Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on April 17, 2006, 11:26:22 AM
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The aircraft is simply the most advanced ever built. There is nothing on earth to touch it. In simulated dogfights it has wiped the floor with the opposition. In one such encounter, six F-15 Eagle air-superiority fighters — which the Raptor is replacing and which has a perfect combat record of 101 victories with zero defeats — were sent up to “kill” a single Raptor. All six were shot down.
A bit of perspective is needed here. The Eagle is the most lethal air-superiority fighter in the US arsenal and its pilots are the best in the world.
One of those “aura” pilots I was talking about earlier is Lieutenant-Colonel Paul Huffman, the commander of the 64th Aggressor Squadron.
The Aggressors are the dogfighting experts of the US Air Force. In aerial combat training they act as the “enemy”. It’s their job to give the opposing fighter jocks a hard time. It’s also their job to “kill” them. A sort of baptism of fire — a wake-up call.
Huffman and his hot-shots were sent up against the Raptor. I’ll let him finish the story.
“We still joke about our missions against the Raptor, because they can be fairly boring.
“We fly to the [designated combat] range. Die. Go to the tanker [to refuel]. Go back out to the range. Die. Go back to the tanker. Go back out. Die. After the third time we go home.”
Same thing the next day, and the next.
As Huffman told Code One magazine, the 64th flew almost 300 sorties against the Raptors “and we never once got to merge [make visual contact] against a single Raptor”.
Another hard-assed air combat supremo, Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Garland, a former F-15 Eagle pilot and now a Raptor jockey, told Code One magazine: “Six adversaries provide a good workout for two F-15 Eagle pilots. But for two Raptors, defeating six adversaries is about as difficult as eating breakfast. We [Raptor pilots] don’t even break a sweat.”
So what is it that makes the R800-million Raptor so special? In a word, technology. Stealth technology in the main, supported by mighty engines with supercruise ability, thrust vectoring agility and integrated avionics.
What all this means is that you can’t see the damned thing. It can go faster than sound without afterburner flames coming out of its backside and it has nozzles at the rear that make it turn on a tickey.
It also flies higher, faster and further than any other fighter in the world and all its weapons are tucked away in bays in its stealth-faceted fuselage.
When needed, a variety of missiles pop out and scream off towards the hapless enemy, who has no clue that he has just seconds left to live.
The problem with the Raptor, for its enemies, is that it can’t be seen on radar. Opposing fighters rely on their radar to pick up bogeys, which they chase until they get a visual on the aircraft. Also, because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.
So how do you fight something you can’t see, fire at or out-turn? The short answer is: you don’t. You just die.
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Poor eagle drivers, been a different story with vipers ;)
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because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.
Thats a bit over simplified.....you do not need an afterburner flame to use an AIM 9.........
I doubt very much that the raptor engines dont have an ir signature that a heat seaking missile can track
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Originally posted by Krusher
and its pilots are the best in the world.
So sayith we all.
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Originally posted by expat
because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.
Thats a bit over simplified.....you do not need an afterburner flame to use an AIM 9.........
I doubt very much that the raptor engines dont have an ir signature that a heat seaking missile can track
Yeah, but that's the point. No radar signature means you have to visually ID it. It has datalinks and phased array radar available, it's knows where you're at. During the day, getting visual on it is going to be next to impossible even for an all-aspect IR missle attack. During the night... well... good luck. Hooray for the culmination of Cold War technology?
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A good friend of mine, an ex Eagle driver and Vietnam F-4 pilot told me that the Raptor is quite simply the best aircraft ever built. While I argue that the Hellcat fits that bill, he is firmly convinced that the Raptor has no opponent that can touch it.
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Ok, so the Raptors fire medium range BVR missiles en masse and downs 6 F-15's. That*is* impressive, no matter how you turn it about.
The Raptor has to acquire its targets. I assume they use radar for this - long enough to unload (and if AMRAAMS at long range, initially guide) the missiles. The radar will give off their general vicinity and alert the F15's to their presence but won't provide enough info for them to use their own medium range missiles. It's smart fighting.
What I'd love to see is a 6 v 1 dogfight though. People have said for a long times that dogfights are of an era past, even going so far as to removing guns on some types of aircraft. And putting them back on when it turned out they were needed after all.
Are there any official results from F-15 vs F-22 dogfights? F-22's superiority in BVR is more a less a "DUH!" thing. In visual range fighting, its edge on the opposition is a good deal smaller - even with thrust vectoring. In this environment, the enemy can actually shoot back and use numerical superiority for something.
And given that Europeans and Russians have put some effort in more advanced short range IR missiles, targetting systems and so on, I seriously think that a Raptor would be in trouble fighting 6 enemy planes with this technology at the same time (dogfighting, not long distance plonking).
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F-22 beware the Mig15, Yeah baby!
I love the F22 have for years but I gots ta axe, how will the F22 wage war against the islamofacists suiciders?
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Heheh yeah Yeager, after shooting down the first 50 MiG-15's, expending all missiles and gun ammo, it'll have t try to maneuver so that the MiGs end up colliding with each other.
The MiGs need only worry about running out of fuel. And they don't have to RTB.
I guess that means the F-22 will have to tuck its tail behind its legs and RTB sooner or later :D
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Originally posted by Yeager
F-22 beware the Mig15, Yeah baby!
I love the F22 have for years but I gots ta axe, how will the F22 wage war against the islamofacists suiciders?
Increasing immigration into European countries leading to a slow, but steady replacement of government until they have the majority. They assume the leadership of European nations and their militaries. Political purges and "restaffing" ensues, taking possession of the nation's military hardware. A cartoon is drawn in MS paint and posted on a blog hosted in America. War breaks out.
....
:noid
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Originally posted by StSanta
Are there any official results from F-15 vs F-22 dogfights? F-22's superiority in BVR is more a less a "DUH!" thing. In visual range fighting, its edge on the opposition is a good deal smaller - even with thrust vectoring. In this environment, the enemy can actually shoot back and use numerical superiority for something.
Sounds like it'd do okay to me.
The F-22 was designed so that the Raptor is capable of reaching an extreme angle of attack while still under the pilot's full control. The objective was "carefree abandon" handling, allowing the pilot to exploit a very large alpha/airspeed envelope without losing control of the aircraft. The Raptors is also immune to deep stalls and recover from high alphas, post-stall condition with both engine out and even in post-stall.
But on the bright side, the F-22 does out perform against the Euro Fighter, the French Rafael and the Russian made SU-37 in thrust/weight ratio, wing loading at combat weight, internal fuel and flight limits.
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Sure, but does it have heart?
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Very very expensive flying emmental :)
http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-guns-down-f-22a-update.html
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Heh, take a look at the Hornet's airspeed.
J_A_B
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And the flamefest of comments from the previous screen grab
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Let me guess, 20 AOA, 179 knots and 1.7G, were they really mockfighting?
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F-22 is the United States top fighter/attack aircraft
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Originally posted by Yeager
F-22 beware the Mig15, Yeah baby!
I love the F22 have for years but I gots ta axe, how will the F22 wage war against the islamofacists suiciders?
Don't mock it... back when NZ was still part of ANZUS we had a couple of our decrepid Skyhawks make fools of some eagle jocks. It turns out our scooters were so old, so lacking in anything 'avionic', combined with a small visual signiture they found it easy to bounce the eagles.
How would an F-22 do if one of those souped up Mig-21 snuck up its 6 with an IR missile? The tech can take you so far, at the end of the day its gonna be down to the pilot, his wingie, and/or the awac's telling them theres a mig crawling up their backsides.
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so lets take things 50 year into the furture.....
stealth tech has advanced to the point where all aircraft have the capabilities of the raptor, and A2A missles become more and more dificult to use....
are we going to see a gradual phazing back in of dogfights using guns as the primary weapon??
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50 years from now, the skies will be empty.
Flying fighting will be down at the tree tops, with unmanned drones. Fleets of thousands of them doing close support operating against any troops caught out in the open, plus knocking each other down.
Any plane that enters an engagement zone would have to avoid radar, thermal, RF, Magnetic, and who knows what other types of tracking. Mass-based? Missiles will get so sophisticated that they'll be able to disregard any amount of jinking and countermeasures will be ineffective.
Counter-missile defenses will evolve in-step with this, and eventually the missiles will be mostly neutralized, but will then be replaced by the next step:
First, let me preface this by suggesting that MBTs and Artillery will be combined into the same vehicle. All of the tanks/fighting vehicles in the theater will be networked together. Any aircraft entering the zone would be tracked by ground units who would instruct any units ahead to fire inert or fin-guided rounds to intercept the plane. Inert rounds would be able to take out level flying planes without triggering their missile detectors (no thermal bloom), rounds with fins for terminal guidance would be able to deal with maneuvering targets. Again, no easy IR detection of the incoming rounds.
Out over the water, maybe there'll still be room for fighting, but even then, I'm guessing swarms of drones.
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good call, forgot them.
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So in essence if the raptor relies on awacs to spot its targets, the awacs becomes the kill priority number one. After that is gone the raptor is reduced to using it's own radar which can be tracked.
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Except f22 radar is not easy to track.
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stsanta,
You make some assumptions that are not valid. That's about all I'll say about that :)
The F-22 is not an evolutionary design. It represents a true revolution, just like the original F-15 was a true revolution in air superiority. The SU-27 family is a great design, but it's not current-generation.
I personally see only 2 F-22 weaknesses. The first is that it carries no more missiles than an F-15. I personally think that this is a serious limiting factor. Second, the reliance on computers and software both gives it a MASSIVE advantage against any other non-US integrated warfighting system, and an equally massive achilles heel. IMHO the F-22 NEEDS a gun and a manual backup flight control system. We've already lost one F-22 when the all-digital flight control system wasn't working, and lack of redundancy is a weakness in combat.
When it comes down to it, that proverbial mig-15 actually is one of the F-22's greatest threats. That's something that needs to be recognized and it's why the limited F-22 purchase and early production line closure disturbs me.
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Im sure these pilots are told not to give the F-22 any bad press out. When the Air Force is trying to buy these planes, it is not good for the pilots to say anything negative. IF they did, they might find themselves on the bottom of the promotion list.
Probably 50% truth and 50% garbage.
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Swager,
As someone who's fairly close to that fight, I'd guess it's closer to 95% truth and 5% BS. The F-22 successfully addresses things the F-15 community has been wanting for decades, and in my opinion it's the right plane at the right time. Yea it costs a lot but having the best always carries a price premium.
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The big question is “How long will stealth technology keep us at the top?” I’m sure we have some type of advanced radar that can detect our stealth aircraft. Manufacturers of Law Enforcement Radar and Laser Speed Estimation Equipment are normally the same manufacturers of Radar and Laser Detectors. How soon before foreign countries can detect our stealth aircraft?
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Originally posted by EN4CER
The big question is “How long will stealth technology keep us at the top?” I’m sure we have some type of advanced radar that can detect our stealth aircraft. Manufacturers of Law Enforcement Radar and Laser Speed Estimation Equipment are normally the same manufacturers of Radar and Laser Detectors. How soon before foreign countries can detect our stealth aircraft?
Kinda sorta, but not. Moore's law applies to both the radar and the stealth. Stealth is based on shape and materials, a million little triangles that appear smooth. As computing power increases, while more powerful radar is created, stealth design is also refined further & further with more elaborate computer modelling and more advanced flight control systems.
As for an F-22 being in danger with no AWACS support.. well, with datalinks, a lone F-22 can function as the AWACS for its local airspace, using a phased array radar with a 200 mile range. If you see me with my radar on, but you're still 100-150 miles away (with multiple F-15s, F-16s, & Raptors in between us)... well, sucks to be you.
Watch, next thing you know, an F-22 is going to lock something up, sort the target, and a 747 with a frikkin' laser beam for a nose is going to start popping fighters while they climb out. I see that happening before drones. I watched a laser test firing that burned a huge hole in a sheet of titanium, and they claim to be able to shoot down missles... so why not just point it at a fighter?
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the F22 carries a gun.
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As Huffman told Code One magazine, the 64th flew almost 300 sorties against the Raptors “and we never once got to merge [make visual contact] against a single Raptor”.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard. Pressing the fire button at 30 miles, turning back and declaring simulated victory is retarded.
In real life the other side will have its own electronics and not always the kind you know about. Radar guided missiles are much simpler to jam and misguide than heat seekers, not to mention that you get a lot more time for it.
Not saying the F22 isn't that good, but this is hardly any kind of a test.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
In real life the other side will have its own electronics and not always the kind you know about. Radar guided missiles are much simpler to jam and misguide than heat seekers, not to mention that you get a lot more time for it.
Again, kinda-sorta, but not. Okay, imagine this scenario... you've got a package of 8 Su-27s somewhere near the bullseye position covered by a flight of F-22s. lead F-22 starts collecting target data, the other 3 position on the sides & above. Target sorts are passed out & F-22s move to a-pole (extremely high Pk shots). A quick & clever sort will send 2 missles at each target, but from different directions (datalinks & the software make it really easy). 2 out of 3 directions means instant death for anybody in your flight, and those that pick the right way still have to deal with multiple high Pk missles. If you turn on your jammer, the missles go HOJ, and you die. Jammers are to prevent them from being able to bug you at range. Once inside of 20 miles it becomes a liability against both Eastern & Western missles with HOJ capability. Only stealth & speed can defeat those. A hard break to put them abeam is only going to buy you a few seconds at best at this range and chaff/ir bundles are your only savior, but there's still 3 bored Raptor pilots with AIM-9X missles on a trapeeze launcher. Somebody might see the raptor on radar very briefly during the missle launch, but you're still destined to be a kill marking. First look, first shot, first kill is going to win 99% of the time, and that's the best odds air combat has ever seen.
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Model it for the MA and it will STILL get out run by the La-7 or PWN3D by the "HO Monster" 109/nikki potatos
:lol
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You left out the Hoicane.
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Originally posted by eagl
IMHO the F-22 NEEDS a gun and a manual backup flight control system.
Let's hope our enemies haven't developed any EMP technology.
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why are we even putting pilots in the planes anymore. Surely they can hook up some kind of gear that will manipulate the controls back to someone like you or me sitting at a computer terminal just like they do with the drones the cia and army uses. Right now we are at the limits of flight because the human pilot inside cannot take the extreme G's that these newer AC are capable of doing....
Next question would be can the F22 fire the phoenix missile that the F14 was so famous for. ( I think it's a phoenix, the missile that can be fired from over 50 miles away from the old F14 and still hit an enemy plane over the curvature of the earth with no visual ID )
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No, the F-22 cannot fire the phoenix.
Didja know that F-15s have shot down satellites in orbit? F-22 can't do that either.
Great plane, but different missions have different needs.
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do we currently have a plane that can fire the phoenix ?
If not what the heck are we doing then, that seemed like the best idea we ever had for A to A combat. I'm not sure if the F15's are still being made, I know theres only one base in the US now that trains F15 pilots and its in Oregon I think.... Of coarse when the crap hits the fan we'll just waste everybody elses planes while there still on the ground with our GPS guided bombs and cruise missiles so I guess its all good :)
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No Phoenix launching planes currently deployed. It's a great technology, but probably less effective against modern fighters than its original target: soviet bombers.
Heck, I say mount two AMRAAMs on a Phoenix booster stage. Booster takes 'em up and puts them on a parabola to the target, then the AMRAAMs independantly acquire and deploy while coming down. With datalink, it's just a matter of time before the firing plane would be able to provide acquisition targeting data to medium/short range missiles from far away.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Didja know that F-15s have shot down satellites in orbit? F-22 can't do that either.
And why not? F22 has optinal wing hardpoints that should be able to take anything in the arsenal.
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Problem is, it ain't in the arsenal any more. :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon
Here's a pic of an F-15 launching an ASAT missile:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ASAT_missile_launch.jpg
Actually, I don't know if it could carry it or not. I'll go check.
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i like your idea about the ameraam's :)
Another thing I have always wondered, why don't we mount at least 1 or 2 missiles backwards, so when a con gets on there 6... bang there dead... if it can't be launched like that how about a twin 20mm canon with an automated targeting system mounted backwards.... do I have to think of everything :)
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No debating that the F-22 is a great plane, I just don't buy into its cost-effectiveness. No matter how high a quality it may be, there is a certain minimum number of air superiority aircraft the USAF needs to cover all its bases. There were never enough Eagles. Now they will be replaced by even fewer Raptors.
The Raptor will have a hard time beating the Eagle's kill ratio (100+ kills to no Air-to-Air losses = infinity ;)).
Based on my experience with submarine exercises, I would take the results of any exercise with a grain of salt. Exercises usually have a desired outcome and are tailored to get that outcome one way or another. It just wouldn't do to show that a handful of subsonic bombers flying on the deck could get past a Raptor while a handful of conventional fighters escorting them could potentially ambush and kill the Raptor. It makes a much better show to fly high in clear blue skies and show how well the radar and missiles work when the targets are co-operating ;) Early tests showed that F-4s would score about 50% with their Sparrows and render dogfighting a thing of the past just prior to Vietnam. It took over 20 years for the technology to mature enough for the real world results to catch up to the exercises.
I was on AGSS-555 USS Dolphin helping to test Mk50 torpedoes that were supposed to be able to hit diesel submarines running silent in shallow water. In our tests, the Mk50 found us and hit us (passing about 50 feet above our sail) about 1 out of 3 shots... not bad considering the conditions. The exercise required us to do the by-the-book response: put the torpedo on our stern quarter and run. However, one of the torpedo engineers riding us asked what I would really do as a sonar supervisor if I was faced with a torpedo coming at me. I told him that I would give it my beam to kill the doppler shift and either skim the sea bottom at a low speed or if the weather was stormy, stay just beneath the waves to mask my passive and active signature with surface and/or bottom clutter. He said there was no way he could modify the search and track programs to handle that. The tests proved that the torpedo was more successful than any weapon before it, but if we were permitted to take the correct evasive action, the torpedo would never have detected us much less hit us. The test also neglected one very important consideration: if a diesel submarine was running on the battery in these conditions, how would they ever find it to drop a torpedo in the first place ;) On the range, they got the equivalent of a data link giving our exact position so that they could drop the torpedo on a line to guarantee it would intercept us and have a chance to detect us.
I can only imagine the constraints placed on the exercise that leaves the Eagles who have never been shot down in combat getting stomped by the F-22. To fire AIM-120's, something has to have a good track on the Eagle and the Eagle should be able to detect and spoof whatever is trying to track it. Submarines have had special stealthy active pulses that were classified, but the acoustic intercept equipment carried on every US submarine could reliably detect them. The US military would be foolish if they didn't expect the enemy to use similar radar technology to the F-22 and provide our ESM/ECM systems with the capability to defeat it.
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eagl,
Suppose an F-15 does win one: How would that shake down? Could the raptor miss with one missile and the F-15 kill it with guns visually?
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Originally posted by indy007
2 out of 3 directions means instant death for anybody in your flight, and those that pick the right way still have to deal with multiple high Pk missles. If you turn on your jammer, the missles go HOJ, and you die. Jammers are to prevent them from being able to bug you at range. Once inside of 20 miles it becomes a liability against both Eastern & Western missles with HOJ capability. Only stealth & speed can defeat those.
The problem is that you give way too much credit to guided missiles. Yes, they are better than ever but so are the counter measures. EW is not something you hear about because it is very much a technological secret and a "suprise" each coutry saves for its opponents. I can assure you some of the modern stuff can do funny things to even the best radars... and very funny things if they are tylored to the specific type of radar :)
AIM7s of various models performed miserably in 1982 over Lebanon vs. quite primitive EW (but so were the missiles). Out of the 82 Sirian planes shot down, quite a few were shot with the good old 20mm cannon after missiles missed.
The ballance between modern guidance systems and counter measures is not well tested and even less advertised. BVR missiles do give a big advantage in entering the fight (maybe even downing a few) but they are far FAR from a certain kill.
In addition, real war is not 4 planes having free range over a 100x100 miles area. There could be tens to hundreds of planes in the area, both high and low, poping in and out of radar coverage and lots lots of electro-magnetic interference. In that case, by the time you sort friend from foe, the distance has been closed.
Bozon
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When's the first Red Flag exercise involving F-22s and Eurofighter Typhoons? That would be interesting given RAF pilot quality dominance in 'inferior' aircraft demonstrated in the past? :aok
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Originally posted by eskimo2
eagl,
Suppose an F-15 does win one: How would that shake down? Could the raptor miss with one missile and the F-15 kill it with guns visually?
Before they get close enough the F15 has to first "see" it's target. Then they have to burn a truck load of fuel to catch it. Then they have to try and manuver into a fire position. That's alot of ifs.
And FWIW the 22 DOES have a gun and it can carry external hardpoints while losing alot of stealthyness/manuverability.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And why not? F22 has optinal wing hardpoints that should be able to take anything in the arsenal.
F-22 can go to higher altitudes than the F-15
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The F-22 is the modern-day P-38. It's a great airplane that's too expensive for its own good. We'll never build enough F-22's to satisfy our overall needs, and we'll end up building something else to make up the difference.
J_A_B
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F-22 link 1 (http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/f-22_raptor.pl)
F-22 link 2 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm)
F-22 Lockheed Martin page (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11174)
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...like the JSF.
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The F-35 JSF is going to be to the F-22 what the Virginia Class submarine is to the Seawolf.
Thoughts?
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Stealth: Greatly increases survivability and lethality by denying the enemy critical information required to successfully attack the F-22
F-22 is superior to any fighter technology wise:aok
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
F-22 is superior to any fighter technology wise:aok
Price wise also :) .
BUT - Its instantaneous turn rate is inferior to the Typhoon.
F-22 has better sustained turn, this may change when the Typhoon gets thrust vectoring later on.
Shaking F15's seems to be becoming common.
This happened when a Typhoon trainer was 'bounced'.
IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America's best fighter plane and shoot it down.
A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.
For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.
The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.
The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.
But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.
The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Price wise also :) .
BUT - Its instantaneous turn rate is inferior to the Typhoon.
F-22 has better sustained turn, this may change when the Typhoon gets thrust vectoring later on.
[/B]
Hopefully if Tranche 3 goes ahead it might finally get seen in another 10 years, later than scheduled.
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IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America's best fighter plane and shoot it down.
A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.
For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.
The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.
The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.
But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.
The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.
Sounds like a case of extreme over confidence on the part of the F-15 pilots. No way should 2 fully trained pilots get beaten by (presumably) a pilot in training.
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It's an urban legend. Take it for what it's worth... Mostly nothing.
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Eagl, what's your opinion about Cdr Nigel 'Sharkey' Ward's (*) claim that the sea-harrier performed extremely well in dogfight against the agressor's squadron and different US F-15 squadrons? I d'like to hear about the other side ;)
(*) for those who haven't heard about him, Ward was commanding Fleet Air Arm 801 Squadron during the Falklands War.
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deSelys, I won't answer for eagl but that realy depends on the kind of fight. If you are talking about close range dogfight, even an old, well flown, skyhawk will give F15s a hard time. So I guess the Harrier can too in that situation.
But the F15 will put the skyhawks on the defense right from the start and be able to disengage at will. I remember 1 incident in the IAF where in 2 vs. 2 dogfight the F15s blasted through from under the hawks pulled vertically to over 40k (from 20k) and circled above. The poor hawks can't reach that high and were threatening the F15s that if they don't come down and fight, they will leave :)
Bozon
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deselys
It always depends on the rules used during these training fights.
If there are no rules, the F-15 usually wins, even when outnumbered, because the F-15 is a purebred, fully integrated air dominance SYSTEM. That is the sort of dominance the USAF expects to get from the F-22 against the latest generation of fighters plus the next generation of either manned or unmanned airborn weapons systems.
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...was just surfing teh 'net looking for photos of B-15 & B-19.
somehow i came up on these as well.
good looking pictures of F-22 in formation with some older fighters from an AF web site:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060305-F-3177P-151.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060304-F-2295B-141.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060304-F-2295B-110.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060304-F-2295B-166.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060303-F-8769P-011.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060305-F-3177P-036.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060305-F-3177P-148.jpg
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Originally posted by J_A_B
The F-22 is the modern-day P-38. It's a great airplane that's too expensive for its own good. We'll never build enough F-22's to satisfy our overall needs, and we'll end up building something else to make up the difference.
J_A_B
p38 wasnt all that good you know:)
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I'd like to see JSFs vs. Raptors. That could be a cool fight. While the F-22 has a lower RCS, thrust vectoring, and supercruise, the JSF has an amazing cockpit that can correlate an incredible amount of data, plus similar generation technology.
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i'd like to see them compete on "Jeopardy!"
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Link from combatsim.com
http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2006/04/why_is_this_man.html#more
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'd like to see JSFs vs. Raptors. That could be a cool fight. While the F-22 has a lower RCS, thrust vectoring, and supercruise, the JSF has an amazing cockpit that can correlate an incredible amount of data, plus similar generation technology.
I was fortunate to have a go on a JSF flight sim a few years ago. Lots of displays, helmet information system, cameras all around the aircraft etc., it then made me realise you don't need pilots anymore because the amount of information coming in could easily be transmitted to a guy on the ground flying the aircraft. Cool set up though. They had three huge screens infront & either side of the simulator cockpit! :)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The F-35 JSF is going to be to the F-22 what the Virginia Class submarine is to the Seawolf.
Thoughts?
I would say an equal comparison is that it would be what the F16 is to the F15. Both jets are very veristile and with good tactics very deadly.
I will be curious if the JSF is going to fufill the multiple roles that the different variations of the F16 does today. (IE the F16CJ, CG) Will there be a JSF varient (of any of the three current varients) that does anti-air suppression?
The biggest thing is bot the JSF and raptor are "next-gen" technoligy. When the F15 was designed they took all the good things pilots liked/needed and built a jet around them. The same has happened with these two new A/C.
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Originally posted by Debonair
i'd like to see them compete on "Jeopardy!"
Your mother's a potato, Trebek!
Anal Bum Cover for $500 please.