial.
But how does a damaged P-51D get left on a Romanian airbase?
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Only thing that makes sense is that its :
44-13399
P-51D WD-O
Damaged 21 June 1944 during "Frantic" mission and left
in Russia.
Lt. James W Russell Jr
WD-O appears to have been the assigned aircraft of Captain Albert Schlegal who was Ops officer of 335th. He had at least 2 B models WD-O with photos of both available and was lost in August 44 in WD-O a P51D. There was a second WD-O lost in August as well.
This one seems to fit between Schlegal's NMF B model and the D he was lost in.
All educated guessing I suppose, but it's the only thing that makes any sense.