Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on October 10, 2000, 12:39:00 AM
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(http://www.geocities.com/playballfair/gorehead.jpg)
Shoot Al Shoot!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It looks like the barrel might be angled past his left ear.
And he did remove the magazine and maybe he even cleared the weapon.
But still that's a hell of a funny picture and caption.
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Funk...
Look around his Alice gear. See anything that looks like a magazine?
I'm betting he got the "Barney Fife" treatment!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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OUCH! LOL!
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Did Bush serve in Vietnam?
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Sorry Toad - you'll have to educate me - "Barney Fife" ??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
Sparks
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Bush hasn't even had a real job.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Nope, Bush didn't visit the jungle paradise. He did get through UPT and got his wings. You can't fake UPT; he qualified or he wouldn't have graduated. You have to fly those jets solo sooner or later.
BTW, before you make the point that "at least Gore went to Vietnam", realize that not everyone in the service in those years "went". I know Green Berets that never went; they spent the whole decade in Germany because that was their assignment.
You went where you were told to go.
Both of these brave young lads got VERY preferential treatment through the kind offices of their politician daddies. While Al's Dad kept him safe behind a typewriter, he still got sent to that paradise while George had to "fight" the war as a weekend-warrior in the F-102, defending an O-Club in Texas. George's Dad did a better job, IMHO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sparks, there's an old, old TV comedy here called "Mayberry RFD". It featured Andy Griffith as the Sheriff ("Andy") of a small town and Don Knotts as his Deputy ("Barney". Andy would let Barney carry a revolver but he wouldn't let him have any bullets. This was due primarily to Barney's total incompetence and lack of common sense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Igloo,
I don't know how "rich folk" act in canada, but down here in the misguided states, the sons of extremely rich people very often never have a "real job". You could say the same thing about dear old Al. The son of extremely rich politician parents,all he's ever been is a lackluster politician.
Want to look up something interesting? Go looking for information on how much of Occidental Petroleum the Gore family owned. Then listen to Al slam Georgie for being "big oil". LOL!
They're ALL alike!
"Conservatives are afraid the people WON'T understand; Liberals are afraid the people WILL understand!!!" [Unknown]
"Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." [Mark Twain: Manuscript note, c.1882]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Oh come on Toad don't you know Algore was a farmer? He raised 10,000 chickens with his bare hands.
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"Choked" or "raised"?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gotta get to work now..been too much fun already!
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No, you got it wrong, he grew tobacco with his own two hands. Now he sues the tobacco companies for using selling the crop his family sold them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
If Bush had Gore's PR man, Bush would run away with this election. They know the spin move for sure....or is that the lag roll (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Santa,
GW defended the great state of Texas from invasion from Mexico or Oklahoma (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) he didn't go to Vietnam, but he did earn his wings in the f104 THUD. Gore when, but I believe he had a body guard the whole time he was there. In the 60's Bush learned to fly jets, dangerous jets at that. In the 60's Gore went to Vietnam w/ a typewriter, a bodyguard and 1 bullet that he wasn't allowed to take out of his shirt pocket, unless the enemy wasn't around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Igloo,
Bush was a land man here in Texas and baught oil rights from Texas land owners. He was actualy quite successful in his business that he started. He did well enough to buy a share in the Texas Rangers. I'm not sure, but I'd bet that runnign a baseball team rates as a job. Of course then there's his current job, Govenor of the 2nd largest state in the union. A job he did so well in his first term that he got the endorsment of the most powerful liberal democrat in Texas, late Lt. Gov. Bob Bullock. Bullock was one of the most stubborn democrats I can remember in my lifetime, but he saw what a good JOB that GW did bringing Reps and Dems together on important issues.
What does Gore do with important issues? Does he offer sollutions? NO he would rather use the issue to brow beat Republicans. After all if you solved a problem you couldn't "own" the issue anymore and use it to hurt your apponent. But all of that doesn't matter anyway because the fact remains that Gore is a liar and not a good one at that. In last weeks debate Gore told at least 3 whoppers.
Ask the people that came to the con how poluted Texas is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) that's another lie of al gore and the liberal media...
Udie
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All politicians lie. It goes with the job. Believe it or not, Bush does too.
"He's a major league amazinhunk" - "Oh ya, big time, big time" looked great on him, true, classless colours.
I'm more worried about the chance Bush has being elected and his dealing with international affairs. I seriously do not think he has the intellectual capability to grasp all foriegn concepts and situations. He proved it in the debate with his reference to Russia.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
[This message has been edited by Igloo (edited 10-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Oh come on Toad don't you know Algore was a farmer? He raised 10,000 chickens with his bare hands.
hehe didn't he raise tabacco once with his bare hands? he realy has had an amazing life, I'm suprised he's not God yet.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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"Conservative politicians are self-serving elitists." [Dowding]
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"he's a major league bellybutton hole" - G.W. Bush
Sounded like somebody saying it like it is to me.
"No controling legal authority" - Al Gore Jr.
What has Bush lied about? Can you tell me one thing? There's a list of stuff Gore has lied about, and that list gets bigger every day, realy just about every time he opens his mouth.
About forieng affairs polotics, don't underestimate Bush he's a smart man and will hire smart people. Can you remember Dick Cheney's roll in the keeping the coilition together in the Gulf War? In the debate Bush was asked what he would do about Slobo Melisovich if he wouldn't leave power. Bush said he'd ask Russia to tell tell him to leave. Gore then said how wrong Bush was and that would put us in a position where we'd be forced to do what Russia wanted even if we didn't like what they said. Well the whole time Clinton was doing exactly what Gov. Bush suggested. Gore basicly insulted Russia on national television.
I'm sorry but the only time I remember Gore actualy doing his constitutional duty as VP was when he cast the tie breaking vote giving us the largest tax increase in US history. At least he's not as slick as Clinton, I realy don't think Gore could/will get away with 1/4 of what Clinton has.
udie
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Just asking Toad, I want both sides of the issue.
I mean, Bush has skeletons in his closets too, like the coke experimentation bit.
As far as "learning to fly jets, dangerous ones", I doubt *anyone* of us would give up an opportunity to "patriotically defend our country, taking huge risks flying jet planes".
Hell, that's not a job. It ain't even patriotic. It'd be FUN. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"You are an [insert], therefore your argument is invalid".
Seems to be what public debates on politicians have come to be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Was a funny pic though, it's just a little one sided on this forum. And I am prone to help out minorities in such situations (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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If Bush was "calling it as it is" he would have had the balls to say to his face instead of being a sneaky rat and attempt to cover it up as "an aside" to his running mate.
Bush has said with misguided confidence that he has never excecuted one innocent person in Texas. Frankly, you cannot say that because you cannot know with certinty.
If you like him "calling it as he sees it", perhaps you won't mind when he calls the leader of China a "Communist salamander" or something like that. Don't feel so confident, China could give the US a good run for their money.
One reporter at CNN had to ask George Bush if he was Dislexic (sp?) because he randomly broke his sentences with mumbling pig latin. He couldn't express himself clearly and mixed up his words. Go ahead and elect a person like that to be responsible with very complex international affairs. Do what you will, it is not my country, but I can garuntee you will not be better off with Bush than you are with Clinton.
I find Bush funny, but that's about it.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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<<Dislexic (sp?) >>
Dyslexic
Close, but no cigar. And it's nothing to make fun of. Dyslexia sucks the life out of anyone.
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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"
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If Bush was "calling it as it is" he would have had the balls to say to his face instead of being a sneaky rat and attempt to cover it up as "an aside" to his running mate.
He apologized that people heard it. He never apologized that he said it. That makes it "calling it as it is". I don't recall anyone writing/broadcasting a story on just what a swell person that reporter was and how wrong Bush was.
Bush thought the mics were off. He wouldn't have said it otherwise. It doesn't mean it wasn't accurate.
Bush has said with misguided confidence that he has never excecuted one innocent person in Texas. Frankly, you cannot say that because you cannot know with certinty.
Oh.. come on. You have to do better than that. A real lie.. not something that could be untrue.. something you know to be untrue. Did he help to create the internet?
If you like him "calling it as he sees it", perhaps you won't mind when he calls the leader of China a "Communist salamander" or something like that.
Erm.. right. You do realize you've just made a huge leap in illogical conclusions 101 don't you?
Sheesh
AKDejaVu
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Igloo, if you would take a minute, I'm curious as to your background, and how you came to be so liberal in your philosophy.
I'm basically ignorant of Canadian government except I know that you have socialized medicine, and if I'm not mistaken, your taxes are high because of it.
Is Canada a two-party system?
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Some people will look logic right in the face and laugh at it. But there's one fact that I will be basing my vote on this year. Al Gore has spent the last 8 years lieing and covering for bill clinton. Sorry but that disqualifies him from getting my vote. I have yet to catch GW in a lie and he's been my Govenor for a number of years now. He's yet to execute anybody that I know of. He realy has no say so in the matter here in Texas, he has to follow the choice of the board of parolls or some agency like that, can't remember which one. When elected GW wont be the first dislexic president either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) as if dislexia was some bad mental discease anyway, good God is that all the libs can come up with?
Gore is a liar, not a good one at that.
Udie
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Canada has more than two parties. One of which is called "Liberal" and is currently in office, so to speak.
We have the Liberals, Canadian Alliance, NDP and Bloc Quebecois.
I am voting Canadian Alliance, so far.
My background? I'm open minded and willing to have change if it is for the better. If that means making additions to or subtractions from the Canadian Constitution, so be it. Yes, we have a Constitution.
The "amazinhunk" thing, from my perspecive (and David Letterman's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) looked great on him. It was a perfect example of him being a redneck weasel.
I did not joke about Dyslexia. Bush was manifesting those symptoms, whether he has it or not. It was enough for CNN to come outright and ask him.
One of the major responsibilites a president has is to be articulate and clear. Especially with international matters. He cannot rely on his staff to work with complex matters all the time.
If Ventura would run, I think he would make a good president. He is the most honest politician I have ever seen, a little like our own former Prime Minster Pierre Trudeau. Actually, I think Bill Maur (sp?), the host of Politically Incorrect, would make a great pres. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
[This message has been edited by Igloo (edited 10-10-2000).]
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Errr, back to the subject, funny picture! I once shot at a duck over the top of my brothers head while in a canoe...that's when we decided that bringing peppermint schnapps on hunting trips was something you do after you finish for the day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn RIP! and you wanted to go shootin with me?!?!?!
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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LOL Rip
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I was soooo tempted to go downstairs to the shooting range while we were at the bar. Karnak would have loved it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Reseraunt, Bar, Gun store and shooting range all under one roof (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) OH MAN and the size of those black bass in that aquarium!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Udie
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Just asking Toad, I want both sides of the issue.
NP, I was just trying to give some perspective.
As far as "learning to fly jets, dangerous ones", I doubt *anyone* of us would give up an opportunity to "patriotically defend our country, taking huge risks flying jet planes".
So it may seem. Let me tell you my experience.
I went to UPT in November of '73. Class of 60 guys, 55 USAF Academy/ROTC mix, 4 from Norway and....one Air National Guard.
When we all met the first time and stood and told our life stories, the Guard guy metioned that he was from the C-141 unit in Norton (close to LA). He also mentioned that he was one of 3 Guard guys that accepted a slot to UPT in 1973...out of 335 slots offered by the USAF. I never checked his numbers but I believed him then and now. (You should have seen the looks on the faces of the 55 of us! We all were getting 6 year committments to the USAF after UPT. He had NONE...NONE!)
Six months after graduation he was flying in the Guard and working for Flying Tiger airlines, now undoubtedly a senior FedEx Captain.
Here's some info from an "official" Bush site:
"Pilot, Texas Air National Guard, 1968-73.
He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard."
I'm guessing he went to UPT about '68. I don't know how many Guard slots were available and I don't know how many were filled. I don't know how hard George Senior would have had to pull strings to get his son in. Could have been tough, could have been easy.
I will say this...5 years later Guard slots were going begging. Fun job or not.
The military was NOT popular then. Like a lot of other guys, I got spit upon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Big mistake! LOL! I still remember that one! Bet he didn't spit again till they unwired his jaw!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
I'm more worried about the chance Bush has being elected and his dealing with international affairs
Oh, is that all that worries you?
Relax!
We've cut a deal with canada. They're going to lead the world for the next 4 years.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's an expensive hobby though...you might want to start raising taxes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-10-2000).]
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Dealing with international matters with Mexico is not comparable with hosting a peace sumit to end a 2000+ y/old war in the Middle East. Frankly, it does not appear that Bush would be capable of this task. He can't even study before debates. His advisors say that once he is crammed with details he does poorly under pressure. Isn't that a good quality to have when dealing with, sometimes hostile, international policies.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Dealing with international matters with Mexico is not comparable with hosting a peace sumit to end a 2000+ y/old war in the Middle East. Frankly, it does not appear that Bush would be capable of this task. He can't even study before debates. His advisors say that once he is crammed with details he does poorly under pressure. Isn't that a good quality to have when dealing with, sometimes hostile, international policies.
LOL LOL Oh man like Clinton has done a wonderful job in Isreal, how many people have died there in fighting durring the last 2 weeks? Aint nobody gonna stop that fight but them or God.
It's funny Reagan used to get all messed up if he studdied before debates too, remember the first debate in '94 with Mondale? Reagan looked totaly out of it. He came back in the second debate after "not studying" and whooped Mondale's pinko arse. Strange part, using the logic of your post, is how Reagan became the BEST foriegn policy president since at least WW2, and ended the cold war, with help from Margaret Thatcher (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gore is good at pointing out the problems that the democrats have given us over the last 40 years, but he offers no solution except bigger governement which just adds to the problem, but hey Gore know's those details. Bush could care less about the details he's more interested in a solution to the problems, which he offers.
Got anything else? this one was too easy you can do better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Dealing with international matters with Mexico is not comparable with hosting a peace sumit to end a 2000+ y/old war in the Middle East. Frankly, it does not appear that Bush would be capable of this task. He can't even study before debates. His advisors say that once he is crammed with details he does poorly under pressure. Isn't that a good quality to have when dealing with, sometimes hostile, international policies.
Igloo,
Just a clue here. The election is for the President of the United States. Not for the leader of international relations. Job one is to take care of the US. You want to worry about "international relations" join the Peace Corps and do something besides talk.
Mav
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I've already joined the Red Cross.
Like it or not, the US has an obligation to act as Peacekeepers. Something that comes with the package of having one of the most powerful militaries in the world.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
I've already joined the Red Cross.
I commend you Igloo <S>
Like it or not, the US has an obligation to act as Peacekeepers. Something that comes with the package of having one of the most powerful militaries in the world.
[/b]
Why?? Why on our nickel? That's one of the problems now, they (the current administration) have stretched the military all around the world while at the same time they have cut the budget year after year. Can't have it both ways.
Eagler
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Dealing with international matters with Mexico is not comparable with hosting a peace sumit to end a 2000+ y/old war in the Middle East. Frankly, it does not appear that Bush would be capable of this task. He can't even study before debates. His advisors say that once he is crammed with details he does poorly under pressure. Isn't that a good quality to have when dealing with, sometimes hostile, international policies.
Preparation for debate? Like telling the full story of some poor girl in a classroom that had no funding to even buy her a desk to sit in? (Said girl was standing, and had a stool available, because there was $100,000 worth of lab equipment in the room that had not been unpacked yet, and there was not room for another desk.)
Peace in the Middle East. This would relate I suppose to Al Gore's signing of a treaty with Russia allowing them to sell weapons to Iran (in violation of current US embargo laws regarding Iran), letting them postpone the reduction of those sales, which they have yet to do?
Or is this relating to Bush's "mistake" regarding Russia? It was very lightly reported that Bush's comments on Russia in regards to elections in Bosnia were directly in line with the White House statement earlier that afternoon, and some time later the Russians endorsed the opposition party.
Disregarding the shady stance(s) of the VP for a moment, we are indeed at a crossroads, and must decide if we want to head towards a govermental structure similar to the more liberal representative goverments, or keep our power structures more local. Do you know gas actually costs less in England than in the US pre-tax? Then they add ~$4 tax per gallon. Goverment sponsered health care has resulted in private insurance and doctors, as the market disregards government directives and responds to the demand for quality health care and health care coverage.
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Originally posted by Igloo:
I've already joined the Red Cross.
Like it or not, the US has an obligation to act as Peacekeepers. Something that comes with the package of having one of the most powerful militaries in the world.
Igloo,
The US does NOT have an "obligation to act as peacekeepers". The US has the obligation of taking care of the US and it's national interests.
The one body that does have the obligation of being interested in acting on the basis of a "global" policy is the UN. Just because the US has a capable military does not mean it has the "obligation" to use it to enforce peace or to make a peace in an area of the world not in it's national interest.
Frankly in some cases I think things would be better if the US did not get involved in a decades or centuries old conflict. If the antagonists themselves can't grow up enough to stop the fighting and learn to get along they probably should be allowed to finish the conflict and get it over with.
Rather cold hearted opinion but at the same time if there is no realistic resolution in sight or even possible we serve no real purpose getting in the middle. This was called euphemistically an "exit strategy" when considering the usage of force. Another way of putting it is this. If you can't win it, don't get in it. Losing people to no real good outcome is not a valid policy.
Mav
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... Reagan became the BEST foriegn policy president since at least WW2...
You're joking, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The man who, two days after 241 marines are killed in Bierut, invades Grenada because there are believed to be '...heavily armed Cuban insurgents...' over there. After quickly invading the place (which put up about as much resistance as randy White House intern.) Reagan promptly declares the shame of Vietnam has been erased!
It turned out that the '...Cuban revolutionaries...' were 100 construction workers, and were completely unarmed.
As for the rest of the world - well done Thatcher for selling arms to Iraq and propping up the regime.
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Yeah right Dowding. Those "construction workers" had enough small arms, artillery, AA guns, and patrol boats stockpiled to supply a division. Maybe 100 of them were indeed "construction workers", but the other 700 Cuban soldiers put up a hell of a fight. Go tell the 119 US soldiers who were wounded, or the families of the 19 who were killed, about how the "construction workers" were unarmed.
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The role of the Cubans depends on which accounts you believe. To this day there is a lot of controversy regarding the revolution and the US invasion (as I'm sure you know).
In Reagan's TV announcement (shortly after the Beirut attack) he stated he had satellite pictures which showed a secret Soviet-Cuban military airstrip. In reality, it was far from secret; US medical students jogged up and down it each day and tourists used it to get access to Grenada. Another interesting fact, is that key financial support for the strip came from neither Cuba or the USSR but Britain.
Bit of a mistake on Maggie's part; the phoneline to Washington must have been down the day that decision was made, since normally, Thatcher would say 'Yes! Absolutely!' before the phone even rang.
As for the invasion - it was 'easy' as far as invasions go. Most of the Grenadian armed forces were nothing more than militia and the country is absolutely tiny (100,000 inhabitants). There are some interesting facts about the invasion itself:
1) The medical students (who were apparently the main reason why the US invaded) radioed that they were in no danger, and despite this US Rangers 'saved' them - in the process, a mental hospital was bombed.
2) Cuban soldiers at the airport let paratroopers land, after reneging on a deal with the Grenadians to resist.
3) Seventeen members of the NJM (who instigated the revolution) were tried for the murder of another revolutionary in trials that were dubious in both their conduct and outcome.
The revolution itself was not as 'cut and dried' as the US made out. The blood thirsty image of revolution painted later, did not fit with the fact that only two deaths occurred during that time. It was a popularist revolution, to remove the nutter Gairy - who thought he was immortal, by the way. He was dictator in the Haitian mold.
There is also evidence that the US undermined the NJM; tourism by US citizens (a potential goldmine for any Carribean country) was made virtually impossible (a la Cuba) and some suggest the CIA was involved in assassination attempts on key members of the NJM leadership.
I find it hard not to see the whole thing as a PR stunt, especially on the back of the Beirut disaster; the death of the Marines must have severely tested the public's support of the deployment of US armed forces abroad. Now Reagan could demonstrate that that such deployment was vital if communism was to be surpressed (a very popular policy). In terms of foreign relations, by the UN's own legislation, intervention in Grenada was illegal and the UN security council was against it 11 to 1. Guess who the 'for' was?
However, as I said at the beginning, the events surrounding Grenada are pretty murky. There are many other theories out there.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-16-2000).]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Like it or not, the US has an obligation to act as Peacekeepers.
Utter nonsense. If you wanna risk your life in some rat hole, "saving" people who do not want to be "saved", go ahead and volunteer (or send your kids instead). Leave my kids alone.
Where do you get those ideas? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Dowding I didn't say Grenada wasn't cheesy. It was one of the lower moments of Reagan's regime. But to say the US forces didn't meet resistance from military forces is an insult to those who were killed and wounded in the battle.
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Surely what really is insulting to their memory, is that they were used as a public relations tool?
Thatcher did the same in the Falklands, although there we did have international backing since the islands were British territory. Still, the conflict was a gift and did loads for Thatcher's popularity. Having said that though, it was very hard fought for - despite the common view held that it was a walkover. In 'Excursion to Hell', Vincent Bramley (an ex 3-Para) describes how there were US mercenaries there (who, when taken prisoner, were alledgedly executed to spare the blushes of Reagan) and a well equipped Argy special forces detachment. I think we lost 600 men in that action - I'm still in two minds about whether it was justified, since we stole the Falklands in the first place.
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mietla, from actually understanding the concept that most people's egos do not allow them to. Those people living in a "rat hole" are just as important as any American, Canadian, British or any other nationality you can come up with.
"Sure, I love my neighbour, just as long as I don't have to do something for him".
You have the biggest military in the world. Are you threatened by any nation? Does any nation wish to attack you? Does peacekeeping and helping the world become a better place leave you open to attack? Instad of military remaining idle, why don't you do some good with it.
Bush says that he will enlarge the military in an effort to keep the peace through military might. In other words, fighting wars to keep the peace. That's flawed logic, "fighting wars for peace is like having sex for virginity".
Every nation has a responsiblity towards those less blessed. The US just happends to have the most resources to do so. Canada does not have a large army by your standards, yet we are deployed everywhere around the world as Peacekeepers. Why arn't we whining?
------------------
Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
-
CANADA
http://www.dnd.ca/menu/NI/eng/ds_hco_e.htm (http://www.dnd.ca/menu/NI/eng/ds_hco_e.htm)
"Reductions in defence in the 1990s produced the largest-ever downsizing of any organization in Canada in decades. Military personnel, which had already been reduced from a strength of 86,000 in 1989, were cut further from 76,000 in 1994 to the current strength of approximately 60,000. Equally, the Department's civilian workforce has seen reductions from 34,500 in 1994 to less than 20,000 today.
The reductions also resulted in a substantial re-configuration of the supporting infrastructure for the Canadian Forces in Canada through the closure of some two dozen bases and facilities across the country.
At $10.3 billion, the current defence budget represents approximately 1.2% of Canada's Gross Domestic Product.
This is the lowest level of defence spending since before the Second World War[/i]"
The US?
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/dod101/largest.html (http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/dod101/largest.html)
Our annual budget is approximately $280 billion. ( http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn/nipatbls/NIP1-2.HTM (http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn/nipatbls/NIP1-2.HTM) 1999 US GDP 9,037.2 Billion. Therefore, US Defense spending is ~3.1% of GDP, more than DOUBLE that of Canada)
Deployments?[/b}
Canadian Armed Forces
Current Operations updated:September 15, 2000
Location Mission Theatre Personnel
Balkans NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR)
OP PALLADIUM (OP JOINT FORGE)
Bosnia-Herzegovina 1676
***********
United Nations Mission of Observers in Prevlaka
(UNMOP)
Croatia 1
UN Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK)
OP QUADRANT
Kosovo, FRY 110
********
Air Support to NATO forces in the Balkans
OP ECHO
Aviano, Italy 118
************
Middle East UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF)
OP DANACA
Golan Heights 192
************
UN Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP)
OP SNOWGOOSE
Cyprus 2
UN Truce Supervision Organization
OP JADE
Jerusalem 10
***********
Multinational Force and Observers (MFO)
OP CALUMET
Sinai 29
************
UN Special Commission (UNSCOM)
OP FORUM
New York City / Iraq 0
*************
UN Iraq-Kuwait Observation Mission (UNIKOM)
OP RECORD
Iraq & Kuwait 6
************
United States Air Force
(AWACS)
Monitor Iraq no-fly zone 5
**********
Arabian Gulf Deployment
OP AUGMENTATION
HMCS Calgary 235
**************
Africa UN Observer Mission in Sierra Leone (UNOMSIL)
OP REPTILE
Sierra Leone 5
***************
UN Organization Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo (UNOMSIL)
OP CROCODILE
***************
Democratic Republic of Congo 2
United Nations Mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea (UNMEE)
OP ADDITION
Ethiopia and Eritrea 1
**************
Asia / Pacific United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET)
OP TOUCAN
East Timor 3
************
Americas UN Mission in Guatemala (MINUGUA)
OP QUARTZ
Guatemala 1
************
Other NATO's Standing Naval Force Atlantic
STANAVFORLANT
HMCS Fredericton 225
NATO Airborne Early Warning Force
(NAEWF)
Geilenkirchen, Germany 8
Total 2515
Total Foreign Counties = 2515
Total Worldwide = "approximately 60,000"
Canadian Deployed = 4.2%
The US
"We are the nation’s largest employer, with 1.4 million men and women on active duty...another 1.28 million volunteers serving in the Guard and Reserve.
This map reflects our military’s operational tempo from the end of the Cold War through last year -- 99 major commitments of Americans in uniform, both active and reserve, to virtually every corner of the globe. Those marked in yellow are multi-year operations.
(http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/dod101/images/deployments9099.gif)
The impact these commitments have had on our military has been unrelenting -- our Army deployments have increased 300 percent in the past 10 years and in the last six years the number of deployed Navy ships on any given day has increased by 52 percent. And since 1986 the number of Air Force deployments has quadrupled.
These increasing commitments have not only affected our active forces. Last year alone some 235,000 Guardsmen and Reservists, averaging 19 days each, deployed overseas performing duties ranging from humanitarian and peacekeeping missions to readiness training.
ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY PERSONNEL STRENGTHS BY REGIONAL AREA AND BY COUNTRY
September 30, 1998
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/almanac/ (http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/almanac/)
REGIONAL AREA/COUNTRY Total
Army
Navy
Marine Corps
Air Force
United States and Territories
Continental United States (CONUS)
960,817
344,724
202,085
131,040
282,968
Alaska
16,351
6,676
71
128
9,476
Hawaii
34,643
15,133
7,882
7,081
4,547
Guam
3,935
30
1,865
7
2,033
Johnston Atoll
220
205
2
0
13
Puerto Rico
1,970
142
1,763
22
43
U. S. Virgin Islands
5
4
0
0
1
Transients
30,368
7,519
11,695
5,303
5,851
Afloat
98,650
0
98,011
639
0
Total
1,146,959
374,433
323,374
144,220
304,932
Europe
Albania
83
2
0
80
1
Austria
24
7
0
8
9
Belgium*
1,645
994
99
34
518
Bosnia and Herzegovina
6,912
6,900
0
9
3
Bulgaria
11
3
1
5
2
Croatia
119
101
3
4
11
Cyprus
52
3
0
40
9
Czech Republic*
12
2
0
10
0
Denmark*
38
2
9
8
19
Estonia
2
0
1
0
1
Finland
16
2
2
10
2
France*
60
9
10
23
18
Germany*
69,663
55,720
289
181
13,473
Gibraltar
5
0
5
0
0
Greece*
441
10
252
10
169
Greenland*
130
0
0
0
130
Hungary*
1,379
1,357
0
17
5
Iceland*
1,651
3
945
94
609
Ireland
8
2
0
6
0
Italy*
11,519
2,696
4,423
152
4,248
Lithuania
3
1
1
1
0
Luxembourg*
6
6
0
0
0
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of
442
441
0
0
1
Malta
4
0
0
4
0
Netherlands*
685
368
12
14
291
Norway*
96
9
12
17
58
Poland*
24
8
1
10
5
Portugal*
1,033
19
56
23
935
Romania
9
0
1
5
3
Serbia
37
35
0
0
2
Slovenia
1
0
0
0
1
Spain*
3,219
5
2,878
98
238
Sweden
106
1
1
98
6
Switzerland
21
1
2
13
5
Turkey*
2,518
312
15
19
2,172
United Kingdom*
10,156
378
1,177
178
8,423
Afloat
4,314
0
2,161
2,153
0
Total
116,444
69,397
12,356
3,324
31,367
Former Soviet Union
Armenia
1
1
0
0
0
Azerbaijan
1
1
0
0
0
Belarus
4
2
0
2
0
Georgia
1
1
0
0
0
Kazakhstan
9
3
0
6
0
Kyrgyzstan
1
1
0
0
0
Russia
56
12
17
26
1
Ukraine
15
5
2
2
6
Uzbekistan
1
1
0
0
0
Total
89
27
19
36
7
East Asia and Pacific
Australia
322
10
39
15
258
Burma
9
2
0
6
1
Cambodia
2
2
0
0
0
China
53
9
10
29
5
Indonesia
41
7
20
9
5
Japan
40,364
1,799
5,626
19,184
13,755
Korea, Republic of
36,890
27,918
287
105
8,580
Laos
3
1
0
0
2
Malaysia
17
4
2
6
5
Marshall Islands
27
27
0
0
0
New Zealand
6
2
2
0
2
Philippines
29
9
4
8
8
Singapore
152
6
89
17
40
Thailand
124
40
8
42
34
Vietnam
14
4
0
7
3
Afloat
17,627
0
15,525
2,102
0
Total
95,680
29,840
21,612
21,530
22,698
North Africa, Near East, and South Asia
Algeria
8
2
0
5
1
Bahrain
916
15
667
216
18
Bangladesh
7
2
0
5
0
Diego Garcia
715
10
685
0
20
Egypt
1,041
918
32
26
65
India
21
4
3
10
4
Iraq
3
3
0
0
0
Israel
35
4
4
16
11
Jordan
35
13
0
16
6
Kuwait
3,921
1,933
12
146
1,830
Lebanon
2
2
0
0
0
Morocco
11
2
1
5
3
Nepal
5
0
0
5
0
Oman
97
4
0
10
83
Pakistan
22
4
2
11
5
Qatar
25
23
0
0
2
Saudi Arabia
4,873
737
24
44
4,068
Sri Lanka
5
0
1
4
0
Syria
10
4
0
6
0
Tunisia
14
3
2
6
3
United Arab Emirates
313
4
6
6
297
Western Sahara
1
0
0
1
0
Yemen
8
1
0
7
0
Afloat
15,781
0
15,781
0
0
Total
27,869
3,688
17,220
545
6,416
Sub-Saharan Africa
Angola
2
2
0
0
0
Botswana
5
2
0
3
0
Burundi
4
0
0
4
0
Cameroon
7
2
0
4
1
Chad
9
3
0
6
0
Congo (Kinshasa)
10
3
0
6
1
Cote D'Ivoire
23
3
1
17
2
Djibouti
3
3
0
0
0
Ethiopia
7
2
0
5
0
Ghana
7
2
0
5
0
Guinea
5
0
0
5
0
Kenya
86
14
1
69
2
Liberia
7
1
0
5
1
Mali
6
0
0
6
0
Mozambique
7
0
0
7
0
Niger
6
0
0
6
0
Nigeria
11
1
0
8
2
Rwanda
2
2
0
0
0
Senegal
8
2
1
5
0
Somalia
231
231
0
0
0
South Africa
34
3
1
27
3
St. Helena (Includes Ascension Island)
2
0
0
0
2
Tanzania, United Republic of
8
0
0
8
0
Togo
6
0
0
6
0
Uganda
6
0
0
6
0
Zambia
5
0
0
5
0
Zimbabwe
8
3
0
5
0
Total
515
279
4
218
14
Western Hemisphere
Antigua
2
0
0
0
2
Argentina
27
4
7
8
8
Bahamas, The
24
0
19
5
0
Barbados
7
1
0
6
0
Belize
1
1
0
0
0
Bolivia
23
8
1
9
5
Brazil
36
5
5
20
6
Canada
156
17
57
0
82
Chile
21
4
3
9
5
Colombia
30
11
1
13
5
Costa Rica
8
2
0
6
0
Cuba (Guantanamo)
1,348
145
671
531
1
Dominican Republic
11
1
1
8
1
Ecuador
367
355
1
6
5
El Salvador
21
9
0
11
1
Guatemala
16
7
0
8
1
Haiti
356
300
0
56
0
Honduras
594
402
1
11
180
Jamaica
8
1
1
6
0
Mexico
25
6
4
11
4
Nicaragua
9
3
0
5
1
Panama
4,694
2,622
102
258
1,712
Paraguay
10
3
0
6
1
Peru
26
4
3
13
6
Suriname
2
2
0
0
0
Trinidad and Tobago
7
0
0
7
0
Uruguay
9
1
0
7
1
Venezuela
28
8
2
9
9
Afloat
2,920
0
2,669
251
0
Total
10,786
3,922
3,548
1,280
2,036
Undistributed
Ashore
8,216
2,294
3,933
1,989
0
Afloat
272
0
272
0
0
Total
8,488
2,294
4,205
1,989
0
Total - Foreign Countries
259,871
109,447
58,964
28,922
62,538
Ashore
218,957
109,447
22,556
24,416
62,538
Afloat
40,914
0
36,408
4,506
0
*NATO Countries
104,275
61,898
10,178
888
31,311
Forward Deployment Pacific Theater
100,610
30,095
24,170
21,572
24,773
Total - Worldwide
1,406,830
483,880
382,338
173,142
367,470
Ashore
1,267,266
483,880
247,919
167,997
367,470
Afloat
139,564
0
134,419
5,145
0
Total - Foreign Countries = 259,871
Total - Worldwide = 1,406,830
US deployed = ~ 18.5%
**************
There, now that we have the FACTS straight, we can look at some OPINION. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Igloo:Every nation has a responsiblity towards those less blessed. The US just happends to have the most resources to do so. Canada does not have a large army by your standards, yet we are deployed everywhere around the world as Peacekeepers. Why arn't we whining? Igloo End Quote
Simple explanation.
At $10.3 billion, the current defence budget represents approximately 1.2% of Canada's Gross Domestic Product.
Our annual budget is approximately $280 billion. 1999 US GDP 9,037.2 Billion. Therefore, US Defense spending is ~3.1% of GDP, nearly TRIPLE that of Canada)
Canadian Military Deployed = 4.2%
US Military deployed = ~ 18.5%
Pretty easy to see why you folks are "not whining". Any info on when you are going to pick up your fair share of the "responsiblity towards those less blessed"?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Igloo:
Those people living in a "rat hole" are just as important as any American, Canadian, British or any other nationality you can come up with.
I never said they are less important, what I said is that we as a nation owe them nothing. Most of the "rat hole" people are there becase they've dug it for themselves, and they are ready to bite a helping hand. Would you like to see a naked, lifeless body of your son dragged and kicked by a mob in Somalia.
If you as an individual feel that you should help, please feel free to do so (and I'll admire that), but leave the decision whether I (or my family) should participate to me.
Does peacekeeping and helping the world become a better place leave you open to attack? Instad of military remaining idle, why don't you do some good with it.
[/b]
You seem to completely misunderstand the role of the military. The military has only one purpose, the national defence. Their elegiance is to this nation, and nobody else.
Every nation is ultimately responsible for their destiny.
BTW, do you think that Somalia is a "better place" now, after all those Americans dead?
Every nation has a responsiblity towards those less blessed.
[/b]
Again, not true. This nation is not blessed. Everything what we have, has been produced with hard work, sacrifice and blood by generations before us.
You are talking like Dick Gephard for whom the people who have money "have won a lottery of life". What a shameless crap.
Only a politician or a complete looser envious of other people's success can say a thing like that.
We haven't won anything, we have worked very hard for it and we owe nothing to anyone.
Nothing bugs me more that a do-gooder who is trying to make the world a "better place", using my time, my money, and my life, but his definition of what the "better place" means.
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 10-18-2000).]
-
As far as "learning to fly jets, dangerous ones", I doubt *anyone* of us would give up an opportunity to "patriotically defend our country, taking huge risks flying jet planes".
Hell, that's not a job. It ain't even patriotic. It'd be FUN.
Well, I don't think Dean Martin's (You remember the enertainer) family would agree. Ya see Dean Martin's son died flyin F-4 phantoms for the California Air National Guard.
It don't matter if your famous or rich, flyin high performance military aircraft is a dangerous job and people do die.
------------------
ezdoc
48th Fighter Group "Checkertails"
-
"As far as "learning to fly jets, dangerous ones", I doubt *anyone* of us would give up an opportunity to "patriotically defend our country, taking huge risks flying jet planes".
Hell, that's not a job. It ain't even patriotic. It'd be FUN." - StSanta
Well, I don't think Dean Martin's (You remember the enertainer) family would agree. Ya see Dean Martin's son died flyin F-4 phantoms for the California Air National Guard.
It don't matter if your famous or rich, flyin high performance military aircraft is a dangerous job and people do die.
------------------
ezdoc
48th Fighter Group "Checkertails"
-
Mietla - you're wrong about not being blessed. North America and Europe have grown so advanced because of the abundance of natural resources around them. Without these, a foundation for progress wouldn't exist. The poor countries in Africa have few natural resources at their disposal (dry arid, desert environments that can only support nomadic societies, rather than a settled, stable population). They are more dependent on the unpredictability of nature.
They are also victims of exploitation, which stunted their growth further.
A lot of people who have money have been born into an environment in which they had support to succeed. There are always exceptions, however, but it is true that someone born in, say, Germany will be more wealthy than someone born in Sudan. This an indisputable fact.