Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on October 13, 2000, 06:36:00 AM
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Heck of a day yesterday....
Looks like we may be in for something here. Last time the US backed Israel whole hearted in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Arab countries united against us and gave us the gas shortage of '73. With oil at record highs, looks like we are headed that way again. Both candidates stating during the last debate that they were pro Israeli (both shooting for the Jewish vote) didn't help the situation but as it stands now, the terrorist attack on the USS Cole was premeditated and planned out in advance. I think Clinton created more harm than good with his so called peace talks. IMO, he doesn't have the depth of understanding of the conflict there and was only trying to create another "legacy". Clinton said the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ``is one of the greatest tragedies and most difficult problems of our time. But it can be solved.'' Why does he feel the US has to solve the world's problems? I get the feeling they like to fight over there. What else do they have to do?? What else do they know? They have an AK-47 thrust into their hands by the time they are in grade school and taught to be martyrs. Strap a bomb on your butt, jump into a crowded bus and go to Allah... Those screens with the soldiers getting beat turned my stomach. I think the Israelis retribution was restrained given the fact they notified the complexes before they were bombed to minimize injuries. What about the media making a big deal about Gore’s VP choice, Lieberman, being Jewish? I don’t think that did anything but stir it up more. Just heard they bombed the British Embassy in Yemen. Maybe if the US throws enough $$ Arafats way, he speak out and try to do something. I just wonder how much control he really has over “his people”. I can remember when he was nothing more than a terrorist himself. Now he’s considered a world leader... Thoughts, comments??
Eagler
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This is not an easy one.
I have decided not to take _any_ side in this conflict.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Well, FWIW, I think Clinton did a good job in the Middle East. Must be very frustrating to see years of hard work go down the drain.
The US has interests in the region, and also a quite potent Jewish minority at home, so I don't think isolationism is possible. At the same time there is a growing Arab minority as well.
CNN refused to show the pictures of what happened at the police station. An Italian station did air it though; bodies thrown out of windows, dragged around, one set on fire.
Then again, the Palestinian police apparently did what they could to protect the Israelis from the mob, but were overwhelmed.
With the opposition he has in Israel, Barak has only one choice if he wants to survive politically - the normal Israeli one, i.e retaliation. Palestinian officials know this as well as anyone. The mob might not have, but the fact remains that official Palestine radio stations have incited the crowds. Mob violence was just a question of time.
Still, all is not lost. The Israeli attacks were very limited, and it strikes me as odd as Arafat and other Palestinian leadres describe them as "all out war against the defenseless Palestinan people".
This time, I fear, the Palestinians took too big a bite, and forced the Israelis to respond. And unfortunately, all goodwill is lost now. Israel states that Arafat has the power to call a stop to the violence any seconand this I believe is simplistic and untrue. He has some control, but far from full control. The Palestinians say that they'll keep fighting til all Israeli troops leave the area - and they won't, since the Iraelis want the violence to stop before doing so. A Gordian knot of the serious kind.
The cowardly strike on a US ship and the bombing of the British ambassady are probably related - extremists trying to pour fuel on the fire. But, US interests is at stake, and once again I don't think isolationism will solve the problem - the US consumes vast quantities of oil and therefore the Middle East is of immediate strategic interest. That's probably why Clinton thinks the US has an interest in the area.
Yes, Arafat going from terrorist to freedom fighter was an interesting development. Just like with Barak, he too has opposition in his ranks. This damned question is so hard to deal with because of these extremists in both camps - common sense is ruled out, compromises hard to get and so forth.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Arafat just doesn't know how to take yes for an answer. Isrealis really bent over backward trying to negotiate with the palestinians. The deep down truth of the matter is Palestinians won't be happy untill Isreal disappears. They don't want coexistance . Now Arafat is gonna go back and preach the lie that they can purge the holy land of jews by means other than negotiation. Well what we are seeing now is the alternative to negotiation, which is what he chose over peacefull coexistance.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Well, FWIW, I think Clinton did a good job in the Middle East. Must be very frustrating to see years of hard work go down the drain.
You mean months, don't you? Have you forgotten that Clinton revived the 'peace plan' in order to establish his ego-needing 'legacy'? It was at best a weak attempt on his part to get the two sides talking again.
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Ok, i know i will be burned as witch, but i have to spend few words on this question.
I think this is not an easy one, this will be one of the conflicts more hard to solve in the actual world's situation.
First of all we (western countrys) have a biased view of the question, for an old and a new reasons.
The old one is the heritage of long century of antisemitism in Europe, culminated in the holocaust, and ALL cultures in Euro (and someway in US too) feel guilty of it and have a biased perception of the Israeli state.
We have the tendence to forgive some expantionism and some nationalism (sionism in this case) expecially of the extreme right of the Israeli politic, because we are afraid to be accused to be antisemith.
The new reason is a simple one, the palestinians made a big mistake to use terrorism to defend their reasons, and Killing innocents is not tollerable by any means.
This had produced in our vision (pheraps too black and white) the feeling of a bad people when thinking of palestinians.
About the terroristic past of Arafat, dont forget Moshe dayan and Rabin himself, they were terrorists at theyr times.
What is happening now is the bad think, the extremists of both sides have stepped in and pushed out the moderates, and this will be completely destructive for the slow and very difficult process to find a solution.
The point is, IMHO, here nobody is right and nobody is wrong, both parts are guilty of some bad thinks, and both parts are victims.
Sadly, at the end who pay is always the innocent, like some poor Israelian killed in a bus, or some poor palestinian child killed in a road. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Two child fighting in an alley, you really care who started?
Or your wish is first to stop the fight?
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Both sides are getting what they asked for.
Also it looks like Palestinians have better armament than in days of Intifada. IMHO Israel is still occupying parts of Lebanon and Syria and in that case it's only reasonable if PLO and Hamas are trying to assure Israel to back off from ground they dont own.
They could solve this conflict peacefully but both sides still have some "warlords" and as long as these guys are in power theres no hope about lasting peace.
If they only could keep religion out of policy....
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A very, very complicated situation indeed...
The BBC and independant news services did not show explicitly the killing of the soldiers. They did show a shot looking into the police station window (after the mob had climbed in). I'm always more disturbed by implied violence, rather than explicit... the flailing arms and movement in the window was more than enough for me.
Its a shame we need oil from the mid-East, otherwise we could wash our hands of the whole region, like Africa. At least that's how the politicians would like it.
I haven't got answer for the situation as a whole, but the Israeli opposition must bear some of the responsibility for this latest crisis.
I think Clinton's efforts in the peace process have been very commendable. He got further with the process than anybody else and he recognises that stability in the Mid. East means stability in oil prices (a neccesity for the Western world).
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Both Isreal and Palestine have to step up to the plate here and be the leader.
How can you say Clinton made things worse with Camp David? Israel and Palestine had never been so close to peace. No other president has came so close. So your republizised statement that Clinton made things worse cannot be supported.
Why should the US take part in the peace process? Because the US is a part of the world, like it or not. Every country on the earth has the resonsibility to keep peace. Your little slot of land is no more important than Israel's or Palestines. Your lives are no more important than the lives being lost overseas. Every other country in the U.N. proudly reaches out to the world in times of need. Leave it up to you to say "no, we don't wanna help, it's your problem".
Eagler, how can you say that they want to fight over there? Have you ever been there? I have. This war has been going on since 1948 (actually, long before that), it is a lot more complicated than them being angry at each other and throwing rocks. What a plainly stupid comment regarding their upbringing. That is so wrong and you've obviously allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the western sterotype of the Arabic people.
Arabs are among some of the nicest and well reserved people on earth. They are also some of the most passionate. "They", as you say, are not brought up to carry AK-47s, strap a bomb to thier chest and cry Allah. What a distasteful and plainly uneducated comment. I can tell you've never been there. Did you watch James Bond for your education or something? Geez.
Both sides are at fault here. The Palestianians were very wrong murdering those soilders and those individuals should be held accountable. You also cannot forget the fact that over 100 Palestianians have died through out these past 2 weeks from Israeli gunfire. Many of those deaths were childern under the age of 15!
What I am worried about is the possible action being taken by the neighbouring Arab countries. Syria, Lebennon, Egypt, Iraq. These countries are no pushovers, especially Egypt. Hopefully it wont come to this.
And I am going to Egypt again in March. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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If I've read this correctly - USS Cole bombing was planned months in advance - I think it's way too much of a coincidence with the very recent upsurge in violence.
Peace in the Middle East? Hmmm... With Arab children being brought up brainwahsed into Israel as a source of all evil, with most religious leaders trigger-happy to call for a Jihad against all non-believers? Hmmmm...
Both sides are at fault here. The Palestianians were very wrong murdering those soilders and those individuals should be held accountable. You also cannot forget the fact that over 100 Palestianians have died through out these past 2 weeks from Israeli gunfire. Many of those deaths were childern under the age of 15!
Oh please... You make it look like bad Israely soldiers attacked a school bus or something. It is the same mob that stormed that police station, threw rocks and missiles etc, right? I'm surprised that number of deaths is as low as it is after all that was happening there. Keep in mind that Israely army is probably the most combat ready army in the world, armed to the teeth with first rate infantry weaponry, tanks, planes - you name it. It's exceptionally well trained and ready to defend their own motherland.
55 years ago the Jews decided that their nation needed that thing - the motherland - after thousands of years of persecution by just about every nation. They got there, they settled and tough luck to those who happened to occupy the same piece of land - wrong place, wrong time. The fought for their right to be there - agains many other armies at the time and they are there to stay. I'm not saying it's a right or wrong way of doing things - one just needs to finally accept that they are there and deal with the new situation like normal people do.
(p.s. Israel is by no means whiter than white but their army has somehow been managing a very restrained response to all provocations so far)
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-13-2000).]
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"With Arab children being brought up brainwahsed into Israel as a source of all evil"
That's a pretty hefty generlization. And it's wrong.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
(p.s. Israel is by no means whiter than white but their army is somehow managing a very restrained response to all provocations so far)
hundred people killed is "restrained response" ?
LOL
Nuk'em !!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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This is not what I wanted to see:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/13/mideast.violence.04/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/13/mideast.violence.04/index.html)
Click on the video of protests in Cairo, Egypt.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Naso -
a. it's not funny;
b. it is a restrained response if you take into account that it is well armed/trained infantry being pelted with stones. One magazine emptied into that crowd could have left dozens dead. It (thank God) has not happened yet.
igloo -
I know how you view this kind of things - read enough of your posts and arguments. I respect your views but do not agree with them. Is that OK?
Have a nice weekennd everyone!
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Naso -
a. it's not funny;
b. it is a restrained response if you take into account that it is well armed/trained infantry being pelted with stones. One magazine emptied into that crowd could have left dozens dead. It (thank God) has not happened yet.
Have a nice weekennd everyone!
Ok, i was provoking hardly, but...
It happened.
They emptied some magazine into the crowd.
They launch rockets from heli.
And, as i recall, the well armed/trained army were supposed to leave the zone one year ago.
Maybe i am naive, but i simpatize with unarmed people vs. a well armed/trained occupation army, even if they launch stones.
Maybe some racial memories at work in this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Have a nice weekend you too (you dont participate the scenario?).
Sad is the fact someone, for human stupidity, will not have a nice weekend.
I still have in my eyes the kid dying in his father's hand.
I hope for you, you will be always on the rear side of a well trained/armed army.
The front side is'nt funny.
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I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I agree that all attempts to broker a peace in the middle east are commendable.
The instability and violence there are disturbing, and the effects are being felt all over the world. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I'm ashamed that my country has supported and continues to support Israel.
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Quote:
"I'm ashamed that my country has supported and continues to support Israel."
Please explain why, Funked. The US is the only nation in the world that will go to the mat for Israel. Without US support of Israel, the Nazi Holocaust becomes a mere prelude to what would happen to the Jews in Israel. Don't tell me "it ain't so" because that's Bulls***.
I agree that the Palestinians should have a Homeland, but the main obstacles to that eventuality are the Palestinian's own Arab "brothers", who cynically use them for their own agendas.
I am shocked and dismayed by your position.
Cabby
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Funked,
It’s like you said before. The barbarians are killing the barbarians. Only fools would step between them.
This is an ancient hatred here, once again with a strong religious element. There will be no reason. (IMHO, there will be no way for a country founded in part on religious tolerance to EVER understand the situation.)
At best another temporary, uneasy “peace” will result.
While I am not particularly proud of the US relationship to Israel (it has gone far beyond guaranteeing their survival and into uncalled for anti-Arab bias IMHO), I do feel some sort of Israel has a right to exist as a “homeland” for the Jews. Without US support that nation would never have lasted this long.
There’s the dilemma; I feel it’s right for them to have a homeland but clearly it will be a never-ending conflict. Were we right to ever become involved? Was it not always an impossible hope?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-13-2000).]
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Sorry, but what the Israelis have done to the people in that region over the last 55 years is disgusting and is little better than what the Nazis did to European Jews in the 30's and 40's.
The fact that any of my tax dollars go to help Israel makes me sick. And sadly billions of dollars are sent that way annually.
The Israelis have as much right to a homeland as do the American Indians. How many of you Americans would support a movement to evict you from your home, because the land you live on was once owned by some American Indian guy's great-great-great-great-grandfather?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-13-2000).]
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The US should condemn Israeli actions in this latest bout of violence. Imagine if our troops had machine gunned civil rights protesters in the '60s.
The Israelis started this, then the Palestinians over-reacted.
Originally reported by BBC News:
...The spark that lit the tinderbox was a visit on 28 September by Ariel Sharon, leader of the Israeli Likud opposition, and a figure of loathing for most Palestinians, to a disputed holy site in East Jerusalem known to Arabs as Haram al-Sharif - or Noble Sanctuary - and to Jews as Temple Mount...
Condemning Israel would serve the following purposes:
Let the Palestinians and Arabs know that the United States is interested in a fair peace. This would allow us to continue to have standing as a moderator, as it is we're losing it because of how pro Israeli we are.
Let Israel know how upset we are to see soldiers using automatic weapons on boys and young men using stones. Israel can't cut ties with us because they'll be overwelmed without our support. Israel has to eat any crow we give them.
We shouldn't withdraw support, just condemn their actions.
This is very sad and disappointing.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-14-2000).]
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Funked:
Your statements are totally out of line and your comparison is ludicrous. I won't discuss the issue any further with you.
BTW, i am proud of America's support of Israel. That doesn't mean i ignore the Palestinian people's plight either.
Cabby
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I saw once a TV-document about Israel and in that film some Israeli soldiers speaked just like "Hitler-Jugend" 60 years ago. Only difference was they were talking about Arabs. Very sad.
Well maybe that film was produced by "AntiSemitist forces" and was pure propaganda. Propably not.
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The attack on the Cole was not necessarily a "cowardly terroristic" attack. Didn't we the almighty US of A send our "cowardly terroristic" bombers over Yemen years back and plaster a factory that we *thought* was manufacturing chemical/biological weapons for terrorists but turned out to be a simple pharmaceutical manufacturer? Who are the real terrorists in that region? Why aren't those bomber crews up on international murder charges? Oh thats right, the US can do no wrong, and if we do we announce to the world our deepest sorrow for the most unfortunate incident and announce sweeping revisions in our intelligence community to prevent such further tragedies. Its amazing that an attack like this can happen and within days or weeks the guilty parties will be ferreted out and targeted for military reprisal but we can do nothing against the domestic terrorism being conducted by the leadership of the various drug cartels safely tucked away in central/south america.
We should change to the United States of Hypocrisy. I love my country, I loathe my government.
T
A slave of the United States Federal Government.
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Staga:
there is one small difference though. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations who in the past have tried to eradicate Israel from the map. Once, israel attacked in a "preemptive strike", but other than that, it has some nasty neighbors. Not talking about the people but the political environment. Anyone who has been a guest in an Arab home will have learned that they extend the utmost hospitality to their guests. But, they are as extreme when dealing with their enemies.
Me, I support the secular Jews, but not the religious ones. For all I care, they can die in horror just as much as the Muslim extremists. The only thing they add to the situation is grief and pain, using religion as a smoke screen for ignorance and hatred. Interestingly enough, the average secular Israeli family has 2 kids, whereas the average orthodox (fancy name for fanatic) breeds like rabbits. So soon, Israel will be a theocracy and not a democracy if this continues.
Personally, I think Israel has showed great restraint - it has fired upon mobs (of the same kind that killed the ISraeli soldiers) and unfortunately killed a lot of people. But, the killing has been unintentional. And the way the choppers were employed clearly showed that it was not an "all out war against the Palestinian people". Believe me; the Israelis are bad mofo's in terms of military potential and could easily send the Palestinians back to the stone age or make the area glow after a few nukes.
On the other hand, their general handling of the Palestinians during the last few decades have been totally unacceptable. These people don't see a way out, and rightly so are upset about it.
One must also ask oneself what the hell all those kids are doing throwing rocks and beign part of a mob? I you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen - actions HAVE consequences and risks, in this case deadly. If you go skydiving and die, don't blame the ground for smashing you. If you throw rocks at a defense force known to respond harshly, don't be suprised when they do.
Not saying it is RIGHT, it probably ain't, but anyone with some BRAINS can figure this one out. Throw rock, they shoot, they might hit you, you might die. Right or wrong. Now, do I throw a rock or not? Individual decision.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Santa, I do believe there is a "conservative" streak in you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by DmdBT:
The attack on the Cole was not necessarily a "cowardly terroristic" attack. Didn't we the almighty US of A send our "cowardly terroristic" bombers over Yemen years back and plaster a factory that we *thought* was manufacturing chemical/biological weapons for terrorists but turned out to be a simple pharmaceutical manufacturer? Who are the real terrorists in that region? Why aren't those bomber crews up on international murder charges? Oh thats right, the US can do no wrong, and if we do we announce to the world our deepest sorrow for the most unfortunate incident and announce sweeping revisions in our intelligence community to prevent such further tragedies. Its amazing that an attack like this can happen and within days or weeks the guilty parties will be ferreted out and targeted for military reprisal but we can do nothing against the domestic terrorism being conducted by the leadership of the various drug cartels safely tucked away in central/south america.
We should change to the United States of Hypocrisy. I love my country, I loathe my government.
T
A slave of the United States Federal Government.
/rant on
If you think those bomber crews that were following orders should be up on murder charges, you have some severe problems bud. Do you think those crews have the ability to say, "well, i don't really think it's a chemical weapons plant so i won't bomb it" ? Have you ever been in a mission briefing before a tactical strike? Do you think they are even told what they are bombing? An order like that would have come from the top, and like the good soldiers they were, they followed orders. With the information they had, they had no MORAL ground to disobey. If they HAD disobeyed, thier careers would have been over and they would probably be summarily dismissed from service. The armed forces that complete those missions have enough to deal with without people like you saying they ought to be on trial for murder for doing thier jobs. If INTEL was wrong, then INTEL is where the problem needs to be fixed. If you don't agree with it, write a letter to your congressman. I hope you don't believe that the sailors who died on the U.S.S. Cole deserved to because we may have made a mistake a few years back trying to prevent chemical weapons from being manufactured. If you do, Go talk to thier families and explain it to them.
/rant off
Sean "Hamish" Webber
U.S. Navy, Active Duty
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Well said Hammish. <S>
DmdBT, you've thrown out the baby with the bath water. And with all due respect, you are teetering on the brink of hypocracy yourself if you dont soon get off the government teat and find a different job. Or at least stop talking about the United States of America as if you were an "American Satan" hating middle eastern fanatic.
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What a complete mess. It would be very dangerous to get involved in this at all and there is no easy answer.
What was the name of the 1918 mandate (equivilent to NATO WWI terms against the Turks) that put Britain in Palestine to try and keep the peace and break up the Turk Empire? (France was given mandate of Syria & ???) I know Britain pulled out in 1948 with all the terrorist uprising and since then Israel have held off all neighbouring Arab countries - Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Palestine etc.
Do Turkey still have any influence over what was the Ottoman (spelling??) Empire? Should NATO (NATO replaced earlier WWI equivilent) get involved since it is related to terms given in the First World War?
What can be done?
Regards
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 10-14-2000).]
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LOL Toad, so there is hope still? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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A fight between two civilisations. Frontline: Palestine, Kosovo, Chechnya.
Choose your side.
According to an interactive vote on radio "Echo of Moscow" 71% of Moscowites support Israel. People say: "I hope OUR army will be successful".
Bloody communists in Duma (Russian parliament) say they support Arabs. Foreign minister avoids peace-talks. I am bored with this regime. Cowards and hypocrites. They forget that Israel was the only country that supported anti-terrorist war in Chechnya...
One of that two guys slaughtered by Arabs was a Russian emigrant. He got married 4 days before...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Yes, Boroda. Israel isn't the only Western Nation with problems dealing with Muslim uprisings. Certainly no one was interested in the Serb's side of the story, even if Milosevic is/was an idiot.
However, Israel-Jew-bashing has always been a popular activity in the world. Events in the Middle East just gives these people an excuse to indulge their feelings.
The U.S. supports one Muslim group after another, yet they still hate/dislike the U.S. This makes me suspect their motives, especially the PLO's. I feel like the U.S. can't win no matter what, sometimes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
BTW, I hope Russia can straighten things out soon. It won't be easy.
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 10-14-2000).]
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Who's bashing Jews?
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Antiterrorist war in Chechnya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)?
Shees...
After how Russians took care of Grozny I dont want to see them start a real war...
Some sorces say over 100,000 died in that "Antiterrorist-war".
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Gunthr... read your post several times and can't make heads nor tails of it... please elaborate.
If you are basing your personal attack on my profile which stated under occupation that I am an "RC flying bum (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)" then let me explain. I just moved my family to MD from GA the first of July and changed my profile to reflect that. Also at that time I took 2 weeks off to be an "RC flying bum" because in the last 3 years I've only had one week of vacation. Sorry I never updated it since.
Also, I stated that I love my country. In fact, I served my country, fought for it, shed blood for it, and lost four friends for it. I just can't stand the condition its in today with the buffoonery leadership and policies in the Federal Govt. As my post was trying to point out (rather unsuccessfully) we will bring the power of our military to bear against any terrorist group in the middle east by violating sovereign countries' airspaces and international rights but we coddle to the corrupt governments of central/south america and push this phony notion that we have a "war on drugs" taking place. Any loss of our service men and women is sad, but its also sad to have so many of our civilians lives ruined and lost by other forms of terrorism. Sorry for not being a chest thumping America is right cheerleader.
Hamish, thanks for your current service to our country. You are right, never should have put that line in there about the crews, I don't blame them nor do I believe the sailors deserved to die.
T
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DmdBT,
Said another way, your post portrays a USA targeting accident as an act of terrorism.
Your verbiage is wayy over the top. You bandy about phrases like:
"Why aren't those bomber crews up on international murder charges?"
and, "Who are the real terrorists in that region?
It sounds like something that would come out of Iraq or Libya.
My comment indicating that you should spit out the Gov't Teat if you despise it so was in reference to your signing yourself "A slave of the Federal Government" I took this to mean that you are employed by the Federal Government, as would most.
I don't mean to make too much of your post, you may not have meant it to sound so strongly anti-American.
<S>
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Leave sounding anti American up to me.
I have a toejamhouse that's older than your country.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Santa that one was GOOD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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...although a bit of a non-sequitur.
BTW, how long till you Danes get indoor plumbing?
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net4/jump.gif)
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Hehheh. I wonder if a Danish two-holer has the clean and simple lines of other Danish furniture??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 10-16-2000).]
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First Finnish "Water-Closet" was built in This castle (http://www.nba.fi/IMG/olavi3.JPG) in late 1400. WC is in one of towers (If remember correctly) and umm.. toejam drops right to the lake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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If you want some real crap-related history, come to sunny old England!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A Mr. Crapper invented the first flushing toilet.
Conisbrough Castle (said to be the resting place of King Arthur and is about 10 miles from this computer) is very, very old (that means 1000 years not 200, my American friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and it has the holes you describe Staga.
See, we invented everything and everything came from Britain! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-16-2000).]
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Notice how the libs contorted the thread, doing what they do best = distort, side-track and confuse the issues.
Eagler
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Question:
What kind of jobs do the Palestinians have that allows them to demonstrate and riot everyday? Seems like the average rioter would be better off in school as they look to be less than 25 years of age. I wonder what kind of respect they would get from the rest of the world if they spent half the energy they use to fuel their hate/riots/demonstrations, constructively.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Conisbrough Castle (said to be the resting place of King Arthur and is about 10 miles from this computer) is very, very old (that means 1000 years not 200, my American friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and it has the holes you describe Staga.
See, we invented everything and everything came from Britain! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-16-2000).]
Ehm... Dowding...
Never been in Pompei?? (79 b.c. = 2079 years ago) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Muhahahaha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I wish the Jews and the Arabs would shut up and come to some kind of ageement---then actually follow it (none of this "promise then do the opposite" that both sides have a habit of doing).
After all that has taken place, there is no "good" and "bad" side. BOTH have a LOT of blood on their hands. Both the Jews and Arabs have committed countless atrocities on each other. Both have deliberately incited violence at times. Both do nothing but blame the other. And, as history proves again and again, blaming does little more than cause more violence.
Neither side is innocent.
In the current conflict, the Arabs have no business butchering Jews and rioting. That does them no good on the international scene, and only hurts the peace they so desperately require. On the other hand, why do the Jews show disdain for Arab life by firing live bullets into the mobs; standard anti-riot gear (rubber bullets, water cannons, etc) would be just as effective at dissapating the crowds.
BOTH sides seem...ahem...stupid. I know it can't be true, but both the Arabs and the Jews act like they WANT to keep fighting. Any small thing, no matter how unimportant, is enough of an excuse for someone to start fighting. Like the Arabs rioting because someone visited a holy site. Or, like the Jews shooting people for throwing rocks. Those are but the weakest excuses for fighting.
If they would only get over their silly revenge policies and live up to an agreement, things might be okay. Unfortunately, that would require them to occasionally forgo revenge, which seems beyond their current temprament. Peace can't last until both sides are willing to work for it and stop the revenge.
Unfortunately, both sides act like they will fight until the other is completely wiped out. Neither side seems overly interested in co-existence; they only pay occasional lip service to it.
As long as the Arabs and Jews over-react and treat the other side like animals, there will be no peace.
Given history as an example, I don't expect peace for a long time.
J_A_B
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Naso, Pompeii? Bah.
(http://www.trueorigins.net/egypt/Trip/khafresnme.jpg)
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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What a weird debate!
Naso - my point was not the oldness of things generally, but crap disposal systems specifically (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Besides, in Scotland there is a settlement that is 10,000 years old or something, and it has an indoor toilet and underground sewage system.
I've been to Pompei, BTW.
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Dowding said:
Naso - my point was not the oldness of things generally, but crap disposal systems specifically.
I understud, but i was pointing that in Pompei there is a crap disposal system and sours, and water in each house, just like today, except electricity (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Amazing engineers.
This engineering was lost in middle age, to be discovered again in late 1700, early 1800.
Since i am very interested in archeology and antropology, can you send me some info on this settlement in scotland?
Must be from early presence in Scotland of Humans.
Good target for some holiday trip.
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Skara Brae?
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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IMHO, there is a "innocent" side in this war and it's Lebanon. Innocent in quotation marks as in near history it's government gave permission to palestinians to strike against Israel from Lebanon's ground.20 years this war has been taken place in Lebanon. Then hezbollah formed to push occupier off the country and if I recall it right, they've swear that war continues as long as there is one jew alive, which makes real peace process difficult. I mean if palestinians and israel end up in some kind of agreement (as we all hope), how about hezbollah, which is quite popular in south-lebanon and now also a member of lebanese government (electoral alliance with amal).
When we're talking about USA's aid to israel,we also must remember, that russians are aiding hezbollah / amal via syria (and iran ?), katjusha rockets and other armament.
StSanta wrote:
"One must also ask oneself what the hell all those kids are doing throwing rocks and beign part of a mob? I you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen - actions HAVE consequences and risks, in this case deadly."
I agree. For the very first day after israeli withdrawal, palestinians has thrown rocks in blue line, every day.Many israeli soldiers has injured. What country can stand that kind of "peace process" long ?
One thing that hold israel for attacking against palestinians with all forces is the fact that israel is civilized state and part of united nations.
Just my few opinions. I don't want to talk about palestinians justifications of israels ground as I don't know that much history.
My intention is not to insult any part of this conflict, if I have, I apologize.
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I think I recall a documentary reagarding Lebanon's state as being much of a Syrian puppet.
No love lost between the Syrians and Israelis, right?
Sad to see that both parts of the conflict are being unreasonable <sigh>
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Anyone else notice the recent slant the media is portraying? Seems they are making Palestine the innocent victim and Israeli the big bad guy. CNN is one of them. Doesn't look good over there for some time to come. The recent Arab meeting didn't do much to help the matter. One big mess which could affect the world's oil supply. Tell me again the argument for drilling for our own oil? Oh yeah, the environment ... What happens to the "environment" when dozens (hundreds?)of oil rigs are set ablaze .. i.e. Desert Storm? They could strangle our military by cutting off their oil better than we were able to do to Germany through all our bombing during WW2.
Eagler
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I haven't noticed that - I've seen reports devoted to the atrocities committed by both sides, like the torture and murder of that Palestinian by the Israeli settlers or the torture and murder of the Israeli soldiers by the Palestinians.
Remember that the current crisis occurred because of the visit of that member of Lekud to that Mosque in Jerusalem. A ridiculous thing to considering the political climate at this time.
Igloo - Skara Brae? I think that is the name of the Scottish settlement.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-24-2000).]
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I've noticed that too, Eagler. I was surprised, when UN judged israel actions against palestinians.Naturally israel has superior army against palestinians but IMO it would be foolishness to not use it when your country is threatened, that's why every country has defence forces, right ? Here in Finland, discussions has been arised about finnish vote for israeli judgement.That wasn't our government official opinion as it was only a finnish New York United Nations section's opinion ! Strange, how some little organisation of finnish can make that big statements without finnish parliament knowing it, oh boy ! There's lots of work, i think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If we think israeli perspective this, it surely won't feel very happy about that arab meeting's resolution. Just think ; little israel country against rich, huge (hostile) arab and muslim countries around it, that's quite "defenceless" situation and if israel allows these attacks without any counteractions, that would make it ridiculous for surrounding countries.
But, on another hand, Dowding is right, this all begun again after that member of lekud visited that mosque. For me, these religious wars are distant thought, I can't understand them at all.
Palestinians has right to have their own country, but I doubt israels tends to give piece of their small land...
These wars has been in mideast for many many years, i remember i read some of it from bible!From generation to generation, it continues and only God knows when it ends. But now, if never, there is possibility to peace, let's all hope that they end up it !
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Oh, after reading all that i wrote, i still can't figure it out, what i ment ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Damn, janneh down and out !
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Oops, one thing came in my mind;
I recall a rumour, where every kid that throw rocks against israel and dies, gains 800$ to his/her family from someone...?
Is this rumour right or wrong ? Uh..!
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I read this post and I can't help but think back to a Rodney Dangerfield movie called "Back to School". Sam Kinison was the History Prof asking a question about one of the more simple events to decifer that century... Vietnam. Its how I will always remember him.
The comanility.. alot of canned answers. If it were this easy.. it would already be figured out.
AKDejaVu