Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SgtDibs on April 18, 2006, 08:43:37 PM
-
Is it just me or is the 50 cals on a P51-D useless. I swear it's like firing 22 cal rounds. My past military experiance is you put two or three 50 cal rounds in something, it's pretty well toast. Has AH altered the effectiveness Skuzzy? I'm sure it's been covered before, but what the heck, I ain't no forum jukie.:huh :cry
-
Well ask about the folks who fly German planes putting 20 rounds of 20mm of MG151/20 into La5s and La7s and flying off as if nothing happened same goes for P-51s.
-
You are aware that the P-51D comes with a 4 x 50 cal option? make sure you have 6 selected in the hanger. Set conv to 250 for all guns. I dont get the complaints about 50s in AH, they saw fighters in 1/2 easily.
-
Even the 4x.50 cal will make a real mess of a fighter in here if you get a good shot in.
-
Aim where it hurts. Engines, cockpit, tail. Aiming for a center body-mass rather than important components can lead to wasted ammo.
-
Set your convergience, and then shoot at your convergience.
Often takes a 1 second burst to saw through a wing or tail.
Also keep all your rounds hitting in the SAME PLACE!
Most planes can take 3 - 4 seconds of fire if its scattered from this wingtip to that, front to back etc.
When you can see your getting hits is NOT the time to conserve ammo.
If your behind him, and hitting him hold the trigger down till he dies!
Then see if you have enough left for another kill or if its RTB time.
-
Originally posted by Squire
You are aware that the P-51D comes with a 4 x 50 cal option? make sure you have 6 selected in the hanger. Set conv to 250 for all guns. I dont get the complaints about 50s in AH, they saw fighters in 1/2 easily.
How often do you fly 51-D's. Not much I'm sure. A 50 cal is a 50 cal. A short burst in a wing or rudder should be enough to cripple or destroy. Doesn't happen. I'm not the greatest dogfighter but as Popoeye say's " I's Knows what I's knows" Think if AH made it as effective as it should be, everybody would be in a 51.
:D
-
Originally posted by SgtDibs
How often do you fly 51-D's. Not much I'm sure. A 50 cal is a 50 cal. A short burst in a wing or rudder should be enough to cripple or destroy. Doesn't happen. I'm not the greatest dogfighter but as Popoeye say's " I's Knows what I's knows" Think if AH made it as effective as it should be, everybody would be in a 51.
:D
Don't know bout all that but... got 5 kills in a B model last night ( no vulches). 50s are just fine set convergence to 400 and let her rip.
I am no uber pilot either so if i can do it anyone can.
Ohh and no luck hitting the tails i go for wings when i get a good shot.
Bronk
-
Have to consider that the planes you fire at are 6.000 to 16.000 lbs for a fighter... its not that they are made of paper. Also its a lot of coverd structure, so you can shoot through the cover without doing much damage at all.
-
Everything i fly got 6 50 cals. And sometimes it works sometimes it dont. I remember to fightin in paticular. A spit 16(dweeb) was tryin to cross my face and i punched his wing off clean(thats how they should work all the time). ANother fight was wit a zero, i came in on his top left and drew a start line from has left wing through the cockpit all the way down the right wing. Even the guy in the zero should he should have been dead.
U should noe more about 50 cals better then any of us cause of ur military exp. The usaf put 6 50s on everything 4 a reason.
-
Originally posted by SgtDibs
How often do you fly 51-D's. Not much I'm sure. A 50 cal is a 50 cal. A short burst in a wing or rudder should be enough to cripple or destroy. Doesn't happen. I'm not the greatest dogfighter but as Popoeye say's " I's Knows what I's knows" Think if AH made it as effective as it should be, everybody would be in a 51.
:D
I fly 51s a lot. My squad is based on the 4TH FG, which flew P-47s early and transitioned to P-51s. WHile we dont have "rules" liimiting our planes, we're really attached to our stable of historic skins.....
And we do not have problems with the 50s.
You may "know what you know," but the 50s work jsut they way they're supposed to, and they're deadly if used right. When you hit a mving target with a kinetic round like the M2, you will punch a hole.. and thats it. To critacally damage an aircraft built with redundancies, you need to put a number of rounds IN THE SAME PLACE. The 50cal will not rip a plane part off with a single hit sprite, but if you put 5-6 on the SAME HIT ZONE that part will be gone.
Although you discoutned it, you've already been given the correct answer.....CONVERGENCE. If you hti your target at the same range as your bullets meet at a point, you will destroy whatever that point touches. If you dont, the burst needs to be longer since bullets are being spread out over several damage areas...or you're only hitting iwth half your bank of guns.
If you have convergence set at a long distance (like 500 METERS, almost 1/3 mile) remeber that the kineteic energy decreases with range and you will do less damage per bullet.
On the other hand, with 4x50s in a P-51B, I've made targets outright explode with a 0.25 sec burst -- essentialy a squirt -- jsut by hitting the enemy in an important area exactly at convergence.
As a pony pilot, I know what I knows too.
-
Originally posted by bkbandit
...snip....
ANother fight was wit a zero, i came in on his top left and drew a start line from has left wing through the cockpit all the way down the right wing. Even the guy in the zero should he should have been dead.
...snip....
And here's an excellent example. By stitching the hits all along the target from side to side, the damage was spread out over a large number of damage areas. No single area had enough hits to take the damage over the failure threshold.
So this was not a failure of the gun, but of the hit pattern.
Only a very few guns (like the german 30mm and the russian 37mm) can rip imporatnt structures off with a single flash.
-
Aint nuthin porked about the 50cals in any plane. Set em up right, and use em right, then they're the shredders of all they're pointed at. You have to learn to concentrate the 'stream' at a point for 1/2 second or so and they'll tear planes to bits.
-
So the spits wings are weaker then the zeros wings. The spit kill was pretty much a snap shot. The zero was a line of flashes not 4 5 pings across but a solid line from tip to tip. And he was pretty close between 200 and 400. He take at LEAST 6 hit in his cockpit alone. Ill watch the same 2 planes in a pacific war documentary and 5 hits to the body and the zero goes on fires. I mean he should have had some damage at least.
-
The guns are fine. I can cut a plane in half with only a few pings and then other days I can empty the full clip and have the guy fly away. What you may be seeing is the ruber bulets syndrom (that does not exist).
In the case they ruber bulets do exist, it is your fault, your ISVs, or your PC. Get a new ISV a new computer and try to understand what you see.
If you think thats BS, you may want to try and eliminate all non needed processes/services on your computer and maybe lower your resolution.
If all fails, then it is net lag
-
"How often do you fly 51-D's. Not much I'm sure"
...Ok, lets try it this way.
"Is it just me or is the 50 cals on a P51-D useless"
Its just you. :D
-
I am amazed at how much knowledge that is spread on one of these type posts. Other than the smart azzes, it's pretty helpful. Thanks for those that contributed something of value. o.k. Skuzzy, give us the real deal....
:D
-
I dunno... I kinda agree about the 51's 50cals just from personal experience. I fly alot of 6x50 birds, have convergence set on all of em to 275, but, for whatever reason, it just *seems* like they're deadlier on a Corsair or Hellcat then a 51.
There are so many variables and it's probably just something that I'm doing wrong or different, even slightly so. Still, are there any other explanations besides just human error to account for this? I'd think that if convergence is 275 on all of em, if you hit in the same place, they'd all be as deadly. But could any difference be attributed to wing structure/gun placement? I wouldn't think there would be, but maybe a gun expert could explain why/why not?
-
Where are you people getting these results? :huh
I occasionly fly the 51 when Im going to go into a hairy situation and need to be able to dive without compression and have speed. Of course I dont fire until im within 400 and 400 being the farthest out a I fire. I need maybe 25-50 total rounds the most to knock down a fighter. Sometimes if my aim is off that night 75-100 total. For a buff need between 25-100 total rounds as I aim for cockpit and buff goes poof immediately. If my aim is off maybe 150 rounds total.
-
The guns seem inconsistent. I give a cosair a quick snap shot and take the wing off and then i run them up a 47 and take one wing off and the rudders in one of those nose up and cant see the target shots. But then i hav to beat the hell out of other planes to take them down.
A gun expert or a ww2 historian would be able to explain the problem, i mean i watch documentarys with the gun cams and those 50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier. In the pacific it was just 5 hits and u got a burnin zero. I just feel that the guns need to be stepped up in power, im not askin for them to be as powerful as 6 hispanos but powerful enuff so that the guys fightin u dont say "well it just has 50 cals" (i have heard this before).
SGt these message boards are very helpful, just those couple of smart tulips with nothin better to do ruin it.
-
You contradict yourself. You say:
Originally posted by bkbandit
The guns seem inconsistent. I give a cosair a quick snap shot and take the wing off and then i run them up a 47 and take one wing off and the rudders in one of those nose up and cant see the target shots. But then i hav to beat the hell out of other planes to take them down.
And then go on to say:
Originally posted by bkbandit
A gun expert or a ww2 historian would be able to explain the problem, i mean i watch documentarys with the gun cams and those 50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier. In the pacific it was just 5 hits and u got a burnin zero. [/B]
So you accept that any particular projectile can have quite different effects on the things it hits depending on how well armoured/resistant it was built. I think this is modelled sufficiently in AH2.
When you say "50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier" is asking for a change to the damage model, not to the 'power' of the virtual 50calibre round. In fact a 50cal round does not have any inherent 'power' as they dont explode. They have no internal or latent force except for their inertia from being shot out a gun which is their weight plus their speed at impact. So what you are really asking for IS a change in the damage model.
To a point i agree the damage model could be enhanced to add things like parasitic drag from bullet holes and damaged aircraft panels etc. At the moment i dont believe thats modelled.
Originally posted by bkbandit
I just feel that the guns need to be stepped up in power, im not askin for them to be as powerful as 6 hispanos but powerful enuff so that the guys fightin u dont say "well it just has 50 cals" (i have heard this before).
[/B]
I dont think making them more 'powerfull' is needed. They are PLENTY effective enough if used correctly. If they were anymore 'powerfull', i think you'd get a whole lot more whining about them being 'over-powered' and 'uber' than if we leave them as they are.
-
I can't comment on AH as my interest in the subject is historical, but it sounds as if what is happening parallels RL. When bullets hit a plane, all sorts of variable effects come into play. Many bullets will simply pass through non-vital areas, just leaving neat .50 cal holes and doing no significant damage. Many others will be on target to hit something vital but will be deflected by the aircraft's structure or equipment (like oxygen bottles) and pass out of the plane again. Others will get tumbled as they pass through the plane's structure and will hit an armour plate side-on, so won't penetrate.
For all of these reasons it sometimes happened that a pilot would virtually shred his opponent without being able to shoot him down. The next time, his first bullet fired might hit something vital and bring down the plane immediately. That's the way it went - there was a lot of chance involved.
I don't know how well AH models RL. In RL, most fighter pilots never shot down anything, ever, which suggests that it's too easy in sims. OTOH, I don't doubt that lots of sim flying hones shooting skills in a way that WW2 training methods couldn't match. It would be interesting to get the views of an RL WW2 fighter pilot on the sim, that's the only way you're likely to get at the answer.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
-
Just FYI, Bandit and Dibs, TOny Williams has literally written the book on aircraft weaponry -- more than once. (Check out Rapid Fire: the development of automantic cannons, machine guns, and their ammunition (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1840374357/sr=1-1/qid=1145529138/ref=sr_1_1/102-2605094-0904114?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books), Jane's Ammunition Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0710626851/sr=1-6/qid=1145529158/ref=sr_1_6/102-2605094-0904114?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books) , Flying guns of the modern era (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1861266553/sr=1-1/qid=1145529158/ref=sr_1_1/102-2605094-0904114?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books), and Flying Guns of WW1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1840373962/sr=1-2/qid=1145529138/ref=sr_1_2/102-2605094-0904114?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books) for starters.)
His website and published writings are a gold standard for aircraft armament. Take what he says very, very seriously, because he is NOT some intardnet know it all -- and he's got enough class that he wouldnt throw his weight around to impress you.
Tony-- it occurs to me that there may also be a less flattering reason sim pilots get many more kills than in real life. We see FAR more enemies than the average RL pilot would, many of our opponents have little concept of combat maneuvering or effective teamwork, and especially the enemies arent nearly as worried about staying alive as a real pilot would be.
-
Originally posted by bkbandit
So the spits wings are weaker then the zeros wings. The spit kill was pretty much a snap shot. The zero was a line of flashes not 4 5 pings across but a solid line from tip to tip. And he was pretty close between 200 and 400. He take at LEAST 6 hit in his cockpit alone. Ill watch the same 2 planes in a pacific war documentary and 5 hits to the body and the zero goes on fires. I mean he should have had some damage at least.
No, not so much that the wings are weaker, jsut more likely that the hts were concentrated. Your snap shot likely landed multiple pings in the same damage zone....and thats an important concept in understandign how AH models damage.
Each aircraft is divided into a large numebr of invisible "hit boxes". Some of these are connected to critical systems, like an airelon, a fuel tank, or a radiator, that cause specific system loss or a fire. Others are structural, like a wing section or the empennage (the tail/stabilizer package).
The game keeps track of each hit box seperately. Partial damage is NOT efective -- in order for that small section of wing or fuselage to hinder flight, the total damage has to exceed the hit box' limit. Once that threshold is passed, the damage -- wether its a chunk of wing, an airelon, or a fire generation section (fuel line or unsealed tank --like the early japanese planes had) -- takes effect and the flight capacity degrades.
So, if you spread hits among several boxes, you wont see damage.
Incidentally, Bandit, the cockpit is the one area that has a small enough threshoild to cause plane death with a single ping. One mean but enoyable trick is to get your parachuted pilot to the hangar or runway, and use the 45 to shoot at the pilots as enemy planes appear. Its purely a "one shot, one kill" exercise. In the air, a cockpit hit makes the plane explode and teh pilot immediately go to the tower.
So your experience with "5-6" hits in the cockpit area is probably an example of combat adrenaline cahnging perception. Every single time I've seen someone have similar "no fair" complaints in AH, but with a film to back it up, analysis has shown that the hits were not as numerous or as well placed as teh pilot remembered.
Secondly, about the film clips on TV -- dont forget the concept of "selection bias." Of all the guncamera films to see, the ones with dramatic results are far more likely to get on the tube. So, even if "every one" shows a flaming zeke -- there are probably hundreds that showed flashes without a kill, and those wont ever end up being viewed by a national audience.
-
I think Tony's post does this topic justice.
It's alot of chance (especially if you aim at center mass, like others stated).
Sometimes, a 25 round burst will tear your opponent's tail off, sometimes it will leave him with a few holes and nothing more.
For me, I find I get more kills in MG only planes versus Cannon/MG planes. Why? Maybe because of Rate of Fire. Maybe I havent honed my Cannon trajectory skills.
Regardless, the .50 Cals in game are extremely effective, especially at ranges of 400 and closer. Heck, Ive ripped a 262's tail clean off with a 40 round burst from 600 out as he was running. Other times, I cant bring a lowly LA or Yak down without firing over 10 bursts of 25-50 rounds of ammo at him.
Use the 50 Cals where they are most effective...in a saw like manner, aiming at SPECIFIC parts of the aircraft, at ranges where you can most easily get all your guns CONVERGING ON THE SAME POINT.
Good luck.
-
As far as pure hitting power is concerned, the U.S. .50 cal is actually more powerful in AH than in real life. I did some testing of fighter weapons by seeing how many rounds it would take to kill a fighter hangar. I then weighted the numbers (using the U.S. .50 as "1") and compared them to the numbers from Tony Williams' article on WWII Fighter Armament (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm). The results were that an AH .50 is roughly 1/3 as powerful as a 20mm Hispano, while in real life the .50 was more like 1/4 as powerful. Comparison of all the AH Fighter Weapons can be found here (http://www.netaces.org/ahweapons/roundpwr.html).
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Tony-- it occurs to me that there may also be a less flattering reason sim pilots get many more kills than in real life. We see FAR more enemies than the average RL pilot would, many of our opponents have little concept of combat maneuvering or effective teamwork, and especially the enemies arent nearly as worried about staying alive as a real pilot would be.
Why, thanks for your kind remarks - you'll get me all embarrassed :o
I'm sure you are right about the above, and I could add some more possible reasons: in a sim, you aren't jammed into a cramped and vibrating cockpit, being subject to rapid, violent and random changes of G force and, above all, sick with heart-pounding terror at the prospect of imminent (and possibly very nasty) death. Not the best circumstances in which to be coolly concentrating on what you're doing.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
-
Originally posted by Tony Williams
I don't know how well AH models RL. In RL, most fighter pilots never shot down anything, ever, which suggests that it's too easy in sims.
Exactly. Not only it is possible to hit people while twisting and turning from 10 football fields away (15 in the case of buffs) but this is also software (not real life). All software has bugs (we refer to them as net lag here)
So, not only it is too easy, it is also not consistant, it does not simulate real life (bulets geting through or hiting armor plate, etc), and it does not simulate real life fighting (I am willing to bet that 51s did not stall fight spitVs 10 feet of the floor).
However, it is fun.
-
Best advice I ever got was stick the prop right in the cockpit with them before you pull the trigger - then you are pretty much assured of a killing shot.
2nd - Learn to shoot at your Convergence. Go offline and practice shooting at your convergence at all angles. Start the range close and work out wards to about 400 yards. I have seen guys in my squads regularly get kills at these ranges because they learned to shoot a target to lead him where all the bullets of the 6 guns converge at a single point. Very few aircraft will stand up to a 6 gun bust of .50 cals to a concentrated point.
!
-
50 cal seem about right - I've seen the film Tremors II so I know what I'm talking about.
If you start lobbing 37 or 30mm about you'll really learn the art of frustration/chance as the plane which was one huge hit sprite a second earlier promptly flys off leaving you gnawing at your Saitek.
-
Another point to bear in mind is that, when tested, the average WW2 fighter pilot's ability to judge distance and lead angles was found to be absolutely atrocious. I have no doubt that enough time on a realistic sim would have considerably improved this.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
-
Having actually fired a 50 cal at human and metal objects in Vietnam, I think my experiance with the deadly end of a 50 cal round has effected my thought process on the caliber. I should keep in mind that this is simulated and death here has no real no meaning. I have read Tonys book and I have to say I am honored that he took the time to express his expert view.
For the rest of you guys...thanks for the input.
:aok
-
well... bk im betting you did not make a solid line but made hits enough to line up in a line but it probably being like 10 shots total for it is almost im possible for you in a 51 and the zero turning and you spray and pray him wing tip to wing tip but yet what im guessing it was like D100 and you were only hitting with like 1 or 2 guns but yet why a spit goes down easier cuz you probably BnZ Spray'd and Pray'd and managed to get like 25 rounds or so in one spot with all guns thus blowing him to who knows what. But yet the Spit16 is not a dweeb plane but it should be perked so if it is a plane for noobs why are you getting killed so much by it:lol I meen just because its uber doesn't meen you shouldn't be able to beat it often for this game is realy about the pilots skill.
Edit: Bkbandit what is your in game name for your forum name show's you haven't flown in the MA once do you fly in H2H or something.:huh
-
when i attacked the zero it was flat and level, i came from his high 8 o clock and took a nice slow slash across the top(i guess he was asleep at the wheel). When i fought the spit i was flyin level with him at his 3 oclock and he turned right and crossed my face and he gave me a flap shot at him. Who said i got shot down by spit 16s, im just tired of seeing them. I wish i had the film for these. I fly a different name(u noe this already) and like to keep wat happens in the forum separte from the game. If u really want to figure it out im in stuck in h2h currently, it wont be hard to figure out who i am.
Alot of good information. I mean gun coverages and gunnery skills or whats going to bring things down. I have been puting in more time with 50s and sometimes the guns surprise me and just cut a tail or wing off or even just blow him up with the first burst. But u got those couple of times were u just chase a guy down and have to give him a shower of 50 cals before he goes down.
I mean u got alot of guys with alot knowledge on the subect. Tony williams, hammer , and a man that used the gun in combat. I gets no better then this. Sgt i guess a story of u shootin up a car or other vehicle with the .50 would be good piece of information(if it doesnt bother u to post it). Regardless anything alot of great information, i learned alot.
-
another thing to try, and i'm not sure I know how to explain this...
if you really wanna damage 'em, you have to concentrate your fire at one single spot on the nme plane.
So for example when you were diving in on the zeke, you were probably pulling up on your j/s, so the bullets were spread out all over the airframe, and doing little damage. If you time it when you inin the nme, and keep your joystick lvl for a second or two when firing, all the bullets hit one spot and do some pretty major damage. To pull this off, you should aim slightly infront of the nme, so when you shoot, they fly into the bullets that are concentrated in one spot. Same thing with the snapshot you described.
I'm sure y'all can describe this better than I.... So please, chime in.
-
A 50 cal round would severly damage you just by passing you by, If a round went by your neck from say 5-7 inches away, it would more than likely damage it if not actually break it.
Useless trivia I know, but just thought I'd chip in...
-
Gunning like so much else here in AH is extremely accurately.
The caliber of the gun and the convergence settings are only the begining of the damage modelling process.
The damage inflicted also depends upon RELATIVE MOVEMENT and IMPACT.....
That is:
Hit a B24 wing until it breaks off. Try it offline with the drones. Hit it while following it on its six. Then hit its wing head on while its flying into you, you will find some significant difference.
Online you can get a buddy to fly straight and level. Now get him to go at 200mph and shoot from 200 behind while you are closing at 300mph.
Now next time same setup, u fly around at 200mph and ask your buddy to fly past you. When he reaches 200 fire at him and see the difference. Damage inflicted depends upon the impact of the rounds. Impact decreases with reduced closing velocity and even further when the nme is pulling away.
-
Originally posted by Hawco
A 50 cal round would severly damage you just by passing you by, If a round went by your neck from say 5-7 inches away, it would more than likely damage it if not actually break it.
Useless trivia I know, but just thought I'd chip in...
all true ya know it will kill you without even touching you.